With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
I don't think there is any evidence - maybe Doug Futie? - because these are un-chartered waters with Murray. He's not going to break 5'10", and I'm not sure he's going to be any bigger than 5'9". And I question his arm length and overall body type to endure hits.
So it comes down to breaking all the molds and rolling the dice with a high investment on something this unusual.
I wouldn't want to make that call with any pick in the top 15-20. That's a big miss if he fails to deliver, and gets GMs fired.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
It was part of his contract
I have a different take. Beane out-thought himself. Since he never established himself as a QB in college, he probably didnt worry about what would happen of worst case scenario happened. ANd it did.
I am still a believer that Murray should have never signed that contract to begin with. Its one thing to option, but it really put the A's in a bind. They cant even use that money to sign other players if they wanted.
I am not disagreeing that Murray did whats best for him. But signing that contract and not honoring it is pretty low. And of course thats just my opinion.
What are you guys talking about once you sign a contract Â
I don't see how Murray screwed anyone. Everyone knew the guy might play football. If he told them verbally that he would play baseball and they made a financial commitment in writing based on that, they are fools. They took a risk knowing the situation and it didn't pay off. That's on them.
Similarly, any NFL team drafting Murray also knows he has a lucrative fallback option should the NFL not work out right away. That is something any team drafting him will need to consider when investing a high draft pick in him.
But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I have no idea why you're so vehemently defending the A's right now. They chose to draft and sign him. They knew the risks and those risks were factored into the contract he signed. Murray still has free will and signing a contract doesn't automatically make someone a slave. The advantage the A's had in drafting and signing him was that if Murray decided to play baseball they had the rights to him over the other MLB teams. There was always a risk that he might play football and they took the risk. They will get back the money that was agreed they would get back in the contract if he decided to play football instead. There was no foul play of any sort here on either side (no pun intended). Regardless of what you personally think the word "contract" means or implies, Murray did nothing illegal in any way here.
The A's themselves measured the guy a shade under 5 10. Hard for them to predict the season he had, have NFL people tell them where they think he goes with practically zero gametape, and look at how many first round QB's have that been drafted at that height.
I'm intrigued. I want to see his measurable at the combine.
I’m ready to fall in love with this kid’s nfl future. Fully aware my heart will likely be shattered into a million pieces, I don’t care, I’m ready. If the combine delivers Murray in a positive fashion I’m sending him love notes in class with yes, maybe and no.
he could change a lot in this draft. Vick was 6' 215 lbs and went #1 in his draft. Murray could do the same if he comes in at 5'10 and 195 lbs. with his skill set and interview performance. Another exciting draft year after a shit season. Think we are are turning this ship around.
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Exactly it’s a tiny sample size but both went on the play baseball at some point. Not necessarily “quitting” football but the players that signed in multiple sports ended up playing them.
That Dan Patrick interview did not make him sound like the sharpest tool in the shed. The only other interviews I could see where just some canned answer types that were edited.
That Dan Patrick interview did not make him sound like the sharpest tool in the shed. The only other interviews I could see where just some canned answer types that were edited.
Well yeah for good reason, he was probably told by his agent, etc. not to discuss certain things at that point and Patrick and others just would not drop it. He probably should have declined the interviews.
I've long been a died in the wool proponent of the old school NFL prototype pocket passer. Even guys like Wilson didn't sway me because imo he doesn't have a great arm. As a young man I watched Flutie play at BC and followed his career. He had the it factor with his athletic ability and arm strength but the league wasn't ready for him and didn't know how to use him propwerly. I thought that day may never arrive but it's here. Mahomes has that type of ability and moxie. Now Murray might, just might have it too.
If we go QB with a high 1st Round pick I'd still prefer Haskins as the guy with the better combination of celing and floor. Murray though has entered into the equation for me. There just might be two QB's worthy of our consideration.
Is there something in there that says he specifically WON'T play baseball?
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
Is there something in there that says he specifically WON'T play baseball?
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
He's going to be giving back the money. So if that happens and then he decides he wants to go back to baseball he'd have to crawl back and presumably take a lesser deal.
He's playing football, always has been IMO. He's going to go in the first round and play the sexiest position in sports for a lot more money than he'd be making this year on the A's.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
Exactly, Murray played the game like a savvy businessman. Probably at the advice of his agents on both sides. “Pretend you’re 100% invested in baseball and the Athletics, just in case the football thing doesn’t work out or you change your mind.”
There is no “word for it” contract in any business, let alone one with millions on the table...
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
I agree with this 100%.
IMO, there’s 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
If Tim Tebow can get a legit shot with the Mets post his failed NFL career, you better believe Murray will be able to go back and play baseball later if he wants to.
IMO, there’s 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
I don't believe Oakland took any kind of verbal guarantee. But if they did, then they are stupid.
But again - they clearly thought this could happen, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract they way they did.
Do you think the March 1st date for him to receive the rest of the signing bonus was a mistake? That date was clearly chosen because they would know by then if he would attend the combine.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
we gamble for Murray as QB;
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
No, I'm willing to gamble that he will be our QB of the future. But an Edelman type of career wouldn't be a bad consolation IF it doesn't work out at QB. Not that we need a slot receiver, but it wouldn't be a complete waste of a pick like Flowers or Apple. Again, I doubt Murray accepts any position other than QB.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Seriously? Murray has a decent chance of being a top 4 OVERALL pick, and you're busy wasting people's time with if he falls to the 4th round. Well...thanks for that.
Hey, if Nick Bosa falls to the 5th round, I'd take a shot on him. Quinnen Williams, too. Are we done with the nonsense yet?
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
That’s an interesting tidbit, Rick. The risks associated with Haskins makes me think that trade offer is the best route, although the Cardinals would need to throw in another pick to balance it out.
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
RE: RE: RE: Kyler hired the same agent as Kingsbury Â
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
This is correct. At least Rosen is on tape against NFL teams and survived a brutal year behind that line(durability issue resolved). While I agree with UConn on trying to get him for a 2nd round pick, I would take him for the 6th - he was who I wanted last year.
UConn you cannot say that because he was 10th last year means a 6th this year is over paying, there is no direct correlation. Rosen would easily be the top QB in the draft this year, which means he would be a top 5 pick this year if not #1.
With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
I don't think there is any evidence - maybe Doug Futie? - because these are un-chartered waters with Murray. He's not going to break 5'10", and I'm not sure he's going to be any bigger than 5'9". And I question his arm length and overall body type to endure hits.
So it comes down to breaking all the molds and rolling the dice with a high investment on something this unusual.
I wouldn't want to make that call with any pick in the top 15-20. That's a big miss if he fails to deliver, and gets GMs fired.
Quote:
honor contracts.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
It was part of his contract
I have a different take. Beane out-thought himself. Since he never established himself as a QB in college, he probably didnt worry about what would happen of worst case scenario happened. ANd it did.
I am still a believer that Murray should have never signed that contract to begin with. Its one thing to option, but it really put the A's in a bind. They cant even use that money to sign other players if they wanted.
I am not disagreeing that Murray did whats best for him. But signing that contract and not honoring it is pretty low. And of course thats just my opinion.
Similarly, any NFL team drafting Murray also knows he has a lucrative fallback option should the NFL not work out right away. That is something any team drafting him will need to consider when investing a high draft pick in him.
Quote:
In comment 14293359 dep026 said:
Quote:
But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I have no idea why you're so vehemently defending the A's right now. They chose to draft and sign him. They knew the risks and those risks were factored into the contract he signed. Murray still has free will and signing a contract doesn't automatically make someone a slave. The advantage the A's had in drafting and signing him was that if Murray decided to play baseball they had the rights to him over the other MLB teams. There was always a risk that he might play football and they took the risk. They will get back the money that was agreed they would get back in the contract if he decided to play football instead. There was no foul play of any sort here on either side (no pun intended). Regardless of what you personally think the word "contract" means or implies, Murray did nothing illegal in any way here.
Quote:
Do you hold teams accountable for the same contract?
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
I do believe teams should honor them as well.
So the Giants should keep Stewart and Barwin? they had 2 year deals
Quote:
In comment 14293420 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Do you hold teams accountable for the same contract?
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
I do believe teams should honor them as well.
So the Giants should keep Stewart and Barwin? they had 2 year deals
Yes, they should. They shouldnt have been signed to begin with.
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I would absolutely bet that another team will take a similar gamble. Maybe not with a pick as high as 9, time will tell.
Take your time.
I’m ready to fall in love with this kid’s nfl future. Fully aware my heart will likely be shattered into a million pieces, I don’t care, I’m ready. If the combine delivers Murray in a positive fashion I’m sending him love notes in class with yes, maybe and no.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Quote:
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Quote:
In comment 14293320 dep026 said:
Quote:
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
they should get his football contract too. I know it will never happen.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
Quote:
In comment 14293501 djm said:
Quote:
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Dave Winfield was drafted in three sports: MLB, NBA (and ABA), and NFL.
Quote:
In comment 14293501 djm said:
Quote:
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Exactly it’s a tiny sample size but both went on the play baseball at some point. Not necessarily “quitting” football but the players that signed in multiple sports ended up playing them.
Well yeah for good reason, he was probably told by his agent, etc. not to discuss certain things at that point and Patrick and others just would not drop it. He probably should have declined the interviews.
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
If we go QB with a high 1st Round pick I'd still prefer Haskins as the guy with the better combination of celing and floor. Murray though has entered into the equation for me. There just might be two QB's worthy of our consideration.
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
How is it a screw job? Players have been drafted in multiple sports for decades.
People can change their minds. Happens all the time.
But from everything I have read and heard, Murray and Boras gave Bean their word that Murray was all in on baseball.
And the A's were more than generous letting him play football, btw.
But once Murray started going on a tear, getting all the attention, then the Heisman, then everything got turned upside down.
So let's not let Murray off scot-free...
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
He's going to be giving back the money. So if that happens and then he decides he wants to go back to baseball he'd have to crawl back and presumably take a lesser deal.
He's playing football, always has been IMO. He's going to go in the first round and play the sexiest position in sports for a lot more money than he'd be making this year on the A's.
Exactly, Murray played the game like a savvy businessman. Probably at the advice of his agents on both sides. “Pretend you’re 100% invested in baseball and the Athletics, just in case the football thing doesn’t work out or you change your mind.”
There is no “word for it” contract in any business, let alone one with millions on the table...
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
Quote:
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
I agree with this 100%.
IMO, there’s 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
If Tim Tebow can get a legit shot with the Mets post his failed NFL career, you better believe Murray will be able to go back and play baseball later if he wants to.
IMO, there’s 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
I don't believe Oakland took any kind of verbal guarantee. But if they did, then they are stupid.
But again - they clearly thought this could happen, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract they way they did.
Do you think the March 1st date for him to receive the rest of the signing bonus was a mistake? That date was clearly chosen because they would know by then if he would attend the combine.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
Why put it mildly? ;)
Quote:
we gamble for Murray as QB;
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
No, I'm willing to gamble that he will be our QB of the future. But an Edelman type of career wouldn't be a bad consolation IF it doesn't work out at QB. Not that we need a slot receiver, but it wouldn't be a complete waste of a pick like Flowers or Apple. Again, I doubt Murray accepts any position other than QB.
Take your time.
Brian Jordan
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
No, they don’t. And they won’t.
Quote:
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Brian Jordan
We have a winner!
You kinda ruined my point?
Ok other than Brian Jordan who doesn’t count because I forgot about him.... anyone else?
Doesn’t matter giants may think he’s too small. Poopy to that.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Seriously? Murray has a decent chance of being a top 4 OVERALL pick, and you're busy wasting people's time with if he falls to the 4th round. Well...thanks for that.
Hey, if Nick Bosa falls to the 5th round, I'd take a shot on him. Quinnen Williams, too. Are we done with the nonsense yet?
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
Quote:
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
Quote:
In comment 14293970 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
This is correct. At least Rosen is on tape against NFL teams and survived a brutal year behind that line(durability issue resolved). While I agree with UConn on trying to get him for a 2nd round pick, I would take him for the 6th - he was who I wanted last year.
UConn you cannot say that because he was 10th last year means a 6th this year is over paying, there is no direct correlation. Rosen would easily be the top QB in the draft this year, which means he would be a top 5 pick this year if not #1.