Eli can still play at a high level

...

Haven't seen you for ages!

and I think he will also be capable next year but its also time to groom his successor.

In comment 14299967 Stan in LA said:

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Haven't seen you for ages!

I still lurk, and post once in a while, but my message board jousting days are more or less over.

Nonetheless.

We can't do this every year, guys.

We have to find his replacement. Like... now.

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with.

They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

when the Giants need to draft his successor.

The Giants led by Eli over the past 15 seasons have won a play off game in two of those seasons. Let's grant your point that it is/was not Eli's fault, but the fault of all those you named.

He is 38 years old, his skills are not what they were in 11, and this Giants team does not appear to be a serious contender for the coming season.

Question for me is if the Giants finally build a team around Eli, and they certainly have tried very hard to do that, in your words, "Will Eli still be able to "play" at age 39 and 40?

I love Eli, have always been a big fan. But there is a level of objectivity that seems to be missing where Eli is concerned, in many corners.

being a winning NFL QB than down the field passing stats.
This whole team needs an overhaul...and by the time it is complete Eli will need a walker...thankfully people will still say he can play IF....

In comment 14299985 JonC said:

Quote:

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

This is the truth. Only a few here decline to slide the bar to the extreme. But all the giants' decisions are going to be made using this exact pov. You can book that.

But can he do it with enough consistency to make it into the playoffs?

Then be able to play at a high level for 3 or 4 games in a row?

of that YouTube narrator is contagious.

Features a ton historical context and not much of the way a thorough analysis of Eli's actual play in 2018, especially relative to his peers and in particular the high-water mark counting stats that don't carry a ton of weight in today's NFL.

In comment 14299972 Pan-handler said:

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and I think he will also be capable next year but its also time to groom his successor.

Agreed on both points

But he's all a point in his career where he needs a lot of help. He doesn't have the skills to overcome deficiencies anymore. This Eli would have absolutely gonen down to the ground on 3rd and 5. This Eli won't lead the team to the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl, with the 32nd ranked rushing attack and 27th ranked defense (25th in scoring).

And is it absolutely time to groom a successor.

In comment 14299985 JonC said:

Quote:

but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer.

Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"!

He can play well in spurts but he's inconsistent and will make mistakes independent of the OL and players around him. I do agree that his physical decline is overstated, although it is there, but the problem is that it's compounded by other factors. He's easily flustered and when he gets cold, he's COLD, which results in our offense going dormant for long stretches. He's probably the least mobile QB in the league and doesn't have anything in his arsenal to combat the pass rush. His footwork and mechanics go to shit way too easily. He's not great in the short passing game and awful in the screen game. He doesn't give you anything to neutralize the rush.

Is he a starting QB? Sure. He's not "done". But it really depends on what your expectations are in a starter. He's not a good starter and the arrow is pointing down. It's sometimes that simple and more important than squeezing every ounce of good play out of the guy when you're objectively a bad team.

In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said:

Quote:

In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"!

Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer.

I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability.

There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few.

Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder.

Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv.

Let's go!

Eli could have great success this season but it is definitely time to find his successor. This is the last year of his contract and now is the time to find someone to learn behind him for a year before taking over the reigns.

In comment 14300043 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"! Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer. I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability. There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few. Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder. Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv.

I think with SB and OBJ as the centerpiece of an offense, we don't need a blue chip QB. If you build the line so SB is more effective (or even more) that makes any QB much more effective even is he is not the "great" QB. So I would try to get a B prospect QB, build the OL, focus thr offense on SB.

It no longer matters what Eli can do today. He's not under contract after this season. The more important question is what his prospects are for the next 2-4 years.

than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points.

Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

well enough to not panic regarding the QB position. In an ideal world we should draft his successor, and groom him to replace Eli next year. Whether a QB worth drafting is there is a whole other issue. If there's a franchise potential at 6, go for it. Don't waste a 2nd round pick on flier material.

If a QB isn't on the horizon this year, don't panic. Go with Eli and make plans for next year.

We can be a team worth watching with Eli at the helm. I think everyone knows it's time to look for his replacement. Some people want to panic during the search.

In comment 14300071 Now Mike in MD said:

Quote:

In comment 14300043 JonC said: Quote: In comment 14300034 Leg of Theismann said: Quote: In comment 14299985 JonC said: Quote: but he's also in decline, that has been obvious as well. If they still believe they're a potential contender with Eli, that I wouldn't agree with. They need to get his successor in the pipeline sooner than later, otherwise, there will be increasing pain and zero confidence in the front office. And no, I don't think QB at #6 is the answer. Jon, where does the successor come from then you think? I personally love Kyler Murray, but understand why most people do not want to take that chance and why DG probably won't go that direction. I feel Haskins or Lock would be a forced pick at #6 and would simply be a desperate move to make up for not getting a QB last year (not regretting Barkley one iota of course but clearly NYG missed a chance to possibly get Eli's successor at #2 in a strong QB class). But where is the answer then? Do you think it's FA, a trade, or in 2020, or even 2021? Although 2021 Isn't exactly "sooner than later"! Without a blue chipper available at #6 (not unlike a year ago when they deemed the prospects not worthy ... and let's face it, those prospects slipped a bit in the eyes of most of the NFL draft gurus by draft time, tho many here refuse to acknowledge it), it remains the key question the franchise has to answer. I don't know the answer, but I do think there's a significant chance they will rely on Shurmur's QB accumen to develop one before they reach at the top of the draft. The picks are simply too important to roll the dice on even moreso than the nature of the draft already imposes on teams. You've got a 50/50 shot on a QB up there, you've got to believe in the young man's long term viability. There's a few good prospects that could be under consideration in the second round, for example. Not sexy picks, but QBs that could grade out similar to Lock : Stidham, Grier, Finley to name a few. Wonder if they take a shot at Kyle Shurmur as a late rounder. Reality is, the blue chip QB is getting harder to find via the draft. There just isn't as many year to year, imv. I think with SB and OBJ as the centerpiece of an offense, we don't need a blue chip QB. If you build the line so SB is more effective (or even more) that makes any QB much more effective even is he is not the "great" QB. So I would try to get a B prospect QB, build the OL, focus thr offense on SB.

I do think they will do their best to improve the OL and work towards the next window in this fashion. You can build this before in many cases before the draft will deliver you a blue chipper.

The defense needs the talent infusion even more than the offense. Go figure.

Another example how drastically teams can change year to year. A roster is never static.

In comment 14300083 Don in DC said:

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than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points. Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

Don, agreed. But with 2 years, we need a succession plan in place. Hope all is well.

In comment 14300084 fkap said:

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well enough to not panic regarding the QB position. In an ideal world we should draft his successor, and groom him to replace Eli next year. Whether a QB worth drafting is there is a whole other issue. If there's a franchise potential at 6, go for it. Don't waste a 2nd round pick on flier material. If a QB isn't on the horizon this year, don't panic. Go with Eli and make plans for next year. We can be a team worth watching with Eli at the helm. I think everyone knows it's time to look for his replacement. Some people want to panic during the search.

+1

But I do think the window closes after this year. So, they need to draft one next year that the latest. On the bright side, by forgoing a QB this year, the team is better suited to have one start right away, without the mentoring, than it would be if they drafted one this year. So, either way, they end up with a new QB in the 2020 season, but have a better team overall by waiting.

Heavily scouted Rosen last year and likely like Haskins.

Murray very likely is not in the running.

In comment 14300083 Don in DC said:

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than any other team in the NFC East last year. In the second half, the offense looked quite good, actually. This proved that, given even a halfway decent offensive line, Eli can still put up the points. Should we be looking to the future? Sure. But I think Eli still has at least 2 years of playing at a winning level left in the tank.

Enough of this scored more points garbage it means nothing!!! The bottom line is they were a last place team that won 5 games while the cowboys and eagles both made the playoffs. Keep living off beating back up qbs the entire second half all you want.

It's true. You can look it up.

because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team.

In comment 14300177 Don in DC said:

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because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team.

What did Eli do in the colt game with a chance with the game with a. Minute left?? He threw a pick to seal the game for the colts. Then the next week against Dallas same thing chance to win the game and threw four incompletions. Yes Eli was the problem to not to mention his bone head interception the first drive of that Dallas game

In comment 14300187 nygnyy274 said:

Quote:

In comment 14300177 Don in DC said: Quote: because of a terrible D and a shitty O-line. Eli was not the problem. It's infantile to blame him for the faults of the whole team. What did Eli do in the colt game with a chance with the game with a. Minute left?? He threw a pick to seal the game for the colts. Then the next week against Dallas same thing chance to win the game and threw four incompletions. Yes Eli was the problem to not to mention his bone head interception the first drive of that Dallas game

What a dumb argument. So, with that logic, if our defense didn't suck huge greasy chunks, Andrew Luck costs Indy the game that day because he had a horrendous few plays in that game. The Indy defense was twice what ours was, with more than twice the OL as ours, and they BARELY beat the Giants that day. And how did he look against the Chiefs in the playoffs (He sucked by the way)? So should Indianapolis cut him and draft Haskins? LOL

These arguments are so beyond dumb. We clearly need a QB to take his place. But to say he sucks and is done etc. is just plain dumb.

... handing the ball off and throwing a dump off pass five yards...yeah he's great and so can every other QB and backup QB in this league and in college.

In comment 14300197 silverfox said:

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... handing the ball off and throwing a dump off pass five yards...yeah he's great and so can every other QB and backup QB in this league and in college.

Except for Kyle.

but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

In comment 14300200 bluepepper said:

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but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

I largely agree. I am not saying that we should not be making plans for his successor. Not at all. I am just sick of the "Eli sucks, this is all his fault, we have to draft Haskins NOW" line of bullshit.

In comment 14300200 bluepepper said:

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but it's not about how Eli played the last few years. It's about the fact that he's 38 and his play could fall off a cliff at any moment and we are once again in prime draft position to snag a QB without giving up a king's ransom. Maybe no QB is worth it, I'm no draft guru, but remember next year if we go just 7-9 we'd be picking 13-14th at best and we'll either have to settle for the 4th or 5th best QB in that draft or give up a boatload of pics to move up.

Just my view, but I think we get better overall value by licking an elite defender this year as compared to a middling QB. And, that the difference between the top 2-3 QB's next year versus this year is such that I would prefer to draft quality this year and pay the ransom next year. I think that makes us overall better with more superlatives in a broader area.

wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs.

That's not good offense.

They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

You'r esaying the offense wasnt good the last two games? Because of converting more than 50% on 3rd down? Odd standard.

The last 8 games they nearly averaged 29 PPG which included a goose egg in a downpour. The offense was very good to end the year.

was moreso cause they gave up 75 yards in less than 90 seconds and let the Cowboys convert a 4th and 15 from the 32 yard line.

If the Giant score 35 PPG and lose the majority of them, I am ok with the offense.

that the D couldn't get off the field and the O-line, though improved after the bye, was still subpar at best.

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution.

And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys.
Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.

In comment 14300237 .McL. said:

Quote:

In comment 14300224 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: wanted to be anyplace on planet earth rather than that game, and then went on a 3 game losing streak to end the season, including 1 0-point shutout at home, and two one-point losses by which they were a combined 14 for 27 on third downs. That's not good offense. They lost the cowboys game because their last two drives were 4 play :26 second junk possessions of failure of offensive execution. And lets add that the last game held no meaning for the playoff bound cowboys. Any loss to a team that couldn't care less about the game is not good.

This makes no sense. They played everyone on their defense and we went right through them. They benched Elliott, Martin, and Smith on offense and we STILL couldnt stop them.

So where should the main problem lie?

As long as he is very well protected and he's facing a vanilla defense.

At this point in his career, he is one of the worst QBs in the league under pressure.

Additionally, as defenses are getting better as disguising their coverages pre-snap, he is struggling with processing things post snap. He has been great at making reads pre-snap, but that's becoming less of a useful skill.

Behind an excellent offensive line and with a solid defense, Eli can still win a superbowl, but so can a lot of QBs in this league under those circumstances.

could still play at a high level in the same sense that Dan Marino could still play at a high level.

If you got him perfect protection and he never had to take any hits can he make throws to receivers? Yes.

Does his serious lack of desire to avoid hits and his not ever good but declining mobility make the circumstances that he needs pretty impossible from a team building standpoint? Especially at his salary?

If we could have Eli at the vet minimum is it possible we could build a SB team around him? I think maybe.

I think the vet minimum is a lot closer to his real value than his salary as well. Sooooooo, basically yeah it's time for him to take a massive pay cut or retire. Those are the only ways he could be on a team with a chance to win it all now.

that only works if his present salary was hamstringing them from improving the team. There is no evidence that that is the case.

For 12% of our cap I'd be hoping for "IS playing at an elite level".

Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.

that his contract hampers them from improving, I think all the commentary about salary vs talent arises more from spite than anything else. Which may be predictable but is still, IMO, odd.

In comment 14300248 Go Terps said:

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For 12% of our cap I'd be hoping for "IS playing at an elite level". Is Eli playing at an elite level? If he isn't, then keeping him as the QB is the worst of several possible options at the position.

This is a very good point.

Nearly all the top teams in the league either have an elite QB or a QB on a rookie contract. Eli doesn't fit either of those groups.