NFT: Raising Kids "Gender Neutral"

With everything going on in the world these people worry about gender identity.

You think this forum can handle this topic.....

Yes its child abuse..but dont be surprised if you turn Into the asshole for saying that.

of this woman who said that parents should ask their babies permission before changing their diapers.
Link - ( New Window )

"In a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just wankers, and that's fine by me.'

were going away, and people would be happy. I really didn't see this coming.

The best was on a recruiting trip to a college a few months ago. There was a gender neutral bathroom, with a very weird symbol that was supposed to indicate it was neutral. I couldn't figure it out, so I asked someone and they said 'this means that all are welcome'.

Couldn't they have just stopped at the sign that said 'Bathroom'?

a handful of people can screw up the entire population of a country.
And why subject your kid to bullying and ridicule at school as bad as it is already. Kids are mean. Just gives the evil little devils another avenue to bully.

and points more to a parent seeking attention than actually raising their child. I’m not joking when I say that a lot of this is done for social media. Standing out and going against the norm is now a badge of honor, even if it means harming your child.

My kid can be whatever she wants to be and I’d support it (not blindly, within reason of course). Her sexuality, when the time comes, will be something I support no matter what and will let her figure that out on her own. Stepping in and determining it for her is something I can’t even fathom.

I agree that it’s child abuse.

their children who are gender confused or even feel they've been born into the wrong gender.

Having gone to a bunch of workshops on the topic, I've heard first hand how painful it is for those who have tried to be gender conforming while on another level feeling a fraud.

At one workshop, a West Point lieutenant colonel, a Florida police chief, and a decorated marine all talked about the depression they experienced trying to conform, and how their choices of gender normative roles were their failed attempts to "fit in". Each had gone forward to transitions to becoming female in their 30s-40s after years of struggle...and none of them seemed mentally ill (to this psychologist) as some folks might think.

is more about the parent. Almost like they are trying to make a statement that they are above the laws of nature.

And by that, I don't mean that their sexual preference matters, just that they most definitely are a boy or a girl and there are physical impacts of each of those sexes.

In addition, I wouldn't trust the parents to have the level of intelligence to adequately answer questions that arise.

- Why am I bleeding out of my crotch?
- Why do I have hair on my chin, but other kids don't?
- What are these lumps on my chest?

How do you answer those questions without letting the cat out of the bag? And that's assuming social settings didn't already traumatize the kids.

In comment 14296006 yatqb said:

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their children who are gender confused or even feel they've been born into the wrong gender. Having gone to a bunch of workshops on the topic, I've heard first hand how painful it is for those who have tried to be gender conforming while on another level feeling a fraud. At one workshop, a West Point lieutenant colonel, a Florida police chief, and a decorated marine all talked about the depression they experienced trying to conform, and how their choices of gender normative roles were their failed attempts to "fit in". Each had gone forward to transitions to becoming female in their 30s-40s after years of struggle...and none of them seemed mentally ill (to this psychologist) as some folks might think.

yat, you're the expert so I'll defer to you, but when does gender confusion set in for these kids? To me it seems like attempting to do this from the jump would preempt any of those feelings.

The gender stereotypes were what needed to be abolished, IMO. It seems like they're trying to introduce the concept of sexuality at an age where kids are just too young to understand it.

By crazy people who want to "boy".

Same crazies are going after boy scouts...

5-10 years ago they would have been institutionalized and their kids protected from their crazy

"Dont want a boy"

sex = male/female
gender = man/woman
sexuality = straight/gay/bi

And these are all different from masculine and feminine behavior.

as opposed to sexuality.

In comment 14296006 yatqb said:

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their children who are gender confused or even feel they've been born into the wrong gender. Having gone to a bunch of workshops on the topic, I've heard first hand how painful it is for those who have tried to be gender conforming while on another level feeling a fraud. At one workshop, a West Point lieutenant colonel, a Florida police chief, and a decorated marine all talked about the depression they experienced trying to conform, and how their choices of gender normative roles were their failed attempts to "fit in". Each had gone forward to transitions to becoming female in their 30s-40s after years of struggle...and none of them seemed mentally ill (to this psychologist) as some folks might think.

Interesting perspective yat, great post

Some people even think sex is socially constructed (fewer people, more radical people)

Girls = Vagina

Dress how you want but I'm not lying because you are confused...

In comment 14296028 kes722 said:

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Girls = Vagina Dress how you want but I'm not lying because you are confused...

And you're the token ignoramus who can't do nuance or actually discuss an issue...

In comment 14296006 yatqb said:

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their children who are gender confused or even feel they've been born into the wrong gender. Having gone to a bunch of workshops on the topic, I've heard first hand how painful it is for those who have tried to be gender conforming while on another level feeling a fraud. At one workshop, a West Point lieutenant colonel, a Florida police chief, and a decorated marine all talked about the depression they experienced trying to conform, and how their choices of gender normative roles were their failed attempts to "fit in". Each had gone forward to transitions to becoming female in their 30s-40s after years of struggle...and none of them seemed mentally ill (to this psychologist) as some folks might think.

That's a great perspective. It would be interesting to see if raising a child gender neutral makes them more apt to be gender confused. If so, and knowing what gender confused people go through, that is terrible.

I'm just not sure the parents doing this have the proper training or intelligence to be able to avoid gender confusion, and this method of parenting, at least to me, would seem to be more likely for gender confusion to happen later in life. And then I wonder what happens when part of that confusion leads to backlash against the way they were raised and if families become fractured.

then people think.

When this happens the doctors end up making their best guess and construct the rest of the genitalia and form one or the other.

It's pretty easy to see why people can sometimes get confused or be confused.
Mayo Clinic - ( New Window )

It's a case of a parent purposefully confusing their child's gender.

Even debate.

This isn’t one.

Some people are fucked in the head. And as my grandfather used to like to say, “We’re going to hell in a handbasket.”

Which I always wondered about the size of a hand basket and everyone? Going to hell in it? That kind of fucked me up as a kid. Good thing my parents told me I was male. Shit, Even that was hard enough to figure out. Try that with persistent acne at 14-15. Damn.

Anyhow. Back to the thread.

In comment 14296005 UConn4523 said:

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and points more to a parent seeking attention than actually raising their child. I’m not joking when I say that a lot of this is done for social media. Standing out and going against the norm is now a badge of honor, even if it means harming your child. My kid can be whatever she wants to be and I’d support it (not blindly, within reason of course). Her sexuality, when the time comes, will be something I support no matter what and will let her figure that out on her own. Stepping in and determining it for her is something I can’t even fathom. I agree that it’s child abuse.

I 100% agree that social media plays a huge part in this.

In comment 14296006 yatqb said:

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their children who are gender confused or even feel they've been born into the wrong gender. Having gone to a bunch of workshops on the topic, I've heard first hand how painful it is for those who have tried to be gender conforming while on another level feeling a fraud. At one workshop, a West Point lieutenant colonel, a Florida police chief, and a decorated marine all talked about the depression they experienced trying to conform, and how their choices of gender normative roles were their failed attempts to "fit in". Each had gone forward to transitions to becoming female in their 30s-40s after years of struggle...and none of them seemed mentally ill (to this psychologist) as some folks might think.

There is a huge difference to being open and caring if your childhas gender identity issues vs. raising them to be gender neutral for no good reason.

not less.

I agree. I also wonder what it will do for the social skills and interaction these kids will have

They are determined by their chromosomes.

Anything contrary is liberal anti-science bullshit.

Same with anti-vaxxers.

Fuck these people.

(putting aside ambiguous genitalia - that's a whole other ball of wax.)
However, I can provide a few "old timer" observations:
- We could reduce the "alphabet of sexes" if we did not confound biological gender with sexual preference. I can be a biological man and be attracted to another man; that does NOT define a new gender; I am still a man. (If I swing both ways, that is not a separate gender either.)
- Psychologists tell us true instances of gender confusion make up a very small portion of our population. (I agree with others that being "transgender" has become a fad in many social groups. It is no longer "cool" to be Goth in our local HS.) Intervening (including being "gender neutral" to your little girl) before it is identified as a problem can only create more confusion in a very young child.
- Doing ANYTHING permanent to the child before they reach sexual maturity is irresponsible. (OK, that was an opinion.)
Parents, please pick another cause if you want to virtue signal.

and this is one of them. The "empowerment" of every loud voice crying out in agony is simply more than most of us want to be subjected to.

I raise in accordance with science and common sense. I really think the majority of parents do the same. They don't insist on making their parenting choices as publicly available as possible.

In comment 14296076 Bockman said:

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They are determined by their chromosomes. Anything contrary is liberal anti-science bullshit. Same with anti-vaxxers. Fuck these people.

XX and XY isn't an exhaustive list of the possible genetic "genders" as you say. There are other possibilities, though rare.

original discussion (about which I disagree) and trans folks, who (unlike what Beezer believes) do not display mentally illness at a rate above the rest of the population.

jcn, gender identification (as opposed to confusion) can emerge very early in life, and I believe is related to biological factors. As Down the Shore has mentioned, lots of kids are born with ambiguous genitalia, and pediatricians have only lately been encouraged to NOT choose for the child (transforming the child's genitals to conform with one gender) but to let gender identity emerge in the child and only then perform surgery.

But there are hypothesized to be many other factors besides ambiguous genitalia that play a role in gender identity. John Money, for example, pointed to delayed androgen bath in kids with XY chromosomes (which leads in animals to perform a variety of functions, such as urinating, in gender-nonconformative ways -- e.g., squatting as opposed to raising one leg). Lots is still unknown, but I absolutely believe that socialization cannot override these biological determinants without a great deal of struggle on the part of the individual.

it is because their parents are making them confused. Their son plays with a doll at 2 yrs old and they think he may really be a girl. Then, start asking him if he feels like a girl. It is basically child abuse.

on a related topic...
this calling people by the pronouns they prefer is also getting on my last nerve.

.

My gosh some are damaging our children by this dribble

pure crap.

In comment 14296125 yatqb said:

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.

If it doesn't happen to some people, they just can't grasp it. I wish empathy was more common.

gender neutral, I would have received a scholarship to play for Pat Summitt at UT.

I know she really liked stand still shooters. And despite being a 6'2" slow white guy, I could shoot.

Unfortunately, I struggled with bigger, stronger, faster people of my gender...

You would have to figure it's not real.

I would assume that well over 95% of parents who choose this are just attention whores begging to be talked about.

One day a lot of these people are going to be older and look at a lot of their attention seeking actions and say to themselves "what have I done".

Inevitable regret.

In comment 14296003 section125 said:

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a handful of people can screw up the entire population of a country. And why subject your kid to bullying and ridicule at school as bad as it is already. Kids are mean. Just gives the evil little devils another avenue to bully.

is this really happening though? 99.9999% of the population is just fine and raising their kids in a normal fashion. I feel bad for the kids with wacko parents doing this, but is it any different than kids with alcoholic, drug addicted or abusive parents?

In comment 14296097 yatqb said:

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original discussion (about which I disagree) and trans folks, who (unlike what Beezer believes) do not display mentally illness at a rate above the rest of the population. jcn, gender identification (as opposed to confusion) can emerge very early in life, and I believe is related to biological factors. As Down the Shore has mentioned, lots of kids are born with ambiguous genitalia, and pediatricians have only lately been encouraged to NOT choose for the child (transforming the child's genitals to conform with one gender) but to let gender identity emerge in the child and only then perform surgery. But there are hypothesized to be many other factors besides ambiguous genitalia that play a role in gender identity. John Money, for example, pointed to delayed androgen bath in kids with XY chromosomes (which leads in animals to perform a variety of functions, such as urinating, in gender-nonconformative ways -- e.g., squatting as opposed to raising one leg). Lots is still unknown, but I absolutely believe that socialization cannot override these biological determinants without a great deal of struggle on the part of the individual.

You can't fight biology. If a boy is a homosexual boy, let him be that. He was born a boy, regardless of his sexuality.

Let these poor children be what they become, and on their own.

In comment 14296112 EricJ said:

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it is because their parents are making them confused. Their son plays with a doll at 2 yrs old and they think he may really be a girl. Then, start asking him if he feels like a girl. It is basically child abuse. on a related topic... this calling people by the pronouns they prefer is also getting on my last nerve.

I disagree with this. Gender confusion is a real thing. I know a family that has two sons and one has this. The other is normal. They definitely didn't push it on him and take measures to hide it from the other kids. But completely invalidating and suppressing how the kid feels is just another type of abuse.

From 11/18 (long, but worth a read)

Gender Dysphoria in Children

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Might gender identity be genetically determined? Behavior geneticists have known for decades that while genes influence behavior, they do not hard-wire a person to think, feel, or behave in a particular way. The science of epigenetics has established that genes are not analogous to rigid “blueprints” for behavior. Rather, humans “develop traits through the dynamic process of gene-environment interaction… [genes alone] don’t determine who we are.”18 Regarding the etiology of transgenderism, twin studies of adult transsexuals prove definitively that genetic influence is far less than that of environmental factors.

Tim Pool (Journalist, Occupy Wallstreet) had an interesting video about "rapid onset gender dysphoria." In effect, is peer pressure in college affecting the decision to go Trans?

Study: Kids are TransGender Because its Trendy, Is it True?

This is NOT to say Trans does not exist, but it is a matter of concern if your daughter...who never expressed interest in a sex change operation...comes back from college as a guy. Or visa versa.

And it's not like there isn't peer pressure in college, or wanting to "fit in". Like it or not, that does exist, and many Colleges do facilitate this without having to consult parents Fox News: Oregon allowing 15-year-olds to get state-subsidized sex-change operations

I guess there are some situations where going Trans has huge advantages, though. As in the following meme:

But it’s not necessarily child abuse, a lot of these parents are loving and caring; though misguided in ensuring their kids do not need to conform to traditional gender stereotypes (misguided because it ignores biological realities). it’s not like they are hitting , neglecting, molesting or verbally berating them. Just like parents who raise their kids in strictly religious households teaching them that it is a sin to watch movies, masturbate, date outside the faith etc is not abuse but misguided.

I have a 5 year old girl and she is all about princesses dressing up baking etc and a 3 year old boy who loves Spider-Man construction toys and rough play. We didn’t force them into those preferences they just naturally gravitated.

Pre-Internet people would pay a few sheckels and see a freak show with curiosities, some real, some phony In a show that would travel from town to town.

Now the freak show is free and at your keyboard. It’s just an entertainment same as always- nothing to take seriously

In comment 14296187 Les in TO said:

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But it’s not necessarily child abuse, a lot of these parents are loving and caring; though misguided in ensuring their kids do not need to conform to traditional gender stereotypes (misguided because it ignores biological realities). it’s not like they are hitting , neglecting, molesting or verbally berating them. Just like parents who raise their kids in strictly religious households teaching them that it is a sin to watch movies, masturbate, date outside the faith etc is not abuse but misguided. I have a 5 year old girl and she is all about princesses dressing up baking etc and a 3 year old boy who loves Spider-Man construction toys and rough play. We didn’t force them into those preferences they just naturally gravitated.

you can be absolutely be loving and caring and still abusive and damaging beyond repair.

Genitalia determines sex, not gender.

In comment 14296173 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14296112 EricJ said: Quote: it is because their parents are making them confused. Their son plays with a doll at 2 yrs old and they think he may really be a girl. Then, start asking him if he feels like a girl. It is basically child abuse. on a related topic... this calling people by the pronouns they prefer is also getting on my last nerve. I disagree with this. Gender confusion is a real thing. I know a family that has two sons and one has this. The other is normal. They definitely didn't push it on him and take measures to hide it from the other kids. But completely invalidating and suppressing how the kid feels is just another type of abuse.

I did not say that it does not exist. I am saying that parents today are confusing kids and making them question themselves even when they never thought about it before.

You also don't invalidate it but instead you take him or her to a therapist because it is a mental issue that needs to be dealt with.

Absolutely- but i don’t see what these parents are doing as abuse, just strange. Anti vaxxers/anti traditional medicine parents are far more abusive because they prevent their kids from getting necessary health care.

pro-gender neutral sites had this comment:

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For instance, girls are often valued for their looks, while boys are praised for their intelligence. Girls are told to sit still, while boys are encouraged to participate in the world around them. These gender roles impact children for the rest of their lives and can even have lasting consequences to their health and wellbeing. In order to prevent unfair treatment and potentially even discrimination because of gender, some parents are choosing to raise their children as gender-neutral.

If the supposition that traditional gender roles have lasting consequences to health and wellbeing and avoidance of that is a driver to go gender neutral, I would think those being raised gender neutral will most definitely face unfair treatment and discrimination at a higher rate than if they were raised traditionally.

In comment 14296207 Mr. Bungle said:

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Genitalia determines sex, not gender.

only when changing definitions for political reasons.