Eli can still play at a high level

...

Haven't seen you for ages!

and I think he will also be capable next year but its also time to groom his successor.

In comment 14299967 Stan in LA said:

Quote:

Haven't seen you for ages!

I still lurk, and post once in a while, but my message board jousting days are more or less over.

Nonetheless.

We can't do this every year, guys.

We have to find his replacement. Like... now.

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with.

They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

when the Giants need to draft his successor.

The Giants led by Eli over the past 15 seasons have won a play off game in two of those seasons. Let's grant your point that it is/was not Eli's fault, but the fault of all those you named.

He is 38 years old, his skills are not what they were in 11, and this Giants team does not appear to be a serious contender for the coming season.

Question for me is if the Giants finally build a team around Eli, and they certainly have tried very hard to do that, in your words, "Will Eli still be able to "play" at age 39 and 40?

I love Eli, have always been a big fan. But there is a level of objectivity that seems to be missing where Eli is concerned, in many corners.

being a winning NFL QB than down the field passing stats.
This whole team needs an overhaul...and by the time it is complete Eli will need a walker...thankfully people will still say he can play IF....

In comment 14299985 JonC said:

Quote:

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

This is the truth. Only a few here decline to slide the bar to the extreme. But all the giants' decisions are going to be made using this exact pov. You can book that.

But can he do it with enough consistency to make it into the playoffs?

Then be able to play at a high level for 3 or 4 games in a row?

of that YouTube narrator is contagious.

Features a ton historical context and not much of the way a thorough analysis of Eli's actual play in 2018, especially relative to his peers and in particular the high-water mark counting stats that don't carry a ton of weight in today's NFL.

In comment 14299972 Pan-handler said:

Quote:

and I think he will also be capable next year but its also time to groom his successor.

Agreed on both points

But he's all a point in his career where he needs a lot of help. He doesn't have the skills to overcome deficiencies anymore. This Eli would have absolutely gonen down to the ground on 3rd and 5. This Eli won't lead the team to the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl, with the 32nd ranked rushing attack and 27th ranked defense (25th in scoring).

And is it absolutely time to groom a successor.

In comment 14299985 JonC said:

Quote:

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"!

He can play well in spurts but he's inconsistent and will make mistakes independent of the OL and players around him. I do agree that his physical decline is overstated, although it is there, but the problem is that it's compounded by other factors. He's easily flustered and when he gets cold, he's COLD, which results in our offense going dormant for long stretches. He's probably the least mobile QB in the league and doesn't have anything in his arsenal to combat the pass rush. His footwork and mechanics go to shit way too easily. He's not great in the short passing game and awful in the screen game. He doesn't give you anything to neutralize the rush.

Is he a starting QB? Sure. He's not "done". But it really depends on what your expectations are in a starter. He's not a good starter and the arrow is pointing down. It's sometimes that simple and more important than squeezing every ounce of good play out of the guy when you're objectively a bad team.

In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said:

Quote:

In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"!

Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer.

I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability.

There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few.

Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder.

Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv.

Let's go!

Eli could have great success this season but it is definitely time to find his successor. This is the last year of his contract and now is the time to find someone to learn behind him for a year before taking over the reigns.

In comment 14300043 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"! Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer. I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability. There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few. Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder. Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv.

I think with SB and OBJ as the centerpiece of an offense, we don't need a blue chip QB. If you build the line so SB is more effective (or even more) that makes any QB much more effective even is he is not the "great" QB. So I would try to get a B prospect QB, build the OL, focus thr offense on SB.

It no longer matters what Eli can do today. He's not under contract after this season. The more important question is what his prospects are for the next 2-4 years.

than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points.

Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

well enough to not panic regarding the QB position. In an ideal world we should draft his successor, and groom him to replace Eli next year. Whether a QB worth drafting is there is a whole other issue. If there's a franchise potential at 6, go for it. Don't waste a 2nd round pick on flier material.

If a QB isn't on the horizon this year, don't panic. Go with Eli and make plans for next year.

We can be a team worth watching with Eli at the helm. I think everyone knows it's time to look for his replacement. Some people want to panic during the search.

In comment 14300071 Now Mike in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14300043 JonC said: Quote: In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"! Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer. I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability. There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few. Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder. Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv. I think with SB and OBJ as the centerpiece of an offense, we don't need a blue chip QB. If you build the line so SB is more effective (or even more) that makes any QB much more effective even is he is not the "great" QB. So I would try to get a B prospect QB, build the OL, focus thr offense on SB.

I do think they will do their best to improve the OL and work towards the next window in this fashion. You can build this before in many cases before the draft will deliver you a blue chipper.

The defense needs the talent infusion even more than the offense. Go figure.

Another example how drastically teams can change year to year. A roster is never static.

In comment 14300083 Don in DC said:

Quote:

than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points. Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

Don, agreed. But with 2 years, we need a succession plan in place. Hope all is well.

In comment 14300084 fkap said:

Quote:

well enough to not panic regarding the QB position. In an ideal world we should draft his successor, and groom him to replace Eli next year. Whether a QB worth drafting is there is a whole other issue. If there's a franchise potential at 6, go for it. Don't waste a 2nd round pick on flier material. If a QB isn't on the horizon this year, don't panic. Go with Eli and make plans for next year. We can be a team worth watching with Eli at the helm. I think everyone knows it's time to look for his replacement. Some people want to panic during the search.

+1

But I do think the window closes after this year. So, they need to draft one next year that the latest. On the bright side, by forgoing a QB this year, the team is better suited to have one start right away, without the mentoring, than it would be if they drafted one this year. So, either way, they end up with a new QB in the 2020 season, but have a better team overall by waiting.

Heavily scouted Rosen last year and likely like Haskins.

Murray very likely is not in the running.

In comment 14300083 Don in DC said:

Quote:

than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points. Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

Enough of this scored more points garbage it means nothing!!! The bottom line is they were a last place team that won 5 games while the cowboys and eagles both made the playoffs. Keep living off beating back up qbs the entire second half all you want.

It's true. You can look it up.

because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team.

In comment 14300177 Don in DC said:

Quote:

because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team.

What did Eli do in the colt game with a chance with the game with a. Minute left?? He threw a pick to seal the game for the colts. Then the next week against Dallas same thing chance to win the game and threw four incompletions. Yes Eli was the problem to not to mention his bone head interception the first drive of that Dallas game

In comment 14300187 nygnyy274 said:

Quote:

In comment 14300177 Don in DC said: Quote: because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team. What did Eli do in the colt game with a chance with the game with a. Minute left?? He threw a pick to seal the game for the colts. Then the next week against Dallas same thing chance to win the game and threw four incompletions. Yes Eli was the problem to not to mention his bone head interception the first drive of that Dallas game

What a dumb argument. So, with that logic, if our defense didn't suck huge greasy chunks, Andrew Luck costs Indy the game that day because he had a horrendous few plays in that game. The Indy defense was twice what ours was, with more than twice the OL as ours, and they BARELY beat the Giants that day. And how did he look against the Chiefs in the playoffs (He sucked by the way)? So should Indianapolis cut him and draft Haskins? LOL

These arguments are so beyond dumb. We clearly need a QB to take his place. But to say he sucks and is done etc. is just plain dumb.

... handing the ball off and throwing a dump off pass five yards...yeah he's great and so can every other QB and backup QB in this league and in college.

In comment 14300197 silverfox said:

Quote:

... handing the ball off and throwing a dump off pass five yards...yeah he's great and so can every other QB and backup QB in this league and in college.

Except for Kyle.

but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

In comment 14300200 bluepepper said:

Quote:

but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

I largely agree. I am not saying that we should not be making plans for his successor. Not at all. I am just sick of the "Eli sucks, this is all his fault, we have to draft Haskins NOW" line of bullshit.

In comment 14300200 bluepepper said:

Quote:

but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

Just my view, but I think we get better overall value by licking an elite defender this year as compared to a middling QB. And, that the difference between the top 2-3 QB's next year versus this year is such that I would prefer to draft quality this year and pay the ransom next year. I think that makes us overall better with more superlatives in a broader area.

wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs.

That's not good offense.

They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

You'r esaying the offense wasnt good the last two games? Because of converting more than 50% on 3rd down? Odd standard.

The last 8 games they nearly averaged 29 PPG which included a goose egg in a downpour. The offense was very good to end the year.

was moreso cause they gave up 75 yards in less than 90 seconds and let the Cowboys convert a 4th and 15 from the 32 yard line.

If the Giant score 35 PPG and lose the majority of them, I am ok with the offense.

that the D couldn't get off the field and the O-line, though improved after the bye, was still subpar at best.

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys.
Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.

In comment 14300237 .McL. said:

Quote:

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution. And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys. Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.

This makes no sense. They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them. They benched Elliott, Martin, and Smith on offense and we STILL couldnt stop them.

So where should the main problem lie?

As long as he is very well protected and he's facing a vanilla defense.

At this point in his career, he is one of the worst QBs in the league under pressure.

Additionally, as defenses are getting better as disguising their coverages pre-snap, he is struggling with processing things post snap. He has been great at making reads pre-snap, but that's becoming less of a useful skill.

Behind an excellent offensive line and with a solid defense, Eli can still win a superbowl, but so can a lot of QBs in this league under those circumstances.

could still play at a high level in the same sense that Dan Marino could still play at a high level.

If you got him perfect protection and he never had to take any hits can he make throws to receivers? Yes.

Does his serious lack of desire to avoid hits and his not ever good but declining mobility make the circumstances that he needs pretty impossible from a team building standpoint? Especially at his salary?

If we could have Eli at the vet minimum is it possible we could build a SB team around him? I think maybe.

I think the vet minimum is a lot closer to his real value than his salary as well. Sooooooo, basically yeah it's time for him to take a massive pay cut or retire. Those are the only ways he could be on a team with a chance to win it all now.

that only works if his present salary was hamstringing them from improving the team. There is no evidence that that is the case.

For 12% of our cap I'd be hoping for "IS playing at an elite level".

Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.

that his contract hampers them from improving, I think all the commentary about salary vs talent arises more from spite than anything else. Which may be predictable but is still, IMO, odd.

In comment 14300248 Go Terps said:

Quote:

For 12% of our cap I'd be hoping for "IS playing at an elite level". Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.

This is a very good point.

Nearly all the top teams in the league either have an elite QB or a QB on a rookie contract. Eli doesn't fit either of those groups.

In comment 14300250 Bill L said:

Quote:

that his contract hampers them from improving, I think all the commentary about salary vs talent arises more from spite than anything else. Which may be predictable but is still, IMO, odd.

It isn't spite. It's the opinion that an organizational policy of sound cap management translates to a better team on the field. The Giants are 19th in the NFL in cap space...so while they aren't in "cap hell" they are at a disadvantage compared to most teams. And that is despite having a poor roster with little talent or depth AND not getting elite play out of the quarterback position.

So what does that tell you? They are spending money terribly. Eli's 2019 cap number is the most obvious (though not only) example of that.

there's no proof that that is happening.

It's incredible to me that there are still posters that don't see the relationship between the salary cap and the team on the field. If you are paying a player elite money you have to be getting elite production back.

As of right now the following 6 players represent 55% of the Giants' 2019 salary cap:

Eli: $23M
Beckham: $21M
Vernon: $19.5M
Solder: $17M
Jenkins: $14.75M
Ogeltree: $11.75M

Now I don't know about you, but I look at that and see a 5 alarm fire. The cap matters. A lot.

In comment 14300248 Go Terps said:

Quote:

For 12% of our cap I'd be hoping for "IS playing at an elite level". Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.

Solid post. I watch him play and think he is bottom 25% of the league at this point and he is clearly declining.. That opinion makes me a complete moron to some here. I am OK with that, considering the source. Sure, I have seen some good throws that remind me of what he once was, it just doesn't happen with the consistency we need. Sure, in a perfect situation he can still do it but we are not that team. The more depressing thing that I am coming to terms with is that it doesn't matter who starts in 2019 and I think we all know that. It is why we fight. The Cowboys and Eagles look better right now and their futures look brighter than ours. It is a shitty pill.

that they would have but for lack of funds? Not counting people that the put a value on and would not go over whether they could or not.

or even is playing at a "high level".

But I'm pretty confident that I nailed the money motivation ins commenters.

In comment 14300237 .McL. said:

Quote:

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution. And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys. Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.

They left there starters in the whole game...me thinks they cared

Has to do with Eli? I continually see it brought up as an excuse. Because our defense stunk out loud in the 2nd half we shouldn't address the most important position on the field? He's 38, playing like a replacement level starter and only has a year left on his deal. That alone makes it your #1 need regardless of how the rest of the team plays.

The only justifications for placing it on the backburner are if a) You're close enough to contending to sink every available resource into winning next year b) A replacement isn't there. The 2nd option may be a possibility but you should be exhausting every angle before making that determination because the clock is ticking. I'd put us in desperation mode next offseason.

In comment 14300271 Bill L said:

Quote:

or even is playing at a "high level". But I'm pretty confident that I nailed the money motivation ins commenters.

Do you not understand that moving on at QB isn't just about this year? By freeing up $17M through cutting Eli we could sign a player or players that may preclude us from doing something stupid two or three years from now.

Solid cap management has to be a policy. It's a pipeline that has to be maintained as the impacts of poor cap management ripple out over several years.

We suffered in 2018 because of the idiotic JPP contract. That was $15M in dead money that could have been used any number of ways. In 2019 it will be dead money for the Vernon contract. The same applies with Eli. He hasn't been worth what he's getting paid, and combined with all of these other bad contracts the result has been a team that has been unwatchably bad for years.

You seriously don't see the connection?

and 2-3 years from now isn't relevant, not just because Eli (and others) will no longer be on the books anyway, but also because they have always been able to free up money when necessary. I think that if his salary was keeping them from doing anything specific, then they would or will do something to alter the equation. They haven't done that, so we just sit here in bitterness about a player we don't like, as bystanders with no financial investment.

if they had $20M more in cap space, without them actually having had that much space?

They're not against the cap, but they're certainly not well below it - not to the point where $20M wouldn't make a significant difference.

given we really don't know half of what possibilities are lost.

Eli is overpaid relative to production. However, playing Lauletta, or some JAG QB, is not going to make the team better. Reaching for a draft QB is not going to make the team better. That's panic.

Until a better option is on the horizon, keeping Eli, even at his current salary, is the sane course.

Eli at his current salary, or even extended a year, is not going to prevent us from improving via FA. typical backloaded FA contracts will be escalating just when Eli's cap hit will be coming off the books.

IF you can get the QB of the future through the draft, or from the second/third string of another team (yeah, that works out all the time!) then jettison Eli. But if that doesn't look to be the case, then stay with Eli for another year.

thing ignores an important point. If we are going to be bad we might as well bottom out, we should draft another QB to compete with Lauletta and bring in a veteran at a fraction of the salary. Using that much cap space on someone not part of the teams future when people universally agree this team is not competing this year, I really don't understand. Do we really want Eli winning us a few more games against backup QBs next year? Taking us from 3-13 to 5-11?

To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't.

Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential.

In comment 14300380 NoGainDayne said:

Quote:

thing ignores an important point. If we are going to be bad we might as well bottom out, we should draft another QB to compete with Lauletta and bring in a veteran at a fraction of the salary. Using that much cap space on someone not part of the teams future when people universally agree this team is not competing this year, I really don't understand. Do we really want Eli winning us a few more games against backup QBs next year? Taking us from 3-13 to 5-11? To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't. Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential.

Couldn't agree more.

You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status.

And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.

In comment 14300385 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14300380 NoGainDayne said: Quote: thing ignores an important point. If we are going to be bad we might as well bottom out, we should draft another QB to compete with Lauletta and bring in a veteran at a fraction of the salary. Using that much cap space on someone not part of the teams future when people universally agree this team is not competing this year, I really don't understand. Do we really want Eli winning us a few more games against backup QBs next year? Taking us from 3-13 to 5-11? To me it's as simple as this, either you think we can compete for a playoff spot and there is an argument for Eli or we can't and there isn't. Also, the cap doesn't have to be used on old players that you overpay. You can use it to lock up younger high volatility players to longer term deals that are real bargains if they reach their potential. Couldn't agree more. You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status. And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.

This team rarely plays the misdirection game. Last year it was pretty obvious if you know who the plugged in beats are that the Giants were going non QB and most likely Barkely (if he didnt go #1)

Some of those same plugged in guys are saying QB and likely early in the draft. I would be very suprised if that doesnt happen at this point.

To pay someone 23 million to be a mentor to that first round pick. C’mon he isn’t even in Jonathan Stewart’s class as a mentor and we got his mentoring for 20M less.

In comment 14300385 bw in dc said:

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You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status. And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too.

Similarly in spring of 2018, after the epic debacle in 2017 and Eli being 37, with a rare top 2 pick, and given one of the strongest QB class in many many years, there were multiple statements here in BBI that "I have no problem with picking a QB ....... but if the management isn't absolutely convinced the QB being a franchise/championship guy, then let's pick some other position."

I think a lot of them were really HOPING the management wasn't convinced by any QB draftees, and drafting any other position, even a defensive player, would of course help the incumbent QB.

In comment 14300407 LAXin said:

Quote:

In comment 14300385 bw in dc said: Quote: You don't have to dig too far to get underneath what's going on here - there are fans who just want to see Eli keep playing. And they are willing to sacrifice another season in the hopes of: (1) another magical playoff run despite the long, lottery-type odds, or (2) Eli can get one more good year under his belt to further improve his HoF status. And based on recent history, you can't help but think Jints Central is still choosing sentimentality over rationality, too. Similarly in spring of 2018, after the epic debacle in 2017 and Eli being 37, with a rare top 2 pick, and given one of the strongest QB class in many many years, there were multiple statements here in BBI that "I have no problem with picking a QB ....... but if the management isn't absolutely convinced the QB being a franchise/championship guy, then let's pick some other position." I think a lot of them were really HOPING the management wasn't convinced by any QB draftees, and drafting any other position, even a defensive player, would of course help the incumbent QB.

There is no rare generational freak talent like Barkley at the top of this draft. And Haskins and even Lock may be determined to have franchise QB potential. I have no problem with either at 6 or a trade for Rosen if Cards go Murray #1

is to suck this year and base our moves on ensuring that we do? I guess that means sitting out FA. No sense in improving the team and endangering the L totals.

In comment 14300428 fkap said:

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is to suck this year and base our moves on ensuring that we do? I guess that means sitting out FA. No sense in improving the team and endangering the L totals.

We've been sucking with Eli. We've gone 8-24 the last two seasons, and he started all but one of those games.

It pains me to say it because Eli is my favorite Giant ever, but it's over. It's obvious to everyone outside of the organization, but for some reason (likely nostalgia) the front office and many fans insist that the situation is something other than it is.

We're going to go with Eli again at QB in 2019, and we're likely going to have a losing record again in part because of that.

In comment 14300436 Go Terps said:

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In comment 14300428 fkap said: Quote: is to suck this year and base our moves on ensuring that we do? I guess that means sitting out FA. No sense in improving the team and endangering the L totals. We've been sucking with Eli. We've gone 8-24 the last two seasons, and he started all but one of those games. It pains me to say it because Eli is my favorite Giant ever, but it's over. It's obvious to everyone outside of the organization, but for some reason (likely nostalgia) the front office and many fans insist that the situation is something other than it is. We're going to go with Eli again at QB in 2019, and we're likely going to have a losing record again in part because of that.

Disagree (and not because of bw’s bs assertion that counter arguments are all because people pine for Eli. We will (or will not) suck this year because of ancillary pieces. There’s no alternative to Eli that will make the team better, although there are some that will make us worse. If you consider Eli to be a poor choice, then that’s fine. However, he would still be the best of bad options. We are playing for getting the pieces in line for 2020 and beyond and always have been. The question is whether or not it’s better to wean in an okay Qb picked st #6 under Eli’s tutelage, or improve the team elsewhere and then throw in a much better QB picked high next year (my preference).

In comment 14300321 fkap said:

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Eli is overpaid relative to production. However, playing Lauletta, or some JAG QB, is not going to make the team better. Reaching for a draft QB is not going to make the team better. That's panic. Until a better option is on the horizon, keeping Eli, even at his current salary, is the sane course. Eli at his current salary, or even extended a year, is not going to prevent us from improving via FA. typical backloaded FA contracts will be escalating just when Eli's cap hit will be coming off the books. IF you can get the QB of the future through the draft, or from the second/third string of another team (yeah, that works out all the time!) then jettison Eli. But if that doesn't look to be the case, then stay with Eli for another year.

Agreed.

that because the team has been losing that means Eli is bad.

That's just so reductive. Eli had one of his best years statistically in 2018. He played well enough to win a bunch of games, despite having a shit show of an O-line for -- at minimum -- the first half of the season and a terrible D the entire year.

That D gave up 412 points -- putting it in the conversation as one of the worst defenses in the league -- and simply could not stop anyone in 4th quarters. And as bad as they were early on in the season, they got substantially worse as the season wore on. They lost their last two games by one point each simply because the D couldn't stop anybody at the end of the game. None of that is Eli's fault.

But in the second half of the season the offense scored 27 or more points in 6 out of 8 games. Credit for that should go to Eli... and yet doesn't.

That defense is irrelevant.

In comment 14300449 Don in DC said:

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that because the team has been losing that means Eli is bad. That's just so reductive. Eli had one of his best years statistically in 2018. He played well enough to win a bunch of games, despite having a shit show of an O-line for -- at minimum -- the first half of the season and a terrible D the entire year. That D gave up 412 points -- putting it in the conversation as one of the worst defenses in the league -- and simply could not stop anyone in 4th quarters. And as bad as they were early on in the season, they got substantially worse as the season wore on. They lost their last two games by one point each simply because the D couldn't stop anybody at the end of the game. None of that is Eli's fault. But in the second half of the season the offense scored 27 or more points in 6 out of 8 games. Credit for that should go to Eli... and yet doesn't.

Great points Don. I have no issue bringing in another guy to groom under him but Eli clearly still had it.

.

I don't know where this notion comes from that the Giants' offense was any good in 2018.

16th in points scored
25th in first downs
17th in net yards gained/pass attempt
25th in average drive length
19th in average plays/drive
15th in average yards/drive
18th in average points/drive

And that's considering the offense was far worse than those rankings in the 1-7 start.

The defense was pathetic in 2018, but so was the offense.

because the offensive line was one of the worst that I have ever seen. After the bye and the personnel shifts the O-line was less horrific, and the offense played well down the stretch.

So the full season stats are not great, but they don't tell the full story at all.

But looking at Eli's full season stats, he threw for a 66% completion rate... tied with Patrick Mahomes, who is apparently anointed to be the NFL's next great QB. He threw for 4299 yards, 9th in the league. He threw 21 TDs -- very low by Eli's typical standards, but still tied with Matt Stafford and just one fewer than Dak Prescott. His yards per attempt were 7.5 -- nothing spectacular, but comparable to Roethlisberger and Brady (7.6). He threw only 11 picks -- the same as Brady, and fewer than such stars as Mahomes (12), Andrew Luck (15) and Roethlisberger (16).

And he did it all with one of the worst offensive lines I have ever seen. Simply stated, Eli is playing pretty well. It's the team around him that sucks.

Well isn’t that special...

how many? which ones? would we have made the playoffs if everybody didn’t let Eli down? how far would we have gone last year? Could he ever have gotten us bigger leads with that high level of play? is he playing better as he gets older? Is another 2011 season just around the corner? he seems to make a lot of money so shouldn’t he generally always play at a high level? when he doesn’t play at a high level should we just look the other way and say “oh well...”? Is the best way to manage the roster to continue to pay him the most? should we invest only in defense at this point in his career? Should we ignore Eli’s age and assume he plays only like the games you see him play well? Do we really ever need to consider a longer term view at QB or just keep playing with next year in mind?

just a few questions off the top of my head...

That’s like a straw species.

Factors in offensive line and skill talent play and isolates the value added or reduced by the QB on every play as well as adjusting for garbage time stats. Eli was 25th in the league among the 32 starters. So no ,the Giants poor performance is not all on the line and the defense. It was also due to below average QB play.

it's a problem. It's been going on a lot recently for the Giants.

if you think next year is going to be anything other than a 17 week debate over whether to start the new guy, youre fooling yourself

In comment 14300428 fkap said:

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is to suck this year and base our moves on ensuring that we do? I guess that means sitting out FA. No sense in improving the team and endangering the L totals.

The point is to invest in players who are part of your medium-term plans.

Wow that is a stat I wasn’t aware of.

Don’t know how serious the football guys here take it, but it seems to diminish the narrative that most of the Giants woes revolve around Eli s supporting cast.

To evaluate OLs, surrounding casts, and the ins and outs of football? It would be smarter to get your hair cut by a one armed blind man.

And they took a spike last year after adding Saquan. Yes, the Oline is bad. They also made major investments in the Oline and is a team with some serious offensive firepower. The argument is if they fix the Oline, Eli will put up elite numbers? Okay, so we are saying just give Eli a strong Oline and surround him with generational talent and he'll be an elite performer.

Eli can be an effective QB provided he is well protected. He is also in decline. What was true of last year may or may not be true next year. What bothers me most is when we see poor decision making for a guy who's played as long as he has.

Eli will be the QB next year. But the number one question for the franchise is who is the QB of the future. Despite the love of the Saquan pick around here, there are many football people of the strong belief the Giants made a big mistake not taking their QB when they had their chance. Do they grow desperate and grab one this year? Do they defer it yet again and who knows if they will have any shot at a good one next year?

From a franchise standpoint, the debate for if Eli can play at a high level is meaningless. Whether we admit it or not, Eli is essentially a caretaker / bridge to get us to the next guy.

In comment 14300238 dep026 said:

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They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them.

That game was winnable if they run the clock down on their final possessions.

They didn't. They were winning that game if they simply possess the ball.

In comment 14300600 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 14300238 dep026 said: Quote: They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them. That game was winnable if they run the clock down on their final possessions. They didn't. They were winning that game if they simply possess the ball.

Well is that personnel problems or coaching?

To recap the next to last drive: 3:09 left on the clock

- pass to Simonson for 9 yards to the 9 yard line. We can agree thats an ideal first play.
- Holding on Chad Wheeler negating a first down. Now its 2nd and 11.
- Barkley for 0 yards
- Barkely for -2 yards

I am not disagreeing that the offense could have put it away themselves. But you have a major mistake by a guy who shouldnt be playing. That was probably the ball game in itself. Throw in Shurmur going conservative with two runs on long down and distance - and the drive is over without a chance.

I am not advocating that Eli needs to be the QB. But I do truly believe that if we upgrade at RT and C, the offense can be a top 10 offense regardless of who is behind center. We got Barkely and OBJ speaheading the offense. Engram really plyed well to end the year. If SS can just move the chains.... this can be a good offense.

I dont think we need a major overhaul. But we absolutely need a better RT and center.