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Is cutting Vernon for another linebacker feasible?

Tark10 : 2/17/2019 9:27 am
Vernon is overpaid relative to his performance. The Vikings have limited cap space this year and will be unable to resign Anthony Barr. This guy is a very good linebacker who would excel in a 3-4 defense. I'm not sure what his asking price would be but the Giants may want to test the waters here. Also, if Vernon is cut, what dead money would still be on the books?
8 million dead cap hit I believe  
Earl the goat : 2/17/2019 9:35 am : link
I’d cut him in a heartbeat and not cause I don’t think he can’t be productive but he has proven time and time he cant stay on the field
No way.  
90.Cal : 2/17/2019 9:37 am : link
OV is better. Barr can not rush the passer, at all. He maybe a better "Linebacker" but we need someone to rush the passer and without OV we have no real pass rushing threat... I dont think Barr has ever recorded a 5 sack season. Pass. Hard pass. Need pass rushers. Now Clowney or Dee Ford... maybe.
I'm not sold on Barr as a target, but I wouldn't keep Vernon at his  
yatqb : 2/17/2019 9:42 am : link
current salary. If we can't trade him and he won't reduce his salary I'd cut him if it allowed us to sign someone more useful to the team (e.g., a RT) and live with the cap hit cutting him would entail.
---  
Peppers : 2/17/2019 9:46 am : link
There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.
RE: ---  
GeoMan999 : 2/17/2019 9:51 am : link
In comment 14298711 Peppers said:
Quote:
There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.
RE: ---  
GeoMan999 : 2/17/2019 9:53 am : link
No trade market unfortunately or they would have done it already. He is way overpaid and his injury history scares people away. The JPP situation was different.

In comment 14298711 Peppers said:
Quote:
There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.
...  
christian : 2/17/2019 9:54 am : link
Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.

In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.

If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.

Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
RE: ---  
yatqb : 2/17/2019 9:55 am : link
In comment 14298711 Peppers said:
Quote:
There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.


I'm not sure it would be easy to trade him given his $15M salary for the 2019 season. If we could get a team to take him off our hands, I can't imagine landing a 3rd for him. Perhaps a 5th or 6th?

It's not that he's a bad player. He's just a very expensive one.
Still just 28..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/17/2019 9:56 am : link
No injury problems to speak of before coming here. None of what he incurred would be deemed chronic..

I’d keep him. He can still be more than viable, imv
RE: Still just 28..  
mfsd : 2/17/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14298722 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
No injury problems to speak of before coming here. None of what he incurred would be deemed chronic..

I’d keep him. He can still be more than viable, imv


Agreed. He hasn’t been able to be the past rusher we hoped him to be, but right now he’s the only pass rusher we have. Giants desperately need one or two more, but cutting him only makes a glaring weakness worse.

.  
arcarsenal : 2/17/2019 10:07 am : link
I wouldn't mind hanging onto him one more year, and then cutting bait in 2020 when the dead money halves and the cap savings increase by about ~4M.

If there's a good trade offer, I'd explore that as well - but trading him does still add more dead cap - either 8M for the upcoming season if he's dealt pre-6/1 or it gets split in half between this year and next if it's post.

The cap savings remain consistent, however - same as it'd be if he were released.
I predict  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/17/2019 10:15 am : link
that OV stays another year whilst half of bbi pisses and moans about him being "overpaid".
RE: ...  
SHO'NUFF : 2/17/2019 10:18 am : link
In comment 14298717 christian said:
Quote:
Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.

In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.

If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.

Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.


You're kidding, right? Vernon did nothing but get penalties and negative yards in a couple of games. Most of those stats were either in garbage time or clustered against backup QBs. He never showed up when it mattered most.
Lets just get rid of everyone  
Beer Man : 2/17/2019 10:26 am : link
Cut Eli, cut Vernon, cut Jack Rabbit, trade OBJ, etc... This team has so many holes to fill as it is, and for many the solution is to make even more holes. Between the dead money and what you pay for replacements, there will no cap saving, and the team will be no better off; and in some areas the team will probably be worse off.
Our perception of value is skewed  
George from PA : 2/17/2019 10:26 am : link
With cap going up.....

Value of position of edge rusher....

Scarcity of edge rusher in fa....

I would not be so quick to say is grossly over paid.


I suspect Clowney will break bank....


RE: 8 million dead cap hit I believe  
eric2425ny : 2/17/2019 10:33 am : link
In comment 14298702 Earl the goat said:
Quote:
I’d cut him in a heartbeat and not cause I don’t think he can’t be productive but he has proven time and time he cant stay on the field


This, really good player when healthy, but some guys just can’t stay on the field.
Forget the dead money  
Mike in Boston : 2/17/2019 10:38 am : link
The correct question is can the Giants get someone who will help more than Vernon for his cap savings. Who knows at this point, when we have no idea who will even hit the FA market, never mind at what price, but I'd be skeptical. And a late round pick we might get for OV is pretty close to worthless. A pick in the 4th round or later is no more than a 10% chance of getting a good player.

And frustration that a guy has been injured is irrelevant to a personnel decision, unless you think that the injuries are either a result of his style of play or a physical weakness is a particular part, which doesn't seem to be the case with Vernon. Football players get hurt with some frequency; you have to live with that.
The Edge Rusher market is insane this year.  
mittenedman : 2/17/2019 10:40 am : link
Clowney, Dee Ford, Frank Clark, Brandon Graham, Dante Fowler, Jr., Trey Flowers, Ezekiel Ansah. Clay Matthews & Terrell Suggs.

And then the top of the draft is loaded with Josh Allen, Ferrell, Sweat, Jochai Polite & Brian Burns.

This will hurt OV's market value but also make it "easier" to replace him if they want to move on.
RE: ...  
Ssanders9816 : 2/17/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14298717 christian said:
Quote:
Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.

In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.

If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.

Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.


He’s really not if you actually watched the games. And the Eagles have little cap space, the Foles situation pending and pash rush is not a huge need for them. So no, that’s not happening.
RE: Forget the dead money  
robbieballs2003 : 2/17/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14298758 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
The correct question is can the Giants get someone who will help more than Vernon for his cap savings. Who knows at this point, when we have no idea who will even hit the FA market, never mind at what price, but I'd be skeptical. And a late round pick we might get for OV is pretty close to worthless. A pick in the 4th round or later is no more than a 10% chance of getting a good player.

And frustration that a guy has been injured is irrelevant to a personnel decision, unless you think that the injuries are either a result of his style of play or a physical weakness is a particular part, which doesn't seem to be the case with Vernon. Football players get hurt with some frequency; you have to live with that.


Correct. Dead money sucks but it shouldn't be how a player is viewed. If releasing Vernon gave us 4 million in dead money but only saved us 1 million then you keep him because finding a player like him for 1 mil isn't happening. But if his dead money was 14 million but he saved us 11 million then the question is about finding a better player for 11 mil. It really comes down to the cap savings not the dead money.
.  
rasbutant : 2/17/2019 10:45 am : link
It’s an 11+ mil savings so in theory you have that much to find his replacement.

You probably are not getting as good a player for 11 mil. But He would also be off the books for the next year so that is a benefit.

Its a hard choice a specially not knowing what other players will be available and how much they will cost. I was never a fan of the signing in the first place so I’m probably more on the side of cutting him. But it does make a huge need even bigger.
The clue to keeping Vernon healthy  
joeinpa : 2/17/2019 10:47 am : link
Is to trade him. Pretty sure that would work.
This is an interesting..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/17/2019 10:53 am : link
take:

Quote:
You're kidding, right? Vernon did nothing but get penalties and negative yards in a couple of games. Most of those stats were either in garbage time or clustered against backup QBs. He never showed up when it mattered most


Because the penalties were more clustered than anything else.

His 7 sacks were spread out over 4 games and he had a fumble recovery in a game with no sacks and a forced fumble in a game with one sack.

Meanwhile, he committed 5 penalties and 3 of them were against TB, and two of them were neutral zone infractions. He committed a 4th quarter penalty against Tennessee when the Giants were already down by 2 TD's and he committed a penalty in the 1st quarter against Philly while the game was tied.

The penalties seem more clustered or irrelevant to the outcome than his sacks and impact plays.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/17/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14298737 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
In comment 14298717 christian said:


Quote:


Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.

In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.

If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.

Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.



You're kidding, right? Vernon did nothing but get penalties and negative yards in a couple of games. Most of those stats were either in garbage time or clustered against backup QBs. He never showed up when it mattered most.


Lol mattered most? The Giants haven't had a game that mattered "most" since 2016.

Production doesn't count less against back up QBs. Vernon had back-to-back big games when the Giants had fleeting hopes of getting into the playoffs, doesn't matter who the QB was.

as a couple others said  
fkap : 2/17/2019 11:52 am : link
it depends on what you can get for the 11.5 mil cap savings by cutting him.

If you view him as in JAG territory, you can get someone for less.


If you consider him better than JAG, in the decent-good realm, you're probably not replacing him for equal, or less.


A consideration I have no idea the answer to is his locker room presence. Is he a leader, a distraction, or just another cog on the sprocket?


roll with him one more year, draft his replacement.
Cut him  
Earl the goat : 2/17/2019 12:02 pm : link
Go with Moss and McIntosh
And save the 11 million
Chances are he won’t play in 8-10 games
RE: as a couple others said  
Rjanyg : 2/17/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14298783 fkap said:
Quote:
it depends on what you can get for the 11.5 mil cap savings by cutting him.

If you view him as in JAG territory, you can get someone for less.


If you consider him better than JAG, in the decent-good realm, you're probably not replacing him for equal, or less.


A consideration I have no idea the answer to is his locker room presence. Is he a leader, a distraction, or just another cog on the sprocket?


roll with him one more year, draft his replacement.


If OV were to be cut he would need to be replaced and I think 2 FA candidates are Z’ Darius Smith from Baltimore and Aaron Lynch from Chicago could be nice young replacements. Both are 26 years old and excel at pass rushing. I know Lynch played on a 1 year deal in Chicago for $4 Million last year. Fangio loves him and might try to bring him to Denver. Smith is a big dude with bend. He is an up and coming ER that could be had for a lesser deal than OV.

I’d addd one of these guys and another in the draft.
There could be a trade market for OV  
WillVAB : 2/17/2019 1:19 pm : link
There’s some teams with a ton of cap space (see Colts, Jets, and Bills). If some of the big names don’t hit the market or teams w space strike out on the big names, there may be some interest.

The Colts have 100 mil in space, need two 4-3 DE’s, and aren’t in a draft spot to land one of the top ER’s in the draft.
Last year he was playing very well throughout the preseason  
TMS : 2/17/2019 1:33 pm : link
adapting to the new defense, then he gets injured so maybe he comes back strong this year. He is one of of our better defenders who creates a pass rush when healthy. They are hard to come by. Think we take the chance especially if we take a QB at #6. If we take a ER or DL then no. DG knows our situation and keeping the faith he does the right thing.
RE: RE: ---  
Peppers : 2/17/2019 1:40 pm : link
In comment 14298716 GeoMan999 said:
Quote:
No trade market unfortunately or they would have done it already. He is way overpaid and his injury history scares people away. The JPP situation was different.

In comment 14298711 Peppers said:


Quote:


There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.



Moving on from both JPP and Vernon wasn't feasible last offseason. Moving Vernon is now. IF NYG keeps Vernon, he counts 19.5 against the cap for each of the remaining two years. 2019 is the first year where moving on from the previous regimes mistake is practical for Gettleman. He started it last offseason, continued it during the season, and he's expected to stay the course this offseason. Also, Vernon's "injury history" is grossly overstated.

Would love to hear how the JPP situation was different..

There's a trade market for a 28 year old EDGE.
as TMS stated  
GiantGrit : 2/17/2019 1:41 pm : link
all reports were he was dominant on the field before the fucking high ankle sprain. What a shame. Hope he gets another year here and figures it out.
Be careful about killing any player based on games played (injuries)  
djm : 2/17/2019 2:09 pm : link
And this tired narrative that the giants are just stupid for signing “injury prone” players. Every single player is a gamble. They ALL get hurt. Most get injured. Not every player is Lawrence Taylor or Ronnie Lott.

JJ Watt missed 13 games in 2016
JJ Watt missed 11 games in 2017

Justin Houston missed 5 games in 2015.
Justin Houston missed 11 games in 2016.
Since then he’s missed a total of 5 games the last two years. Should the chiefs have cut bait back in 2016? Was he an overpaid bum? Chiefs kept him and reaped the rewards the last two seasons as Houston has given the chiefs good play.

Demarcus Lawrence missed 7 games in 2016 and was largely out of 6 more. Fortunately for Dallas he’s been healthy the last 2 seasons. They are praying this continues.

Oliver Vernon missed NO games from 2012-2016 and yes that includes the 2016 season where he was the best front 7 player on the best nyg defense this decade. Funny how so many here either ignore or forget that. Vernon missed 4 games in 2017 and five in 2018.

If you cut Vernon  
djm : 2/17/2019 2:12 pm : link
Yes you save money, but you’re still paying a lot of dead money AND you have created another void on this defense. Even if you adequately replaced him with a lower priced fa vet, unlikely, you still need more talent on this defense.

Missed games is the wrong metric for Vernon  
RobCarpenter : 2/17/2019 2:25 pm : link
When he plays injured he’s invisible.

I’d take a seventh for Vernon at this point. Time to move on from him.
keep Vernon  
bc4life : 2/17/2019 3:50 pm : link
negotiate the price, if possible.
RE: Missed games is the wrong metric for Vernon  
djm : 2/17/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14298843 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
When he plays injured he’s invisible.

I’d take a seventh for Vernon at this point. Time to move on from him.


That’s just not true. He wasn’t invisible over the 11 games he did play this season. The pro bowl is a joke but you still get there based on production. Vernon produced.

Eh keep him  
TommyWiseau : 2/17/2019 5:08 pm : link
For this year, hope he gets healthy.
If we cut Olivier Vernon...  
Big_Pete : 2/18/2019 7:14 am : link
I would target these two signings (and estimated contracts:

OLB Brandon Graham, Eagles
3 year, $25.5m, $12.75m gtd
• 2019: $10m
• 2020: $7.5m
• 2021: $8m


OLB Alex Okafor, Saints, 30
2 year, $5.5m, $2.95m gtd
• 2019: $2.75m
• 2020: $2.75m


Okafor played under Bettcher in Arizona and Graham played under our new OLB coach Mike Dawson with the Eagles
I think keeping Vernon is a better option  
Rjanyg : 2/18/2019 10:55 am : link
providing we can re-sign Collin, Jamon Brown and a Right Tackle. I think Gettlemen will try to sign another younger OLB like Okafor or Aaron Lynch with the idea of having depth and options in case of injuries. I would also expect them to add another OLB in the mid rounds.

Any signing this year will be with the future in mind. Next year I can see Vernon and Jenkins gone, along with the idea that Eli will be off the books....this would mean the ability to sign players this year.

The best laid plan is to go into the draft with as little need as possible to stay with the BPA approach.

I think NYG can sign Collins, Brown a RT and OLB prior to the draft without cutting anybody. This will allow DG to get Haskins, a free safety , more depth for the OL and DL.
Not too sure about this guy...  
trueblueinpw : 2/18/2019 12:06 pm : link
He just doesn’t seem like a play maker. Even if his games missed to injury are over stated in that he’s been on the field more than we think, his production, or lack there of, is often attributed to playing with an injury. I think this explains why so many of us think of him as injury prone.

Is OV is a difference maker? What’s his signature game as a Giant or a game or a series that he took over and dominated? Does he even draw double teams on a regular basis? Surely there’s a few times he’s been a force for the Giants defense, but I can’t really remember. Maybe it’s just me, but is it fair to say OVs production has been JAGish since he’s been a Giant?
I recall  
uther99 : 2/18/2019 12:31 pm : link
4th and 15 against Dallas where OV completely gives up outside contain on Dak, who rolls out and throws a TD. nuff said
Of course OV can be cut  
.McL. : 2/18/2019 3:26 pm : link
and of course you can replace him with another LB.

Upside: some cap space is freed up. Most importantly, he would be completely off the books in 2020, if its done before June 1st.

Downside: The Giants already have an anemic pass rush with him, and he is just about the only guy on the team capable of putting consistent pressure on the QB. What is this team going to do for a pass rush without him? Also there is the additional dead cap money.

My Opinion: The Giants aren't winning anything of significance in 2019 anyway, so what's the point of having him... He only plays about half the games a year anyway! Cut him, take the hit, set yourself up for a big 2020 offseason.
Why would you worry about "dead money?"  
3putt : 2/19/2019 12:32 am : link
I always root for the team to get a reasonable k with a player. If it helps our cap, then as a fan, that's a good thing.

But if an owner is willing to cut or trade a player and incur dead money, as a fan, why should we care? It doesn't count against the cap.

I know some fans are very pro player in contract negotiations. I don't agree, but I understand their position. But if an owner is willing to take the hit and pay the dead money, what is the downside for fans of a team.
RE: ...  
djstat : 2/19/2019 12:33 am : link
In comment 14298717 christian said:
Quote:
Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.

In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.

If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.

Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
sack stats got inflated in week 17.
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