That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
The problem in the Bay Area is the housing supply hasn't kept pace with the population growth. Same thing in most northern metros certainly NYC, DC, Boston, LA etc. All the talk about companies moving for lower taxes it's probably as much or more about lower cost of living which translates to lower wages they have to pay their employees. These areas need to build more housing but local opposition makes it real hard. Residents in my Northern NJ town blocked a townhouse complex on vacant lot for about 15 years - it's just going up now. Same story all over the place.
In places where jobs are scarce and at a premium, we look like a bunch of ungrateful assholes for turning this down. New York’s public officials should have negotiated wages that worked for blue collar workers in NYC and effects on the neighborhood more effectively so pricing out situations for locals were kept to a bare minimum. But you can’t just turn down that many jobs just by stamping feet and saying Amazon is the devil incarnate and they can’t set foot here
"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
Stick it to the man baby!!
Predictably, giants24 shows up to urinate in the punch bowl.
NYC just turned there backs on 25,000 high paying jobs Â
If people are worried about income inequality, the answer is not to stop creating high paying jobs and only have low paying jobs. These 25000 people would have lived in the Tri-state area and traveled every day into Amazon. In addition to the 25,000 people, business would have flowed into all the restaurants, bars, etc. in the area. Local businesses would have flourished because of supplying goods and services to Amazon and new jobs would have been created at all these "non-Amazon" companies. Plus the tax base would increase.
Killing this is a very short-sighted, political decision. When people see they are left with crappy low paying jobs (or no jobs) I bet the elections will get very interesting.
Also estimates say that another 67,000 jobs would have been created Â
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
Quote:
NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
Those jobs weren't going to anyone in the area.
RE: This was 25,000 high paying jobs in excess of 100k, Â
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
$150K isn't cutting it in all the new residential buildings in the area. They are all 7 figures.
RE: NYC permits remarkably little new construction... Â
which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
There's not a housing crunch; there is an affordable housing crunch. There is a ton of new development, especially in Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is, most of it is not even close to affordable for the average New Yorker.
1) I work in the building they were supposed to have moved in to. That part never made sense to me because the building is a dump and they seemed intent on not tearing it down for some reason.
2) This is more about politics than anything else. The governor and Mayor illegally cut a back-room deal with Bezos and city council members were pissed that they were bypassed...rightfully so. There are stipulations for the city council to approve all deals involving city owned land/property.
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
4) I am skeptical about the numbers anyway. The $27B over 25 years is being thrown around a lot. It sounds like when they try to sell the public on the benefits of a new stadium or winning a SB or Olympic bid. The reality is there are so many hidden or ignored costs that this is never the actual revenues realized from the deal. I suspect the same is the case here.
5) A big question is does this shatter the credibility of DiBlasio and Cuomo on the national stage?
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
That article is a nice fluff piece, but does nothing to dispel the notion that when it comes toeconomics, she simply doesn't know what she is talking about. She says a lot of nice things with no substance or plans behind them. This $3B was not a tax expenditure. IT was based on a combination of the realized revenues and the corporate behavior.
Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
In places where jobs are scarce and at a premium, we look like a bunch of ungrateful assholes for turning this down. New York’s public officials should have negotiated wages that worked for blue collar workers in NYC and effects on the neighborhood more effectively so pricing out situations for locals were kept to a bare minimum. But you can’t just turn down that many jobs just by stamping feet and saying Amazon is the devil incarnate and they can’t set foot here
Thing is, as a software engineer who is both a hiring manager, and gets hit up by recruiter at least five times a week, we don't need more tech jobs in this city. It's hard enough to fill the jobs that currently exist here. Is that reason to kill this move, probably not, but I honestly believe that they could still add many of those jobs by just expanding their existing presence in the city. Google owns an entire office building in Chelsea, Amazon could have done the same and left LIC out of it.
RE: Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
If your take on this matter is to slam a particular politician, then you should share it elsewhere.
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
RE: RE: RE: Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
Instead of killing this thread can we please just ban this guy? We were having a pretty sensible discussion that was mostly avoiding politics before he came along. This site is way better when we can have economic discussions that avoid obvious politics. Although there's a political component to all economic discussions, he clearly tried to inject the political element into it. And I can't think of any reason to do it--knowing the rules--other than to stir up shit.
Never let it be said that we don't believe in customer service here at BBI
I could see Amazon going to Detroit or Cleveland Â
Around a lot of politicians and it permiates to general public that “xyz tax breaks would be better spent on schools” and it’s damaging because the tax break is based on the future revenue of that company at that location. Unless there is a bidding war for the location among similar companies and the government gives it to a company that it has also given a tax break too there is nothing coming out of pocket from taxpayer. The amount of folks in Newark uttering that sentiment when they were in the running for Amazon was scary and it ends up crippling an electorate. Nj.com will have a headline 3 billion to amazon and that is all people seem to grasp.
Also this is more of a comment on the poster because I am legitimately confused, why is winning a science fair relevant to an economic analysis. It’s a really odd thing to post.
Amazon could turn around a community, Syracuse, Rochester, Binghamton.
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
If Amazon could, they would in a second. It would cost them nothing to deploy, and the press they'd get for it would probably outweigh the business benefits.
But finding enough skilled talent in a location like that would be next to impossible, and trying to import them would be even harder.
This is very simple, more political nonsense back and forth like usual. Amazon announces the deal along with the incentives, and politicians play up the sweetheart nature of the deal and make it seem like Cuomo gave NYC away. Politicians on both sides, just playing their own respective angles.
The deal hits some pushback, and now Amazon is pulling out. In record time, without even that much pushback. At a point in our economy where it seems like a decline is inevitable in the near term, so it's just as likely Amazon has decided against such a large expansion (they announced they're not building a new location but they're going to expand their existing hubs, and by fewer staff).
So now more political wrangling by both sides ("we lost those jobs" vs "we big a big corporation"). And our citizens are just as bad, feeding into this stupid cheerleading by bringing up pointless, unrelated items like union labor for what would have been an all white collar location.
This country can't get past it's love for mindless partisan politics, and we're doomed as a result.
But I think if amazon wasn’t so arrogant by making a big spectacle of their search of a “Q2” they could have enjoyed nice tax breaks while quietly moving into queens. I’m not totally against the Concessions they were set to revive but I find it a bit distasteful that they leveraged cities against each other in the media
Recruitment was going to be a bear. There's a drought of qualified workers. Amazon themselves is having a hard time recruiting for their other local shops right now.
LIC has been positioning and developing to be an outlet for office and condo space to Manhattan for 2 decades. The only reason anyone outside of New York knows what LIC is because it's been built to literally be what's it's become -- a mini-Midtown. It's not like Amazon, or Citi, or soon to be Bloomingdale's is crashing into Brooklyn Heights and kicking out families. This is literally city planning by design.
Policy-wise I'm of the mind NYC shouldn't be giving tax incentives to any businesses. The city should reap all of the gains always.
What the city can do in those instances is improve infrastructure to account for growth. I would have loved a plan centered around using projected tax revenue for expanded bike lanes, an overground walk way, and expanded subway entrances.
There are ways for public policy to be part of the solution of expansion without foregoing future revenue.
This is what I gleaned from reading some other sources. Basically, the mayor and governor negotiated a deal without the community. In the end, the community complained....one of the fears is people would be forced out/priced out of their neighborhoods due to the influx of workers needed.
NY certainly lost a big pay day I guess, but in the end, the little guy one.
Amazon could have come into LIC and gotten the exact same tax break deal but included in the deal something forces city to fix signaling problem in the subway
It would have given politicians covers to actually fix a huge problem in the city and
Amazon would have been considered heroes .
but instead Amazon came in to LIC arrogantly wanting a helipad and promising to bust unions .
was the fruit of some people sounding like idiots on Twitter and in the press and trying to double down. It's simple arithmetic. If I forego a percentage of revenue I would gain from a revenue stream but otherwise glean the rest of that stream, I have more than I started with. If I forego the whole of that revenue stream, I do not. Yes the promised revenue sometimes (often times) falls short of expectations. Yes another, similarly sized employer without a subsidy would (presumably) produce a comparable or greater amount of revenue, but there is no similarly sized employer. Google's growth was independent of Amazon's.
[quote}Suggesting they would oppose unionization..and promising to bust unions are not synonymous. This isn't 1890, they're not hiring a legion of Pinkertons..[/quote]
sorry for my incorrect phrasing
Amazon has fulfillment center in Staten Island with 2,500 employees- Amazon is determined they don't unionize
I really think the unionization issue was the straw that broke the camels back
but even if Amazon wins that fight, the NYC progressives would benefit from having a non-unionized Amazon near at hand to bash. They're a convenient villain, even though it'll be a cold day in hell before most of these folks forego what Amazon has to offer.
It sounds to me like this is the first time downstaters have heard one of these sales pitches. Oodles of high paying jobs. the multiplier factor (pitch in a dollar and ten come back your way).
Usually, if you dig down a little, you find wildly optimistic estimates, hidden costs, magical math, etc.
Perhaps this was a golden opportunity missed. My experience with gov't giveaways leads me to a kneejerk reaction of Phew! the taxpayers dodged a bullet.
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
The world is becoming more and more virtual.
maybe they need a critical mass in one place, but for an HQ2 my assumption was most jobs could be done virtually.
I worked for a major (fortune 50) company before my current job and any time I'd go to any of our major hub offices, even HQ, it was like tumbleweeds rolling though the building. the only people there were those who had to come in for meetings and millennials.
I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
But I think if amazon wasn’t so arrogant by making a big spectacle of their search of a “Q2” they could have enjoyed nice tax breaks while quietly moving into queens. I’m not totally against the Concessions they were set to revive but I find it a bit distasteful that they leveraged cities against each other in the media
Close your eye3s when they talk about Olympic host cities.
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
The location is important for their clients, retailer relationships (especially sales and affiliates), the travel for international clients etc.
My last and current company are major Amazon partners both on the retail and AWS (major revenue for both accounts) -- getting to Seattle is a pain and not productive because no one else is there.
They'll have a big tech shop on the East coast, but having a presence is just as important.
The Chelsea Google shop is chalk full of sales and relationship people. My last job was a top 10 SEM customer topline for Google, being able to get over in-person and quickly settle issues literally saved me 100s of thousands dollars productivity.
I'm literally making Amazon decisions right now based on a future relationship on the East coast.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
It's not quite that simple.
First of all, there's no guarantee that they would have added anywhere near that number of jobs. Anyone who has paid attention to these sorts of deals should know that the companies almost over-promise and under-deliver.
Second, NYC is not Detroit. While it's certainly nice to have more job, it's really a drop in the bucket compared to the economic activity of NYC and the NY greater metro.
Third, for a lot of the really high-end jobs, Amazon would be poaching a lot of them from existing NYC/NY firms. How would you feel if you were a small dev shop and NY State was subsidizing the company that was hiring away your best talent?
Fourth, none of this would come without disruption or cost. Plunking an HQ2 in LIC would cause a lot of issues with respect to transit, housing, schools and other infrastructure concerns. These are things that government would to have to spend a lot of money to mitigate. This is on top of the money they would already be giving Amazon to move there.
At the end of the day, whether you think HQ2 was a good idea or not for LIC, it's clear that everyone involved in planning this botched the deal. The push back from the community and local pols should have been expected.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
RE: RE: RE: How are the local politicians ever .... Â
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. NYC is still one of the most economically powerful cities in the world, second only to Tokyo in GDP.
9/11 did result in the destruction of 13 million square feet of office space at the World Trade Center complex, but 38 million square feet of space have been added since then, with more than half that added in the past five years.
Every major tech company has offices in NYC. If people are leaving NYC, it's because they can't make it there. Far more companies are moving in than moving out.
Since 2009, the City has added more than 620,000 jobs, raising the total to 4.3 million. Office-based employment increased by 202,000 jobs, reaching a record 1.5 million in 2016.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
Quote:
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
The problem in the Bay Area is the housing supply hasn't kept pace with the population growth. Same thing in most northern metros certainly NYC, DC, Boston, LA etc. All the talk about companies moving for lower taxes it's probably as much or more about lower cost of living which translates to lower wages they have to pay their employees. These areas need to build more housing but local opposition makes it real hard. Residents in my Northern NJ town blocked a townhouse complex on vacant lot for about 15 years - it's just going up now. Same story all over the place.
Stick it to the man baby!!
Predictably, giants24 shows up to urinate in the punch bowl.
Killing this is a very short-sighted, political decision. When people see they are left with crappy low paying jobs (or no jobs) I bet the elections will get very interesting.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
Quote:
NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
2) This is more about politics than anything else. The governor and Mayor illegally cut a back-room deal with Bezos and city council members were pissed that they were bypassed...rightfully so. There are stipulations for the city council to approve all deals involving city owned land/property.
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
4) I am skeptical about the numbers anyway. The $27B over 25 years is being thrown around a lot. It sounds like when they try to sell the public on the benefits of a new stadium or winning a SB or Olympic bid. The reality is there are so many hidden or ignored costs that this is never the actual revenues realized from the deal. I suspect the same is the case here.
5) A big question is does this shatter the credibility of DiBlasio and Cuomo on the national stage?
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
Quote:
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
Thing is, as a software engineer who is both a hiring manager, and gets hit up by recruiter at least five times a week, we don't need more tech jobs in this city. It's hard enough to fill the jobs that currently exist here. Is that reason to kill this move, probably not, but I honestly believe that they could still add many of those jobs by just expanding their existing presence in the city. Google owns an entire office building in Chelsea, Amazon could have done the same and left LIC out of it.
Spoke way too soon. Stick to the economic/financial arguments.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
Quote:
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
Instead of killing this thread can we please just ban this guy? We were having a pretty sensible discussion that was mostly avoiding politics before he came along. This site is way better when we can have economic discussions that avoid obvious politics. Although there's a political component to all economic discussions, he clearly tried to inject the political element into it. And I can't think of any reason to do it--knowing the rules--other than to stir up shit.
Never let it be said that we don't believe in customer service here at BBI
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
Also this is more of a comment on the poster because I am legitimately confused, why is winning a science fair relevant to an economic analysis. It’s a really odd thing to post.
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
If Amazon could, they would in a second. It would cost them nothing to deploy, and the press they'd get for it would probably outweigh the business benefits.
But finding enough skilled talent in a location like that would be next to impossible, and trying to import them would be even harder.
This is very simple, more political nonsense back and forth like usual. Amazon announces the deal along with the incentives, and politicians play up the sweetheart nature of the deal and make it seem like Cuomo gave NYC away. Politicians on both sides, just playing their own respective angles.
The deal hits some pushback, and now Amazon is pulling out. In record time, without even that much pushback. At a point in our economy where it seems like a decline is inevitable in the near term, so it's just as likely Amazon has decided against such a large expansion (they announced they're not building a new location but they're going to expand their existing hubs, and by fewer staff).
So now more political wrangling by both sides ("we lost those jobs" vs "we big a big corporation"). And our citizens are just as bad, feeding into this stupid cheerleading by bringing up pointless, unrelated items like union labor for what would have been an all white collar location.
This country can't get past it's love for mindless partisan politics, and we're doomed as a result.
LIC has been positioning and developing to be an outlet for office and condo space to Manhattan for 2 decades. The only reason anyone outside of New York knows what LIC is because it's been built to literally be what's it's become -- a mini-Midtown. It's not like Amazon, or Citi, or soon to be Bloomingdale's is crashing into Brooklyn Heights and kicking out families. This is literally city planning by design.
Policy-wise I'm of the mind NYC shouldn't be giving tax incentives to any businesses. The city should reap all of the gains always.
What the city can do in those instances is improve infrastructure to account for growth. I would have loved a plan centered around using projected tax revenue for expanded bike lanes, an overground walk way, and expanded subway entrances.
There are ways for public policy to be part of the solution of expansion without foregoing future revenue.
There is a well kept secret about UNY, all jokes aside.
The quality of life is terrific if you like open spaces and outdoor activities and convenience.
This is what I gleaned from reading some other sources. Basically, the mayor and governor negotiated a deal without the community. In the end, the community complained....one of the fears is people would be forced out/priced out of their neighborhoods due to the influx of workers needed.
NY certainly lost a big pay day I guess, but in the end, the little guy one.
In some ways, that is good.
It would have given politicians covers to actually fix a huge problem in the city and
Amazon would have been considered heroes .
but instead Amazon came in to LIC arrogantly wanting a helipad and promising to bust unions .
She makes one hell of a bloody mary though
sorry for my incorrect phrasing
Amazon has fulfillment center in Staten Island with 2,500 employees- Amazon is determined they don't unionize
I really think the unionization issue was the straw that broke the camels back
It sounds to me like this is the first time downstaters have heard one of these sales pitches. Oodles of high paying jobs. the multiplier factor (pitch in a dollar and ten come back your way).
Usually, if you dig down a little, you find wildly optimistic estimates, hidden costs, magical math, etc.
Perhaps this was a golden opportunity missed. My experience with gov't giveaways leads me to a kneejerk reaction of Phew! the taxpayers dodged a bullet.
The world is becoming more and more virtual.
maybe they need a critical mass in one place, but for an HQ2 my assumption was most jobs could be done virtually.
I worked for a major (fortune 50) company before my current job and any time I'd go to any of our major hub offices, even HQ, it was like tumbleweeds rolling though the building. the only people there were those who had to come in for meetings and millennials.
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
Quote:
I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
Quote:
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
Are you sure?
Why Big Companies like Amazon and Apple Embrace Telecommuting - ( New Window )
Close your eye3s when they talk about Olympic host cities.
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
Ok
My last and current company are major Amazon partners both on the retail and AWS (major revenue for both accounts) -- getting to Seattle is a pain and not productive because no one else is there.
They'll have a big tech shop on the East coast, but having a presence is just as important.
The Chelsea Google shop is chalk full of sales and relationship people. My last job was a top 10 SEM customer topline for Google, being able to get over in-person and quickly settle issues literally saved me 100s of thousands dollars productivity.
I'm literally making Amazon decisions right now based on a future relationship on the East coast.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
It's not quite that simple.
First of all, there's no guarantee that they would have added anywhere near that number of jobs. Anyone who has paid attention to these sorts of deals should know that the companies almost over-promise and under-deliver.
Second, NYC is not Detroit. While it's certainly nice to have more job, it's really a drop in the bucket compared to the economic activity of NYC and the NY greater metro.
Third, for a lot of the really high-end jobs, Amazon would be poaching a lot of them from existing NYC/NY firms. How would you feel if you were a small dev shop and NY State was subsidizing the company that was hiring away your best talent?
Fourth, none of this would come without disruption or cost. Plunking an HQ2 in LIC would cause a lot of issues with respect to transit, housing, schools and other infrastructure concerns. These are things that government would to have to spend a lot of money to mitigate. This is on top of the money they would already be giving Amazon to move there.
At the end of the day, whether you think HQ2 was a good idea or not for LIC, it's clear that everyone involved in planning this botched the deal. The push back from the community and local pols should have been expected.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. NYC is still one of the most economically powerful cities in the world, second only to Tokyo in GDP.
9/11 did result in the destruction of 13 million square feet of office space at the World Trade Center complex, but 38 million square feet of space have been added since then, with more than half that added in the past five years.
Every major tech company has offices in NYC. If people are leaving NYC, it's because they can't make it there. Far more companies are moving in than moving out.
Since 2009, the City has added more than 620,000 jobs, raising the total to 4.3 million. Office-based employment increased by 202,000 jobs, reaching a record 1.5 million in 2016.