Josina Anderson seems to think so. I posted it in the Kyler Murray thread below, but think it deserves it's own thread.
| Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2. |
| Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: I remember when it literally took hearing Baker Mayfield's name coming out of Roger Goodell's mouth draft night before folks believed what we'd been saying all day. Draft night gonna be so fun. |
If this is true I'd assume many teams will be offering picks for Rosen. I think the Giants would have be included in that. He's got a year of NFL experience. He just turned 22 and is only 3 months older then Haskins.
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You really have a skill at finding any reason possible to not move on from Eli. Its quite remarkable.
Almost as skillful of those that find any reason possible to move on from Eli, even if it means making a shitty trade or forcing a pick.
Is that directed at me? If so you don't need to use the vague "those"
The reasons to move on are pretty concrete and not really far fetched. Age, recent performance and state of the team.
As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
Trading the #6 for Rosen, #33 and $10 mil of prepaid signing bonus sounds like a fair deal to me.
A team trading for Rosen will be getting him for 1 million and change for most of his rookie deal and forgoing paying him his signing bonus. Having a franchise QB locked in for less than what your paying the Long Snapper is a serious advantage to building an overall better team
yeah right, you are not arguing to keep him. Its just that every single other option just happens to be trash.
Building a better OLine and getting an edge rusher is trash???
Great insight like usual. Don’t ever change.
I don’t see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But he’s not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradford’s first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasn’t getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So it’s not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
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yeah right, you are not arguing to keep him. Its just that every single other option just happens to be trash.
Building a better OLine and getting an edge rusher is trash???
Great insight like usual. Don’t ever change.
I'm clearly talking about the other QB options.
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I don’t see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But he’s not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradford’s first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasn’t getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So it’s not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
Bridgewater helped his team get to the playoffs? Outside of starting the final game of the season, which they loss and had no bearing on anything, he threw a single pass.
I am ambivalent about doing so. Rosen has beautiful mechanics and accuracy. He also had no chance in Arizona as many have noted, and his contract is cheap for the next few years. But it is a top 10 pick, and he has an injury history.
But it is probably moot, because I doubt DG would make that trade. I assume if they were going to do so, then it would happen before they have to pay Eli his $5 million roster bonus.
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I don’t see that. After they are drafted and start playing, most rookie QBs depreciate like new cars.
I like Rosen and understand that he played for a horrible team last year. But he’s not worth a first round selection. There are still question marks. Fair value is probably a second.
History shows thats not true at all. QBs value go up or hold steady if they can show they are even mildly capable. Look at what guys like Sam Bradford fetched. Even Teddy Bridgewater fetched a 3rd.
I think, and keep me honest, the compensation for Bradford was driven by desperation. The Vikings were out in the cold when Bridgewater got spaghetti knee. So that was distorted by circumstances. And I think the comp for Bradford’s first trade to Philly did NOT involve a first rounder...
Bridgewater for a three made some sense. At least he played and had success getting his team to the playoffs.
What has Rosen done? Nothing yet. I watched a few Cards games this year off and one because I wanted to see him play. I liked what I saw when he wasn’t getting plastered. But the resume is incomplete. So it’s not even close for me - a second rounder tops.
Ok, you want some more examples?
Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland. Traded for 17th overall (Dre Kirkpatrick) and 2013 2nd rounder (Giovani Bernard) on October 18, 2011.
Jay Cutler (and 5th round pick) from Denver to Chicago. Traded for 18th overall pick (Robert Ayers), 3rd round pick (Mike Wallace), 2010 1st round pick (#11 Anthony Davis) and Kyle Orton, April 2, 2009.
History of Quarterbacks Traded for First Round Picks - ( New Window )
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I am ambivalent about doing so. Rosen has beautiful mechanics and accuracy. He also had no chance in Arizona as many have noted, and his contract is cheap for the next few years. But it is a top 10 pick, and he has an injury history.
But it is probably moot, because I doubt DG would make that trade. I assume if they were going to do so, then it would happen before they have to pay Eli his $5 million roster bonus.
The great thing on Rosen is the Giants thoroughly scouted and interviewed him last year. And they have a whole year of NFL tape to see if they saw enough flashes despite poor talent around him (and possibly system too) to believe if he is a worthy successor to Eli. There will be alot more projection with the top of this class and the highest upside guy (Murray) is not the Giants prototype for what they like for a Qb size-wise.
Right now if they are OK with him character wise, I take him over this entire class (but I do like Haskins closely followed by Lock).
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I'm not saying Rosen's rookie year is somehow confirmation that he will have the same career as Eli or even a successful career. I'm just saying to dismiss Rosen as a long term prospect simply because he had a poor rookie season makes no sense, especially considering who he had to work with. If we had applied the same logic to Eli, we don't win two SBs. Rosen coming out was considered the most polished QB in the draft. The real question marks were character and health. Considering that he seemed to be a good citizen despite getting pummeled by a woeful OL, he partially answered the character question to my mind. Health? Who knows. But he didn't have any concussions and he held up physically better than Darnold.
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
Thats not what people are saying at all.
People are saying that a shaky rookie year doesn't mean that they can't still have a great career.
Nice straw man though
I think it would be great to give our #6 for him. I'd feel a lot better about this than our #6 for Haskins or Lock.
But how funny would it be if AZ wanted Murray, but felt they could get him lower in the 1st RD AND get a team (like the Giants) to overpay for Rosen with a 1st and an 2nd.
AZ takes a non-QB with the #1 overall (Bosa?)
The Giants knowing that AZ wants Murray takes him at 6 overall and holds AZ's feet to the fire forcing them to reduce their asking price.
In the end AZ gets both Bosa and Murray... and the Giants trade their #1 (and nothing more) for Rosen.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
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As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
I for one am not saying this season is toast. I certainly think if we strengthen the OL, become a run centric team, and allow Eli time and to use play action more, this offense can be successful. It certainly was the second half of the season. However, at some point we do need Eli's replacement. I think we will be too good to be in a position to draft one of the better QBs in next year's draft and the year after. So if we don't get a QB this draft, we are looking to sign a FA, and unfortunately the NFL is littered with examples of team's overpaying marginal QBs in FA.
Well so much for that.
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As for forcing a pick and bad trades, thats pretty subjective. Jets fans dont think they forced the pick. Haskins at 6 wouldn't be forcing the pick.
If Darnold turns out to be mediocre, the Jets not only forced the pick, but they also made a bad trade. If Haskins doesn't pan out, he most definitely will have been a forced pick.
The straw man is actually that we have to pick a QB now and if we don't, the season is toast.
Panic rarely results in success.
who said that if we don't pick a QB that the season will be lost?
Strawmans on top of strawmans....its like a strawman dog pile in here
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
Ok, you want some more examples?
Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland. Traded for 17th overall (Dre Kirkpatrick) and 2013 2nd rounder (Giovani Bernard) on October 18, 2011.
Jay Cutler (and 5th round pick) from Denver to Chicago. Traded for 18th overall pick (Robert Ayers), 3rd round pick (Mike Wallace), 2010 1st round pick (#11 Anthony Davis) and Kyle Orton, April 2, 2009.
History of Quarterbacks Traded for First Round Picks - ( New Window )
Those aren't really examples that are pertinent - you know that. Those are apples to oranges.
You are adding QBs who produced at a high level in the League.
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is cut and dried:
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I don't know whether
Now Mike in MD : 9:13 am : link : reply
Rosen will be a great QB, but to dismiss him based on his first year seems very short sighted. Lots of rookie QBs struggle their first year. And his stats were much better than Eli's his first year and he had much worse personnel around him than Eli did his first year. Was Eli's 55 QBR his first year a predictor of his future? No. Than why should Rosen's 66 QBR?
I keep seeing the logic that since Eli sucked his rookie year that other QB's sucking mean they will have a long and fruitful career.
The ones who wanted to pick Darnold keep using his poor year as some kind of bizarro evidence that he's going to be fine.
What last year showed about the rookie QB's is that we know little more about them going into this year than we did going into last year.
Comparing a 66QBR vs. a 55QBR means practically nothing if that 66QBR doesn't eventually lead to a long-term starting job that delivers success.
I'm not saying Rosen's rookie year is somehow confirmation that he will have the same career as Eli or even a successful career. I'm just saying to dismiss Rosen as a long term prospect simply because he had a poor rookie season makes no sense, especially considering who he had to work with. If we had applied the same logic to Eli, we don't win two SBs. Rosen coming out was considered the most polished QB in the draft. The real question marks were character and health. Considering that he seemed to be a good citizen despite getting pummeled by a woeful OL, he partially answered the character question to my mind. Health? Who knows. But he didn't have any concussions and he held up physically better than Darnold.
He had probably the least favorable situation in the entire NFL from a Qb standpoint. Horrible offensive line, not great WRs , potentially weak offensive system/coaching. Despite all that he still flashed skills and tremendous accuracy and ability to read a defense at times. Put him in the right situation he probably has a Goff like jump to his second season.
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
Agreed 100 percent. I don't think the Giants need a Top 10 QB with SB as the centerpiece. Get the OL together. Build a strong D. Have the QB as a complimentary piece
He plays nothing like Vick. Black, runs, definitely Vick.
Heck, I'd be fine with getting Rosen.
But we should only make those moves if the QB's a graded up high enough to warrant th pick or that they see something in Rosen worthy of trading for him.
What I'm saying is don't force the pick or the trade. Build a solid team. Then add the QB. If teams with two solid units or one dominant one can make the playoffs with Case Keenum, Blake Bortles, Lamar Jackson or Nick Foles, I'm pretty sure if we build the core to be strong, we can win with a mid-1st draft pick or a FA starter.
QB is one of the tougher positions to find and are at a heavy premium. If we have the opportunity to get our QB of the future with our #6 pick either via trade or drafting him outright now is the time to do it. We passed up some potentially pretty good ones lastt year and now Eli is a year older and on the last year of his contract.
We are an OL or two away from a very strong offense. We hopefully can use FA to shape the D with players that fit Bettcher's vision. Vernon likely to be let go if I had to guess. Never really lived up to the contract, getting older and somewhat injury prone. Vets also wont have the rookie learning curve. Lots of DEs potentially available in FA and some good LBs too.
But I do believe any of Foles, Rosen, Haskins or Lock are guys you can win a Super Bowl with (or eventually win with). Therefore worth the money and/or top pick.
We could have a high pick in 2020 if we suck, but it could also be in the teens or 20s, in which case, then we are talking about severely mortgaging the future for the 2020 QB.
We have the 6th pick now. We can either take a QB here, or trade up a few slots which would not take a 1st in all likelihood (unless we moved all the way up to #1). We know what our situation is now, and that there probably QBs that we could target with our selection here. It would be really dumb, in my opinion, to take a defensive end instead of a really good QB prospect.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
We've seen quite a few drafts where the guy picked there is better than the ones teams fall in love with at the top of the draft.
Obviously yes, that is the case. But you have to take risks and you have to get a stud QB if you have conviction on him. If he ends up sucking...well....that could happen. It could happen with any player. If every team thought this way, nobody would ever take a QB high. Everyone keeps making excuses for not taking a QB instead of just taking a QB! It's getting ridiculous. We are never going to find the absolutely perfect QB prospect.
If you trade up to get a guy and he fails, you've just sunk time into seeing the guy fail, lost the opportunity to improve in other areas, and have to go back to the drawing board.
Picking a QB really only pays in dividends if you pick the right one.
Is it really any different from missing on any first round pick?
This team is where it, partly because we whiffed on Flowers, and to a slightly lesser extent, Apple
We've seen quite a few drafts where the guy picked there is better than the ones teams fall in love with at the top of the draft.
That's true...but in today's NFL, the cost to trade up is really high, and teams don't like risking to wait around for that QB to fall to them. For example...let's say our pick next year is 16. You think Gettleman is going to sit and wait especially if we passed on the QBs this year?
Every year, half the playoff teams rotate in and out. And even the great QB's (except for Brady) miss the postseason sometimes. Rivers missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years. Brees missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 while the team had a historically bad D. Cam Newton misses the playoffs as much as he makes them. This past season, 7 out of the top 8 highest paid QB's missed the playoffs.
Eli's ending his run, but a strong team will help mitigate that transition regardless of who teh QB is. When Romo went down, Prescott was able to still take the team to the playoffs, not because he's a great QB, but because they have the best OL. Bortles rode a suffocating D to the AFC Championship game. Case Keenum took the Vikings there. Pretty much any QB in Andy Reid's system gets them there and then quickly exits.
What we have is an aging QB, but we also have a pretty bad team.
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it’s fine if you want to look at everything as a positive but anyone dumping a top pick, at QB no less should at least raise concern. But hey let’s ignore that and give them the 6th overall pick, make him nice and happy sitting on the bench in 2019, and then hope he’s good enough in the next 2 years after to pay him.
Rosen is fine. I’d take him but not at that price. If the Dolphins want to blow their load for him go right ahead. IMO his ceiling just isn’t big enough.
Rosen would start week 1. If Eli is still around you have an open competition. If you remove loyalty and sentimentality from the equation, which I realize is hard at “Jints Central”, Rosen likely beats Eli out.
Likely beats out Eli? Oh really?
Bingo, if the Giants give up #6 for Rosen they are the worst franchise in sports. But it’s not happening because Murray isn’t going #1
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
How often do you get to evaluate a years worth of game film on a player like this ?
The Giants will know with more certainty if they think that Rosen has the ability to become their QB of the future
If the answer is positive then the Giants should make a deal
The economics are excellent
The CAP impact is minimal it’s like getting a first round pick for third round dollars
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Rosen had no chance. That oline played most of the year like they were drunk or suffered vertigo. I think it was easily the worst in the NFL.
Until Kingsbury fixes that disaster, even Murray and his scrambling, speed and quickness will pay a price.
I find it interesting the leeway you extend to rosen because of the OL issues he was saddled with.
Interesting or ironic? The problem is bw has made it abundantly clear he does not like and has never liked Eli because of the way he handled the draft. It's difficult to believe that this does not color all of his opinions on this issue
Why should the Giants aspire to any of these low-ceiling team building examples?
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
The Pats, Steelers and Seahawks, perhaps?
which by the way, two of those teams are starting QB's not drafted in the 1st round.
Draft round only matters for the players' first contract. Those 3 teams pay their QBs top $$ (though in TBs case much of it is under the table). GB should be in that mix too since it took an AR injury to keep them out of the postseason last year.