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Vacchiano claims Giants think Kyler Murray is...

Mike in St. Louis : 2/11/2019 4:13 pm
too small...

"A team source told SNY's Ralph Vacchiano that Oklahoma QB Kyler Murray is "probably a little too small" for the Giants.

The Giants "prefer to stick to the established measurables they have for a prototypical quarterback," Vacchiano notes. The Giants' organization emphasizes conventional wisdom and inside-the-box thinking, and they haven't started a quarterback that measures below 6-feet since 5-foot-11 Gary Wood went 0-6 in 1966. And "the philosophy hasn't changed all that much (in that over half-century timeframe)," Vacchiano confirms. 6-foot-3 Dwayne Haskins, 6-foot-4 Drew Lock, and 6-foot-5 Daniel Jones appear to be likelier candidates to succeed 6-foot-4 Eli Manning than 5-foot-9 Murray."

Source: SNY.com
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heres another one for you  
jtdukedfw : 2/11/2019 5:51 pm : link
and again i repeat i'm not pushing for Murray but i am also not dismissing him:

Avg height NFL dline: 6'5'
Avg height NFL oline: 6'4"
Avg height CFL dline: 6'4"
No Oklahoma starting O lineman was under 6'4"

Darren Sproles is 5'6" and has lasted 13 years yeah i get it not a QB but a playmaker is a playmaker....
it's quite defensible to have  
bluepepper : 2/11/2019 6:03 pm : link
size and speed requirements IMO. It's better than "it's not the size of his body but the size of his heart that counts" type thinking. You just have to be smart about it and adjust your requirements as the game changes. So maybe, and I say maybe some people are right about changes in the game making QB height not as big a deal. If so, adjust your QB requirements. If the Giants have looked at it and said, no, height still matters than I am okay with it.
this is why the Giants are failing  
SHO'NUFF : 2/11/2019 6:03 pm : link
they can't adjust to the times... if Saquon were 5 lbs lighter, they would've passed on him despite what they see on tape.
RE: robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 6:05 pm : link
In comment 14293700 Go Terps said:
Quote:
When you say, "changed a lot of stuff" does that mean he tweaked Young's system, or he implemented/developed something completely unrelated? Because if he just tweaked Young's system, is it still bullshit to say he's using Young's system?


I personally don't have that info but can we give Gettleman a little credit based off of last year? The guy had a great draft so if we were doing things the same way we did when Reese was here our draft would have sucked.

Too many people are lumping in the Giants of the last 7 years or so with what Gettleman did last year. I know you disagree with him not taking a QB last year but just because you disagree doesn't mean he was wrong in what he did. There can be more than one way of doing things.

Gettleman was in Carolina with Cam Newton so we know he liked a QB that can run around. He has said as much.

I agree with certain height/weight requirements are antiquated but I am fine if they think Murray is too small. I personally do with both height and weight and possible hand size like you mentioned. That shouldn't be looked at as a negative. It should be looked at as part of the process.

What people fail to realize is they want that homerun. They focus on the upside. Murray can change the game. Think about what him, Barkley, Beckham, and Engram can do. What a lot of people don't want to focus on is what if he isn't good in the NFL? He had a bunch of balls batted down against Alabama. In that game he wasn't great at all and his team really didn't have a shot but he put up numbers when the game was out of hand. What I am trying to say is that not every pick needs to be a homerun. To use that analogy, how many picks did Reese miss because he was going for the upside? Way too many. We struck out on way to many picks like Flowers, Apple, Austin, the JPP of TEs, and numerous other ones instead of getting better value. I am not saying that he needs to focus more on the floor of a player but the whole player needs to be evaluated and understand the risks associated with that player. Focus on the here and now and not necessarily what a player could be if x, y, and z work out.

Murray put up crazy stats but that isn't what makes a QB. Going through reads and progressions is huge and most QBs don't do this. They take off and run and too many Giants fans want that because they are so burnt out from our shitty OL that they think that is a top quality to have in a QB. It isnt. In fact, it shows when things aren't perfect more often than not that QB would rather run with it than go through his progressions. The odds of teaching a QB at the NFL level how to go through progressions and stand tall in the pocket are slim. That is something that has to be developed somewhere else especially nowadays when the NFL has limited practices and hitting.

So, long story short, I like you am not on the Murray bandwagon. However, I am not taking RV's take on anything Giants related as fact. I will also hope that the Giants factor in height and weight into any evaluation. It would be stupid not to. It just matters how much emphasis is put on it and how does that evaluation hold up. I hope that these scouts and Gettleman and company are constantly self-scouting their own process to how previous players were evaluated and how those grades hold up.

I don't want to make blanket statements on the Giants organization amd how they function when Gettleman clearly stated he had all the scouts on the phone and explained how things were changing. He fired Marc Ross and took over the draft. Year one was a success in that area. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt in year two before we lose our minds over a couple of comments that were reported from an asshole from unnamed sources.
It is hardly a definitive statement  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 2/11/2019 6:15 pm : link
"A team source told SNY's Ralph Vacchiano that Oklahoma QB Kyler Murray is "probably a little too small" for the Giants.

Probably. Everyone knew that was likely the case. But there are always exceptions to the word "probably".
There are exceptions made everyday.  
Giant John : 2/11/2019 6:25 pm : link
Ralph maybe stating his opinion? I trust Giants will do a fair evaluation and base their decision off of that.
RE: RE: RE: A typical Giants quarterback in the draft...  
markky : 2/11/2019 6:33 pm : link
In comment 14293677 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14293674 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


In comment 14293663 BamaBlue said:


Quote:


is a quarterback with high measurable, height, arm strength and leadership. He also generally stunk to high heaven... Other than Phil Sims and Eli Manning (in the best quarterback class since '84), how has that 'winning formula' played out?



Well to be fair, which team keeps hitting on QB after QB? The Packers had Favre (who they traded for) and then Rodgers. Who else seamlessly moved from one great QB to the next through the draft in the past 20 years or so?



Manning and Luck?


Patriots Bledsoe -> Brady. And before Bledsoe there was only a 2 year gap before you get to Steve Grogan. They've been damn lucky.
RE: heres another one for you  
81_Great_Dane : 2/11/2019 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14293703 jtdukedfw said:
Quote:
and again i repeat i'm not pushing for Murray but i am also not dismissing him:

Avg height NFL dline: 6'5'
Avg height NFL oline: 6'4"
Avg height CFL dline: 6'4"
No Oklahoma starting O lineman was under 6'4"

Darren Sproles is 5'6" and has lasted 13 years yeah i get it not a QB but a playmaker is a playmaker....
I guess Spud Webb and Muggsy Bogues prove you don't have to be tall to play in the NBA... but the trend is for taller and taller guys all over the court.
RE: Another viewpoint  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2019 6:45 pm : link
In comment 14293694 Defenderdawg said:
Quote:
Michael Lombardi (@mlombardiNFL)
2/11/19, 4:24 PM
The Giants have used the same grading system since George Young took over and in that system, they would have a hard time giving Murray a high grade. the system is designed to prevent the team from being small--its all about size and speed.

It's a great thing the league hasn't changed at all since then. If the Giants won't consider a player strictly because he isn't their ideal height then I am even more concerned about the future of this franchise.
robbie  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 6:48 pm : link
Why are we so comfortable saying Gettleman had a great draft? What is that based on? There is only one guy that we can safely say is a very good player - Barkley - and I think arguments can be made that he was not the right pick given the Giants' situation. But even if you ignore that, what do we know about the other guys?

And further, did this draft class do anything to positively impact the team's identity? We weren't a good running team, we weren't a good passing team. We didn't run block or pass block well. We didn't rush the passer well, and we didn't stop the run well. The QB we drafted was a disaster and mocked by the head coach. So where did one of the rookies come in and make a great impact?

If you want to look at a team we know had a great draft, go look at Indy. Their rookie offensive linemen changed the identity of their offense, and Leonard was one of the best defensive players in the entire league, let alone amongst the rookies. The Colts went from 4-12 to 10-6 in a year in part because of their draft class. THAT is a great draft.
Not an exact equivalency  
RomanWH : 2/11/2019 6:53 pm : link
but DG did take Chris McCaffrey at 8 overall. "Inside-the-box thinking" would say: Undersized. A 3rd down, change-of-pace back that would break down if given a bellcow role of 20-25 touches/game. Probably could find a similar player in the mid to later rounds.

Odds are, the Giants front office probably won't take Murray but I just wanted to point out that DG did buy into talent over size at least once.
Pass big time  
Little boy Lost : 2/11/2019 7:00 pm : link
Mike Vick redux. This is not the Giant way. Same for Haskins.
only way they take Jones  
BigBlueCane : 2/11/2019 7:01 pm : link
is if he makes it to the 2nd round. They're keeping and paying Eli points to a lineman pick in the first and that is Gettleman's area of focus/expertise.
RE: RE: Another viewpoint  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/11/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14293739 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:


It's a great thing the league hasn't changed at all since then. If the Giants won't consider a player strictly because he isn't their ideal height then I am even more concerned about the future of this franchise.


One would think the cases of people like Brees and Wilson would lead the Giants to be more open-minded even if they prefer a larger QB. Stagnation in thinking is a killer.
Terps  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 7:21 pm : link
Is Hernandez supposed to fix the whole OL? Come on withbthat BS. Indy addressed their OL with two top players and had many picks to work with. Barkley and Hernandez didn't help this team put up way better offensive numbers than the past few years?

You remind me of a college studemt where everything is theory but until you actually get experience in a field you don't truly understand the nuances of practice.

You, like many, have stated what a horrendous job Reese did. Did you think Gettleman was going to come in day one, wave his dick around, and magically cure all of our issues? I didn't. This was always going to be a process. Did you want him to bat 1.000? Nobody does. So, you cannot have it both ways. If you cannot see the improvement that has taken place so far I don't know what to tell you.

You'd be better off just giving Gettleman some time before constantly saying the same thing over and over and over. We understand you would have done things different and have differing opinions on things. I used to really like your thoughts even if they were completely against the norm. But now it seems like you just like saying anything that goes against the grain. If you are so unhappy with how this franchise is run then just take a break and let it unfold. See what happens. Gettleman has earned that opportunity whether you agree with that or not.

I agree with you about Shurmur but he still gets a shot in my opinion. Constantly turning over staff is a guaranteed way to fail. The Giants have been the opposite for many years by sticking with people too long. But after McAdoo, getting rid of Shurmur without giving him a chance is not smart either.

Here is where we differ. When you see something you dont like you want to rid all pieces associated with it. Every tike a player is mentioned whether it is Eli, Beckham, Engram, JPP, or whoever, your answer is if we suck with them we can suck without them so we need ro get rid of them. Then you say the same about the coaches. You said the samw about our GM. You wanted the entire scouting department wiped away. That doesn't solve problems and that isn't a way to go about business with people. Some players or others you may be right with but that is almost always your take. When you wanted the entire scouting department gone taht was just ludicrous. Just becaise we had bad drafts doesn't mean they didn't do their job well. Their job is to evaluate players according to our grading system. The people don't need ro change, the system did. Gettleman did that to better results. You don't just throw away all that experience. The smarter way to handle that is to constantly evaluate your way of thinking and adapt and educate. Leadership is the key.
robbie  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 7:32 pm : link
I'm not saying anything that goes against the grain. The "grain" is that the Giants have been a really bad football team. I'm not making that up. I'd argue that those of you that want to give them the benefit of the doubt are going against the grain.

Criticizing me doesn't make the Giants any better. I'm sorry to hold a mirror up in front of the team, but I'm not going to pretend this isn't one of the worst teams in the NFL.

You want to give them the benefit of the doubt? Want to say Gettleman's doing a good job? Want to give Shurmur another shot? Go ahead. It doesn't change what's actually happening.
RE: Pass big time  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2019 7:35 pm : link
In comment 14293753 Little boy Lost said:
Quote:
Mike Vick redux. This is not the Giant way. Same for Haskins.

How is he like Vick? Murray is a far better passer than Vick and it's not close. Vick's completion percentage in college was 56% while Murray's was 67.4 %.
RE: robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14293779 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not saying anything that goes against the grain. The "grain" is that the Giants have been a really bad football team. I'm not making that up. I'd argue that those of you that want to give them the benefit of the doubt are going against the grain.

Criticizing me doesn't make the Giants any better. I'm sorry to hold a mirror up in front of the team, but I'm not going to pretend this isn't one of the worst teams in the NFL.

You want to give them the benefit of the doubt? Want to say Gettleman's doing a good job? Want to give Shurmur another shot? Go ahead. It doesn't change what's actually happening.


Criticize certain things as much as you want. We have sucked. I have criticized Shurmur as well. I wasn't crazy about the Stewart signing when it happened. There is plenty to criticize but if you cannot see that we are headed in the right direction then that is what you see and we obviously disagree.
robbie  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 7:37 pm : link
Quote:
The people don't need ro change, the system did. Gettleman did that to better results. You don't just throw away all that experience. The smarter way to handle that is to constantly evaluate your way of thinking and adapt and educate. Leadership is the key.


1. You don't know the extent to which the system changed, if it did at all.

2. Gettleman got better results? How so? And better than whom?

3. Do the Giants seem like an organization that is constantly self-evaluating their way of thinking? Do they seem like they are adapting and educating themselves? I'd point you to Gettleman's draft comments about analytics as a reference.

4. Do you think the Giants' leadership is doing well? You think heaping blame on the previous regime by repeatedly referencing 3-13 is leadership? You think using the rookie backup QB as a punchline for the media is leadership?
The only..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
thing less out of the box than the Giants reported way of doing things is that this thread would serve mainly as a platform to bash them by the usual suspects.
RE: RE: RE: Another viewpoint  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2019 7:38 pm : link
In comment 14293771 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14293739 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:




It's a great thing the league hasn't changed at all since then. If the Giants won't consider a player strictly because he isn't their ideal height then I am even more concerned about the future of this franchise.



One would think the cases of people like Brees and Wilson would lead the Giants to be more open-minded even if they prefer a larger QB. Stagnation in thinking is a killer.

And Mayfield just last year. The game is evolving and so do the Giants. Being stuck in this old way of thinking is detrimental to the future success of the team. I used to be against the mobile types but Murray is so talented that I would be thrilled if the Giants took him. He was outstanding despite focusing on two sports. Imagine how much better he will be now that he is focused solely on football. I expect him to show up to the combine close weighing over 200 lbs.
.  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 7:43 pm : link
And all I did was ask the extent to which Gettleman tweaked Young's system, or did he develop something new. Instead of getting an answer for that, I got a plea to just give him a chance.
Sounds like BS to me.  
TMS : 2/11/2019 7:43 pm : link
Do not think anyone in the Giants organization, who really knows, tells a reporter something like that prior to the combine, and seeing the player perform, interview, and seeing his measurables.
RE: I wouldn't take Murray (or any other QB) at #6,  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/11/2019 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14293671 Go Terps said:
Quote:
but the question is if Murray drops significantly and is at or in range of our second round pick, do we pass on him then? Say if he and Jones are on the board at the top of round 2, are we seriously going to pick Jones ahead of him? That would be tough to take.


You VILL LEARNS TO ACCZEPT DIS!
RE: That Hot Woman at the Bar is REALLY into You!  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/11/2019 7:44 pm : link
In comment 14293685 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
The fact that she just threw a drink in your face and told you to F**K OFF was all just part of her disinformation campaign.


She really wanted to see me bare chested!
If the Giants do take a QB in round 1  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2019 7:44 pm : link
I expect it to be either Haskins or Lock. I don't think they would take Lock at 6 but Haskins seems like more of the prototype that the Giants prefer. I would not be upset at all if the Giants took Haskins as he reminds me a lot of Roethlisberger minus the shithead attitude.
This comment prior to the Panthers Super Bowl in 2016  
Defenderdawg : 2/11/2019 7:45 pm : link
“The way we looked at players, the way we scouted, just understanding that the average college player just isn’t fundamentally sound, you have to look at it differently,” Gettleman said. “For example, you take a linebacker. So the scout watches him and he says, ‘Well, he doesn’t know how to use his hands.’ So he knocks his grade down a little bit. Well, did anyone ever teach him? We don’t know.”

And don’t ask Gettleman about analytics.

“Football is about watching film when they’re between the white lines,” Gettleman said. “You’ve got to be patient and you have to watch. And the other part of it is, you have to know what you are looking for.”


Link - ( New Window )
NYP 1-20-2018  
Defenderdawg : 2/11/2019 7:49 pm : link
“We’re changing everything around in the department, from how we operate to the grading scale, everything,’’ a Giants source familiar with Gettleman’s thinking told The Post. “Everything. Nothing’s going to stay the same

“We’re gonna have what I call a philosophical and method shift on how we operate, yes,’’ Gettleman told The Post. “The philosophy is the way of looking at players, and the method is how we set up the draft board

. Under Reese and Ross, the Giants were often drawn to height-weight-speed prospects who too frequently went bust rather than boom. It is believed Gettleman will bring the emphasis back to production on the field — stressing passion, desire and mechanics rather than raw talent.

This will be reflected in how players are actually placed on the Giants’ draft board. Gettleman took a look at how the Panthers graded players, preferred that system to what he knew with the Giants, and retained it in Charlotte. Now he is bringing it to the Giants.

“Putting your focus on different things, the board is gonna look very different,’’ Gettleman said. “It’s actually something I learned in Carolina. There’s an old saying: Every man is my equal, in that I may learn from him. These guys taught me a different way of looking at it — not how to evaluate, not how to do it philosophically, but just a different way of setting up a board, and I think it’s terrific.’’

Gettleman would not get into specifics, but agreed the new draft board will more accurately display how an individual players’ grade relates to others on the board.

“It gives you not only a vertical view but also a horizontal view as well,’’ he said. “It allows you to really see the board, without giving anything up.’’
All NFL teams — other than the Patriots, not surprisingly — hire one of two scouting services, National Football Scouting or Blesto, to get a better handle on college juniors. The Giants are with Blesto. Teams usually assign one of their young, inexperienced scouts to these services, and one of Gettleman’s first jobs was as the Blesto scout for the Bills. When Gettleman got to Carolina, one of his first moves was to switch the Panthers from National to Blesto.

“You got to realize we’re all gonna go back to our roots,’’ he said.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 7:50 pm : link
In comment 14293783 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


The people don't need ro change, the system did. Gettleman did that to better results. You don't just throw away all that experience. The smarter way to handle that is to constantly evaluate your way of thinking and adapt and educate. Leadership is the key.



1. You don't know the extent to which the system changed, if it did at all.

2. Gettleman got better results? How so? And better than whom?

3. Do the Giants seem like an organization that is constantly self-evaluating their way of thinking? Do they seem like they are adapting and educating themselves? I'd point you to Gettleman's draft comments about analytics as a reference.

4. Do you think the Giants' leadership is doing well? You think heaping blame on the previous regime by repeatedly referencing 3-13 is leadership? You think using the rookie backup QB as a punchline for the media is leadership?


1. Yes, I don't know the extent to which it has changed. I said that already since I am not in on the meetings. All I can go by is what Gettleman said.

2. Compare last draft to our last, I don't know, 8 drafts. Tell me it hasn't been way better.

3. Neither of us can answer that. I said that is the way I would do it. I would hope the Giants do that but do not know.

4. I think Gettleman and Shurmur have shown leadership. 100%. Gettleman has made some tough decisions and some stuff that would never have happened under Reese or probably Acorsi for that reason. Getting rid of JPP was something you wanted but that had an effect on this defense but it was necessary. He got rid of Marc Ross which would never happen if Gettleman wasn't here. He brought in guys to fix the culture and that happened. Shurmur has held this team together and got them playing better after a horrendous start. Yes, neither of us liked a lot pf what we saw but in terms of leadership he led these men.

Like I said, you see what you want like I see what I want. This team wasn't going to be flipped in one season. Imo, we are on the right path. You disagree. Imo, Shurmur and possibly Gettleman get 2 more years to see where they are at. I am in education and the rule of thumb is you need 3 years to truly evaluate a new program's effectiveness. You need a big enough sample size. Now that doesn't mean blindly leave that program alone because it'll never work or don't make adjustments but you need to implement it correctly. Imo, Gettleman has taken this team by the horns and is doing the right thing. I'm not saying he's perfect but he 100% is demonstrating the necessary leadership needed.
RE: .  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 7:52 pm : link
In comment 14293791 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And all I did was ask the extent to which Gettleman tweaked Young's system, or did he develop something new. Instead of getting an answer for that, I got a plea to just give him a chance.


You know that is a ridiculous question. How would anybody outside the organization know that? And that isn't true. I answered the question by saying nobody knows that. Not sure what you are looking for.
Good  
PatersonPlank : 2/11/2019 7:55 pm : link
I don't want Murray. I will go on record as saying he can't play QB in the NFL, and I have watched most of his games.
robbie  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 8:02 pm : link
2 more years? So another 5-11 season and they both get to see 2020?

If 3 years is what's needed, then explain the Colts. Explain the Eagles winning the Super Bowl in Pederson's second season. Or McVay getting to the Super Bowl in his second season. What about Matt Nagy taking Chicago to 12-4 in his first year? How about Anthony Lynn going 9-7 and 12-4 with the Chargers despite taking over a team that just moved to a new city and has played the equivalent of 10 or 11 road games each season? How about Mike Vrabel going 9-7 with the Titans in a tough division and dealing with a QB injury?

Those guys didn't seem to need the first 8 games of the season to get their offense to a representative NFL level. They also haven't needed 3 years to lead competitive teams.

You want to give Gettleman and Shurmur three years, that's fine. I suspect Mara might be of a like mind. I also suspect all three years will have been losing seasons, and we'll be starting this whole thing over at that point.
RE: only way they take Jones  
AcidTest : 2/11/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14293755 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
is if he makes it to the 2nd round. They're keeping and paying Eli points to a lineman pick in the first and that is Gettleman's area of focus/expertise.


Agreed. But I don't think Jones makes it to the second round. I expect cluster drafting of OL, pass rushers, and LBs.
RE: robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 2/11/2019 8:09 pm : link
In comment 14293813 Go Terps said:
Quote:
2 more years? So another 5-11 season and they both get to see 2020?

If 3 years is what's needed, then explain the Colts. Explain the Eagles winning the Super Bowl in Pederson's second season. Or McVay getting to the Super Bowl in his second season. What about Matt Nagy taking Chicago to 12-4 in his first year? How about Anthony Lynn going 9-7 and 12-4 with the Chargers despite taking over a team that just moved to a new city and has played the equivalent of 10 or 11 road games each season? How about Mike Vrabel going 9-7 with the Titans in a tough division and dealing with a QB injury?

Those guys didn't seem to need the first 8 games of the season to get their offense to a representative NFL level. They also haven't needed 3 years to lead competitive teams.

You want to give Gettleman and Shurmur three years, that's fine. I suspect Mara might be of a like mind. I also suspect all three years will have been losing seasons, and we'll be starting this whole thing over at that point.


Simple, those teams had more talent. Philly was loaded on their OL and DL. Indy has Luck so they did right by fixing that OL that was in better shaoe than our OL was in. The Rams had talent and Jeff Fisher was garbage.

Again, view things the way you want. That is your right. No need to go back amd forth over this. Did any other team have like 10 years of bad draftimg like we have had? It is going to take time to truly turn this team around.
If Kyler was Cam Newton's size...  
90.Cal : 2/11/2019 8:09 pm : link
I believe he would easily be the 1st pick. I'm drooling over here, just thinking about him sharing the field with Odell and Saquon. Crazy.
robbie  
Go Terps : 2/11/2019 8:17 pm : link
So all of those other teams were just loaded up and waiting for a the right coach to step in? Chicago was 5-11 when Nagy took over. Philly was 7-9 when Pederson took over. McVay took over a 4-12 team. Lynn took over a 5-11 team that was changing cities.

It's easy to just heap the blame on Reese and McAdoo and overlook the job that was done in 2018 after they had been shown the door.
LOL...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/11/2019 8:24 pm : link
"The Giants' organization emphasizes conventional wisdom and inside-the-box thinking..."

I spit out my beer reading that. LOL. Such a conservative organization. But nah, I'm not bitter or mad about missing the postseason 6 of the 7 last seasons...
It really is telling around here...  
bw in dc : 2/11/2019 8:31 pm : link
The "last one out the door is a rotten egg" theory is in full bloom. Blame everything on the person(s) who just got their walking papers...

I see this all the time in business. High or mid-level person(s) is let go and they become the easy go-to for blame on certain issues.

Sure, the Giants were bad again this year. But it can't be Gettleman/Shurmur. No, they inherited a mess and are doing yeomen's work to fix the mess left behind by McAdoo and Reese.

Despite the fact that there are early warning signs that this regime may not be any better than the prior...



RE: robbie  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2019 8:34 pm : link
In comment 14293831 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So all of those other teams were just loaded up and waiting for a the right coach to step in? Chicago was 5-11 when Nagy took over. Philly was 7-9 when Pederson took over. McVay took over a 4-12 team. Lynn took over a 5-11 team that was changing cities.

It's easy to just heap the blame on Reese and McAdoo and overlook the job that was done in 2018 after they had been shown the door.

Reese and Ross deserve most of the blame. Their recent draft history and FA signings have been among the worst in football. When you miss out on two top 10 picks in a row you're in big trouble.
I think there’s clearly a middle road  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2019 8:36 pm : link
but some you take the all or nothing approach which makes it pointless to argue with.

Isn’t it possible Reese left a mess of a roster and DG/Shurmur need to do a better job? Weird, I know.
RE: It really is telling around here...  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14293848 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The "last one out the door is a rotten egg" theory is in full bloom. Blame everything on the person(s) who just got their walking papers...

I see this all the time in business. High or mid-level person(s) is let go and they become the easy go-to for blame on certain issues.

Sure, the Giants were bad again this year. But it can't be Gettleman/Shurmur. No, they inherited a mess and are doing yeomen's work to fix the mess left behind by McAdoo and Reese.

Despite the fact that there are early warning signs that this regime may not be any better than the prior...




Reese was a good scout, but he was a bad GM. Namely sticking with his butt buddy Marc Ross for so long. Notice how Marc Ross still has a job. His reputation is terrible throughout the league. He's known not only as inept, but the true career killer - lazy.

I challenge you to find a team that drafted worse than us in the last five years. Spoiler alert -I bet you can't that is how bad it is. 5 years of bad drafting absolutely guts a roster.

Bill Belichik took an 8-8 Pats teams and went 5-11 his first year building the team in his image. The Pats started 0-2 until Tom Brady came in and the rest is history. These things take time.
That should read Ross doesn't have a job.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 8:43 pm : link
,
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 8:45 pm : link
it's like there's a playbook out there on this:

Quote:
Sure, the Giants were bad again this year. But it can't be Gettleman/Shurmur. No, they inherited a mess and are doing yeomen's work to fix the mess left behind by McAdoo and Reese.

Despite the fact that there are early warning signs that this regime may not be any better than the prior...


There's a middle ground here. Gettleman and Shurmur have taken shit from several of you for every move. Go Terps is actually on record as saying they've done NOTHING good and points to the 5-11 record as why. If bw has given them credit, I'm not sure where.

So basically these two perpetual pessimists feel there's not a single positive, and don't even give credit for picking the rookie of the Year. And that's ignoring some of these nuggets of shit from one or both of them:

- Gettleman was hired as a yes man without any search for a GM at all
- Gettleman and Shurmur were hired with the mandate to build around Eli and not draft a QB
- Picking Barkley is a mistake even if he's the best player in the draft (and yes, that was said)
- The draft was a failure because of Barkley and the jury is still out on every other pick, including Hernandez and Hill
- Omameah's and Stewart's contracts weren't just terrible, they set the franchise back

There actually have to be some positives taken - and if you can't acknowledge that, then what's the point??

At this point, why keep watching the team?
I think there is a middle road  
NoGainDayne : 2/11/2019 8:47 pm : link
but I think the point that people are making here is that reminders that we refuse to think out of the box and evidence that this regime like the one before it thinks very conventionally are not exactly what any fans should want to hear. Let alone bend over backwards to defend. When this is compounded by other teams moving forward quickly technologically and the data available to teams rapidly expanding the issue is larger than are we improving on the field.

Not to mention when you look at a player like Kyler Murray with such a huge potential performance delta. You'd really like to be able to think the process was deeper than this player is too short for the position.




LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 8:51 pm : link
And now here comes the lecture about ignoring analytics.

These threads are fucking awesome.
Yeah I no longer bother anymore  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2019 8:54 pm : link
I used to spend a lot of time in these debates but it’s pointless. We will find out in September, the pissing match about who’s smarter is old.
Terps  
Samiam : 2/11/2019 9:02 pm : link
Why did you ignore McAdoo’s record in his first year? Giants went to the playoffs. You talk about Nagy’s first year.
RE: LOL..  
NoGainDayne : 2/11/2019 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14293876 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
And now here comes the lecture about ignoring analytics.

These threads are fucking awesome.


It's necessary with Luddites about making the same points while ironically complaining about others "making the same points"

And it's funny that someone that is always talking about whether people are informed or not spends time arguing about things he has very little knowledge of.

It's so great to hear about the team "not quitting" when they looked awful in the only games that even remotely mattered in the 2nd half of the season (Eagles and Titans)

It's also great when the same people go on threads about players that have done terrible jobs like Stewart or Omameh and feel the need to make points like at least he cut him and he probably had character value that we can't assess.

Just like here. Hearing from a reporter that covers the team that your team is essentially stuck in the past isn't the time or place to come in and tell us how wrong those of us that are concerned are. You don't want to hear that about a team you root for, the place you work anything that you have a vested interest in.

It's also amazing when people just attack sources that don't align with their views.
RE: robbie  
FStubbs : 2/11/2019 9:32 pm : link
In comment 14293813 Go Terps said:
Quote:
2 more years? So another 5-11 season and they both get to see 2020?

If 3 years is what's needed, then explain the Colts. Explain the Eagles winning the Super Bowl in Pederson's second season. Or McVay getting to the Super Bowl in his second season. What about Matt Nagy taking Chicago to 12-4 in his first year? How about Anthony Lynn going 9-7 and 12-4 with the Chargers despite taking over a team that just moved to a new city and has played the equivalent of 10 or 11 road games each season? How about Mike Vrabel going 9-7 with the Titans in a tough division and dealing with a QB injury?

Those guys didn't seem to need the first 8 games of the season to get their offense to a representative NFL level. They also haven't needed 3 years to lead competitive teams.

You want to give Gettleman and Shurmur three years, that's fine. I suspect Mara might be of a like mind. I also suspect all three years will have been losing seasons, and we'll be starting this whole thing over at that point.


Each and every one of those teams was/is miles ahead of the Giants in terms of roster depth.

I've said this before: the 2015 Giants without Eli and Beckham were arguably one of the worst rosters in NFL history - certainly worse than the 2017 Browns. Landon Collins turned into a respectable player and the Giants acquired some free agents on defense but the roster at this point last year was not that much better than that 2015 roster.

Long story short - Gettleman could have a great offseason, improve this team a lot - and it might still finish 7-9 next year.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 9:38 pm : link
Sure:

Quote:
Just like here. Hearing from a reporter that covers the team that your team is essentially stuck in the past isn't the time or place to come in and tell us how wrong those of us that are concerned are.


Just like here?? You mean the thread where a reporter talks about Murray likely being too small to be the Giants pick and that's spurs all sorts of criticism of Gettleman and Shurmur?

And your takeaway? That there's no deeper analysis than the player is too small, even though you have no fucking clue what the reasoning behind it is.

You mean a thread like this that causes all sorts of knee-jerk reactions?

Just like here - a thread that gives just one more platform to tell us how shitty Gettleman and Shurmur are, even though that isn't the point. Great example Captain Analytics
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