Vernon is overpaid relative to his performance. The Vikings have limited cap space this year and will be unable to resign Anthony Barr. This guy is a very good linebacker who would excel in a 3-4 defense. I'm not sure what his asking price would be but the Giants may want to test the waters here. Also, if Vernon is cut, what dead money would still be on the books?
In comment 14298711 Peppers said:
In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.
If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.
Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
I'm not sure it would be easy to trade him given his $15M salary for the 2019 season. If we could get a team to take him off our hands, I can't imagine landing a 3rd for him. Perhaps a 5th or 6th?
It's not that he's a bad player. He's just a very expensive one.
I’d keep him. He can still be more than viable, imv
I’d keep him. He can still be more than viable, imv
Agreed. He hasn’t been able to be the past rusher we hoped him to be, but right now he’s the only pass rusher we have. Giants desperately need one or two more, but cutting him only makes a glaring weakness worse.
If there's a good trade offer, I'd explore that as well - but trading him does still add more dead cap - either 8M for the upcoming season if he's dealt pre-6/1 or it gets split in half between this year and next if it's post.
The cap savings remain consistent, however - same as it'd be if he were released.
In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.
If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.
Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
You're kidding, right? Vernon did nothing but get penalties and negative yards in a couple of games. Most of those stats were either in garbage time or clustered against backup QBs. He never showed up when it mattered most.
Value of position of edge rusher....
Scarcity of edge rusher in fa....
I would not be so quick to say is grossly over paid.
I suspect Clowney will break bank....
This, really good player when healthy, but some guys just can’t stay on the field.
And frustration that a guy has been injured is irrelevant to a personnel decision, unless you think that the injuries are either a result of his style of play or a physical weakness is a particular part, which doesn't seem to be the case with Vernon. Football players get hurt with some frequency; you have to live with that.
And then the top of the draft is loaded with Josh Allen, Ferrell, Sweat, Jochai Polite & Brian Burns.
This will hurt OV's market value but also make it "easier" to replace him if they want to move on.
In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.
If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.
Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
He’s really not if you actually watched the games. And the Eagles have little cap space, the Foles situation pending and pash rush is not a huge need for them. So no, that’s not happening.
And frustration that a guy has been injured is irrelevant to a personnel decision, unless you think that the injuries are either a result of his style of play or a physical weakness is a particular part, which doesn't seem to be the case with Vernon. Football players get hurt with some frequency; you have to live with that.
Correct. Dead money sucks but it shouldn't be how a player is viewed. If releasing Vernon gave us 4 million in dead money but only saved us 1 million then you keep him because finding a player like him for 1 mil isn't happening. But if his dead money was 14 million but he saved us 11 million then the question is about finding a better player for 11 mil. It really comes down to the cap savings not the dead money.
You probably are not getting as good a player for 11 mil. But He would also be off the books for the next year so that is a benefit.
Its a hard choice a specially not knowing what other players will be available and how much they will cost. I was never a fan of the signing in the first place so I’m probably more on the side of cutting him. But it does make a huge need even bigger.
Because the penalties were more clustered than anything else.
His 7 sacks were spread out over 4 games and he had a fumble recovery in a game with no sacks and a forced fumble in a game with one sack.
Meanwhile, he committed 5 penalties and 3 of them were against TB, and two of them were neutral zone infractions. He committed a 4th quarter penalty against Tennessee when the Giants were already down by 2 TD's and he committed a penalty in the 1st quarter against Philly while the game was tied.
The penalties seem more clustered or irrelevant to the outcome than his sacks and impact plays.
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Vernon is very productive when he's on the field. And his injuries, though frequent haven't been major.
In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.
If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.
Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.
You're kidding, right? Vernon did nothing but get penalties and negative yards in a couple of games. Most of those stats were either in garbage time or clustered against backup QBs. He never showed up when it mattered most.
Lol mattered most? The Giants haven't had a game that mattered "most" since 2016.
Production doesn't count less against back up QBs. Vernon had back-to-back big games when the Giants had fleeting hopes of getting into the playoffs, doesn't matter who the QB was.
If you view him as in JAG territory, you can get someone for less.
If you consider him better than JAG, in the decent-good realm, you're probably not replacing him for equal, or less.
A consideration I have no idea the answer to is his locker room presence. Is he a leader, a distraction, or just another cog on the sprocket?
roll with him one more year, draft his replacement.
And save the 11 million
Chances are he won’t play in 8-10 games
If you view him as in JAG territory, you can get someone for less.
If you consider him better than JAG, in the decent-good realm, you're probably not replacing him for equal, or less.
A consideration I have no idea the answer to is his locker room presence. Is he a leader, a distraction, or just another cog on the sprocket?
roll with him one more year, draft his replacement.
If OV were to be cut he would need to be replaced and I think 2 FA candidates are Z’ Darius Smith from Baltimore and Aaron Lynch from Chicago could be nice young replacements. Both are 26 years old and excel at pass rushing. I know Lynch played on a 1 year deal in Chicago for $4 Million last year. Fangio loves him and might try to bring him to Denver. Smith is a big dude with bend. He is an up and coming ER that could be had for a lesser deal than OV.
I’d addd one of these guys and another in the draft.
The Colts have 100 mil in space, need two 4-3 DE’s, and aren’t in a draft spot to land one of the top ER’s in the draft.
In comment 14298711 Peppers said:
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There is a trade market for Vernon.. Similar to JPP last year where they would likely recoup at least a 3rd round pick.
Moving on from both JPP and Vernon wasn't feasible last offseason. Moving Vernon is now. IF NYG keeps Vernon, he counts 19.5 against the cap for each of the remaining two years. 2019 is the first year where moving on from the previous regimes mistake is practical for Gettleman. He started it last offseason, continued it during the season, and he's expected to stay the course this offseason. Also, Vernon's "injury history" is grossly overstated.
Would love to hear how the JPP situation was different..
There's a trade market for a 28 year old EDGE.
JJ Watt missed 13 games in 2016
JJ Watt missed 11 games in 2017
Justin Houston missed 5 games in 2015.
Justin Houston missed 11 games in 2016.
Since then he’s missed a total of 5 games the last two years. Should the chiefs have cut bait back in 2016? Was he an overpaid bum? Chiefs kept him and reaped the rewards the last two seasons as Houston has given the chiefs good play.
Demarcus Lawrence missed 7 games in 2016 and was largely out of 6 more. Fortunately for Dallas he’s been healthy the last 2 seasons. They are praying this continues.
Oliver Vernon missed NO games from 2012-2016 and yes that includes the 2016 season where he was the best front 7 player on the best nyg defense this decade. Funny how so many here either ignore or forget that. Vernon missed 4 games in 2017 and five in 2018.
I’d take a seventh for Vernon at this point. Time to move on from him.
I’d take a seventh for Vernon at this point. Time to move on from him.
That’s just not true. He wasn’t invisible over the 11 games he did play this season. The pro bowl is a joke but you still get there based on production. Vernon produced.
OLB Brandon Graham, Eagles
3 year, $25.5m, $12.75m gtd
• 2019: $10m
• 2020: $7.5m
• 2021: $8m
OLB Alex Okafor, Saints, 30
2 year, $5.5m, $2.95m gtd
• 2019: $2.75m
• 2020: $2.75m
Okafor played under Bettcher in Arizona and Graham played under our new OLB coach Mike Dawson with the Eagles
Any signing this year will be with the future in mind. Next year I can see Vernon and Jenkins gone, along with the idea that Eli will be off the books....this would mean the ability to sign players this year.
The best laid plan is to go into the draft with as little need as possible to stay with the BPA approach.
I think NYG can sign Collins, Brown a RT and OLB prior to the draft without cutting anybody. This will allow DG to get Haskins, a free safety , more depth for the OL and DL.
Is OV is a difference maker? What’s his signature game as a Giant or a game or a series that he took over and dominated? Does he even draw double teams on a regular basis? Surely there’s a few times he’s been a force for the Giants defense, but I can’t really remember. Maybe it’s just me, but is it fair to say OVs production has been JAGish since he’s been a Giant?
Upside: some cap space is freed up. Most importantly, he would be completely off the books in 2020, if its done before June 1st.
Downside: The Giants already have an anemic pass rush with him, and he is just about the only guy on the team capable of putting consistent pressure on the QB. What is this team going to do for a pass rush without him? Also there is the additional dead cap money.
My Opinion: The Giants aren't winning anything of significance in 2019 anyway, so what's the point of having him... He only plays about half the games a year anyway! Cut him, take the hit, set yourself up for a big 2020 offseason.
But if an owner is willing to cut or trade a player and incur dead money, as a fan, why should we care? It doesn't count against the cap.
I know some fans are very pro player in contract negotiations. I don't agree, but I understand their position. But if an owner is willing to take the hit and pay the dead money, what is the downside for fans of a team.
In 11 games he had 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 21 QB hits, and he was clearly hobbled.
If, and big if of course, he gets 16 healthy games, he's going to put up the dynamite season Reese was projecting.
Recent Giants luck, it'll be as an Eagle.