Josina Anderson seems to think so. I posted it in the Kyler Murray thread below, but think it deserves it's own thread.
| Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2. |
| Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: I remember when it literally took hearing Baker Mayfield's name coming out of Roger Goodell's mouth draft night before folks believed what we'd been saying all day. Draft night gonna be so fun. |
If this is true I'd assume many teams will be offering picks for Rosen. I think the Giants would have be included in that. He's got a year of NFL experience. He just turned 22 and is only 3 months older then Haskins.
Why should the Giants aspire to any of these low-ceiling team building examples?
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
Draft round only matters for the players' first contract. Those 3 teams pay their QBs top $$ (though in TBs case much of it is under the table). GB should be in that mix too since it took an AR injury to keep them out of the postseason last year.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
And while they haven't seen the same sustained success, I'd put the Saints and Colts as "high-ceiling" teams too. Brees/Luck can absolutely carry their teams to the SB like Eli did twice.
Dak (Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins) needs to play turnover free and ride the D/running game. Much less margin for error with a QB like that.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
It's not about what round they are drafted, it's about not settling for adequate QB play. Hell, I'm halfway on the Stidham bandwagon if the Giants want a latter round QB.
And yes, those three teams you listed, along with the Chiefs, Colts, and Rams (though I don't love Goff), have higher ceilings, because having a great QB provides more sustainable year-to-year offensive performance.
I'm talking about sustained success. Goff is an interesting case. Will he elevate the Rams or will he rest and fall on the talent level around him.
I'm pointing out the rounds of Wilson and Brady because it seems to be taken as fact here that if we don't draft a QB high in the 1st round, and likely have to trade up to do so, we can't be successful.
But how funny would it be if AZ wanted Murray, but felt they could get him lower in the 1st RD AND get a team (like the Giants) to overpay for Rosen with a 1st and an 2nd.
AZ takes a non-QB with the #1 overall (Bosa?)
The Giants knowing that AZ wants Murray takes him at 6 overall and holds AZ's feet to the fire forcing them to reduce their asking price.
In the end AZ gets both Bosa and Murray... and the Giants trade their #1 (and nothing more) for Rosen.
Or for Bosa????
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
The Pats had Drew Bledsoe whom they took with the #1 pick in Draft and then signed to the largest contract in NFL History over 100 million dollars when they drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round
The Seahawks had just signed Matt Flynn in free agency to a 3 yr 21 mil deal contract which was pretty good money at the time. He was pretty well thought of then as Rodgers back up and he was coming to Seattle to be the man when they drafted Wilson in the 3rd round
The point being- neither the Pats nor the Seahawks made drafting mid to low rd QBs their plan. They had other irons in the fire and their lower round risks them paid off and knocked the other guys out of the picture.
The Steelers had the Kordell Stewarts, Tommy Maddoxs and Kent Grahams of the world before they finally took the risk on a high end QB in Big Ben at 12 and low and behold moved into a team that couldnt win to a perennial contender and a team that won 2 SBs and went to a 3rd.
Even Ben hasn't made the playoffs 6 years in a row.
By the way, the Steelers D has been ranked in the Top 5 NINE times in Ben's career. Being ranked #1 by yards and points FIVE times!!
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Rosen had no chance. That oline played most of the year like they were drunk or suffered vertigo. I think it was easily the worst in the NFL.
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
He's a rookie. I expect more from Eli despite the OL struggles. He's a 15 year veteran.
And I'm likely one of the few on this board who thinks 30-40% of Eli's sacks are on him, and not on the line. Eli's fastball, if you will, has always been his ability to read defenses. I think he's lost some MPH on that fastball and doesn't read defenses as well as he used to. So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
I'm talking about sustained success. Goff is an interesting case. Will he elevate the Rams or will he rest and fall on the talent level around him.
I'm pointing out the rounds of Wilson and Brady because it seems to be taken as fact here that if we don't draft a QB high in the 1st round, and likely have to trade up to do so, we can't be successful.
Colts had plenty of sustained success before Luck's injuries and unsurprisingly returned to the postseason this year with a healthy Luck.
I'll take the over on that. My man Eli is playing 2 hand touch back there.
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So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
Maybe my memory is going as I grow older but I seem to recall quite a few jail break sacks.
Also, FMIC don't forget he lead in that category despite significantly improve line play the second half of the season
"Cardinals president Michael Bidwill shot down speculation about the team selecting Kyler Murray with the No. 1 overall pick.
Considering new coach Kliff Kingsbury said he would select Murray "with the first pick in the draft, if I could" when he was still at Texas Tech back in October, the speculation linking Murray to the Cardinals is fair, but Bidwill clearly knocked it down. "Theres always a lot of speculation that turns out to not be true," Bidwill said. "But moving forward, were going to continue to build this team and build around the foundation that we have." Bidwill also said he is not worried about the speculation affecting Josh Rosen, the No. 10 overall pick last year. The Cardinals might not draft him, but it would be a surprise if Murray falls out of the top-15."
Prior to him missing the season, the Colts made the playoffs 3 seasons and missed the playoffs 2 seasons. Is that really sustained?
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Colts had plenty of sustained success before Luck's injuries
Prior to him missing the season, the Colts made the playoffs 3 seasons and missed the playoffs 2 seasons. Is that really sustained?
He started the first 48 games of his career and made the postseason all 3 seasons. Year 4, he missed 2 games with a shoulder injury and then suffered a lacerated kidney and partially torn ab muscle and missed the remainder of the season.
2016 is the only "full" season he played (missed 1 game due to a concussion) in which the Colts missed the postseason. And he played that entire season with a lingering shoulder injury that required surgery and subsequently cost him the 2017 season.
So yes, the Colts with a healthy Luck had sustained success.
Again - the sustained success is overstated
"Cardinals president Michael Bidwill shot down speculation about the team selecting Kyler Murray with the No. 1 overall pick.
Considering new coach Kliff Kingsbury said he would select Murray "with the first pick in the draft, if I could" when he was still at Texas Tech back in October, the speculation linking Murray to the Cardinals is fair, but Bidwill clearly knocked it down. "Theres always a lot of speculation that turns out to not be true," Bidwill said. "But moving forward, were going to continue to build this team and build around the foundation that we have." Bidwill also said he is not worried about the speculation affecting Josh Rosen, the No. 10 overall pick last year. The Cardinals might not draft him, but it would be a surprise if Murray falls out of the top-15."
Its much more likely this is true than the original report has any validity.
Again - the sustained success is overstated
Didn't he start this year 2-5? He also hurt his shoulder in week 3 at which point they were 1-2.
Keep grasping at straws.
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So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
I think Eli's decision making is definitely in play and can skew that stat - yes.
At the same time, that stat may also reflect why it's more important than ever to get a younger, more athletic QB. Improvisation is an asset that this team absolutely needs. And Eli is the complete antithesis of that...
Keep grasping at straws.
the Colts were 2-5 in his 7 starts in 2015.
Is that grasping at straws or hoping that they'd overcome the traditional less than 5% odds to make the playoffs after starting 2-5??
It just gives your team a better chance of making the playoffs every year than a journeyman QB, since team defense is less reliable year-to-year.
On top of that, a great QB increases your odds of making a deep playoff run.
How many journeymen QBs have won superbowls during the last 20 years? Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and Nick Foles basically.
Obviously, the idea isn't that you de-emphasize defense and hope that a great offense carries you, but that you establish a great offense, centered on the QB, and hope you can capitalize on the years that your defense is upper echelon.
Ultimately, I still love Rosen and would deal the #6 for Rosen and AZs third round pick. That gets us back into the third and gets us our QB of the future and, really, the present, because we should start him immediately at that point.
Thats not true at all.
I Just find it odd that some here are so quick to give the rookie a pass because of the issues surrounding him but Elis efforts are deemed unacceptable.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
PUHLEZE!!!
Death spiral? Holy Hyperbole Fatman!
Missing on a QB with your 1st pick is no worse than missing any other position with a high pick. There's still a stupid commitment from the FO to "make the pick work" even if he stinks to high heaven. See Flowers, Eric or Apple, Eli.
Now if you've traded a 2, and next year's 1 & 2 picks to move up for said QB, you've created a holler.
But Reese has been high missing picks for a couple of years now, and really came up with scratch from round 3 on in like forever.
But death spiral? LOL.
Part of the reason we are in this position is because Reese missed on entire year's of drafts, including on first round picks.
When that happens at the QB position, look what happens.
Just look at failed QB's taken high. or just look at 2015. Drafting Winston hasn't panned out for the Bucs and they are treading water and still seem tied to keeping him, furthering their predicament.
Meanwhile when a Kevin White at WR doesn't pan out at #7 for the Bears, it may hurt them, but not to the extent wasting years on Winston will.
And that's with a QB with a modicum of success.
Jax spent 4 years trying to rely on Bortles - and hell, they go to a championship game and replace him the next season
The Redskins and Dolphins have been treading water since selecting RGIII and Tannehill. And just like we lament NYG's terrible run, if you don't think those teams are in a poor position, I don't know what to say.
A missed QB will put you in a hole for 4-5 years as the team muscles through their rookie contract.
Is that really disputable?
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In comment 14294096 Beer Man said:
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"Current conspiracy theory: Cardinals told Kyler Murray they'd draft him at No. 1 overall and trade Josh Rosen if he committed to football." Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
That doesn't make a lot of sense since Murray's also claimed to be participating in the combine. If he already has an assurance to go #1, why bother?
If he didn't sign a contract saying he's the #1 overall pick then there's always going to be doubt. He might as well go to the combine he has nothing to lose and he's probably going to measure well in every category other than the size-related ones.
I Just find it odd that some here are so quick to give the rookie a pass because of the issues surrounding him but Elis efforts are deemed unacceptable.
You find this odd? You find it odd that a 15 year vet making 22+ million a year is held to a different standard then a rookie QB playing on the worst offense in the league? The Giants are better in every facet of offense. RB, WR, TE and OL. Yet Eli sucked. You think Eli's numbers would be much different then Rosen if Eli played for the Cardinals?
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But death spiral? LOL.
Part of the reason we are in this position is because Reese missed on entire year's of drafts, including on first round picks.
When that happens at the QB position, look what happens.
Just look at failed QB's taken high. or just look at 2015. Drafting Winston hasn't panned out for the Bucs and they are treading water and still seem tied to keeping him, furthering their predicament.
Meanwhile when a Kevin White at WR doesn't pan out at #7 for the Bears, it may hurt them, but not to the extent wasting years on Winston will.
And that's with a QB with a modicum of success.
Jax spent 4 years trying to rely on Bortles - and hell, they go to a championship game and replace him the next season
The Redskins and Dolphins have been treading water since selecting RGIII and Tannehill. And just like we lament NYG's terrible run, if you don't think those teams are in a poor position, I don't know what to say.
A missed QB will put you in a hole for 4-5 years as the team muscles through their rookie contract.
Is that really disputable?
The redskins have had more success since drafting RG3 than we have in the same time frame.
They are in a tough spot now because of the injury to Cousins, but that could happen to any team and they could still easily have a better season than the Giants next year.
I know how clerical errors trigger you
It's too early to make any conclusions about Darnold, Allen, Rosen, and Jackson. They were rookies on bad teams.
As far as this year, I'd prefer not to take a QB at #6, but I also think it's probably moot because I expect Haskins and Lock to be taken before our pick. I don't think DG will trade up for either. Nor should he.
Jones won't last until the second round. I also don't think the Giants will take Grier or Finley, although the latter is certainly more likely. That leaves another day three QB (Cornelius?) as a possibility, which will certainly elicit understandable groans from the BBI faithful. Or maybe a trade for Sloter.
I'm typically not a fan of trading out of the top 10, especially this year since we have a ton of day three picks. But it might well be a possibility. Extra draft capital next year could be used to move up to get a QB. This draft is loaded with OL and DL, which is just what we need. Maybe trade down and take Ford.
The Vikings have still won their division twice since drafting Ponder....hardly a death spiral.
QB is the most important position on the field and if you miss on a top 10 pick QB it has lasting consequences. It's not about waiting for the perfect prospect, it's about making sure you get the right guy. There have been many failed 1st round QBs (more failures than successes) actually so it is smart to be careful with which one you take. You say we need to get someone for Shurmur to "develop"... he can't just develop anyone into a star starter, otherwise our future QB would already be on the roster and his name would be Kyle Lauletta. Positive thinking isn't going to win games, picking the right QB is. You can't just take a QB just to take one. We need to hit on this #6 pick regardless of the position. We missed on Flowers and Apple with top 10 picks and it set this franchise back half a decade.
It is funny that in almost any sport you talk about the highest upside guys being graded the highest but you have incredibly high upside guys like Russel Wilson fall because of a singular physical characteristic. Even someone like Donald, just an absolute beast falls. Rodgers was a dynamite prospect that was graded down for being 6'2.
If Beckham or Cooks were taller they would have gone higher.
For some reason teams seem more willing to risk sub par stats than sub par height.
It's odd.
Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
I wouldn't expect him to say anything else.
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Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
I wouldn't expect him to say anything else.
Agreed.
Great post 👍🏻
You have coined Management Hell.
I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona picks Murray. He's head and shoulders above Rosen. Regardless of Murray's size, his dynamic skill set is intriguing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona picks Murray. He's head and shoulders above Rosen. Regardless of Murray's size, his dynamic skill set is intriguing.
What's Rosen's "limited skill set"?
How did his "shitty attitude" manifest itself?
Flutie II would be okay, as his career numbers werent bad. He just never got the chance to have his team.
Murray may be better than Flutie but only in a less than traditional NFL offense.