I think he’s a solid player, but not the ballhawk game changer type at FS. I’d like him back at a good price, but clearly he’s going to demand a huge salary. Just seems like we could spend the $$ somewhere else.
Imagine how much better he would be if we already had a great free safety.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
Imagine how much better he would be if we already had a great free safety.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
This exactly. He was out of position and asked to do things that didn’t align to his strengths last year.
i for the life of me dont understand why people dont want him back. "you dont run from talent" the dude like it or not is one of the best SS in the game. people cry because he couldnt cover( iwas one of those) but when we sit and actually think logically, he was out of his position taken from what he does best. there arent many better run stopping SS in football. I for one, want him back and want to draft a FS to put next to him
and also get a true FS in free agency. I'm thinking Tre Boston. The Cardinals' pass defense was underrated last year and Boston will not break the bank. He's also still young (only 26). LC playing alongside a true FS will really help him return to his 2016-level production IMO.
i for the life of me dont understand why people dont want him back. "you dont run from talent" the dude like it or not is one of the best SS in the game. people cry because he couldnt cover( iwas one of those) but when we sit and actually think logically, he was out of his position taken from what he does best. there arent many better run stopping SS in football. I for one, want him back and want to draft a FS to put next to him
For me it’s not that he’s not a good player, he’s very good actually. It’s thst he’s not a big game changer type which is what he will command in salary. The game is still won or lost in the trenches so to me that’s where they should spend the cash.
i for the life of me dont understand why people dont want him back. "you dont run from talent" the dude like it or not is one of the best SS in the game. people cry because he couldnt cover( iwas one of those) but when we sit and actually think logically, he was out of his position taken from what he does best. there arent many better run stopping SS in football. I for one, want him back and want to draft a FS to put next to him
For me it’s not that he’s not a good player, he’s very good actually. It’s thst he’s not a big game changer type which is what he will command in salary. The game is still won or lost in the trenches so to me that’s where they should spend the cash.
i disagree he isnt a game changer. the guy makes plays and is always around the ball. in terms of stopping the run, he excels. he needs to play more in the box and we need a quality FS and MLB who can cover. you add those two pieces and LC will be able to just roam and attack the ball
and also get a true FS in free agency. I'm thinking Tre Boston. The Cardinals' pass defense was underrated last year and Boston will not break the bank. He's also still young (only 26). LC playing alongside a true FS will really help him return to his 2016-level production IMO.
Collins is a fine player to have, but not the type of safety you pay franchise dollars. He’s an in the box guy with little coverage ability. In this league, you’re fine as a Kam Chancellor if paired with Earl Thomas. Collins is not, and he is constantly exposed for what he lacks. The guy is great at what he does; what he does just is not worth top 5 dollars for a safety.
Depth wise with him. They don’t have a FS worth damn. No back up SS. Jenkins is getting up there as it is. Beal is totally unproven. The reset of the CBs are questionable as well.
Not saying they should give him a insane deal but Id suggest trying to get him back somewher in the middle would be the way course. They should have re done him last year. And those saying to dump have to be reasonable. He’s going to get over paid. Just another shot sandwich left from the Great Jerry Reese
Tre Boston was drafted by Gettleman in Carolina. All the more reason I think the Giants will sign him regardless of what happens with LC. They need a true FS regardless and Boston will bring that at a reasonable price with still years left in his prime.
A lot of LC's dip in play have to do with the lower talent around him. He's a terrific in the box SS. His weakness, and every player has them, is that he isn't a great cover back.
If your argument is mostly about the financial and the timing of a rebuilding team, I get it. If you're bashing LC, you're not seeing his actual strengths on the field.
Imagine how much better he would be if we already had a great free safety.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
I was wondering the same thing. On look up, his best yr was 2016 - career numbers w/ 125 tackles, 5 picks, 13 PDs, 9TFLs, 4 sacks (also / still his current career total). Which was also Andrew Adams 1 good year, the only decent FS play in 4 LC seasons. Probably speaks to his usage, w/ a decent FS he can obviously press the LOS more...
Still it'll be tough to lose him. He's the only viable S we have atm. Tough decision assuming he wants big $. It also depends on new FAs & draftees, but still a weak position losing its only viable player isn't great
and for a strong safety, he makes a lot of tackles.... Â
and also get a true FS in free agency. I'm thinking Tre Boston. The Cardinals' pass defense was underrated last year and Boston will not break the bank. He's also still young (only 26). LC playing alongside a true FS will really help him return to his 2016-level production IMO.
Collins is a fine player to have, but not the type of safety you pay franchise dollars. He’s an in the box guy with little coverage ability. In this league, you’re fine as a Kam Chancellor if paired with Earl Thomas. Collins is not, and he is constantly exposed for what he lacks. The guy is great at what he does; what he does just is not worth top 5 dollars for a safety.
Exactly, the cap is the big issue. That contract will haunt us if we sign him to big $$. Some positions just aren’t worth paying a ton for. That’s how teams end up in cap hell.
The NFL is so different. Saying you are a free safety or strong safety doesn't mean much. Offenses can get the matchups they want. Whether Collins is deep or close to the LoS he will eventually have to cover people and he sucks at it. Also, how much did Collins play oit of position last year? Riley was always on the field deep so was Collins really out of position last year? If he isn't covering someone then he either needs to be a deep safety which he isn't or blitzing. So, that is what it comes down to. We are going to blitz him every play? He is too much of a liability in today's NFL. As I have said numerous times, he doesn't fit this team. He needs help to excel. He isn't a pkayer that elevates the play of those around him. For those reasons I am perfectly fine with letting him go.
He's underrated on this board and overrated by the national media. Which is odd because it's usually flipped.
This team needs a box safety more than most realize. Because of the aggressive front, they need guys that can make plays on the 2nd level. The Tennessee game illustrated how much he's been taken for granted against the run. The safety market has been depressed the last couple of years so even top of the market isn't outrageous. Are people really concerned about a deal that will sign him 10-11m/yr when garbage WRs are getting comparable contracts? He's better than what you can do on the open market in most cases and there's also something to be said for rewarding your own when trying to create the right culture.
It may be superstitious, but there aren't many examples I can think of where a promising young Giants player had a great season, regressed a bit, and then recovered.
I rarely see him get beat 1 on 1 in the flat. I don't know if that is enough to justify a big contract, but he definitely adds value to a poor defense at the moment.
The team currently has as many holes as Sonny Corleon after his unfortunate encounter at the toll plaza. Why are we in a rush to create 2 more by dumping the only guys on our team who are still young and not too far removed from being All Pro performers?
let him go. Beckham too. Vernon while you're at it. Might as well get rid of Shepherd and Engram too. Tomlinson? Bye. Barkley better be careful too.
I would let Collins walk and consider cutting Vernon as his production doesn’t equal his contract value, it’s a numbers game. No reason to let any of the others mentioned go as they are either terrific players or their value is in line with their performance. It’s funny because Belichick jettisons guys every year and it seems to work for them. Can’t resign everyone, not enough money in the cap.
who exactly do most of you want to see on the field? Â
you complain about Reese's drafts being inadequate and ruining the team -- and in the cases where he drafted a good player you want to get rid of that player -- seriously?
RE: who exactly do most of you want to see on the field? Â
you complain about Reese's drafts being inadequate and ruining the team -- and in the cases where he drafted a good player you want to get rid of that player -- seriously?
you complain about Reese's drafts being inadequate and ruining the team -- and in the cases where he drafted a good player you want to get rid of that player -- seriously?
I see your point here, but the lack of team depth due to Reese is exactly why we need to be careful in signing guys who are not game changers like Collins to mega deals because we have so many holes to fill.
He's underrated on this board and overrated by the national media. Which is odd because it's usually flipped.
This team needs a box safety more than most realize. Because of the aggressive front, they need guys that can make plays on the 2nd level. The Tennessee game illustrated how much he's been taken for granted against the run. The safety market has been depressed the last couple of years so even top of the market isn't outrageous. Are people really concerned about a deal that will sign him 10-11m/yr when garbage WRs are getting comparable contracts? He's better than what you can do on the open market in most cases and there's also something to be said for rewarding your own when trying to create the right culture.
Good post.
I agree with what a lot of different people are saying Â
1) Letting go of him for nothing is stupid, he has value
2) As a result of this he should really be franchised
3) I think you want at least a 3rd rounder for him
4) Ideally all safeties should be able to cover, I would prefer a safety that didn't get exploited in coverage as much as he does
5) He can be a real asset on a championship defense with a great scheme and lots of good players around him (especially a very talented FS with great coverage instincts, we had just about the opposite this year and it showed, but our GM really should have known and accounted for this)
6) The Giants aren't likely to assemble that level of talent any time soon so i'd advocate franchising him and trading him
RE: I agree with what a lot of different people are saying Â
1) Letting go of him for nothing is stupid, he has value
2) As a result of this he should really be franchised
3) I think you want at least a 3rd rounder for him
4) Ideally all safeties should be able to cover, I would prefer a safety that didn't get exploited in coverage as much as he does
5) He can be a real asset on a championship defense with a great scheme and lots of good players around him (especially a very talented FS with great coverage instincts, we had just about the opposite this year and it showed, but our GM really should have known and accounted for this)
6) The Giants aren't likely to assemble that level of talent any time soon so i'd advocate franchising him and trading him
I agree with the idea of getting value for him, but I don’t think anyone will trade us assets for him if we go the franchise tag route knowing they will have to pay him big $$ as well. This isn’t a Khalil Mack type player. A transition tag is probably more realistic. The time to trade him would really have been last season to get the most value,
Dave Te Thomas suggested that the Rams may release Mark Barron, who could then likely be signed relatively cheaply. He may be a good alternative target to Collins.
contract in FA is crazy. We see it time and time again.
I guess it depends how cohesive of a plan the Giants have (which they didn't show they did last season)
If we are confident we can set it up so we get a 3 or 4 comp pick for him that's not a terrible outcome.
But if we do plan to make some signings that will net out it might not be a bad idea to take a 4 this year. I feel like a 4 this year is as valuable as a 3 next year (at the end of the round) for sure
economics. Collins is a luxury for a team that is a contender to overpay for (like Suh on the Rams last year). We have one starting CB right now who is likely past his prime in Jenkins, an unknown in Beal, no real starting FS, and virtually no depth behind either penciled in starting CB. To pay 10-11M a year for a very good box safety with little coverage skills just seems like a bad idea. We probably need to add 2-3 “solid” FA’s in the secondary and to use our second or fourth rounder on another.
I say let him test the market; and have a gentleman's agreement that we get a chance to match it if it looks reasonable.
I’ve read Dallas could be all over Collins in FA. That might suck just a bit.
They already went down this path with Roy Williams. And he eventually got exposed as a major liability against the pass. I'd be shocked if they get fooled again...
an all-pro three years ago but not an all-pro the last two years. he will get paid like an all-pro. you see what he does this year under the tag. if he performs to his all-pro level you pay him if not you let him walk next year or trade him at the deadline this year
But only with a competent free safety along with him and at a reasonable salary to allow that to happen and other moves on defense.
Problem is Collins wants to be paid like a premier jack of all trades safety when he really is a SS only and a slight liability in pass coverage. You don’t really pay safeties like that over 10 million and against the cap.
That said if you say to just let him go you have a gaping hole at safety to address in FA still.
I say keep him, bring in a mid range FS (not the Curtis Riley bargain bin) and try and draft a solid ball hawking prospect at FS at some point this year.
that is sub par. Too much attention is paid to his ability to cover faster players in the passing game. He is there to stop the run. Remove him and this defense will play even worse.
BBI has a strange desire to remove the better players from a roster that already has more holes than we can plug in two off seasons.
is one of the better SS in the NFL. I challenge anyone to make a list of a SS who have made as much an impact on a defense since he's been in the NFL. I'd imagine the list would consist only of Pro Bowl level players...which would also lead me to franchise LC.
is a play maker, not a great position player. He would need to be used that way to justify the salary. If they are just going to line him up as a safety then don’t resign him.
is one of the better SS in the NFL. I challenge anyone to make a list of a SS who have made as much an impact on a defense since he's been in the NFL. I'd imagine the list would consist only of Pro Bowl level players...which would also lead me to franchise LC.
He is one of the better SS in the NFL. I think myself and others who have chimed in against resigning him don’t see the position as being worth what Collins is likely looking for. It’s not about the player as much for me, it’s about the impact of his position on our wins and losses. Rather see the $$ invested in solidifying the line, etc.
Some here think we should just get rid of all our best players Â
as if using their money to sign new, unproven players will make us better
Not trying to come across as a wiseass here, but take a look at the player salaries section on here and tell me it is worth it to back up the Brinks truck for Collins. We have two starter quality WR’s under contract, no Center, no Right Guard, no legitimate Right Tackle, no second Starting Cornerback, no Free Safety, and only three starting Defensive Lineman. Even our kicker and long snapper are free agents. Rosas just made the pro bowl, so his salary demands will obviously be higher. Point is, way too many holes to fill to pay Collins a huge salary. I mean we only have 6 draft picks so a lot of these spots have to be filled with FA money which we don’t have a lot of.
Is a good player with limits to his on the field game and now is on the injured player list the last two years. You pay top dollar for guys who excel and are on the field every week during the season. Does having LC on the field make or break this defense the correct answer is no. If you tag him at high dollar rate then your admitting you’ll over pay for limited talent, are we not doing enough of that already?
is a play maker, not a great position player. He would need to be used that way to justify the salary. If they are just going to line him up as a safety then don’t resign him.
That's true, but we really don't have any other "playmakers" on defense. I feel like if we can solidify the secondary with a solid "position playing" FS then Collins can focus on running around and making plays. We're 2 years removed from having the top defense in the league, I don't see why we can't try to recreate some of that magic instead of just scrapping the whole thing and starting completely from scratch.
RE: RE: Some here think we should just get rid of all our best players Â
as if using their money to sign new, unproven players will make us better
Not trying to come across as a wiseass here, but take a look at the player salaries section on here and tell me it is worth it to back up the Brinks truck for Collins. We have two starter quality WR’s under contract, no Center, no Right Guard, no legitimate Right Tackle, no second Starting Cornerback, no Free Safety, and only three starting Defensive Lineman. Even our kicker and long snapper are free agents. Rosas just made the pro bowl, so his salary demands will obviously be higher. Point is, way too many holes to fill to pay Collins a huge salary. I mean we only have 6 draft picks so a lot of these spots have to be filled with FA money which we don’t have a lot of.
We have 11 draft picks. Collins is an important player in this team. NYG has enough money to re-sign Collins, Jamon Brown, a Right Tackle and a free Safety.
Ideally you can lock up Rosas for a multi year deal but it will be a 1 year deal until next year when our cap number will be better. You guys can’t just look at our available cap number this year, you have to understand the space in 2020. Eli will be off the books most likely, there is a good chance Vernon and possibly Jenkins would be gone as well.
We need 8 starters -- why not get two starters for the price of one? And it's not like Gmen are giving up a QB, a pass rusher or an OT. Anyone thinks hes that valuable I say hogwash.
We let him go we have $28m to spend instead of $16m. With $28m and maybe a couple $m more we can get two good OL and 2 secondary starters. With $16m and a bit more you're only getting two OL. For a rebuilding team and not having to pay extreme for SS - 4 players is better than 3.
He is not half the player he thinks he is. He is arrogant and he is someone who has continually run his mouth to the press and it has caused problems in the past, like with the Eli Apple situation. The new head coach has already had to tell him to just STFU when it came to Flowers supposedly being pissed about being moved to RT.
Collins, regardless of what BBI says, is a not a good tackler. He is unreliable as far as wrapping up, bringing a guy down, or shoving the ballcarrier out of bounds. He might be a good hitter but that is a different story. His recent shoulder surgery might force him to start making a few business decisions. He might've been a valuable guy back in the old days. but with it being a passing league Collins can be replaced.
Bettcher's guy, Deone Bucannon is FA and he was actually a good fit in this defense. Notice that at 6-1 211, DB is listed as a linebacker. Collins is 6-0 222, but refuses to be used as a LB. Gettleman and the Panthers staff told him before the 2015 draft that they'd like to move him to LB and he flat out rejected the idea.
When I call him arrogant it's not only him as a person, it's how he plays. He overestimates his own hitting ability and gives little effort after the initial hit. He doesn't follow through with a solid wrap up but seems stunned when guys just keep going for more yardage after the hit.
He overestimates his own speed when he continually gets beaten after roaming (thinking he is good enough to improvise like at Alabama)(his own words last preseason) and trying to bait the QB. The worst part about his arrogance is thinking that he can play half of the field while not trusting his teammates to carry out their assignments he rushes to where he thinks the ball is going he then gets out of position and leaves his own area open.
I think he’ll have a whale of a season playing on the tag. LC is a legit NFL safety. He’ll be playing for his second season in Betchers offense and he should have some better players around him. I would tag and expect a big season from him and then lock him up either mid or next off season. His rookie season wasn’t a fluke, the man can play in the NFL. As far as the money, who cares? Tag money is market for a guy like LC and at least what the Giants would pay a UFA at the position. I’ve been saying this for a while, the tag was made for LC in this situation and using it should be the easiest task on DGs to do list.
that the Giants have not let walk in forever. Maybe this is a mistake but I am happy that a 2nd round draft choice isn't walking out the door for his 2nd contract this time.
I thought the defense held up pretty well when LC was out Â
...but he's really only had one great season and three average or below average seasons.
I was surprised at how poorly (by his standards) he played last year. Shitty arm tackles, playing out of position. 2016 was three seasons ago, let's see if he gets back to that before signing him to a big contract.
RE: We have guys wanting to trade Beckham and letting Collins walk Â
The team currently has as many holes as Sonny Corleon after his unfortunate encounter at the toll plaza. Why are we in a rush to create 2 more by dumping the only guys on our team who are still young and not too far removed from being All Pro performers?
Well put, this team did enough subtracting last year, time to start ADDING some talent!
There is a disconnect in the fanbase between what collins actually is and what fans seem to think the expectation should be.
If you put him in the best situation to succeed, he's an excellent player. What he should be is a roving, sideline to sideline defender. He's great attacking the run and can even rush the passer. He's not a coverage guy. He can cover, but if he's your best coverage safety, you didn't do a great job with your roster.
How many years has this team been failing to find a safety that has a clue about coverage?
If you focus on what he can do, he does it at a high level and he's worth keeping. The responsibility is on the team finding a free safety worth a damn.
...being used wrong?? I guess we need more new coaches, better schemes, and all pros all around for LC to reach his awesome potential. WTF??
"Yeah, don't worry about the ballcarrier, I got him. You guys just make sure to back me up and cover everyone. I got this."
Bill Belichick used to scheme to leave Lawrence Taylor free to be the LT we came to love as a player, but most of the time it was Harry Carson covering LT's ass on missing his assignment. LC is not LT. Let him take his act elsewhere because once he gets some money the NY press will have a field day giving us headaches over his stupid mouth always airing team related business.
Nobody said he needs to be surrounded with all pros Â
for people to list the UFAs that would be better than Collins. I don’t see too many obvious replacements but maybe I’m missing someone.
Michael Thomas. He is more than capable when he filled in for Collins at the end of the season. DG seems to like him. Granted he doesn't have the swagger or reputation that Collins has earned, but all isn't lost if Collins isn't brought back.
Some team will step up and overpay but it shouldn't be the Giants. We can get another veteran SS via UFA or even possibly the draft that can start.
LC is great at the line of scrimmage and with plays in front of him as he can tackle. But his coverage skills are BELOW average. You can't overpay below average pass defense in this day and age.
I think LC is a good player but not great. Pay him accordingly but no more.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
This exactly. He was out of position and asked to do things that didn’t align to his strengths last year.
For me it’s not that he’s not a good player, he’s very good actually. It’s thst he’s not a big game changer type which is what he will command in salary. The game is still won or lost in the trenches so to me that’s where they should spend the cash.
Quote:
i for the life of me dont understand why people dont want him back. "you dont run from talent" the dude like it or not is one of the best SS in the game. people cry because he couldnt cover( iwas one of those) but when we sit and actually think logically, he was out of his position taken from what he does best. there arent many better run stopping SS in football. I for one, want him back and want to draft a FS to put next to him
For me it’s not that he’s not a good player, he’s very good actually. It’s thst he’s not a big game changer type which is what he will command in salary. The game is still won or lost in the trenches so to me that’s where they should spend the cash.
i disagree he isnt a game changer. the guy makes plays and is always around the ball. in terms of stopping the run, he excels. he needs to play more in the box and we need a quality FS and MLB who can cover. you add those two pieces and LC will be able to just roam and attack the ball
Collins is a fine player to have, but not the type of safety you pay franchise dollars. He’s an in the box guy with little coverage ability. In this league, you’re fine as a Kam Chancellor if paired with Earl Thomas. Collins is not, and he is constantly exposed for what he lacks. The guy is great at what he does; what he does just is not worth top 5 dollars for a safety.
Not saying they should give him a insane deal but Id suggest trying to get him back somewher in the middle would be the way course. They should have re done him last year. And those saying to dump have to be reasonable. He’s going to get over paid. Just another shot sandwich left from the Great Jerry Reese
If your argument is mostly about the financial and the timing of a rebuilding team, I get it. If you're bashing LC, you're not seeing his actual strengths on the field.
We all know his game is best when in front of him and especially at the LOS. If we had a good free safety it would allow more opportunities for #21 to do what he does best.
I want him back but we also need to address the FS position.
I was wondering the same thing. On look up, his best yr was 2016 - career numbers w/ 125 tackles, 5 picks, 13 PDs, 9TFLs, 4 sacks (also / still his current career total). Which was also Andrew Adams 1 good year, the only decent FS play in 4 LC seasons. Probably speaks to his usage, w/ a decent FS he can obviously press the LOS more...
Still it'll be tough to lose him. He's the only viable S we have atm. Tough decision assuming he wants big $. It also depends on new FAs & draftees, but still a weak position losing its only viable player isn't great
Quote:
and also get a true FS in free agency. I'm thinking Tre Boston. The Cardinals' pass defense was underrated last year and Boston will not break the bank. He's also still young (only 26). LC playing alongside a true FS will really help him return to his 2016-level production IMO.
Collins is a fine player to have, but not the type of safety you pay franchise dollars. He’s an in the box guy with little coverage ability. In this league, you’re fine as a Kam Chancellor if paired with Earl Thomas. Collins is not, and he is constantly exposed for what he lacks. The guy is great at what he does; what he does just is not worth top 5 dollars for a safety.
Exactly, the cap is the big issue. That contract will haunt us if we sign him to big $$. Some positions just aren’t worth paying a ton for. That’s how teams end up in cap hell.
This team needs a box safety more than most realize. Because of the aggressive front, they need guys that can make plays on the 2nd level. The Tennessee game illustrated how much he's been taken for granted against the run. The safety market has been depressed the last couple of years so even top of the market isn't outrageous. Are people really concerned about a deal that will sign him 10-11m/yr when garbage WRs are getting comparable contracts? He's better than what you can do on the open market in most cases and there's also something to be said for rewarding your own when trying to create the right culture.
I would let Collins walk and consider cutting Vernon as his production doesn’t equal his contract value, it’s a numbers game. No reason to let any of the others mentioned go as they are either terrific players or their value is in line with their performance. It’s funny because Belichick jettisons guys every year and it seems to work for them. Can’t resign everyone, not enough money in the cap.
especially when they are in their prime???
I see your point here, but the lack of team depth due to Reese is exactly why we need to be careful in signing guys who are not game changers like Collins to mega deals because we have so many holes to fill.
This team needs a box safety more than most realize. Because of the aggressive front, they need guys that can make plays on the 2nd level. The Tennessee game illustrated how much he's been taken for granted against the run. The safety market has been depressed the last couple of years so even top of the market isn't outrageous. Are people really concerned about a deal that will sign him 10-11m/yr when garbage WRs are getting comparable contracts? He's better than what you can do on the open market in most cases and there's also something to be said for rewarding your own when trying to create the right culture.
Good post.
1) Letting go of him for nothing is stupid, he has value
2) As a result of this he should really be franchised
3) I think you want at least a 3rd rounder for him
4) Ideally all safeties should be able to cover, I would prefer a safety that didn't get exploited in coverage as much as he does
5) He can be a real asset on a championship defense with a great scheme and lots of good players around him (especially a very talented FS with great coverage instincts, we had just about the opposite this year and it showed, but our GM really should have known and accounted for this)
6) The Giants aren't likely to assemble that level of talent any time soon so i'd advocate franchising him and trading him
1) Letting go of him for nothing is stupid, he has value
2) As a result of this he should really be franchised
3) I think you want at least a 3rd rounder for him
4) Ideally all safeties should be able to cover, I would prefer a safety that didn't get exploited in coverage as much as he does
5) He can be a real asset on a championship defense with a great scheme and lots of good players around him (especially a very talented FS with great coverage instincts, we had just about the opposite this year and it showed, but our GM really should have known and accounted for this)
6) The Giants aren't likely to assemble that level of talent any time soon so i'd advocate franchising him and trading him
I agree with the idea of getting value for him, but I don’t think anyone will trade us assets for him if we go the franchise tag route knowing they will have to pay him big $$ as well. This isn’t a Khalil Mack type player. A transition tag is probably more realistic. The time to trade him would really have been last season to get the most value,
I say let him test the market; and have a gentleman's agreement that we get a chance to match it if it looks reasonable.
I say let him test the market; and have a gentleman's agreement that we get a chance to match it if it looks reasonable.
I’ve read Dallas could be all over Collins in FA. That might suck just a bit.
I guess it depends how cohesive of a plan the Giants have (which they didn't show they did last season)
If we are confident we can set it up so we get a 3 or 4 comp pick for him that's not a terrible outcome.
But if we do plan to make some signings that will net out it might not be a bad idea to take a 4 this year. I feel like a 4 this year is as valuable as a 3 next year (at the end of the round) for sure
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there is going to be much of a market for LC.
I say let him test the market; and have a gentleman's agreement that we get a chance to match it if it looks reasonable.
I’ve read Dallas could be all over Collins in FA. That might suck just a bit.
They already went down this path with Roy Williams. And he eventually got exposed as a major liability against the pass. I'd be shocked if they get fooled again...
To pay him big money, he cannot be a liability in the passing game. He is. He matches up poorly even against TEs and RBs.
Would prefer a more complete player at SS anyway.
LC sucks at two-thirds of all offensive plays he is paid to excel at defending.
Why would the Jints or any team in the NFL pay top dollar for someone who can't cover a TE or an RB on pass plays that dominate the game these days?
Problem is Collins wants to be paid like a premier jack of all trades safety when he really is a SS only and a slight liability in pass coverage. You don’t really pay safeties like that over 10 million and against the cap.
That said if you say to just let him go you have a gaping hole at safety to address in FA still.
I say keep him, bring in a mid range FS (not the Curtis Riley bargain bin) and try and draft a solid ball hawking prospect at FS at some point this year.
bullshit, what he hits stays hit and goes down.
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But damn! He misses a lot too...
bullshit, what he hits stays hit and goes down.
You might want to check the Carolina game again.
BBI has a strange desire to remove the better players from a roster that already has more holes than we can plug in two off seasons.
He is one of the better SS in the NFL. I think myself and others who have chimed in against resigning him don’t see the position as being worth what Collins is likely looking for. It’s not about the player as much for me, it’s about the impact of his position on our wins and losses. Rather see the $$ invested in solidifying the line, etc.
Not trying to come across as a wiseass here, but take a look at the player salaries section on here and tell me it is worth it to back up the Brinks truck for Collins. We have two starter quality WR’s under contract, no Center, no Right Guard, no legitimate Right Tackle, no second Starting Cornerback, no Free Safety, and only three starting Defensive Lineman. Even our kicker and long snapper are free agents. Rosas just made the pro bowl, so his salary demands will obviously be higher. Point is, way too many holes to fill to pay Collins a huge salary. I mean we only have 6 draft picks so a lot of these spots have to be filled with FA money which we don’t have a lot of.
He's the kind of player you break the mold for a little.
That's true, but we really don't have any other "playmakers" on defense. I feel like if we can solidify the secondary with a solid "position playing" FS then Collins can focus on running around and making plays. We're 2 years removed from having the top defense in the league, I don't see why we can't try to recreate some of that magic instead of just scrapping the whole thing and starting completely from scratch.
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as if using their money to sign new, unproven players will make us better
Not trying to come across as a wiseass here, but take a look at the player salaries section on here and tell me it is worth it to back up the Brinks truck for Collins. We have two starter quality WR’s under contract, no Center, no Right Guard, no legitimate Right Tackle, no second Starting Cornerback, no Free Safety, and only three starting Defensive Lineman. Even our kicker and long snapper are free agents. Rosas just made the pro bowl, so his salary demands will obviously be higher. Point is, way too many holes to fill to pay Collins a huge salary. I mean we only have 6 draft picks so a lot of these spots have to be filled with FA money which we don’t have a lot of.
We have 11 draft picks. Collins is an important player in this team. NYG has enough money to re-sign Collins, Jamon Brown, a Right Tackle and a free Safety.
Ideally you can lock up Rosas for a multi year deal but it will be a 1 year deal until next year when our cap number will be better. You guys can’t just look at our available cap number this year, you have to understand the space in 2020. Eli will be off the books most likely, there is a good chance Vernon and possibly Jenkins would be gone as well.
1-- QB
2--- 3 OffensivleLinmen
3-- 1 Defenisve End
4-- 2-3 Linebackers
5-- 1 FS
6- 1 CB
We need 8 starters -- why not get two starters for the price of one? And it's not like Gmen are giving up a QB, a pass rusher or an OT. Anyone thinks hes that valuable I say hogwash.
We let him go we have $28m to spend instead of $16m. With $28m and maybe a couple $m more we can get two good OL and 2 secondary starters. With $16m and a bit more you're only getting two OL. For a rebuilding team and not having to pay extreme for SS - 4 players is better than 3.
Collins, regardless of what BBI says, is a not a good tackler. He is unreliable as far as wrapping up, bringing a guy down, or shoving the ballcarrier out of bounds. He might be a good hitter but that is a different story. His recent shoulder surgery might force him to start making a few business decisions. He might've been a valuable guy back in the old days. but with it being a passing league Collins can be replaced.
Bettcher's guy, Deone Bucannon is FA and he was actually a good fit in this defense. Notice that at 6-1 211, DB is listed as a linebacker. Collins is 6-0 222, but refuses to be used as a LB. Gettleman and the Panthers staff told him before the 2015 draft that they'd like to move him to LB and he flat out rejected the idea.
He overestimates his own speed when he continually gets beaten after roaming (thinking he is good enough to improvise like at Alabama)(his own words last preseason) and trying to bait the QB. The worst part about his arrogance is thinking that he can play half of the field while not trusting his teammates to carry out their assignments he rushes to where he thinks the ball is going he then gets out of position and leaves his own area open.
I was surprised at how poorly (by his standards) he played last year. Shitty arm tackles, playing out of position. 2016 was three seasons ago, let's see if he gets back to that before signing him to a big contract.
Well put, this team did enough subtracting last year, time to start ADDING some talent!
If you put him in the best situation to succeed, he's an excellent player. What he should be is a roving, sideline to sideline defender. He's great attacking the run and can even rush the passer. He's not a coverage guy. He can cover, but if he's your best coverage safety, you didn't do a great job with your roster.
How many years has this team been failing to find a safety that has a clue about coverage?
If you focus on what he can do, he does it at a high level and he's worth keeping. The responsibility is on the team finding a free safety worth a damn.
"Yeah, don't worry about the ballcarrier, I got him. You guys just make sure to back me up and cover everyone. I got this."
Bill Belichick used to scheme to leave Lawrence Taylor free to be the LT we came to love as a player, but most of the time it was Harry Carson covering LT's ass on missing his assignment. LC is not LT. Let him take his act elsewhere because once he gets some money the NY press will have a field day giving us headaches over his stupid mouth always airing team related business.
Let's stick with your LT example. You want LT going backwards covering TEs?
Michael Thomas. He is more than capable when he filled in for Collins at the end of the season. DG seems to like him. Granted he doesn't have the swagger or reputation that Collins has earned, but all isn't lost if Collins isn't brought back.
You're missing the point. It's about redistributing the money to the trenches. His $12m you can get two safeties.
The other $16m you can get two Olinrmrn.
LC is great at the line of scrimmage and with plays in front of him as he can tackle. But his coverage skills are BELOW average. You can't overpay below average pass defense in this day and age.
I think LC is a good player but not great. Pay him accordingly but no more.