Josina Anderson seems to think so. I posted it in the Kyler Murray thread below, but think it deserves it's own thread.
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2. |
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: I remember when it literally took hearing Baker Mayfield's name coming out of Roger Goodell's mouth draft night before folks believed what we'd been saying all day. Draft night gonna be so fun. |
If this is true I'd assume many teams will be offering picks for Rosen. I think the Giants would have be included in that. He's got a year of NFL experience. He just turned 22 and is only 3 months older then Haskins.
Has she heard something else or is she just repeating what was already discussed weeks ago?
Yup. I said it at the very beginning of this post. Sorry I'm taking up your bandwidth.
Has she heard something else or is she just repeating what was already discussed weeks ago?
Pretty sure this is new info. I've seen a few other people say the rumor has started picking up steam. He also just signed with Kliff Kingsbury's agent.
They aren't stuck. They have a QB who just went 10th overall in a strong QB class. There are many teams who need a QB. We'd offer our 2nd and get laughed out. While the Fins, Redskins, Jags, Broncos, Pats all offer something better.
Huge red flag that he doesn't fit the offense the Cardinals new HC wants to run?
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The Cards are stuck in this situation and would have to dump him. I would offer the second rounder and maybe a lower pick but thats it.
They aren't stuck. They have a QB who just went 10th overall in a strong QB class. There are many teams who need a QB. We'd offer our 2nd and get laughed out. While the Fins, Redskins, Jags, Broncos, Pats all offer something better.
Agreed. Unless were offering 6, wed have no shot. The thing we are assuming is DG being interested in acquiring Rosen. I would hope he would be. In fact, if he werent, to me it would fall under derogation of duty, which should be a fireable offense.
Rosen is fine. Id take him but not at that price. If the Dolphins want to blow their load for him go right ahead. IMO his ceiling just isnt big enough.
Rosen is fine. Id take him but not at that price. If the Dolphins want to blow their load for him go right ahead. IMO his ceiling just isnt big enough.
Rosen would start week 1. If Eli is still around you have an open competition. If you remove loyalty and sentimentality from the equation, which I realize is hard at Jints Central, Rosen likely beats Eli out.
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its fine if you want to look at everything as a positive but anyone dumping a top pick, at QB no less should at least raise concern. But hey lets ignore that and give them the 6th overall pick, make him nice and happy sitting on the bench in 2019, and then hope hes good enough in the next 2 years after to pay him.
Rosen is fine. Id take him but not at that price. If the Dolphins want to blow their load for him go right ahead. IMO his ceiling just isnt big enough.
Rosen would start week 1. If Eli is still around you have an open competition. If you remove loyalty and sentimentality from the equation, which I realize is hard at Jints Central, Rosen likely beats Eli out.
Wow, I felt so douchie writing jints central.
Rosen wouldn't sit the entire season unless Eli is carrying them to a playoff berth. While I'm confident in Eli's abilities with a proper OL, I have zero confidence in the Bettcher Boys.
We must also consider that Arizona would have to eat Rosen's signing bonus - $10.8M. While #6 seems steep, we could ask for their 2nd round pick. We would be able to still get quality rookies at the top of the 2nd and maybe move up into the bottom of the first if we package some late round picks.
Or next years #2 if they don't want to part with this years.
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and 2 cost controlled years gone unless you think Eli is getting cut in this scenario. Our 1st would be nuts. Offer a 2nd and add on other picks but a 1 is off the table.
Rosen wouldn't sit the entire season unless Eli is carrying them to a playoff berth. While I'm confident in Eli's abilities with a proper OL, I have zero confidence in the Bettcher Boys.
We must also consider that Arizona would have to eat Rosen's signing bonus - $10.8M. While #6 seems steep, we could ask for their 2nd round pick. We would be able to still get quality rookies at the top of the 2nd and maybe move up into the bottom of the first if we package some late round picks.
That's a good point about the signing bonus. Would make his cap hit very low.
Good. Glad you can admit when you're wrong.
They didn't. They hired a HC whose only coached college football and relies on a mobile QB. That's why they'd be drafting a mobile QB at 1.
That's not a negative on Rosen. He's a pure pocket passer. It would be smart for the Cardinals to not try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
He's only played one year. How are 2 cost controlled years gone? Because he likely starts the season behind Eli? So what. If he is the guy to replace Eli, then it is worth the pick. While I agree I'd offer the #2 first, I'd bet Wash, Jax, Denver and others would be in on him, so It will like take the #6 to get him - maybe they can get the Cards #3 back (I doubt it.)
OBJ for Rosen.....which should do it.....and the BBI crowd who was screaming for him...should be pleased with Him and Barkley.
I love watching OBJ but the Giants are Barkley team and I am not sure how well that will go longterm.
Did Rosen show anything ?
I get the arm, accuracy etc...but
I had a bunch of concern about lack of leadership, etc.....his team was the worst? Arizona giving up on him is a red flag...no?
OBJ for Rosen.....which should do it.....and the BBI crowd who was screaming for him...should be pleased with Him and Barkley.
I love watching OBJ but the Giants are Barkley team and I am not sure how well that will go longterm.
Did Rosen show anything ?
I get the arm, accuracy etc...but
I had a bunch of concern about lack of leadership, etc.....his team was the worst? Arizona giving up on him is a red flag...no?
Did you read the rest of the thread? If the HC wants to switch to a RPO type offense which requires a mobile QB, Rosen doesn't fit the bill and was the last group's choice. It is not a red flag - Rosen is a straight drop back QB.
He also proved to be durable which was a ?? before the draft. Not sure about his leadership - it is a legit question.
I know there is practically zero chance of it happening but it's fun to discuss
I don't want to argue anymore but here's my thoughts. I would have been ok trading back for Rosen last year, felt his upside was limited by his concussions, attitude, and lack of mobility. BBI members who are locked in also reported that he wasn't even in the conversation.
Fast forward to this year I dont think he's any better of a prospect thank Haskins and definitely not Murray if the size checks out (it won't but I still like him more). I'm also ready to try and break the mold at QB and don't need/want Eli 2.0.
So yeah, do with that what you will. If Rosen is such a no brainer the OC in Arizona would make it work. I'm not about to bail them out with the #6 overall pick.
David Johnson averaged 3.6 YPC. Their only WR is 35 years old. After that they don't have much. They have no TE. We can't really judge him playing for that team. No QB would have been successful.
Rosen was 3-10 as a starter. Eli Manning has a better OL, RB, WR1, WR2, WR3 and TE. Yet he went 5-11.
This is what PFF said about the Cardinals OL.
You dont have to be a douche if your incorrect or missused a phrase. The red flag on Rosen that you claim is non existent. New coach new regime new system he wants his own guy. Its as simple as that. If Rosen was in this class he would be right there with Haskins. To give up a 6 to get him is a deal that DG should not pass up. Give me the guy with a season of experience in the nfl. Hes shown he can play and the low ceiling you claim is just your opinion. Nfl scouts think otherwise. So again, dont be sensitive and have a normal discussion. If someon disagrees with you dont become a sarcastic prick. Your better off just removing yourself from the keyboard.
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I don't want to argue anymore but here's my thoughts. I would have been ok trading back for Rosen last year, felt his upside was limited by his concussions, attitude, and lack of mobility. BBI members who are locked in also reported that he wasn't even in the conversation.
Fast forward to this year I dont think he's any better of a prospect thank Haskins and definitely not Murray if the size checks out (it won't but I still like him more). I'm also ready to try and break the mold at QB and don't need/want Eli 2.0.
So yeah, do with that what you will. If Rosen is such a no brainer the OC in Arizona would make it work. I'm not about to bail them out with the #6 overall pick.
Your last paragraph is silly. If you are looking to run a RPO style offense, you cannot do it well with Rosen, no matter how much an OC wanted to make it work. While Rosen is much more mobile than Eli or Brady, why would you take a drop QB and make him run?
While I disagree with your assessment of Rosen and Haskins, your 2nd paragraph is the true crux of your not wanting Rosen. You want a different style QB. I won't disagree with you that a Russell Wilson/Pat Mahomes type would be my preferred QB at this point.
How did they get hired?
"We can coach this team but we are not committing to Rosen"....that wouldnt fly.
I did not see much of Arizona, but only way this happens is if the owners in Arizona are also soured by Rosen.
And that would be a major Red Flag.
Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
Doesn't really matter what any of us think of Rosen. What does Gettleman think? Did he like Rosen last year? And, if not, did anything happen to change his mind?
My guess is that the answers are "No" and "No".
the we in the room - ( New Window )
How did they get hired?
"We can coach this team but we are not committing to Rosen"....that wouldnt fly.
I did not see much of Arizona, but only way this happens is if the owners in Arizona are also soured by Rosen.
And that would be a major Red Flag.
Correct. Ive been completely transparent. I dont want another statue and I dont buy that a new OC has this much power. I wouldnt want an OC who can only work one way.
Fine if you guys disagree but stop acting like its some out of left field opinion.
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"Current conspiracy theory: Cardinals told Kyler Murray they'd draft him at No. 1 overall and trade Josh Rosen if he committed to football." Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
That doesn't make a lot of sense since Murray's also claimed to be participating in the combine. If he already has an assurance to go #1, why bother?
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In comment 14294096 Beer Man said:
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"Current conspiracy theory: Cardinals told Kyler Murray they'd draft him at No. 1 overall and trade Josh Rosen if he committed to football." Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
That doesn't make a lot of sense since Murray's also claimed to be participating in the combine. If he already has an assurance to go #1, why bother?
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In comment 14294096 Beer Man said:
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"Current conspiracy theory: Cardinals told Kyler Murray they'd draft him at No. 1 overall and trade Josh Rosen if he committed to football." Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
That doesn't make a lot of sense since Murray's also claimed to be participating in the combine. If he already has an assurance to go #1, why bother?
Maybe part of "committing to football" includes attending the combine
And HE is the savior???
Good lord....
SMH...
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Interesting - Chris Mara in speaking with Russo (re: the No. 2 pick): We liked the QBs, but the issue was we couldnt agree on which one. We all agreed on Barkley.[Schneier] (I wonder who each exec had as their QB1 and if anyone tried to push for him).
Doesn't really matter what any of us think of Rosen. What does Gettleman think? Did he like Rosen last year? And, if not, did anything happen to change his mind?
My guess is that the answers are "No" and "No".
the we in the room - ( New Window )
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Need a mobile QB....so it is ONLY a system fit issue...impossible.
How did they get hired?
"We can coach this team but we are not committing to Rosen"....that wouldnt fly.
I did not see much of Arizona, but only way this happens is if the owners in Arizona are also soured by Rosen.
And that would be a major Red Flag.
Correct. Ive been completely transparent. I dont want another statue and I dont buy that a new OC has this much power. I wouldnt want an OC who can only work one way.
Fine if you guys disagree but stop acting like its some out of left field opinion.
Aren't we talking about Kingbury, the head coach?
Could it be that they see Murray as a generational talent?
That and the fact they could get a decent return on Rosen makes it plausible.
If he is worth trading for, he is worth #6.
Sure you try to negotiate the best deal possible but squabbling over #6 vs #10 vs #15 makes no sense.
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Interesting - Chris Mara in speaking with Russo (re: the No. 2 pick): We liked the QBs, but the issue was we couldnt agree on which one. We all agreed on Barkley.[Schneier] (I wonder who each exec had as their QB1 and if anyone tried to push for him).
Doesn't really matter what any of us think of Rosen. What does Gettleman think? Did he like Rosen last year? And, if not, did anything happen to change his mind?
My guess is that the answers are "No" and "No".
the we in the room - ( New Window )
They liked him enough to have the owner have dinner with him. And the owner raved about the meeting.
Listen, if the Giants think Rosen is awesome than Id support it. But I doubt it. Apparently the only one even close to Barkley was Darnold which makes sense to me (add in Mayfield if he was a little taller). This isnt a no brainer though, Rosen rubs a lot of people the wrong way with how he carries himself and had several issues coming into the draft between that and concussions. Add in the fact that battling it out with Eli isnt something I can ever see happening.
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Interesting - Chris Mara in speaking with Russo (re: the No. 2 pick): We liked the QBs, but the issue was we couldnt agree on which one. We all agreed on Barkley.[Schneier] (I wonder who each exec had as their QB1 and if anyone tried to push for him).
Doesn't really matter what any of us think of Rosen. What does Gettleman think? Did he like Rosen last year? And, if not, did anything happen to change his mind?
My guess is that the answers are "No" and "No".
the we in the room - ( New Window )
They liked him enough to have the owner have dinner with him. And the owner raved about the meeting.
I dont recall reading about any other dinner engagements with other prospects last spring either.
Giants co-owner raves about private meeting with Josh Rosen - ( New Window )
You dont think Gettleman should throw his hat into the ring if by some chance this rumor has legs?
Its never happened before. I think we can justify doing it now. Its debatable how the team feels though.
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They should trade with. With Smith never playing again.... he is cheap, young and the type of QB they should go after. I see the trade between skins and cards.
You dont think Gettleman should throw his hat into the ring if by some chance this rumor has legs?
Nope. Sixth pick is too much for him.
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If you want Rosen you trade down than offer your number one pick for Rosen. If you can't trade down, no Rosen.
If he is worth trading for, he is worth #6.
Sure you try to negotiate the best deal possible but squabbling over #6 vs #10 vs #15 makes no sense.
I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
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In comment 14294123 dep026 said:
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They should trade with. With Smith never playing again.... he is cheap, young and the type of QB they should go after. I see the trade between skins and cards.
You dont think Gettleman should throw his hat into the ring if by some chance this rumor has legs?
Nope. Sixth pick is too much for him.
I disagree. To me, Rosen is significantly better than any QB in this draft and might be better than any prospect (in a mediocre draft as a whole) available at 6. If we could also get back their second rounder, its a complete no brainer in my opinion.
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In comment 14294115 wgenesis123 said:
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If you want Rosen you trade down than offer your number one pick for Rosen. If you can't trade down, no Rosen.
If he is worth trading for, he is worth #6.
Sure you try to negotiate the best deal possible but squabbling over #6 vs #10 vs #15 makes no sense.
I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
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In comment 14294117 ron mexico said:
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In comment 14294115 wgenesis123 said:
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If you want Rosen you trade down than offer your number one pick for Rosen. If you can't trade down, no Rosen.
If he is worth trading for, he is worth #6.
Sure you try to negotiate the best deal possible but squabbling over #6 vs #10 vs #15 makes no sense.
I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
QBs play longer than other positions. Say we trade for Rosen. Are we going to complain that we only had him for 14 years as opposed to 15??
Logic says if Arizona wants to move on, that the trading team would have the leverage... it would begin at #10 overall and trend down for compensation... not up.
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
JonC even alluded to it as not strong. You have maybe 3 legit blue chip prospects (Bosa, Williams, and perhaps Allen). After that, the talent levels off.
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Mediocre?
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
JonC even alluded to it as not strong. You have maybe 3 legit blue chip prospects (Bosa, Williams, and perhaps Allen). After that, the talent levels off.
Well then why would Arizona trade away a blue chip player for a player in a mediocre draft? Haha
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In comment 14294137 dep026 said:
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Mediocre?
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
JonC even alluded to it as not strong. You have maybe 3 legit blue chip prospects (Bosa, Williams, and perhaps Allen). After that, the talent levels off.
Well then why would Arizona trade away a blue chip player for a player in a mediocre draft? Haha
Nobody said it would be a smart move by Arizona to take Murray and trade Rosen.
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In comment 14294137 dep026 said:
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Mediocre?
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
JonC even alluded to it as not strong. You have maybe 3 legit blue chip prospects (Bosa, Williams, and perhaps Allen). After that, the talent levels off.
Well then why would Arizona trade away a blue chip player for a player in a mediocre draft? Haha
because the would be getting what they see as a generational talent in Murray.
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In comment 14294145 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14294137 dep026 said:
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Mediocre?
There are a lot of very good edge rushers and OL. The two position we are in dire need of?
JonC even alluded to it as not strong. You have maybe 3 legit blue chip prospects (Bosa, Williams, and perhaps Allen). After that, the talent levels off.
Well then why would Arizona trade away a blue chip player for a player in a mediocre draft? Haha
Nobody said it would be a smart move by Arizona to take Murray and trade Rosen.
In such an event, the NYG would be looking to capitalize on Arizonas stupidity.
Logic says if Arizona wants to move on, that the trading team would have the leverage... it would begin at #10 overall and trend down for compensation... not up.
Last years draft was much stronger up top.
You can't judge him off of what he did last year. The worst supporting cast in the NFL and it isn't particularly close. Yet his record and Eli's wasn't very far off.
Again, why would he sit? Take sentimentality and loyalty out of the equation, which might be hard, what makes you certain Eli beats out Rosen?
Well thats the great part, he wouldn't have to. Clearly if this trade happens they would move on from Eli.
He made it through a year with a worse line than the Giants and the owners described him as "very charismatic young man"
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
it means at the very least that they thought enough of him as a football player to have both owners meet with him.
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A QB a team doesnt want and not upgrading in positions in dire need? In which this draft is strong in??
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
Umm how can you trade for something that you cant guarantee will be there?
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In comment 14294158 dep026 said:
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A QB a team doesnt want and not upgrading in positions in dire need? In which this draft is strong in??
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
Umm how can you trade for something that you cant guarantee will be there?
You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
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In comment 14294158 dep026 said:
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A QB a team doesnt want and not upgrading in positions in dire need? In which this draft is strong in??
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
Umm how can you trade for something that you cant guarantee will be there?
Quality players along the OL are always present in the top half of the 2nd round. Its about as close to a guarantee as there is.
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In comment 14294164 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14294158 dep026 said:
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A QB a team doesnt want and not upgrading in positions in dire need? In which this draft is strong in??
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
Umm how can you trade for something that you cant guarantee will be there?
Quality players along the OL are always present in the top half of the 2nd round. Its about as close to a guarantee as there is.
and either way, it clearly wouldn't be part of the trade.
Almost as skillful of those that find any reason possible to move on from Eli, even if it means making a shitty trade or forcing a pick.
Comments like this bring down the value of the site. This makes the poster look like a child.
You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Actually buddy... I was ready to move on last year so stop making up shit cause you dont know your head from your ass.
What I dont want to do is overpay and give up assets on rebuilding the team. This draft has the capabilities of filling our huge holes on ER and RT... two positions we desperately need.
So how about this. Shut the fuck up with this Eli nonsense already. Nobody here is arguing to keep him. We are arguing about not making bone headed decisions. Which is something you continue to want to make. And thats what is remarkable.
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In comment 14294164 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14294158 dep026 said:
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A QB a team doesnt want and not upgrading in positions in dire need? In which this draft is strong in??
QB isnt a dire need as well here?
Hows this scenario?
We get Rosen and 33 for our 6.
We then double up OL in the 2nd round.
I like it.
Umm how can you trade for something that you cant guarantee will be there?
Quality players along the OL are always present in the top half of the 2nd round. Its about as close to a guarantee as there is.
Why settle for the potential of quality when you have the chance of a potential blue chipper?
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You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Actually buddy... I was ready to move on last year so stop making up shit cause you dont know your head from your ass.
What I dont want to do is overpay and give up assets on rebuilding the team. This draft has the capabilities of filling our huge holes on ER and RT... two positions we desperately need.
So how about this. Shut the fuck up with this Eli nonsense already. Nobody here is arguing to keep him. We are arguing about not making bone headed decisions. Which is something you continue to want to make. And thats what is remarkable.
Rosen and 33 for 6 isnt a boneheaded decision in my opinion. Nobody knows what DG is planning in FA, which hasnt been mentioned here. Perhaps he doesnt completely shit the bed like he did last year?
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You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Almost as skillful of those that find any reason possible to move on from Eli, even if it means making a shitty trade or forcing a pick.
Is that directed at me? If so you don't need to use the vague "those"
The reasons to move on are pretty concrete and not really far fetched. Age, recent performance and state of the team.
As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
Trading the #6 for Rosen, #33 and $10 mil of prepaid signing bonus sounds like a fair deal to me.
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You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Actually buddy... I was ready to move on last year so stop making up shit cause you dont know your head from your ass.
What I dont want to do is overpay and give up assets on rebuilding the team. This draft has the capabilities of filling our huge holes on ER and RT... two positions we desperately need.
So how about this. Shut the fuck up with this Eli nonsense already. Nobody here is arguing to keep him. We are arguing about not making bone headed decisions. Which is something you continue to want to make. And thats what is remarkable.
yeah right, you are not arguing to keep him. Its just that every single other option just happens to be trash.
Murry or Haskins? I cant see anyway they Giants take Murray.
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You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Almost as skillful of those that find any reason possible to move on from Eli, even if it means making a shitty trade or forcing a pick.
Is that directed at me? If so you don't need to use the vague "those"
The reasons to move on are pretty concrete and not really far fetched. Age, recent performance and state of the team.
As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
Trading the #6 for Rosen, #33 and $10 mil of prepaid signing bonus sounds like a fair deal to me.
A team trading for Rosen will be getting him for 1 million and change for most of his rookie deal and forgoing paying him his signing bonus. Having a franchise QB locked in for less than what your paying the Long Snapper is a serious advantage to building an overall better team
yeah right, you are not arguing to keep him. Its just that every single other option just happens to be trash.
Building a better OLine and getting an edge rusher is trash???
Great insight like usual. Dont ever change.
I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradfords first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasnt getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So its not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
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yeah right, you are not arguing to keep him. Its just that every single other option just happens to be trash.
Building a better OLine and getting an edge rusher is trash???
Great insight like usual. Dont ever change.
I'm clearly talking about the other QB options.
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I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradfords first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasnt getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So its not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
Bridgewater helped his team get to the playoffs? Outside of starting the final game of the season, which they loss and had no bearing on anything, he threw a single pass.
I am ambivalent about doing so. Rosen has beautiful mechanics and accuracy. He also had no chance in Arizona as many have noted, and his contract is cheap for the next few years. But it is a top 10 pick, and he has an injury history.
But it is probably moot, because I doubt DG would make that trade. I assume if they were going to do so, then it would happen before they have to pay Eli his $5 million roster bonus.
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I dont see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But hes not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradfords first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasnt getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So its not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
Ok, you want some more examples?
Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland. Traded for 17th overall (Dre Kirkpatrick) and 2013 2nd rounder (Giovani Bernard) on October 18, 2011.
Jay Cutler (and 5th round pick) from Denver to Chicago. Traded for 18th overall pick (Robert Ayers), 3rd round pick (Mike Wallace), 2010 1st round pick (#11 Anthony Davis) and Kyle Orton, April 2, 2009.
History of Quarterbacks Traded for First Round Picks - ( New Window )
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I am ambivalent about doing so. Rosen has beautiful mechanics and accuracy. He also had no chance in Arizona as many have noted, and his contract is cheap for the next few years. But it is a top 10 pick, and he has an injury history.
But it is probably moot, because I doubt DG would make that trade. I assume if they were going to do so, then it would happen before they have to pay Eli his $5 million roster bonus.
The great thing on Rosen is the Giants thoroughly scouted and interviewed him last year. And they have a whole year of NFL tape to see if they saw enough flashes despite poor talent around him (and possibly system too) to believe if he is a worthy successor to Eli. There will be alot more projection with the top of this class and the highest upside guy (Murray) is not the Giants prototype for what they like for a Qb size-wise.
Right now if they are OK with him character wise, I take him over this entire class (but I do like Haskins closely followed by Lock).
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I'm not saying Rosen's rookie year is somehow confirmation that he will have the same career as Eli or even a successful career. I'm just saying to dismiss Rosen as a long term prospect simply because he had a poor rookie season makes no sense, especially considering who he had to work with. If we had applied the same logic to Eli, we don't win two SBs. Rosen coming out was considered the most polished QB in the draft. The real question marks were character and health. Considering that he seemed to be a good citizen despite getting pummeled by a woeful OL, he partially answered the character question to my mind. Health? Who knows. But he didn't have any concussions and he held up physically better than Darnold.
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
Thats not what people are saying at all.
People are saying that a shaky rookie year doesn't mean that they can't still have a great career.
Nice straw man though
I think it would be great to give our #6 for him. I'd feel a lot better about this than our #6 for Haskins or Lock.
But how funny would it be if AZ wanted Murray, but felt they could get him lower in the 1st RD AND get a team (like the Giants) to overpay for Rosen with a 1st and an 2nd.
AZ takes a non-QB with the #1 overall (Bosa?)
The Giants knowing that AZ wants Murray takes him at 6 overall and holds AZ's feet to the fire forcing them to reduce their asking price.
In the end AZ gets both Bosa and Murray... and the Giants trade their #1 (and nothing more) for Rosen.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
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As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
I for one am not saying this season is toast. I certainly think if we strengthen the OL, become a run centric team, and allow Eli time and to use play action more, this offense can be successful. It certainly was the second half of the season. However, at some point we do need Eli's replacement. I think we will be too good to be in a position to draft one of the better QBs in next year's draft and the year after. So if we don't get a QB this draft, we are looking to sign a FA, and unfortunately the NFL is littered with examples of team's overpaying marginal QBs in FA.
Well so much for that.
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As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
who said that if we don't pick a QB that the season will be lost?
Strawmans on top of strawmans....its like a strawman dog pile in here
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
Ok, you want some more examples?
Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland. Traded for 17th overall (Dre Kirkpatrick) and 2013 2nd rounder (Giovani Bernard) on October 18, 2011.
Jay Cutler (and 5th round pick) from Denver to Chicago. Traded for 18th overall pick (Robert Ayers), 3rd round pick (Mike Wallace), 2010 1st round pick (#11 Anthony Davis) and Kyle Orton, April 2, 2009.
History of Quarterbacks Traded for First Round Picks - ( New Window )
Those aren't really examples that are pertinent - you know that. Those are apples to oranges.
You are adding QBs who produced at a high level in the League.
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is cut and dried:
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I'm not saying Rosen's rookie year is somehow confirmation that he will have the same career as Eli or even a successful career. I'm just saying to dismiss Rosen as a long term prospect simply because he had a poor rookie season makes no sense, especially considering who he had to work with. If we had applied the same logic to Eli, we don't win two SBs. Rosen coming out was considered the most polished QB in the draft. The real question marks were character and health. Considering that he seemed to be a good citizen despite getting pummeled by a woeful OL, he partially answered the character question to my mind. Health? Who knows. But he didn't have any concussions and he held up physically better than Darnold.
He had probably the least favorable situation in the entire NFL from a Qb standpoint. Horrible offensive line, not great WRs , potentially weak offensive system/coaching. Despite all that he still flashed skills and tremendous accuracy and ability to read a defense at times. Put him in the right situation he probably has a Goff like jump to his second season.
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
Agreed 100 percent. I don't think the Giants need a Top 10 QB with SB as the centerpiece. Get the OL together. Build a strong D. Have the QB as a complimentary piece
He plays nothing like Vick. Black, runs, definitely Vick.
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
QB is one of the tougher positions to find and are at a heavy premium. If we have the opportunity to get our QB of the future with our #6 pick either via trade or drafting him outright now is the time to do it. We passed up some potentially pretty good ones lastt year and now Eli is a year older and on the last year of his contract.
We are an OL or two away from a very strong offense. We hopefully can use FA to shape the D with players that fit Bettcher's vision. Vernon likely to be let go if I had to guess. Never really lived up to the contract, getting older and somewhat injury prone. Vets also wont have the rookie learning curve. Lots of DEs potentially available in FA and some good LBs too.
But I do believe any of Foles, Rosen, Haskins or Lock are guys you can win a Super Bowl with (or eventually win with). Therefore worth the money and/or top pick.
We could have a high pick in 2020 if we suck, but it could also be in the teens or 20s, in which case, then we are talking about severely mortgaging the future for the 2020 QB.
We have the 6th pick now. We can either take a QB here, or trade up a few slots which would not take a 1st in all likelihood (unless we moved all the way up to #1). We know what our situation is now, and that there probably QBs that we could target with our selection here. It would be really dumb, in my opinion, to take a defensive end instead of a really good QB prospect.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
We've seen quite a few drafts where the guy picked there is better than the ones teams fall in love with at the top of the draft.
Obviously yes, that is the case. But you have to take risks and you have to get a stud QB if you have conviction on him. If he ends up sucking...well....that could happen. It could happen with any player. If every team thought this way, nobody would ever take a QB high. Everyone keeps making excuses for not taking a QB instead of just taking a QB! It's getting ridiculous. We are never going to find the absolutely perfect QB prospect.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
Is it really any different from missing on any first round pick?
This team is where it, partly because we whiffed on Flowers, and to a slightly lesser extent, Apple
We've seen quite a few drafts where the guy picked there is better than the ones teams fall in love with at the top of the draft.
That's true...but in today's NFL, the cost to trade up is really high, and teams don't like risking to wait around for that QB to fall to them. For example...let's say our pick next year is 16. You think Gettleman is going to sit and wait especially if we passed on the QBs this year?
Every year, half the playoff teams rotate in and out. And even the great QB's (except for Brady) miss the postseason sometimes. Rivers missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Brees missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 while the team had a historically bad D. Cam Newton misses the playoffs as much as he makes them. This past season, 7 out of the top 8 highest paid QB's missed the playoffs.
Eli's ending his run, but a strong team will help mitigate that transition regardless of who teh QB is. When Romo went down, Prescott was able to still take the team to the playoffs, not because he's a great QB, but because they have the best OL. Bortles rode a suffocating D to the AFC Championship game. Case Keenum took the Vikings there. Pretty much any QB in Andy Reid's system gets them there and then quickly exits.
What we have is an aging QB, but we also have a pretty bad team.
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its fine if you want to look at everything as a positive but anyone dumping a top pick, at QB no less should at least raise concern. But hey lets ignore that and give them the 6th overall pick, make him nice and happy sitting on the bench in 2019, and then hope hes good enough in the next 2 years after to pay him.
Rosen is fine. Id take him but not at that price. If the Dolphins want to blow their load for him go right ahead. IMO his ceiling just isnt big enough.
Rosen would start week 1. If Eli is still around you have an open competition. If you remove loyalty and sentimentality from the equation, which I realize is hard at Jints Central, Rosen likely beats Eli out.
Likely beats out Eli? Oh really?
Bingo, if the Giants give up #6 for Rosen they are the worst franchise in sports. But its not happening because Murray isnt going #1
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
How often do you get to evaluate a years worth of game film on a player like this ?
The Giants will know with more certainty if they think that Rosen has the ability to become their QB of the future
If the answer is positive then the Giants should make a deal
The economics are excellent
The CAP impact is minimal its like getting a first round pick for third round dollars
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Rosen had no chance. That oline played most of the year like they were drunk or suffered vertigo. I think it was easily the worst in the NFL.
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
Interesting or ironic? The problem is bw has made it abundantly clear he does not like and has never liked Eli because of the way he handled the draft. It's difficult to believe that this does not color all of his opinions on this issue
Why should the Giants aspire to any of these low-ceiling team building examples?
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
Draft round only matters for the players' first contract. Those 3 teams pay their QBs top $$ (though in TBs case much of it is under the table). GB should be in that mix too since it took an AR injury to keep them out of the postseason last year.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
And while they haven't seen the same sustained success, I'd put the Saints and Colts as "high-ceiling" teams too. Brees/Luck can absolutely carry their teams to the SB like Eli did twice.
Dak (Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins) needs to play turnover free and ride the D/running game. Much less margin for error with a QB like that.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
It's not about what round they are drafted, it's about not settling for adequate QB play. Hell, I'm halfway on the Stidham bandwagon if the Giants want a latter round QB.
And yes, those three teams you listed, along with the Chiefs, Colts, and Rams (though I don't love Goff), have higher ceilings, because having a great QB provides more sustainable year-to-year offensive performance.
I'm talking about sustained success. Goff is an interesting case. Will he elevate the Rams or will he rest and fall on the talent level around him.
I'm pointing out the rounds of Wilson and Brady because it seems to be taken as fact here that if we don't draft a QB high in the 1st round, and likely have to trade up to do so, we can't be successful.
But how funny would it be if AZ wanted Murray, but felt they could get him lower in the 1st RD AND get a team (like the Giants) to overpay for Rosen with a 1st and an 2nd.
AZ takes a non-QB with the #1 overall (Bosa?)
The Giants knowing that AZ wants Murray takes him at 6 overall and holds AZ's feet to the fire forcing them to reduce their asking price.
In the end AZ gets both Bosa and Murray... and the Giants trade their #1 (and nothing more) for Rosen.
Or for Bosa????
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
The Pats had Drew Bledsoe whom they took with the #1 pick in Draft and then signed to the largest contract in NFL History over 100 million dollars when they drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round
The Seahawks had just signed Matt Flynn in free agency to a 3 yr 21 mil deal contract which was pretty good money at the time. He was pretty well thought of then as Rodgers back up and he was coming to Seattle to be the man when they drafted Wilson in the 3rd round
The point being- neither the Pats nor the Seahawks made drafting mid to low rd QBs their plan. They had other irons in the fire and their lower round risks them paid off and knocked the other guys out of the picture.
The Steelers had the Kordell Stewarts, Tommy Maddoxs and Kent Grahams of the world before they finally took the risk on a high end QB in Big Ben at 12 and low and behold moved into a team that couldnt win to a perennial contender and a team that won 2 SBs and went to a 3rd.
Even Ben hasn't made the playoffs 6 years in a row.
By the way, the Steelers D has been ranked in the Top 5 NINE times in Ben's career. Being ranked #1 by yards and points FIVE times!!
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Rosen had no chance. That oline played most of the year like they were drunk or suffered vertigo. I think it was easily the worst in the NFL.
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
He's a rookie. I expect more from Eli despite the OL struggles. He's a 15 year veteran.
And I'm likely one of the few on this board who thinks 30-40% of Eli's sacks are on him, and not on the line. Eli's fastball, if you will, has always been his ability to read defenses. I think he's lost some MPH on that fastball and doesn't read defenses as well as he used to. So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
I'm talking about sustained success. Goff is an interesting case. Will he elevate the Rams or will he rest and fall on the talent level around him.
I'm pointing out the rounds of Wilson and Brady because it seems to be taken as fact here that if we don't draft a QB high in the 1st round, and likely have to trade up to do so, we can't be successful.
Colts had plenty of sustained success before Luck's injuries and unsurprisingly returned to the postseason this year with a healthy Luck.
I'll take the over on that. My man Eli is playing 2 hand touch back there.
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So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
Maybe my memory is going as I grow older but I seem to recall quite a few jail break sacks.
Also, FMIC don't forget he lead in that category despite significantly improve line play the second half of the season
"Cardinals president Michael Bidwill shot down speculation about the team selecting Kyler Murray with the No. 1 overall pick.
Considering new coach Kliff Kingsbury said he would select Murray "with the first pick in the draft, if I could" when he was still at Texas Tech back in October, the speculation linking Murray to the Cardinals is fair, but Bidwill clearly knocked it down. "Theres always a lot of speculation that turns out to not be true," Bidwill said. "But moving forward, were going to continue to build this team and build around the foundation that we have." Bidwill also said he is not worried about the speculation affecting Josh Rosen, the No. 10 overall pick last year. The Cardinals might not draft him, but it would be a surprise if Murray falls out of the top-15."
Prior to him missing the season, the Colts made the playoffs 3 seasons and missed the playoffs 2 seasons. Is that really sustained?
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Colts had plenty of sustained success before Luck's injuries
Prior to him missing the season, the Colts made the playoffs 3 seasons and missed the playoffs 2 seasons. Is that really sustained?
He started the first 48 games of his career and made the postseason all 3 seasons. Year 4, he missed 2 games with a shoulder injury and then suffered a lacerated kidney and partially torn ab muscle and missed the remainder of the season.
2016 is the only "full" season he played (missed 1 game due to a concussion) in which the Colts missed the postseason. And he played that entire season with a lingering shoulder injury that required surgery and subsequently cost him the 2017 season.
So yes, the Colts with a healthy Luck had sustained success.
Again - the sustained success is overstated
"Cardinals president Michael Bidwill shot down speculation about the team selecting Kyler Murray with the No. 1 overall pick.
Considering new coach Kliff Kingsbury said he would select Murray "with the first pick in the draft, if I could" when he was still at Texas Tech back in October, the speculation linking Murray to the Cardinals is fair, but Bidwill clearly knocked it down. "Theres always a lot of speculation that turns out to not be true," Bidwill said. "But moving forward, were going to continue to build this team and build around the foundation that we have." Bidwill also said he is not worried about the speculation affecting Josh Rosen, the No. 10 overall pick last year. The Cardinals might not draft him, but it would be a surprise if Murray falls out of the top-15."
Its much more likely this is true than the original report has any validity.
Again - the sustained success is overstated
Didn't he start this year 2-5? He also hurt his shoulder in week 3 at which point they were 1-2.
Keep grasping at straws.
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So that's leading to more indecision; and, therefore, more sacks.
Interesting
I think Eli's decision making is definitely in play and can skew that stat - yes.
At the same time, that stat may also reflect why it's more important than ever to get a younger, more athletic QB. Improvisation is an asset that this team absolutely needs. And Eli is the complete antithesis of that...
Keep grasping at straws.
the Colts were 2-5 in his 7 starts in 2015.
Is that grasping at straws or hoping that they'd overcome the traditional less than 5% odds to make the playoffs after starting 2-5??
It just gives your team a better chance of making the playoffs every year than a journeyman QB, since team defense is less reliable year-to-year.
On top of that, a great QB increases your odds of making a deep playoff run.
How many journeymen QBs have won superbowls during the last 20 years? Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and Nick Foles basically.
Obviously, the idea isn't that you de-emphasize defense and hope that a great offense carries you, but that you establish a great offense, centered on the QB, and hope you can capitalize on the years that your defense is upper echelon.
Ultimately, I still love Rosen and would deal the #6 for Rosen and AZs third round pick. That gets us back into the third and gets us our QB of the future and, really, the present, because we should start him immediately at that point.
Thats not true at all.
I Just find it odd that some here are so quick to give the rookie a pass because of the issues surrounding him but Elis efforts are deemed unacceptable.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
PUHLEZE!!!
Death spiral? Holy Hyperbole Fatman!
Missing on a QB with your 1st pick is no worse than missing any other position with a high pick. There's still a stupid commitment from the FO to "make the pick work" even if he stinks to high heaven. See Flowers, Eric or Apple, Eli.
Now if you've traded a 2, and next year's 1 & 2 picks to move up for said QB, you've created a holler.
But Reese has been high missing picks for a couple of years now, and really came up with scratch from round 3 on in like forever.
But death spiral? LOL.
Part of the reason we are in this position is because Reese missed on entire year's of drafts, including on first round picks.
When that happens at the QB position, look what happens.
Just look at failed QB's taken high. or just look at 2015. Drafting Winston hasn't panned out for the Bucs and they are treading water and still seem tied to keeping him, furthering their predicament.
Meanwhile when a Kevin White at WR doesn't pan out at #7 for the Bears, it may hurt them, but not to the extent wasting years on Winston will.
And that's with a QB with a modicum of success.
Jax spent 4 years trying to rely on Bortles - and hell, they go to a championship game and replace him the next season
The Redskins and Dolphins have been treading water since selecting RGIII and Tannehill. And just like we lament NYG's terrible run, if you don't think those teams are in a poor position, I don't know what to say.
A missed QB will put you in a hole for 4-5 years as the team muscles through their rookie contract.
Is that really disputable?
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In comment 14294096 Beer Man said:
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"Current conspiracy theory: Cardinals told Kyler Murray they'd draft him at No. 1 overall and trade Josh Rosen if he committed to football." Matt Miller - ( New Window )
Where there is smoke......
That doesn't make a lot of sense since Murray's also claimed to be participating in the combine. If he already has an assurance to go #1, why bother?
If he didn't sign a contract saying he's the #1 overall pick then there's always going to be doubt. He might as well go to the combine he has nothing to lose and he's probably going to measure well in every category other than the size-related ones.
I Just find it odd that some here are so quick to give the rookie a pass because of the issues surrounding him but Elis efforts are deemed unacceptable.
You find this odd? You find it odd that a 15 year vet making 22+ million a year is held to a different standard then a rookie QB playing on the worst offense in the league? The Giants are better in every facet of offense. RB, WR, TE and OL. Yet Eli sucked. You think Eli's numbers would be much different then Rosen if Eli played for the Cardinals?
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But death spiral? LOL.
Part of the reason we are in this position is because Reese missed on entire year's of drafts, including on first round picks.
When that happens at the QB position, look what happens.
Just look at failed QB's taken high. or just look at 2015. Drafting Winston hasn't panned out for the Bucs and they are treading water and still seem tied to keeping him, furthering their predicament.
Meanwhile when a Kevin White at WR doesn't pan out at #7 for the Bears, it may hurt them, but not to the extent wasting years on Winston will.
And that's with a QB with a modicum of success.
Jax spent 4 years trying to rely on Bortles - and hell, they go to a championship game and replace him the next season
The Redskins and Dolphins have been treading water since selecting RGIII and Tannehill. And just like we lament NYG's terrible run, if you don't think those teams are in a poor position, I don't know what to say.
A missed QB will put you in a hole for 4-5 years as the team muscles through their rookie contract.
Is that really disputable?
The redskins have had more success since drafting RG3 than we have in the same time frame.
They are in a tough spot now because of the injury to Cousins, but that could happen to any team and they could still easily have a better season than the Giants next year.
I know how clerical errors trigger you
It's too early to make any conclusions about Darnold, Allen, Rosen, and Jackson. They were rookies on bad teams.
As far as this year, I'd prefer not to take a QB at #6, but I also think it's probably moot because I expect Haskins and Lock to be taken before our pick. I don't think DG will trade up for either. Nor should he.
Jones won't last until the second round. I also don't think the Giants will take Grier or Finley, although the latter is certainly more likely. That leaves another day three QB (Cornelius?) as a possibility, which will certainly elicit understandable groans from the BBI faithful. Or maybe a trade for Sloter.
I'm typically not a fan of trading out of the top 10, especially this year since we have a ton of day three picks. But it might well be a possibility. Extra draft capital next year could be used to move up to get a QB. This draft is loaded with OL and DL, which is just what we need. Maybe trade down and take Ford.
The Vikings have still won their division twice since drafting Ponder....hardly a death spiral.
QB is the most important position on the field and if you miss on a top 10 pick QB it has lasting consequences. It's not about waiting for the perfect prospect, it's about making sure you get the right guy. There have been many failed 1st round QBs (more failures than successes) actually so it is smart to be careful with which one you take. You say we need to get someone for Shurmur to "develop"... he can't just develop anyone into a star starter, otherwise our future QB would already be on the roster and his name would be Kyle Lauletta. Positive thinking isn't going to win games, picking the right QB is. You can't just take a QB just to take one. We need to hit on this #6 pick regardless of the position. We missed on Flowers and Apple with top 10 picks and it set this franchise back half a decade.
It is funny that in almost any sport you talk about the highest upside guys being graded the highest but you have incredibly high upside guys like Russel Wilson fall because of a singular physical characteristic. Even someone like Donald, just an absolute beast falls. Rodgers was a dynamite prospect that was graded down for being 6'2.
If Beckham or Cooks were taller they would have gone higher.
For some reason teams seem more willing to risk sub par stats than sub par height.
It's odd.
Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
I wouldn't expect him to say anything else.
Quote:
Bob McManaman
@azbobbymac
48m
Kliff Kingsbury in QB Josh Rosen amid Kyler Murray speculation: Josh is our guy.
I wouldn't expect him to say anything else.
Agreed.
Great post 👍🏻
You have coined Management Hell.
I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona picks Murray. He's head and shoulders above Rosen. Regardless of Murray's size, his dynamic skill set is intriguing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona picks Murray. He's head and shoulders above Rosen. Regardless of Murray's size, his dynamic skill set is intriguing.
What's Rosen's "limited skill set"?
How did his "shitty attitude" manifest itself?
Flutie II would be okay, as his career numbers werent bad. He just never got the chance to have his team.
Murray may be better than Flutie but only in a less than traditional NFL offense.