I mean this question as: 1) who was the worst starter on each of the 4 teams, and also 2) who was the worst one of all on all of the Giants Super Bowl teams combined?
Bonus question: if we include Super Bowl XXXV (which I'm not), would the answer be Dave Thomas?
I have to say given my age that I know a lot more about the later 2 super bowl teams. Maybe James Butler on the 2007 team? Jake Ballard on the 2011 team? That's not to knock either player as both played their own roles in those championships, but have to pick one.
On the 1986 team I have to imagine it's one of the DBs, right? I mean hell with that front 7 the cast of the Golden Girls could have been the DBs and that team still would have won the Super Bowl.
But who was the worst starter of all? I'll let the older BBIers vote on that one.
1986 you had Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson, and Manual - who was the best of the three - who was injured for awhile and I think missed the SB.
1990 had Stephen Baker and Mark Ingram. Both of whom came up big in the SB though.
This is a good question. Tough one to answer.
The safety who should have scared you was SS Kenny Hill. He was slower than cold molasses running uphill, just a dreadful coverage safety who was genuinely poor in run support as well. When he played "along" Terry Kinard in cover 2, it was like Kinnard playing cover 1 with a Bloomingdale's mannequin next to him.
One play the Jerry Rice made against Mark Collins for an 80 yard last minute 80 yard TD to give the 9ers a win over the Giants, Collins had great coverage, but Montana made a perfect heave and Rice just went up and got it, in perfect stride. Anyway I was sure Collins would tackle Rice, he was right with him and Rice wasn't faster than Collins, who was a sure tackler.
Hill comes over too late to help, but just in time to knock Collins off Rice and allow Rice to go the distance. Fooking Kenny Hill, I hated that guy.
Of the 4 winning teams-
Herb Welch, (would you put Toast here too?)
James butler and Reggie torbor
1986 Bill Ard
1990 Steve Deossie
2007 Madison; just can't decide between Madison Hitchcock and
33 year old Sam Madison
2011 Will Beatty
He held up and was a decent center.
Are we talking their efforts for that year or career?
with Lee Rouson
I beleive he was on both of the first two Super Bowl teams.
Career 3.6 Y/A, and stayed in the league a long time. No power. Regarded as a slasher, whose real talent was sharp cutbacks into his own pulling guard....
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I tell you who scared the heck out of me when the Giants lost Terry Kinard. It was Herb Welch. But he held up OK.
The safety who should have scared you was SS Kenny Hill. He was slower than cold molasses running uphill, just a dreadful coverage safety who was genuinely poor in run support as well. When he played "along" Terry Kinard in cover 2, it was like Kinnard playing cover 1 with a Bloomingdale's mannequin next to him.
One play the Jerry Rice made against Mark Collins for an 80 yard last minute 80 yard TD to give the 9ers a win over the Giants, Collins had great coverage, but Montana made a perfect heave and Rice just went up and got it, in perfect stride. Anyway I was sure Collins would tackle Rice, he was right with him and Rice wasn't faster than Collins, who was a sure tackler.
Hill comes over too late to help, but just in time to knock Collins off Rice and allow Rice to go the distance. Fooking Kenny Hill, I hated that guy.
I was not a big fan of Kenny Hill, but he had one thing going for him. He was a dick. He brought some of that Raider "fuck you" attitude with him. If there was a fight on the field, Hill - was a dirty player - was always in the middle of it.
I remember a Giants-Redskins game where as Hill was walking off the field after a special teams play, he casually punched a couple of Redskins on his way to the bench. He eventually got thrown out of the game.
You thought Hill was a slug? How about Bill Currier?
I have Patterson's autograph. He signed it "Toast #34".
But alas, Toast will always have this moment!
https://youtu.be/TMgUV0I3CDA?t=283 - ( New Window )
This was my first thought too.
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were the first two names that leaped to mind.
But alas, Toast will always have this moment! https://youtu.be/TMgUV0I3CDA?t=283 - ( New Window )
And he picked off Elway in the Super Bowl. I mean, a lot of people did in the late 80s, but Toast was one of them.
Dave Thomas will always be the answer for me. God he was awful.
Say what you want about Blackburn but he came up big in the Indy SB.
...Bill Belichick told him E.X.A.C.T.L.Y. what to do, and he listened very carefully.
That's it.
He just couldn't PLAY.
Of the 4 winning teams-
Herb Welch, (would you put Toast here too?)
James butler and Reggie torbor
Great thread by the way...
I'm with the Elephant here - James Butler easily first followed closely by by Herb Welch and Elvis Patterson.
Jake Ballard was a little sketchy at TE as well. David Baas was no great shakes at Center in the last Super Bowl
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were the first two names that leaped to mind.
But alas, Toast will always have this moment! https://youtu.be/TMgUV0I3CDA?t=283 - ( New Window )
I remember that like it was yesterday...
Dave Thomas will always be the answer for me. God he was awful.
I actually thought Thomas was pretty good. If he just would have taken those cement shoes off, he would have been perfect... lol
The answer is Reggie Torbor. The invisible man. I remember Carl Banks and Harry Carson raving about him and I was stoked, but geez, that dude just took up space. It WOULD have been Mark Ingram, but there was this fucking insanely great play, you see...
Arguments could be made for Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson or virtually any other bastard wearing a 80's series number through the Parcells year, Bavaro being the lone exception.
A good Giants receiver was a solid C+. Lionel Manuel accidentally got 1,000+ with Simms in his prime, but fuck Lionel Manuel.
the answer is Eli Manning
If you remember, he was cut after the opening loss to the Bears because he took himself out of the game after warmups because he said he had cramps. The Giants thought he could have played and they ended up getting burned on 2 deep TDs in that game from Tomczak.
What's funny, is Patterson thought his Toast nickname was because he was great. He was saying it's because of the big plays he made and was "the Toast of the East Coast". That's not why Parcells gave him that name, as we all know, because he kept getting burned.
Welch was a backup pressed into duty and he (and Patterson) were fortunate that in the 1986 playoffs, you could argue that the level of play of the Giants front 7 was as dominant as any defense in history. Yes, you read that correctly. Late in the shutout of Washington in the NFC Championship, John Madden made a comment to the effect "I thought the 1985 Bears defense was the best I've ever seen play and no one could play at that level. This Giants defense is as good as that Bears defense right now."
Little side note about Welch and Super Bowl XXI. 2 things have long nagged me about that Super Bowl because I wanted the score to be more reflective of how badly the Giants pounded Denver in the 2nd half.
1) Allegre missing an extra point that should have given the Giants 40 points
2) Welch allowed a late TD in garbage time to Vance Johnson when Elway wizzed a ball that literally flew right by Welch's ear hole which he should have knocked away. The final score of that Super Bowl should have been 40-13. Oh well...a good problem to have.
great minds. before i even read the thread, seeing the title only...i thought james butler lol
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great minds. before i even read the thread, seeing the title only...i thought james butler lol
I wouldn't say he was the worst of the SB teams.
The answer is Reggie Torbor. The invisible man. I remember Carl Banks and Harry Carson raving about him and I was stoked, but geez, that dude just took up space. It WOULD have been Mark Ingram, but there was this fucking insanely great play, you see...
Arguments could be made for Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson or virtually any other bastard wearing a 80's series number through the Parcells year, Bavaro being the lone exception.
A good Giants receiver was a solid C+. Lionel Manuel accidentally got 1,000+ with Simms in his prime, but fuck Lionel Manuel.
I mean just because that '86 D was great doesn't mean it can't be a player from that D. If anything the point is that that front 7 was so magnificently dominant that the Giants could have put any JAG in the secondary and they would have been fine (which is exactly what happened).
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were the first two names that leaped to mind.
But alas, Toast will always have this moment! https://youtu.be/TMgUV0I3CDA?t=283 - ( New Window )
That was my first Giants game, went with my father and brother, I was 8 years old. Eagle fans were cursing at us - and me - on the way out.
Little side note about Welch and Super Bowl XXI. 2 things have long nagged me about that Super Bowl because I wanted the score to be more reflective of how badly the Giants pounded Denver in the 2nd half.
1) Allegre missing an extra point that should have given the Giants 40 points
2) Welch allowed a late TD in garbage time to Vance Johnson when Elway wizzed a ball that literally flew right by Welch's ear hole which he should have knocked away. The final score of that Super Bowl should have been 40-13. Oh well...a good problem to have.
LOL, this has always bothered me too. Not much of course but I am a bit greedy and wanted a bigger blowout. Even just the damned extra point makes it 40-20 which sounds so much better.
I remember a Giants-Redskins game where as Hill was walking off the field after a special teams play, he casually punched a couple of Redskins on his way to the bench. He eventually got thrown out of the game.
You thought Hill was a slug? How about Bill Currier?
You're one of the few who posts this about KH, and every time I reply about the memory I have of a play at the back of the end zone where KH grabbed the WRs jersey to steer him into running into the goalpost.
In an era where there middle of the field was a kill-zone and Banks' description of the "I just made my guy quit" mentality summarized that D pretty succinctly, Hill played a role.
with Lee Rouson
I beleive he was on both of the first two Super Bowl teams.
Career 3.6 Y/A, and stayed in the league a long time. No power. Regarded as a slasher, whose real talent was sharp cutbacks into his own pulling guard....
Rouson brought a lot to the team in terms of specials and just being a jack of all trades. He wasn’t a game breaker but he could run, block and catch the ball out of the backfield. And those specials...