and the people who have written him off are wrong. This video captures my views on this issue better than I can write them up.
Apologies if this video has already been posted. I think it's important. Eli has been the victim of a shitty O-line for years, along with a shitty running game, a decimated receiving corps in 2017, and a shitty D every year in recent memory except 2016.
He had one of the highest completion percentages in downfield passes in the league in 2018, along with stats at or near career bests in completion rate, total yards and INTs.
He can still play, and this video demonstrates the point.
Link - (
New Window )
If the Giant score 35 PPG and lose the majority of them, I am ok with the offense.
That's not good offense.
They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.
And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys.
Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.
Quote:
wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs.
That's not good offense.
They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.
And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys.
Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.
This makes no sense. They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them. They benched Elliott, Martin, and Smith on offense and we STILL couldnt stop them.
So where should the main problem lie?
At this point in his career, he is one of the worst QBs in the league under pressure.
Additionally, as defenses are getting better as disguising their coverages pre-snap, he is struggling with processing things post snap. He has been great at making reads pre-snap, but that's becoming less of a useful skill.
Behind an excellent offensive line and with a solid defense, Eli can still win a superbowl, but so can a lot of QBs in this league under those circumstances.
If you got him perfect protection and he never had to take any hits can he make throws to receivers? Yes.
Does his serious lack of desire to avoid hits and his not ever good but declining mobility make the circumstances that he needs pretty impossible from a team building standpoint? Especially at his salary?
If we could have Eli at the vet minimum is it possible we could build a SB team around him? I think maybe.
I think the vet minimum is a lot closer to his real value than his salary as well. Sooooooo, basically yeah it's time for him to take a massive pay cut or retire. Those are the only ways he could be on a team with a chance to win it all now.
Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.
Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.
This is a very good point.
Nearly all the top teams in the league either have an elite QB or a QB on a rookie contract. Eli doesn't fit either of those groups.
It isn't spite. It's the opinion that an organizational policy of sound cap management translates to a better team on the field. The Giants are 19th in the NFL in cap space...so while they aren't in "cap hell" they are at a disadvantage compared to most teams. And that is despite having a poor roster with little talent or depth AND not getting elite play out of the quarterback position.
So what does that tell you? They are spending money terribly. Eli's 2019 cap number is the most obvious (though not only) example of that.
As of right now the following 6 players represent 55% of the Giants' 2019 salary cap:
Eli: $23M
Beckham: $21M
Vernon: $19.5M
Solder: $17M
Jenkins: $14.75M
Ogeltree: $11.75M
Now I don't know about you, but I look at that and see a 5 alarm fire. The cap matters. A lot.
Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.
But I'm pretty confident that I nailed the money motivation ins commenters.
Quote:
wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs.
That's not good offense.
They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.
And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys.
Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.
They left there starters in the whole game...me thinks they cared
The only justifications for placing it on the backburner are if a) You're close enough to contending to sink every available resource into winning next year b) A replacement isn't there. The 2nd option may be a possibility but you should be exhausting every angle before making that determination because the clock is ticking. I'd put us in desperation mode next offseason.
But I'm pretty confident that I nailed the money motivation ins commenters.
Do you not understand that moving on at QB isn't just about this year? By freeing up $17M through cutting Eli we could sign a player or players that may preclude us from doing something stupid two or three years from now.
Solid cap management has to be a policy. It's a pipeline that has to be maintained as the impacts of poor cap management ripple out over several years.
We suffered in 2018 because of the idiotic JPP contract. That was $15M in dead money that could have been used any number of ways. In 2019 it will be dead money for the Vernon contract. The same applies with Eli. He hasn't been worth what he's getting paid, and combined with all of these other bad contracts the result has been a team that has been unwatchably bad for years.
You seriously don't see the connection?
They're not against the cap, but they're certainly not well below it - not to the point where $20M wouldn't make a significant difference.
Until a better option is on the horizon, keeping Eli, even at his current salary, is the sane course.
Eli at his current salary, or even extended a year, is not going to prevent us from improving via FA. typical backloaded FA contracts will be escalating just when Eli's cap hit will be coming off the books.
IF you can get the QB of the future through the draft, or from the second/third string of another team (yeah, that works out all the time!) then jettison Eli. But if that doesn't look to be the case, then stay with Eli for another year.
To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't.
Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential.
To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't.
Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential.
Couldn't agree more.
You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status.
And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.
Quote:
thing ignores an important point. If we are going to be bad we might as well bottom out, we should draft another QB to compete with Lauletta and bring in a veteran at a fraction of the salary. Using that much cap space on someone not part of the teams future when people universally agree this team is not competing this year, I really don't understand. Do we really want Eli winning us a few more games against backup QBs next year? Taking us from 3-13 to 5-11?
To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't.
Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential.
Couldn't agree more.
You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status.
And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.
This team rarely plays the misdirection game. Last year it was pretty obvious if you know who the plugged in beats are that the Giants were going non QB and most likely Barkely (if he didnt go #1)
Some of those same plugged in guys are saying QB and likely early in the draft. I would be very suprised if that doesnt happen at this point.
And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.
Similarly in spring of 2018, after the epic debacle in 2017 and Eli being 37, with a rare top 2 pick, and given one of the strongest QB class in many many years, there were multiple statements here in BBI that "I have no problem with picking a QB ....... but if the management isn't absolutely convinced the QB being a franchise/championship guy, then let's pick some other position."
I think a lot of them were really HOPING the management wasn't convinced by any QB draftees, and drafting any other position, even a defensive player, would of course help the incumbent QB.
Quote:
You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status.
And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.
Similarly in spring of 2018, after the epic debacle in 2017 and Eli being 37, with a rare top 2 pick, and given one of the strongest QB class in many many years, there were multiple statements here in BBI that "I have no problem with picking a QB ....... but if the management isn't absolutely convinced the QB being a franchise/championship guy, then let's pick some other position."
I think a lot of them were really HOPING the management wasn't convinced by any QB draftees, and drafting any other position, even a defensive player, would of course help the incumbent QB.
There is no rare generational freak talent like Barkley at the top of this draft. And Haskins and even Lock may be determined to have franchise QB potential. I have no problem with either at 6 or a trade for Rosen if Cards go Murray #1
We've been sucking with Eli. We've gone 8-24 the last two seasons, and he started all but one of those games.
It pains me to say it because Eli is my favorite Giant ever, but it's over. It's obvious to everyone outside of the organization, but for some reason (likely nostalgia) the front office and many fans insist that the situation is something other than it is.
We're going to go with Eli again at QB in 2019, and we're likely going to have a losing record again in part because of that.
Quote:
is to suck this year and base our moves on ensuring that we do? I guess that means sitting out FA. No sense in improving the team and endangering the L totals.
We've been sucking with Eli. We've gone 8-24 the last two seasons, and he started all but one of those games.
It pains me to say it because Eli is my favorite Giant ever, but it's over. It's obvious to everyone outside of the organization, but for some reason (likely nostalgia) the front office and many fans insist that the situation is something other than it is.
We're going to go with Eli again at QB in 2019, and we're likely going to have a losing record again in part because of that.
Until a better option is on the horizon, keeping Eli, even at his current salary, is the sane course.
Eli at his current salary, or even extended a year, is not going to prevent us from improving via FA. typical backloaded FA contracts will be escalating just when Eli's cap hit will be coming off the books.
IF you can get the QB of the future through the draft, or from the second/third string of another team (yeah, that works out all the time!) then jettison Eli. But if that doesn't look to be the case, then stay with Eli for another year.
Agreed.
That's just so reductive. Eli had one of his best years statistically in 2018. He played well enough to win a bunch of games, despite having a shit show of an O-line for -- at minimum -- the first half of the season and a terrible D the entire year.
That D gave up 412 points -- putting it in the conversation as one of the worst defenses in the league -- and simply could not stop anyone in 4th quarters. And as bad as they were early on in the season, they got substantially worse as the season wore on. They lost their last two games by one point each simply because the D couldn't stop anybody at the end of the game. None of that is Eli's fault.
But in the second half of the season the offense scored 27 or more points in 6 out of 8 games. Credit for that should go to Eli... and yet doesn't.
That's just so reductive. Eli had one of his best years statistically in 2018. He played well enough to win a bunch of games, despite having a shit show of an O-line for -- at minimum -- the first half of the season and a terrible D the entire year.
That D gave up 412 points -- putting it in the conversation as one of the worst defenses in the league -- and simply could not stop anyone in 4th quarters. And as bad as they were early on in the season, they got substantially worse as the season wore on. They lost their last two games by one point each simply because the D couldn't stop anybody at the end of the game. None of that is Eli's fault.
But in the second half of the season the offense scored 27 or more points in 6 out of 8 games. Credit for that should go to Eli... and yet doesn't.
Great points Don. I have no issue bringing in another guy to groom under him but Eli clearly still had it.
16th in points scored
25th in first downs
17th in net yards gained/pass attempt
25th in average drive length
19th in average plays/drive
15th in average yards/drive
18th in average points/drive
And that's considering the offense was far worse than those rankings in the 1-7 start.
The defense was pathetic in 2018, but so was the offense.
So the full season stats are not great, but they don't tell the full story at all.
But looking at Eli's full season stats, he threw for a 66% completion rate... tied with Patrick Mahomes, who is apparently anointed to be the NFL's next great QB. He threw for 4299 yards, 9th in the league. He threw 21 TDs -- very low by Eli's typical standards, but still tied with Matt Stafford and just one fewer than Dak Prescott. His yards per attempt were 7.5 -- nothing spectacular, but comparable to Roethlisberger and Brady (7.6). He threw only 11 picks -- the same as Brady, and fewer than such stars as Mahomes (12), Andrew Luck (15) and Roethlisberger (16).
And he did it all with one of the worst offensive lines I have ever seen. Simply stated, Eli is playing pretty well. It's the team around him that sucks.
how many? which ones? would we have made the playoffs if everybody didn’t let Eli down? how far would we have gone last year? Could he ever have gotten us bigger leads with that high level of play? is he playing better as he gets older? Is another 2011 season just around the corner? he seems to make a lot of money so shouldn’t he generally always play at a high level? when he doesn’t play at a high level should we just look the other way and say “oh well...”? Is the best way to manage the roster to continue to pay him the most? should we invest only in defense at this point in his career? Should we ignore Eli’s age and assume he plays only like the games you see him play well? Do we really ever need to consider a longer term view at QB or just keep playing with next year in mind?
just a few questions off the top of my head...
The point is to invest in players who are part of your medium-term plans.
Don’t know how serious the football guys here take it, but it seems to diminish the narrative that most of the Giants woes revolve around Eli s supporting cast.
Eli can be an effective QB provided he is well protected. He is also in decline. What was true of last year may or may not be true next year. What bothers me most is when we see poor decision making for a guy who's played as long as he has.
Eli will be the QB next year. But the number one question for the franchise is who is the QB of the future. Despite the love of the Saquan pick around here, there are many football people of the strong belief the Giants made a big mistake not taking their QB when they had their chance. Do they grow desperate and grab one this year? Do they defer it yet again and who knows if they will have any shot at a good one next year?
From a franchise standpoint, the debate for if Eli can play at a high level is meaningless. Whether we admit it or not, Eli is essentially a caretaker / bridge to get us to the next guy.
That game was winnable if they run the clock down on their final possessions.
They didn't. They were winning that game if they simply possess the ball.
Quote:
They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them.
That game was winnable if they run the clock down on their final possessions.
They didn't. They were winning that game if they simply possess the ball.
Well is that personnel problems or coaching?
To recap the next to last drive: 3:09 left on the clock
- pass to Simonson for 9 yards to the 9 yard line. We can agree thats an ideal first play.
- Holding on Chad Wheeler negating a first down. Now its 2nd and 11.
- Barkley for 0 yards
- Barkely for -2 yards
I am not disagreeing that the offense could have put it away themselves. But you have a major mistake by a guy who shouldnt be playing. That was probably the ball game in itself. Throw in Shurmur going conservative with two runs on long down and distance - and the drive is over without a chance.
I am not advocating that Eli needs to be the QB. But I do truly believe that if we upgrade at RT and C, the offense can be a top 10 offense regardless of who is behind center. We got Barkely and OBJ speaheading the offense. Engram really plyed well to end the year. If SS can just move the chains.... this can be a good offense.
I dont think we need a major overhaul. But we absolutely need a better RT and center.