I work right across the street from the proposed Montgomery County MD location and a big helicopter has been circling the space. Made me think I wonder if it was the Amazon people and the NYC deal fell through.
I work right across the street from the proposed Montgomery County MD location and a big helicopter has been circling the space. Made me think I wonder if it was the Amazon people and the NYC deal fell through.
“Amazon said it does not have plans to reopen the search for a replacement location. The company will continue to build its planned headquarters in Virginia and its other planned location in Nashville.”
I work right across the street from the proposed Montgomery County MD location and a big helicopter has been circling the space. Made me think I wonder if it was the Amazon people and the NYC deal fell through.
To get a better deal in Washington. That’s what Amazon does. Not surprising.
Cuomo seems to be blaming pols and not Amazon.
Sometimes a thing is exactly what it purports to be.
You talking Washington DC (the other new location) or Washington state? What did they offer since LIC was chosen that would entice Amazon to change course?
Not sure how or why anyone would have thought... Â
that a move to the NY area was ever real. If you were Virginia for example and you got "played", then you are as foolish as the people in NY who thought Amazon was coming.
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
To get a better deal in Washington. That’s what Amazon does. Not surprising.
Cuomo seems to be blaming pols and not Amazon.
Sometimes a thing is exactly what it purports to be.
You talking Washington DC (the other new location) or Washington state? What did they offer since LIC was chosen that would entice Amazon to change course?
.
They got NYC to agree to a huge tax break, took that offer had DC match or beat it because that’s where they ultimately wanted it to be, probably to get government contracts. Now they are pulling out and making it out to be NYCs problem.
They do this shit all the time with products. Get someone to start selling on Amazon and then undercut them after they figure out what’s selling.
They need to be regulated. They need to be in DC to buddy up the senators so they don’t change anti-trust laws.
They got NYC to agree to a huge tax break, took that offer had DC match or beat it because that’s where they ultimately wanted it to be, probably to get government contracts. Now they are pulling out and making it out to be NYCs problem.
They do this shit all the time with products. Get someone to start selling on Amazon and then undercut them after they figure out what’s selling.
They need to be regulated. They need to be in DC to buddy up the senators so they don’t change anti-trust laws.
They didn't need NYC in the running to get Virginia/DC to offer massive tax breaks. Those areas offered the breaks on their own volition.
And several sites offered significantly more than NYC or DC (e.g. Newark) and were still turned down.
that a move to the NY area was ever real. If you were Virginia for example and you got "played", then you are as foolish as the people in NY who thought Amazon was coming.
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
I agree. I was shocked that NY was on the list to begin with. No real surprise Amazon isn't going there.
RE: Not sure how or why anyone would have thought... Â
that a move to the NY area was ever real. If you were Virginia for example and you got "played", then you are as foolish as the people in NY who thought Amazon was coming.
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
Plenty of large companies are expanding into the NYC area, most notably Google.
For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive, collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City," the statement reads.
but it's a strange dichotomy to chase away an employer who would have brought a great deal of indirect revenue into your city and state and then complain about the flight of wealthy New Yorkers to friendlier tax locales.
1. Amazon in NYC is real - Citibank was already emptying out the top floors of Citi building in LIC to accommodate Amazon who were in process of moving in .. not sure what will happen now in this building.
2 I actually think it was the pro union push that ultimately spooked Amazon out of NYC.
3. the idea to decentralize corporate growth in other boroughs outside of Manhattan is a decent idea but giving 3 Billion dollar tax break to world's largest corporation was insane - whoever thought this would fly in NYC is crazy.
4. As someone mentioned Google is about to do big expansion in west side of downtown and Hudson yards is about to open full of corporate offices .. with combination of quality of life and educated workforce .. NYC will continue to be a desirable place for large corporations .
The company will not be required to pay the standard 21 percent income tax rate on its 2018 profits, and is claiming a tax rebate of $129 million, which ITEP describes as a "a tax rate of negative 1 percent."
Amazon drew ire in 2018 for not paying federal taxes on its $5.6 billion in profits the year before, which was made possible due to tax credits and stock-based compensation, reports Politifact. Last year was the first time Amazon paid no federal income tax whatsoever.
The company will not be required to pay the standard 21 percent income tax rate on its 2018 profits, and is claiming a tax rebate of $129 million, which ITEP describes as a "a tax rate of negative 1 percent."
Amazon drew ire in 2018 for not paying federal taxes on its $5.6 billion in profits the year before, which was made possible due to tax credits and stock-based compensation, reports Politifact. Last year was the first time Amazon paid no federal income tax whatsoever.
Amazon $0 Taxes - ( New Window )
And they're not the only company, I've read others paying none or hardly any.
Any tax discussion should start here, no?
I guess you can understand why a person scrapping to live pay check to pay check gets PO'd.
tax under the Code but its U.S. employees pay a ton of income tax.
Similarly, if Amazon had come to NY, even though the company itself would've received tax rebates, its employees would've paid NY income (and most of them NYC tax as well) in substantial amounts.
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
Quote:
NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
tax under the Code but its U.S. employees pay a ton of income tax.
Similarly, if Amazon had come to NY, even though the company itself would've received tax rebates, its employees would've paid NY income (and most of them NYC tax as well) in substantial amounts.
Isn't that the argument with these companies, that even though they might not pay taxes, they provide payroll taxes by the large amounts of people they hire?
Still, you'd think with billions in profits, they'd pay something............
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
You only have to look as far as the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin to see what can happen with corporate promises of a fountain of dream jobs in exchange for sweetheart tax breaks.
only half of 25k jobs were high paying
the rest lower paying admin custodian facility jobs ..
this past week city council asked if Amazon would stay neutral if there was push for unionization .. Amazon said they would actively fight against union.
less than a week later Amazon pulls out of NYC.
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
You only have to look as far as the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin to see what can happen with corporate promises of a fountain of dream jobs in exchange for sweetheart tax breaks.
Foxcon was getting more money and creating less jobs (and lower paid jobs at that too).
Foxcon was getting more money and creating less jobs (and lower paid jobs at that too).
Fewer jobs, yes. But the magnitude of the subsidy, at the time the deal was struck, was very similar to the Amazon deal. It increased over time - history (well beyond the Foxconn deal) suggests that very well might have happened here as well.
plus the NYC location was more of a vanity move for Amazon. There was no strategic benefit for an NYC location. From the NY side, the issue was the types of jobs Amazon said they were going to create and the types of jobs they actually would have created. The majority of individual working at the NYC location would not be able to afford to live in NYC.
these are things Amazon had to know would pop up. And the political opposition is relatively small if vocal. The mayor and governor are behind it and public opinion is on their side. A few slight mods to the deal might have been needed but that's it. Pulling out this quick makes me think there's something else at play here. Like maybe NoVa has more room for growth than expected. The original plan, so we thought, was one location. Maybe they went back to that.
This was 25,000 high paying jobs in excess of 100k, Â
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
The people that already live in that area, don't want to be inflated out of the area that they live. That's a fair assessment. Property values may rise, but one would assume property taxes would as well.
but it's also understandable why Amazon did not want to be an ongoing political football for New York progressives, in particular the neophyte flavor of the month. Either rip the Band Aid off now or become an ongoing local punching bag when someone wants to make a few more headlines.
again... where the hell does the 3 Billion come from? Â
explain with the truth. So you start making stuff up like unicorns and alligators. Never face the truth when a good fabrication will do.
This isn't a warehouse - it's a headquarters with white collar workers.
You want to play dumbass politics, at least point the finger in the right direction, namely the people who weren't in favor of the tax breaks required to get Amazon into the state.
@nkolakowski. The HQ2 "search" was always a thinly disguised attempt to extract maximum tax concessions for opening a satellite office. If you want proof of that: Amazon isn't re-opening the HQ2 search, and it's still hiring in NYC.
After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens. For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires getting everything we demand and even some things we don't explicitly ask for from state and local elected officials who will then be at our beck and call over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our subverting entrenched land-use processes and will not work for us to build the type of relationships that we demand to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.
We are disappointed to have reached this conclusion — we love New York, its incomparable dynamism, people, and culture — and particularly the community of Long Island City, where we have gotten to know so many optimistic, forward-leaning community leaders, small business owners, and residents. There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams.
We are deeply grateful to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and their staffs, who so enthusiastically and graciously rolled over for us while we scratched their tummies and then like loyal, good dogs supported us during the process. Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their reach-around efforts. The steadfast commitment and dedication that these leaders have demonstrated to us and the big dicks we swing inspired us from the very beginning and is one of the big reasons our decision was so difficult.
We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.
Thank you again to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and the many other community leaders and residents who, without a whimper, bent over and touched their toes for us along the way. We hope to have future chances to demand and receive tax cuts, land-use overrides, and local government exemptions as we continue to work towards owning all of New York over time.
25,000 high paying jobs is great if you end up working for Amazon. Â
If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
That is more to the point than your unicorn comment. I did not raise the issue of unions in the thread. I just said Amazon is not interested in dealing with them. There was no call for you to attack with denigrating comments.
RE: 25,000 high paying jobs is great if you end up working for Amazon. Â
If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
RE: RE: 25,000 high paying jobs is great if you end up working for Amazon. Â
If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
So gov't can say "they can't do that to our pledges..."
NYC permits remarkably little new construction... Â
which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
RE: This was 25,000 high paying jobs in excess of 100k, Â
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
Why are we in such a rush to believe in that "25,000 amazing jobs" flag? It's quite a carrot on the stick, I know, but why exactly are we giving a giant corporation the benefit of the doubt here?
3. the idea to decentralize corporate growth in other boroughs outside of Manhattan is a decent idea but giving 3 Billion dollar tax break to world's largest corporation was insane - whoever thought this would fly in NYC is crazy.
Well, the likelihood of $27B coming back to NYC over 25yrs seemed like a good deal to me. A 9:1 ROI.
And even if you assume those numbers might by goosed by 25%, you still get $20B+. Still close to a 7:1 ROI.
RE: RE: This was 25,000 high paying jobs in excess of 100k, Â
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
Why are we in such a rush to believe in that "25,000 amazing jobs" flag? It's quite a carrot on the stick, I know, but why exactly are we giving a giant corporation the benefit of the doubt here?
By the same token, it looks as if Amazon gave NYS the benefit of the doubt...and it was misplaced.
RE: RE: RE: 25,000 high paying jobs is great if you end up working for Amazon. Â
If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
So gov't can say "they can't do that to our pledges..."
Well the big problem is that a place like Amazon destroys its competitors and people that sell things online, because they can see that data.
So instead of adding more competition, they find out what sells well, go directly to manufacturers of that product, and then start selling them at a lower price. They then put those smaller companies selling on their website out of business, and have free reign to raise costs.
They will lose massive amounts of money just to get rid of a competitor.
There is a reason relentless.com goes directly to Amazon.
Amazon has an absolute obligation to do what;s best for Amazon and the same applies to the NYC pols. It seems like everyone fulfills those obligations by dissolving the agreement.
but the arguments I've seen on social media both ways seem to elide. For me, the question is: Was NYC/NYS's investment (via tax breaks, incentives, etc.) a good one vis-a-vis other possible investments or uses of money. I don't know the answer to that. But I also don't think it was obviously a great or shitty use of money.
On a side note, I have some friends who work at Amazon, and they tell me they truly have a scary, comprehensive amount of data on us.
NYC isn't going to "reinvest" the money because the money was revenue they would have foregone with the tax breaks. We can (and should) complain about corporate subsidy, and there were other local concerns. But the idea that there are other, better uses of resources misses the mark. The governor complained yesterday that New Yorkers were leaving for better tax states like Florida. This is not going to prevent that from happening.
this sounds like a new stadium extortion with the promise that it will more than pay for itself. Why would any community need to give Amazon tax breaks? What's in it for the people who live in the community now? Too lazy to read through all the both sides of it. Anyone have a quick simmation?
NYC isn't going to "reinvest" the money because the money was revenue they would have foregone with the tax breaks. We can (and should) complain about corporate subsidy, and there were other local concerns. But the idea that there are other, better uses of resources misses the mark. The governor complained yesterday that New Yorkers were leaving for better tax states like Florida. This is not going to prevent that from happening.
You're right, I spoke in shorthand. Theoretically, other companies will use the office space and resources set aside for Amazon to create jobs, NY will not forego that tax revenue with tax breaks, and therefore it will have more total money. While I admit that sounds very theoretical and pie-in-the-sky, Google did announce it was expanding without any tax breaks. So not completely impossible.
RE: Unless someone explains it differently to me Â
this sounds like a new stadium extortion with the promise that it will more than pay for itself. Why would any community need to give Amazon tax breaks? What's in it for the people who live in the community now? Too lazy to read through all the both sides of it. Anyone have a quick simmation?
There's a ton of research demonstrating that stadium construction does very little to boost local employment. (For many reasons: the vast majority of the jobs created are part-time; the players and owners tend not live right near the stadium; etc.)
Amazon is a much different animal: all the jobs are full time; many are high paying; many of the employees will live near campus, etc. So I don't think that's a great comparison.
RE: Unless someone explains it differently to me Â
this sounds like a new stadium extortion with the promise that it will more than pay for itself. Why would any community need to give Amazon tax breaks? What's in it for the people who live in the community now? Too lazy to read through all the both sides of it. Anyone have a quick simmation?
Corporate handouts are usually a mixed bag. Some have been predominately negative, some have had more mixed results. Amazon's probably would have been a significant net benefit, but not uniformly positive (for reasons discussed above, among others). Stadiums are generally an awful investment depending on how much the local and state govts put into it, because the jobs are low-skill, the stadium may host events only a couple dozen days out of the year, etc etc.
well I guess they pack up and go to Shelbyville now... Â
which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
I agree with you, but the problem is exacerbated when you are adding jobs and not housing to keep pace. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to put the onus on the company to add more housing. Nobody wants to add low income housing to their developments unless incentivized.
RE: RE: NYC permits remarkably little new construction... Â
which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
I agree with you, but the problem is exacerbated when you are adding jobs and not housing to keep pace. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to put the onus on the company to add more housing. Nobody wants to add low income housing to their developments unless incentivized.
I think part of the theoretical proposition in this specific case is that Queens is the borough currently undergoing the most gentrification, and that there actually were legitimate opportunities to add housing.
I'm not in a position to attest to the veracity of those claims/assumptions, but adding housing to the market was very much a part of the picture being painted.
Some people seem to think that NYC is a decrepit metropolis... Â
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Yelling about how corporate subsidies should be better spent elsewhere. It’s an insane narrative that shows just how little people understand about the place of corporations within the corporate ecosystem. To hear certain politicians from nyc perpetuate that narrative is just sad and frankly scary
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
Thank you.
Or, you could do a search yourself...
It’s a easy to throw numbers out and say this and that and this is exactly what you get when you can’t back up the information.
I think for most people in the area they were afraid they would get Â
priced out and the infrastructure wouldn’t be able to support the influx of people and businesses. LIC was already the hottest neighborhood in the city before this. A 500sq studio condo goes for 750k at least. 1500$ rent means you are in the living room of a three bedroom apt sharing one bathroom with three other people. 25k jobs making 250k means nothing to NYC, those taxes would be a drop in the bucket. One income family making 250k won’t be raising kids in Manhattan or LIC.
Amazon undoubtedly would have been good for the city as a whole. It’s a big loss for the city for sure. See what Google is doing to the area around Chelsea. For people in the area though, I am sure they aren’t shedding a tear over this. Amazon definitely would’ve attracted businesses that would transform LIC into a destination and not just a collection of skyscrapers. Most of us won’t have to deal with the small inconveniences that would’ve come with the move though in the short term. I guess we can be happy about that.
"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
Stick it to the man baby!!
I think that’s the salient point in all of this. Not the deal itself or what Amazon wanted versus what NY was willing to give, but that the political climate changed in November and Amazon likely felt that they would face overt hostility forever. Likely decided it wasn’t worth the aggravation of fighting uphill forever.
"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
Stick it to the man baby!!
I think that’s the salient point in all of this. Not the deal itself or what Amazon wanted versus what NY was willing to give, but that the political climate changed in November and Amazon likely felt that they would face overt hostility forever. Likely decided it wasn’t worth the aggravation of fighting uphill forever.
Thats exactly what Amazon said “While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.”
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
The problem in the Bay Area is the housing supply hasn't kept pace with the population growth. Same thing in most northern metros certainly NYC, DC, Boston, LA etc. All the talk about companies moving for lower taxes it's probably as much or more about lower cost of living which translates to lower wages they have to pay their employees. These areas need to build more housing but local opposition makes it real hard. Residents in my Northern NJ town blocked a townhouse complex on vacant lot for about 15 years - it's just going up now. Same story all over the place.
In places where jobs are scarce and at a premium, we look like a bunch of ungrateful assholes for turning this down. New York’s public officials should have negotiated wages that worked for blue collar workers in NYC and effects on the neighborhood more effectively so pricing out situations for locals were kept to a bare minimum. But you can’t just turn down that many jobs just by stamping feet and saying Amazon is the devil incarnate and they can’t set foot here
"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
Stick it to the man baby!!
Predictably, giants24 shows up to urinate in the punch bowl.
NYC just turned there backs on 25,000 high paying jobs Â
If people are worried about income inequality, the answer is not to stop creating high paying jobs and only have low paying jobs. These 25000 people would have lived in the Tri-state area and traveled every day into Amazon. In addition to the 25,000 people, business would have flowed into all the restaurants, bars, etc. in the area. Local businesses would have flourished because of supplying goods and services to Amazon and new jobs would have been created at all these "non-Amazon" companies. Plus the tax base would increase.
Killing this is a very short-sighted, political decision. When people see they are left with crappy low paying jobs (or no jobs) I bet the elections will get very interesting.
Also estimates say that another 67,000 jobs would have been created Â
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
Quote:
NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
Those jobs weren't going to anyone in the area.
RE: This was 25,000 high paying jobs in excess of 100k, Â
they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
$150K isn't cutting it in all the new residential buildings in the area. They are all 7 figures.
RE: NYC permits remarkably little new construction... Â
which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
There's not a housing crunch; there is an affordable housing crunch. There is a ton of new development, especially in Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is, most of it is not even close to affordable for the average New Yorker.
1) I work in the building they were supposed to have moved in to. That part never made sense to me because the building is a dump and they seemed intent on not tearing it down for some reason.
2) This is more about politics than anything else. The governor and Mayor illegally cut a back-room deal with Bezos and city council members were pissed that they were bypassed...rightfully so. There are stipulations for the city council to approve all deals involving city owned land/property.
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
4) I am skeptical about the numbers anyway. The $27B over 25 years is being thrown around a lot. It sounds like when they try to sell the public on the benefits of a new stadium or winning a SB or Olympic bid. The reality is there are so many hidden or ignored costs that this is never the actual revenues realized from the deal. I suspect the same is the case here.
5) A big question is does this shatter the credibility of DiBlasio and Cuomo on the national stage?
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
That article is a nice fluff piece, but does nothing to dispel the notion that when it comes toeconomics, she simply doesn't know what she is talking about. She says a lot of nice things with no substance or plans behind them. This $3B was not a tax expenditure. IT was based on a combination of the realized revenues and the corporate behavior.
Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
In places where jobs are scarce and at a premium, we look like a bunch of ungrateful assholes for turning this down. New York’s public officials should have negotiated wages that worked for blue collar workers in NYC and effects on the neighborhood more effectively so pricing out situations for locals were kept to a bare minimum. But you can’t just turn down that many jobs just by stamping feet and saying Amazon is the devil incarnate and they can’t set foot here
Thing is, as a software engineer who is both a hiring manager, and gets hit up by recruiter at least five times a week, we don't need more tech jobs in this city. It's hard enough to fill the jobs that currently exist here. Is that reason to kill this move, probably not, but I honestly believe that they could still add many of those jobs by just expanding their existing presence in the city. Google owns an entire office building in Chelsea, Amazon could have done the same and left LIC out of it.
RE: Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
If your take on this matter is to slam a particular politician, then you should share it elsewhere.
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
RE: RE: RE: Just to remind everyone that there is no political discussion allowed Â
My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
Instead of killing this thread can we please just ban this guy? We were having a pretty sensible discussion that was mostly avoiding politics before he came along. This site is way better when we can have economic discussions that avoid obvious politics. Although there's a political component to all economic discussions, he clearly tried to inject the political element into it. And I can't think of any reason to do it--knowing the rules--other than to stir up shit.
Never let it be said that we don't believe in customer service here at BBI
I could see Amazon going to Detroit or Cleveland Â
Around a lot of politicians and it permiates to general public that “xyz tax breaks would be better spent on schools” and it’s damaging because the tax break is based on the future revenue of that company at that location. Unless there is a bidding war for the location among similar companies and the government gives it to a company that it has also given a tax break too there is nothing coming out of pocket from taxpayer. The amount of folks in Newark uttering that sentiment when they were in the running for Amazon was scary and it ends up crippling an electorate. Nj.com will have a headline 3 billion to amazon and that is all people seem to grasp.
Also this is more of a comment on the poster because I am legitimately confused, why is winning a science fair relevant to an economic analysis. It’s a really odd thing to post.
Amazon could turn around a community, Syracuse, Rochester, Binghamton.
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
If Amazon could, they would in a second. It would cost them nothing to deploy, and the press they'd get for it would probably outweigh the business benefits.
But finding enough skilled talent in a location like that would be next to impossible, and trying to import them would be even harder.
This is very simple, more political nonsense back and forth like usual. Amazon announces the deal along with the incentives, and politicians play up the sweetheart nature of the deal and make it seem like Cuomo gave NYC away. Politicians on both sides, just playing their own respective angles.
The deal hits some pushback, and now Amazon is pulling out. In record time, without even that much pushback. At a point in our economy where it seems like a decline is inevitable in the near term, so it's just as likely Amazon has decided against such a large expansion (they announced they're not building a new location but they're going to expand their existing hubs, and by fewer staff).
So now more political wrangling by both sides ("we lost those jobs" vs "we big a big corporation"). And our citizens are just as bad, feeding into this stupid cheerleading by bringing up pointless, unrelated items like union labor for what would have been an all white collar location.
This country can't get past it's love for mindless partisan politics, and we're doomed as a result.
But I think if amazon wasn’t so arrogant by making a big spectacle of their search of a “Q2” they could have enjoyed nice tax breaks while quietly moving into queens. I’m not totally against the Concessions they were set to revive but I find it a bit distasteful that they leveraged cities against each other in the media
Recruitment was going to be a bear. There's a drought of qualified workers. Amazon themselves is having a hard time recruiting for their other local shops right now.
LIC has been positioning and developing to be an outlet for office and condo space to Manhattan for 2 decades. The only reason anyone outside of New York knows what LIC is because it's been built to literally be what's it's become -- a mini-Midtown. It's not like Amazon, or Citi, or soon to be Bloomingdale's is crashing into Brooklyn Heights and kicking out families. This is literally city planning by design.
Policy-wise I'm of the mind NYC shouldn't be giving tax incentives to any businesses. The city should reap all of the gains always.
What the city can do in those instances is improve infrastructure to account for growth. I would have loved a plan centered around using projected tax revenue for expanded bike lanes, an overground walk way, and expanded subway entrances.
There are ways for public policy to be part of the solution of expansion without foregoing future revenue.
This is what I gleaned from reading some other sources. Basically, the mayor and governor negotiated a deal without the community. In the end, the community complained....one of the fears is people would be forced out/priced out of their neighborhoods due to the influx of workers needed.
NY certainly lost a big pay day I guess, but in the end, the little guy one.
Amazon could have come into LIC and gotten the exact same tax break deal but included in the deal something forces city to fix signaling problem in the subway
It would have given politicians covers to actually fix a huge problem in the city and
Amazon would have been considered heroes .
but instead Amazon came in to LIC arrogantly wanting a helipad and promising to bust unions .
was the fruit of some people sounding like idiots on Twitter and in the press and trying to double down. It's simple arithmetic. If I forego a percentage of revenue I would gain from a revenue stream but otherwise glean the rest of that stream, I have more than I started with. If I forego the whole of that revenue stream, I do not. Yes the promised revenue sometimes (often times) falls short of expectations. Yes another, similarly sized employer without a subsidy would (presumably) produce a comparable or greater amount of revenue, but there is no similarly sized employer. Google's growth was independent of Amazon's.
[quote}Suggesting they would oppose unionization..and promising to bust unions are not synonymous. This isn't 1890, they're not hiring a legion of Pinkertons..[/quote]
sorry for my incorrect phrasing
Amazon has fulfillment center in Staten Island with 2,500 employees- Amazon is determined they don't unionize
I really think the unionization issue was the straw that broke the camels back
but even if Amazon wins that fight, the NYC progressives would benefit from having a non-unionized Amazon near at hand to bash. They're a convenient villain, even though it'll be a cold day in hell before most of these folks forego what Amazon has to offer.
It sounds to me like this is the first time downstaters have heard one of these sales pitches. Oodles of high paying jobs. the multiplier factor (pitch in a dollar and ten come back your way).
Usually, if you dig down a little, you find wildly optimistic estimates, hidden costs, magical math, etc.
Perhaps this was a golden opportunity missed. My experience with gov't giveaways leads me to a kneejerk reaction of Phew! the taxpayers dodged a bullet.
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
The world is becoming more and more virtual.
maybe they need a critical mass in one place, but for an HQ2 my assumption was most jobs could be done virtually.
I worked for a major (fortune 50) company before my current job and any time I'd go to any of our major hub offices, even HQ, it was like tumbleweeds rolling though the building. the only people there were those who had to come in for meetings and millennials.
I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
But I think if amazon wasn’t so arrogant by making a big spectacle of their search of a “Q2” they could have enjoyed nice tax breaks while quietly moving into queens. I’m not totally against the Concessions they were set to revive but I find it a bit distasteful that they leveraged cities against each other in the media
Close your eye3s when they talk about Olympic host cities.
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
The location is important for their clients, retailer relationships (especially sales and affiliates), the travel for international clients etc.
My last and current company are major Amazon partners both on the retail and AWS (major revenue for both accounts) -- getting to Seattle is a pain and not productive because no one else is there.
They'll have a big tech shop on the East coast, but having a presence is just as important.
The Chelsea Google shop is chalk full of sales and relationship people. My last job was a top 10 SEM customer topline for Google, being able to get over in-person and quickly settle issues literally saved me 100s of thousands dollars productivity.
I'm literally making Amazon decisions right now based on a future relationship on the East coast.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
It's not quite that simple.
First of all, there's no guarantee that they would have added anywhere near that number of jobs. Anyone who has paid attention to these sorts of deals should know that the companies almost over-promise and under-deliver.
Second, NYC is not Detroit. While it's certainly nice to have more job, it's really a drop in the bucket compared to the economic activity of NYC and the NY greater metro.
Third, for a lot of the really high-end jobs, Amazon would be poaching a lot of them from existing NYC/NY firms. How would you feel if you were a small dev shop and NY State was subsidizing the company that was hiring away your best talent?
Fourth, none of this would come without disruption or cost. Plunking an HQ2 in LIC would cause a lot of issues with respect to transit, housing, schools and other infrastructure concerns. These are things that government would to have to spend a lot of money to mitigate. This is on top of the money they would already be giving Amazon to move there.
At the end of the day, whether you think HQ2 was a good idea or not for LIC, it's clear that everyone involved in planning this botched the deal. The push back from the community and local pols should have been expected.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
RE: RE: RE: How are the local politicians ever .... Â
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. NYC is still one of the most economically powerful cities in the world, second only to Tokyo in GDP.
9/11 did result in the destruction of 13 million square feet of office space at the World Trade Center complex, but 38 million square feet of space have been added since then, with more than half that added in the past five years.
Every major tech company has offices in NYC. If people are leaving NYC, it's because they can't make it there. Far more companies are moving in than moving out.
Since 2009, the City has added more than 620,000 jobs, raising the total to 4.3 million. Office-based employment increased by 202,000 jobs, reaching a record 1.5 million in 2016.
Word is they will not seek a new location.
In comment 14296601 Ssanders9816 said:
Quote:
I work right across the street from the proposed Montgomery County MD location and a big helicopter has been circling the space. Made me think I wonder if it was the Amazon people and the NYC deal fell through.
Word is they will not seek a new location.
Cuomo seems to be blaming pols and not Amazon.
Sometimes a thing is exactly what it purports to be.
Quote:
To get a better deal in Washington. That’s what Amazon does. Not surprising.
Cuomo seems to be blaming pols and not Amazon.
Sometimes a thing is exactly what it purports to be.
You talking Washington DC (the other new location) or Washington state? What did they offer since LIC was chosen that would entice Amazon to change course?
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
Quote:
In comment 14296613 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
To get a better deal in Washington. That’s what Amazon does. Not surprising.
Cuomo seems to be blaming pols and not Amazon.
Sometimes a thing is exactly what it purports to be.
You talking Washington DC (the other new location) or Washington state? What did they offer since LIC was chosen that would entice Amazon to change course?
They got NYC to agree to a huge tax break, took that offer had DC match or beat it because that’s where they ultimately wanted it to be, probably to get government contracts. Now they are pulling out and making it out to be NYCs problem.
They do this shit all the time with products. Get someone to start selling on Amazon and then undercut them after they figure out what’s selling.
They need to be regulated. They need to be in DC to buddy up the senators so they don’t change anti-trust laws.
They got NYC to agree to a huge tax break, took that offer had DC match or beat it because that’s where they ultimately wanted it to be, probably to get government contracts. Now they are pulling out and making it out to be NYCs problem.
They do this shit all the time with products. Get someone to start selling on Amazon and then undercut them after they figure out what’s selling.
They need to be regulated. They need to be in DC to buddy up the senators so they don’t change anti-trust laws.
They didn't need NYC in the running to get Virginia/DC to offer massive tax breaks. Those areas offered the breaks on their own volition.
And several sites offered significantly more than NYC or DC (e.g. Newark) and were still turned down.
rim shot
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
I agree. I was shocked that NY was on the list to begin with. No real surprise Amazon isn't going there.
When companies are leaving the NY area in droves due to increased costs.... why on earth would one of the largest companies in the country move in?
Moving to the NY area is a major financial mistake for any company that does not rely on BEING in NY to exist (ie a restaurant, financial services maybe, or a roofing company).
Plenty of large companies are expanding into the NYC area, most notably Google.
For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive, collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City," the statement reads.
Oh well - would have been good to have another large tech employer in NYC, but it's not the end of the world.
While you would have a broad employee and talent base, wouldn't NY ultimately be more of a headache for Amazon?
Delaware comes to mind as an easier state to work from.
Just my 2 cents.
is that figure not true?
2 I actually think it was the pro union push that ultimately spooked Amazon out of NYC.
3. the idea to decentralize corporate growth in other boroughs outside of Manhattan is a decent idea but giving 3 Billion dollar tax break to world's largest corporation was insane - whoever thought this would fly in NYC is crazy.
4. As someone mentioned Google is about to do big expansion in west side of downtown and Hudson yards is about to open full of corporate offices .. with combination of quality of life and educated workforce .. NYC will continue to be a desirable place for large corporations .
Amazon drew ire in 2018 for not paying federal taxes on its $5.6 billion in profits the year before, which was made possible due to tax credits and stock-based compensation, reports Politifact. Last year was the first time Amazon paid no federal income tax whatsoever.
Amazon $0 Taxes - ( New Window )
Quote:
The company will not be required to pay the standard 21 percent income tax rate on its 2018 profits, and is claiming a tax rebate of $129 million, which ITEP describes as a "a tax rate of negative 1 percent."
Amazon drew ire in 2018 for not paying federal taxes on its $5.6 billion in profits the year before, which was made possible due to tax credits and stock-based compensation, reports Politifact. Last year was the first time Amazon paid no federal income tax whatsoever.
Amazon $0 Taxes - ( New Window )
And they're not the only company, I've read others paying none or hardly any.
Any tax discussion should start here, no?
I guess you can understand why a person scrapping to live pay check to pay check gets PO'd.
Similarly, if Amazon had come to NY, even though the company itself would've received tax rebates, its employees would've paid NY income (and most of them NYC tax as well) in substantial amounts.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
Similarly, if Amazon had come to NY, even though the company itself would've received tax rebates, its employees would've paid NY income (and most of them NYC tax as well) in substantial amounts.
Isn't that the argument with these companies, that even though they might not pay taxes, they provide payroll taxes by the large amounts of people they hire?
Still, you'd think with billions in profits, they'd pay something............
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
You only have to look as far as the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin to see what can happen with corporate promises of a fountain of dream jobs in exchange for sweetheart tax breaks.
the rest lower paying admin custodian facility jobs ..
this past week city council asked if Amazon would stay neutral if there was push for unionization .. Amazon said they would actively fight against union.
less than a week later Amazon pulls out of NYC.
Quote:
Those who fought the opening of the Amazon HQ in Long Island City have won the battle but they are surely losing the war.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
You only have to look as far as the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin to see what can happen with corporate promises of a fountain of dream jobs in exchange for sweetheart tax breaks.
Foxcon was getting more money and creating less jobs (and lower paid jobs at that too).
Fewer jobs, yes. But the magnitude of the subsidy, at the time the deal was struck, was very similar to the Amazon deal. It increased over time - history (well beyond the Foxconn deal) suggests that very well might have happened here as well.
I dont blame them and that makes sense. Unions are the death of many businesses.
yeah it was unions that destroyed the economy in 2008
The people that already live in that area, don't want to be inflated out of the area that they live. That's a fair assessment. Property values may rise, but one would assume property taxes would as well.
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They are not interested in dealing with unions.
I dont blame them and that makes sense. Unions are the death of many businesses.
Brilliant analysis guys. Local 314, Association of Data Scientists and Cloud Engineers.
Unions is on the list of reasons Amazon didn't come to NYC, right after alligators and unicorns.
This isn't a warehouse - it's a headquarters with white collar workers.
You want to play dumbass politics, at least point the finger in the right direction, namely the people who weren't in favor of the tax breaks required to get Amazon into the state.
After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens. For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires getting everything we demand and even some things we don't explicitly ask for from state and local elected officials who will then be at our beck and call over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our subverting entrenched land-use processes and will not work for us to build the type of relationships that we demand to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.
We are disappointed to have reached this conclusion — we love New York, its incomparable dynamism, people, and culture — and particularly the community of Long Island City, where we have gotten to know so many optimistic, forward-leaning community leaders, small business owners, and residents. There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams.
We are deeply grateful to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and their staffs, who so enthusiastically and graciously rolled over for us while we scratched their tummies and then like loyal, good dogs supported us during the process. Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their reach-around efforts. The steadfast commitment and dedication that these leaders have demonstrated to us and the big dicks we swing inspired us from the very beginning and is one of the big reasons our decision was so difficult.
We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.
Thank you again to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and the many other community leaders and residents who, without a whimper, bent over and touched their toes for us along the way. We hope to have future chances to demand and receive tax cuts, land-use overrides, and local government exemptions as we continue to work towards owning all of New York over time.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
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If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
So gov't can say "they can't do that to our pledges..."
Why are we in such a rush to believe in that "25,000 amazing jobs" flag? It's quite a carrot on the stick, I know, but why exactly are we giving a giant corporation the benefit of the doubt here?
3. the idea to decentralize corporate growth in other boroughs outside of Manhattan is a decent idea but giving 3 Billion dollar tax break to world's largest corporation was insane - whoever thought this would fly in NYC is crazy.
Well, the likelihood of $27B coming back to NYC over 25yrs seemed like a good deal to me. A 9:1 ROI.
And even if you assume those numbers might by goosed by 25%, you still get $20B+. Still close to a 7:1 ROI.
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they could afford to live in the area if they wanted too. They also could have followed the time honored tradition of living in New Jersey and commuting.
Why are we in such a rush to believe in that "25,000 amazing jobs" flag? It's quite a carrot on the stick, I know, but why exactly are we giving a giant corporation the benefit of the doubt here?
By the same token, it looks as if Amazon gave NYS the benefit of the doubt...and it was misplaced.
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In comment 14296804 BH28 said:
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If you don't and live in that area, you are going to get squeezed. Housing (rent/property values) will start to skyrocket.
I think that has always been the argument is that HQs like this need to come with some sort of housing or low income housing guarantee attached to it.
I live in the Bay Area and rents/property values are the biggest concerns. Rents are so bad that google/fb/etc are building their own campuses to house employees rather than let them deal with finding housing on their own. If you make minimum wage in the bay, you are commuting two hours to work or having many roomates to make ends meet.
There was probably a middle ground where Amazon gets its tax breaks but invests in low income housing or something like that.
The state of the Super Companies that provide housing to employees is quite scary to me. They are probably tracking everything you do in one of those places. When do you have your own time? Etc.
Amazon is the scariest of them all since the own the largest amount of the biggest commodity right now. Data. AWS collects so much data on everyone it's terrifying. Netflix is even on AWS.
Anti-trust laws need to be made to stop some of this, as the size and power of these places is getting to big.
So gov't can say "they can't do that to our pledges..."
Well the big problem is that a place like Amazon destroys its competitors and people that sell things online, because they can see that data.
So instead of adding more competition, they find out what sells well, go directly to manufacturers of that product, and then start selling them at a lower price. They then put those smaller companies selling on their website out of business, and have free reign to raise costs.
They will lose massive amounts of money just to get rid of a competitor.
There is a reason relentless.com goes directly to Amazon.
Check out what they did to diapers.com
Diapers.com - ( New Window )
Amazon said half of total jobs would be high paying the rest would be support staff.
On a side note, I have some friends who work at Amazon, and they tell me they truly have a scary, comprehensive amount of data on us.
You're right, I spoke in shorthand. Theoretically, other companies will use the office space and resources set aside for Amazon to create jobs, NY will not forego that tax revenue with tax breaks, and therefore it will have more total money. While I admit that sounds very theoretical and pie-in-the-sky, Google did announce it was expanding without any tax breaks. So not completely impossible.
There's a ton of research demonstrating that stadium construction does very little to boost local employment. (For many reasons: the vast majority of the jobs created are part-time; the players and owners tend not live right near the stadium; etc.)
Amazon is a much different animal: all the jobs are full time; many are high paying; many of the employees will live near campus, etc. So I don't think that's a great comparison.
Corporate handouts are usually a mixed bag. Some have been predominately negative, some have had more mixed results. Amazon's probably would have been a significant net benefit, but not uniformly positive (for reasons discussed above, among others). Stadiums are generally an awful investment depending on how much the local and state govts put into it, because the jobs are low-skill, the stadium may host events only a couple dozen days out of the year, etc etc.
I agree with you, but the problem is exacerbated when you are adding jobs and not housing to keep pace. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to put the onus on the company to add more housing. Nobody wants to add low income housing to their developments unless incentivized.
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which is a good bit of why they have such a housing crunch. In a healthy housing and job market the influx of new, higher-paying jobs would be largely beneficial in that it would produce umpteen secondary and tertiary job creation effects. As with San Francisco, the utter shortage of even semi-affordable housing is largely the function of bad policy, not a misfunctioning market.
I agree with you, but the problem is exacerbated when you are adding jobs and not housing to keep pace. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to put the onus on the company to add more housing. Nobody wants to add low income housing to their developments unless incentivized.
I think part of the theoretical proposition in this specific case is that Queens is the borough currently undergoing the most gentrification, and that there actually were legitimate opportunities to add housing.
I'm not in a position to attest to the veracity of those claims/assumptions, but adding housing to the market was very much a part of the picture being painted.
Even if Amazon brought all those 25,000 jobs, they still wouldn't crack the top 20 of NYC employers.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
Thank you.
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That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
Thank you.
Or, you could do a search yourself...
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In comment 14296989 since1925 said:
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That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Please provide sources and data to show these numbers.
Thank you.
Or, you could do a search yourself...
It’s a easy to throw numbers out and say this and that and this is exactly what you get when you can’t back up the information.
Amazon undoubtedly would have been good for the city as a whole. It’s a big loss for the city for sure. See what Google is doing to the area around Chelsea. For people in the area though, I am sure they aren’t shedding a tear over this. Amazon definitely would’ve attracted businesses that would transform LIC into a destination and not just a collection of skyscrapers. Most of us won’t have to deal with the small inconveniences that would’ve come with the move though in the short term. I guess we can be happy about that.
Stick it to the man baby!!
Stick it to the man baby!!
I think that’s the salient point in all of this. Not the deal itself or what Amazon wanted versus what NY was willing to give, but that the political climate changed in November and Amazon likely felt that they would face overt hostility forever. Likely decided it wasn’t worth the aggravation of fighting uphill forever.
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"Anything is possible: today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world."
Stick it to the man baby!!
I think that’s the salient point in all of this. Not the deal itself or what Amazon wanted versus what NY was willing to give, but that the political climate changed in November and Amazon likely felt that they would face overt hostility forever. Likely decided it wasn’t worth the aggravation of fighting uphill forever.
Thats exactly what Amazon said “While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.”
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
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That's a lot. But Amazon would have generated $27 billion in the first $10 years alone.
The sheer stupidity of the city and state is mind blowing. When that kind of return on investment is too complex for people to understand, you deserve what you get.
Numbers don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the whole truth. You create a culture of haves and have-nots with these kinds of jobs. Everyone who has one of these shiney new high-tech jobs will easily out bid and drive the prices on once middle-class homes and communities. Everyone else will either try and make it work due to increased prices of everything else or be forced out. Look at the Bay Area.
The problem in the Bay Area is the housing supply hasn't kept pace with the population growth. Same thing in most northern metros certainly NYC, DC, Boston, LA etc. All the talk about companies moving for lower taxes it's probably as much or more about lower cost of living which translates to lower wages they have to pay their employees. These areas need to build more housing but local opposition makes it real hard. Residents in my Northern NJ town blocked a townhouse complex on vacant lot for about 15 years - it's just going up now. Same story all over the place.
Stick it to the man baby!!
Predictably, giants24 shows up to urinate in the punch bowl.
Killing this is a very short-sighted, political decision. When people see they are left with crappy low paying jobs (or no jobs) I bet the elections will get very interesting.
They have "cut off their nose to spite their face".
Good for them.
Where will they find employment?
Amazon was offering 25,000 new high paying jobs.
For the $3B in incentives this is what NYC and NYS were receiving;
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NYC would benefit from 25,000 permanent well paying jobs
In addition to the permanent jobs, NYC would benefit from thousands of construction jobs.
The locals were to have free training so that they would be have the prerequisite skills to obtain the employment opportunity
Increased Real Estate taxes
Increased Employment and payroll taxes
Increased Income taxes on those working in the facility
Increased activity and local spending by the Amazon employees.
Improved rail and ferry access to NYC.
Improved infrastructure.
New businesses moving in that are ancillary to Amazon
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and her constituents are going to be sorely disappointed if they believe that the incentive money will now go to low income housing.
The money does not exist. It came in tax reductions, Bonding, Infrastructure spending etc.
2) This is more about politics than anything else. The governor and Mayor illegally cut a back-room deal with Bezos and city council members were pissed that they were bypassed...rightfully so. There are stipulations for the city council to approve all deals involving city owned land/property.
3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
4) I am skeptical about the numbers anyway. The $27B over 25 years is being thrown around a lot. It sounds like when they try to sell the public on the benefits of a new stadium or winning a SB or Olympic bid. The reality is there are so many hidden or ignored costs that this is never the actual revenues realized from the deal. I suspect the same is the case here.
5) A big question is does this shatter the credibility of DiBlasio and Cuomo on the national stage?
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
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3) AOC is a fucking moron. She is talking about spending the $3B on infrastructure like education. It isn't fucking money the city was handing over to Amazon and now has freed up to spend. Without the deal, there is no $3B.
Or perhaps all tax breaks are actually tax expenditures if you want to view from a true policy cost perspective. Just sayin
Moron!! - ( New Window )
Thing is, as a software engineer who is both a hiring manager, and gets hit up by recruiter at least five times a week, we don't need more tech jobs in this city. It's hard enough to fill the jobs that currently exist here. Is that reason to kill this move, probably not, but I honestly believe that they could still add many of those jobs by just expanding their existing presence in the city. Google owns an entire office building in Chelsea, Amazon could have done the same and left LIC out of it.
Spoke way too soon. Stick to the economic/financial arguments.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
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My take isn't to slam her as a politician, but as a public figure making stupid comments with no basis. IF you want to continue this discussion without discussing her, I'm fine with that. But, there were several others who brought her up first,.
Yes, and I'm weighing in now to tell everyone to stop it.
Instead of killing this thread can we please just ban this guy? We were having a pretty sensible discussion that was mostly avoiding politics before he came along. This site is way better when we can have economic discussions that avoid obvious politics. Although there's a political component to all economic discussions, he clearly tried to inject the political element into it. And I can't think of any reason to do it--knowing the rules--other than to stir up shit.
Never let it be said that we don't believe in customer service here at BBI
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
Also this is more of a comment on the poster because I am legitimately confused, why is winning a science fair relevant to an economic analysis. It’s a really odd thing to post.
NYC is over populated. Rush hour ends at 10:00 and starts at 2:00
If Amazon could, they would in a second. It would cost them nothing to deploy, and the press they'd get for it would probably outweigh the business benefits.
But finding enough skilled talent in a location like that would be next to impossible, and trying to import them would be even harder.
This is very simple, more political nonsense back and forth like usual. Amazon announces the deal along with the incentives, and politicians play up the sweetheart nature of the deal and make it seem like Cuomo gave NYC away. Politicians on both sides, just playing their own respective angles.
The deal hits some pushback, and now Amazon is pulling out. In record time, without even that much pushback. At a point in our economy where it seems like a decline is inevitable in the near term, so it's just as likely Amazon has decided against such a large expansion (they announced they're not building a new location but they're going to expand their existing hubs, and by fewer staff).
So now more political wrangling by both sides ("we lost those jobs" vs "we big a big corporation"). And our citizens are just as bad, feeding into this stupid cheerleading by bringing up pointless, unrelated items like union labor for what would have been an all white collar location.
This country can't get past it's love for mindless partisan politics, and we're doomed as a result.
LIC has been positioning and developing to be an outlet for office and condo space to Manhattan for 2 decades. The only reason anyone outside of New York knows what LIC is because it's been built to literally be what's it's become -- a mini-Midtown. It's not like Amazon, or Citi, or soon to be Bloomingdale's is crashing into Brooklyn Heights and kicking out families. This is literally city planning by design.
Policy-wise I'm of the mind NYC shouldn't be giving tax incentives to any businesses. The city should reap all of the gains always.
What the city can do in those instances is improve infrastructure to account for growth. I would have loved a plan centered around using projected tax revenue for expanded bike lanes, an overground walk way, and expanded subway entrances.
There are ways for public policy to be part of the solution of expansion without foregoing future revenue.
There is a well kept secret about UNY, all jokes aside.
The quality of life is terrific if you like open spaces and outdoor activities and convenience.
This is what I gleaned from reading some other sources. Basically, the mayor and governor negotiated a deal without the community. In the end, the community complained....one of the fears is people would be forced out/priced out of their neighborhoods due to the influx of workers needed.
NY certainly lost a big pay day I guess, but in the end, the little guy one.
In some ways, that is good.
It would have given politicians covers to actually fix a huge problem in the city and
Amazon would have been considered heroes .
but instead Amazon came in to LIC arrogantly wanting a helipad and promising to bust unions .
She makes one hell of a bloody mary though
sorry for my incorrect phrasing
Amazon has fulfillment center in Staten Island with 2,500 employees- Amazon is determined they don't unionize
I really think the unionization issue was the straw that broke the camels back
It sounds to me like this is the first time downstaters have heard one of these sales pitches. Oodles of high paying jobs. the multiplier factor (pitch in a dollar and ten come back your way).
Usually, if you dig down a little, you find wildly optimistic estimates, hidden costs, magical math, etc.
Perhaps this was a golden opportunity missed. My experience with gov't giveaways leads me to a kneejerk reaction of Phew! the taxpayers dodged a bullet.
The world is becoming more and more virtual.
maybe they need a critical mass in one place, but for an HQ2 my assumption was most jobs could be done virtually.
I worked for a major (fortune 50) company before my current job and any time I'd go to any of our major hub offices, even HQ, it was like tumbleweeds rolling though the building. the only people there were those who had to come in for meetings and millennials.
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
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I never understood
why location really matters if it's not a distribution center.
the idea was that LIC would become a new business hub .. this would decentralize the commute for many NYers ... instead of everyone coming into Manhattan for work .. LIC would alleviate this.
I actually think that now would be perfect time to invest in real estate in LIC.. i am sure there is going to be panic selling because of Amazon but even though Amazon is not moving there -- they obviously did a ton of research and decide it was a perfect place to put 25k Jobs . it is inevitable that other companies are going to move into LIC -- the genie is out of the bottle.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
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My point is most of these jobs probably won't require physical in-office presence.
just the way it seems the corporate world is trending.
actually this isn't true for the big tech firms like... Google Amazon Apple Facebook have few workers that work remotely . this is both a security issue and a corporate culture issue
which is ironic since they all tout their products as solutions for remote workers ..
Are you sure?
Why Big Companies like Amazon and Apple Embrace Telecommuting - ( New Window )
Close your eye3s when they talk about Olympic host cities.
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
the high wage jobs that amazon was touting in NYC would not be remote jobs
the jobs that amazon and apple allow to work remotely are customer service type positions
many small companies (in NYC) allow engineers and developers to work remotely
but big tech companies like google amazon apple etc .. do not allow this at all
the only big company that I know of in NYC that allows high wage developers to work remotely is IBM
Ok
My last and current company are major Amazon partners both on the retail and AWS (major revenue for both accounts) -- getting to Seattle is a pain and not productive because no one else is there.
They'll have a big tech shop on the East coast, but having a presence is just as important.
The Chelsea Google shop is chalk full of sales and relationship people. My last job was a top 10 SEM customer topline for Google, being able to get over in-person and quickly settle issues literally saved me 100s of thousands dollars productivity.
I'm literally making Amazon decisions right now based on a future relationship on the East coast.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
That would be my platform right there ... no matter what the details.
It's not quite that simple.
First of all, there's no guarantee that they would have added anywhere near that number of jobs. Anyone who has paid attention to these sorts of deals should know that the companies almost over-promise and under-deliver.
Second, NYC is not Detroit. While it's certainly nice to have more job, it's really a drop in the bucket compared to the economic activity of NYC and the NY greater metro.
Third, for a lot of the really high-end jobs, Amazon would be poaching a lot of them from existing NYC/NY firms. How would you feel if you were a small dev shop and NY State was subsidizing the company that was hiring away your best talent?
Fourth, none of this would come without disruption or cost. Plunking an HQ2 in LIC would cause a lot of issues with respect to transit, housing, schools and other infrastructure concerns. These are things that government would to have to spend a lot of money to mitigate. This is on top of the money they would already be giving Amazon to move there.
At the end of the day, whether you think HQ2 was a good idea or not for LIC, it's clear that everyone involved in planning this botched the deal. The push back from the community and local pols should have been expected.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
This is New York. It's not East Bumble, Kansas. People aren't going to bend over just because Amazon waves some shiny jobs around.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
True, just as long as everyone also realizes that NY is no big deal either. There really is little attraction or benefit at this point.
By the way, the NY economy is not what is used to be. Aside from all of the companies moving out due to being over taxed, 9/11 had a huge impact. I read somewhere that there was as much office space in the twin towers as there is in the entire city of Cincinnati.
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. NYC is still one of the most economically powerful cities in the world, second only to Tokyo in GDP.
9/11 did result in the destruction of 13 million square feet of office space at the World Trade Center complex, but 38 million square feet of space have been added since then, with more than half that added in the past five years.
Every major tech company has offices in NYC. If people are leaving NYC, it's because they can't make it there. Far more companies are moving in than moving out.
Since 2009, the City has added more than 620,000 jobs, raising the total to 4.3 million. Office-based employment increased by 202,000 jobs, reaching a record 1.5 million in 2016.