this is me paraphrasing - so if he's not a JAG he's still not a star or a player worth keeping (to many fans) on a D bereft of stars.
After the 2016 season, Collins came in 3rd in DPOY voting behind Khalil Mack and Von Miller, ahead of Aaron Donald, Sean Lee and Eric Berry.
What happened in 2017 and 2018 to make it so Collins is a guy many fans on here don't think is worth paying?
Serious question, it's one I don't have an answer to, so I was curious from those who may know.
Is it scheme? complacency? was 2016 a fluke?
In 2016 he had 125 tackles (not a great measure, but whatever) 4 sacks (and that was the only season he had evem one sack), 5 interceptions (1 TD). he was all over the place in 2016. Looked like the next Ronnie Lott after an up and down rookie year.
So, what happened?
/thread
He's a terrific in the box downhill safety. Coverage is not a strength, but I think many here point blame for failures covering TEs solely on LC, which is inaccurate.
Terrific player, worth keeping and then some. But, if you feel his style or spending elite dollars on a SS at this time doesn't fit, I can see the argument to tag and trade him.
Somebody yesterday said he misses too many tackle - WTF?.
Seems that on BBI, posters want everyone to be All Pro or they are no good. Lots of nitpick going on.
If because his supporting cast sucks means he can't be effective how do you replace him?
injuries are injuries and I don't remember him being particularly injury prone.
If that gets Collins back to 2016 season level and he's playing at a DPOY candidate level it helps the whole team.
Not sure how that works financially, but the FT is probably not the way to get it done.
If because his supporting cast sucks means he can't be effective how do you replace him?
injuries are injuries and I don't remember him being particularly injury prone.
Not really. He is a guy that needs everybody else aroumd him to be playing great for him to do his job. With that said, his coverage ability is limited. In today's NFL it is too easy for offenses to get matchups they want with personnel, formations, and motions. His weaknesses have not changed over time. When you give someone 9 to 12 mil per year he shouldn't be a guy that needs others around him to be great for him to play well. If he is getting that much miney he should be making those aroujd him better and he doesnt. In the last 4 years he has been part of a defense that been dreadful. SS is not a position you put that much money into when the rest of your defense is garbage. You'll never get back to that 2016 level. Our resources need ro be spent elsewhere imo. He will just slow down the process. And if we do fix the defense his contract will most likely have run out. I like Collins but where he is in his career and where we are on defense do not match. I wish him well but it should be somewhere else.
Knicks have a few more
Other than the 12 million dollar cap hit.
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doesn't make much sense to me.
If because his supporting cast sucks means he can't be effective how do you replace him?
injuries are injuries and I don't remember him being particularly injury prone.
Not really. He is a guy that needs everybody else aroumd him to be playing great for him to do his job. With that said, his coverage ability is limited. In today's NFL it is too easy for offenses to get matchups they want with personnel, formations, and motions. His weaknesses have not changed over time. When you give someone 9 to 12 mil per year he shouldn't be a guy that needs others around him to be great for him to play well. If he is getting that much miney he should be making those aroujd him better and he doesnt. In the last 4 years he has been part of a defense that been dreadful. SS is not a position you put that much money into when the rest of your defense is garbage. You'll never get back to that 2016 level. Our resources need ro be spent elsewhere imo. He will just slow down the process. And if we do fix the defense his contract will most likely have run out. I like Collins but where he is in his career and where we are on defense do not match. I wish him well but it should be somewhere else.
If Collins is really that limited I agree.
But you are creating a vicious cycle, getting rid of players with skill to try and replace them with cheaper players with skill. At some point you have to pay someone.
It seems like right now Vernon and Collins both need everyone around them to be great for them to be great.
Who is the guy who makes others great? They need more of them.
In the game of football, all of these moving parts are needed in concert.
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In comment 14302308 pjcas18 said:
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doesn't make much sense to me.
If because his supporting cast sucks means he can't be effective how do you replace him?
injuries are injuries and I don't remember him being particularly injury prone.
Not really. He is a guy that needs everybody else aroumd him to be playing great for him to do his job. With that said, his coverage ability is limited. In today's NFL it is too easy for offenses to get matchups they want with personnel, formations, and motions. His weaknesses have not changed over time. When you give someone 9 to 12 mil per year he shouldn't be a guy that needs others around him to be great for him to play well. If he is getting that much miney he should be making those aroujd him better and he doesnt. In the last 4 years he has been part of a defense that been dreadful. SS is not a position you put that much money into when the rest of your defense is garbage. You'll never get back to that 2016 level. Our resources need ro be spent elsewhere imo. He will just slow down the process. And if we do fix the defense his contract will most likely have run out. I like Collins but where he is in his career and where we are on defense do not match. I wish him well but it should be somewhere else.
If Collins is really that limited I agree.
But you are creating a vicious cycle, getting rid of players with skill to try and replace them with cheaper players with skill. At some point you have to pay someone.
It seems like right now Vernon and Collins both need everyone around them to be great for them to be great.
Who is the guy who makes others great? They need more of them.
This isn't a macro thing. It is Collins. SS is not an impactful position. Like Gettleman said, he wants to build up the lines. Part of why Collins has so many tackles is because our front seven isn't good. In today's NFL your safeties should be multidimensional. This isn't the 80s with clear defined roles. Your safeties really need to be interchangeable. He isn't. Not many defenses are going to allow Collins to play the way he wants to play. It just isn't the nature of the sport anymore.
On offense you can have weaknesses and hide them. If a WR doesnt have long speed he can stilk have a nice career working the middle of the field. On defense it is totally different. Offensive coordinators will find your weaknesses and expose them. That is what is happening to Collins. Someone said the other day that when Riley and Collins were oj the field Collins was targeted more. What does that say if true? We all know how bad Riley was.
Landon Collins was one of the best draft picks by Jerry Reese other than OBJ and some want both gone. Way to funny.
Landon and Odell are 2 of the best 5 players on the entire roster and in order to compete in the NFL you need players like 21 & 13 and they unfortunately need to get paid.
They are worth it and we as fans need to deal with this.
I would rather keep our great players than sign other teams great players.
I've said it the past several days - I think the SS position is like the Rhino. It's on the brink of extinction. The solution to me is going with just FSs. Get guys who can run and cover. Let's face it, too. The days of the SS intimidator - ala Ronnie Lott - has been legislated out of the game. And that's what LC really is...
-He could probably be a good to great LB but doesn't want to switch position. Not saying he should switch but versatility is nice.
-He's not a good FS. See previous on versatility.
-Some injury issues
-Should probably stay away from Twitter
I'd resign him to play SS at a reasonable cost. Not the cost of the top SS in the league. I've never viewed SS to be a premiere position to throw a lot of money at.
So, if your position is why spend on a SS when the team has so many holes and issues, it's a good question. Getting cap lean isn't a bad thing, especially if you're not getting proper performance value out of your most expensive players. The game has changed, more speed and more DBs are typically needed. I'd like to know if analytics are out there to draw conclusions.
My question is, who do you replace them with? Is there somebody better in the pipeline?
You don't get rid of good players just to get rid of them. You build up the rest of the team by getting rid of the lousy ones and replacing them with better players. No matter what team sport there is, there are very few teams that can win with a few good players and bunch of lousy ones.
This isn't a macro thing. It is Collins. SS is not an impactful position. Like Gettleman said, he wants to build up the lines. Part of why Collins has so many tackles is because our front seven isn't good. In today's NFL your safeties should be multidimensional. This isn't the 80s with clear defined roles. Your safeties really need to be interchangeable. He isn't. Not many defenses are going to allow Collins to play the way he wants to play. It just isn't the nature of the sport anymore.
SS isn't an impact position? Just what does that mean? I think in Bettcher's defense the SS is an important player.
So because the rest of the team cannot do its' job it is Collins' fault and should not get paid?
What team has interchangeable safeties? If they were interchangeable they wouldn't be called FS and SS. Not many interchangeable Safeties that can cover like a CB and hit like a LB.
His flaws carry legitimate concerns.
[quote]
Landon Collins was one of the best draft picks by Jerry Reese other than OBJ and some want both gone. Way to funny.
Yes, correct. He is one of the best in a very subpar group of draft picks. How many of Reese's great draft picks are even starters on this team? Maybe 2 on offense if Engram could ever stay on the field? 2 on defense?
Landon and Odell are 2 of the best 5 players on the entire roster and in order to compete in the NFL you need players like 21 & 13 and they unfortunately need to get paid.
They are worth it and we as fans need to deal with this.
I would rather keep our great players than sign other teams great players.
Keeping all of your great players is a nice thought. Kind of like world peace.
[quote] Guy is a hard hitting in the box safety with serious issues with his coverage. Playing in a Passing league where you cant hit guys any more its why he is only a JAG in a modern NFL defense. [/quote
This
That didn't happen for whatever reason.
I think that's why folks are down on him.
I think that is the main business decision here.
Traditional Safeties have never been a position of huge value. So blowing cap space on one for a losing team is most likely counter productive.
Keeping all of your great players is a nice thought. Kind of like world peace.
lolz
overpaying can be just as much a mistake as letting a guy go.
Simply put, this.
LC is a better tackling Roy Williams as of now.
2017 $3,870,386
2018 $5,248,621
2019 $3,218,333* (does not include LC cap#)
If you look at the relevant spend on LB and CB, the Gitant's salary for SS/FS represents low single percentage of the Giants total cap space. Currently Giants are committing $40M to Edge/LBs in 2019. Do you think that is a wise investment?
One could argue that both Ogletree ($11.75M) and Kareem Martin ($5.9M) are wildly overpaid based on production and lack of coverage skills, but people seem to not want to look at those terrible signings form last year when evaluating LC's contract situation b/c of cap space.
My preference would be to franchise tag LC and let him play for bigger contract in 2019. If Giants are all in on Eli then giving LC 1 more year will not hurt the tear down/rebuild process after Giants go 6-10 or worse in 2019. It would just free up more cap space next year. This is a business. Giants should make business decision.
So, if your position is why spend on a SS when the team has so many holes and issues, it's a good question. Getting cap lean isn't a bad thing, especially if you're not getting proper performance value out of your most expensive players. The game has changed, more speed and more DBs are typically needed. I'd like to know if analytics are out there to draw conclusions.
Really good post and this is what I'm wrestling with as well. On one hand, thinking very highly of Collins. But contrasting that with questions of just how crucial his type of safety is to an effective defense, and is that the place to devote major cap dollars? Unsure, but I'm starting to consider tag and trade as the best option.
Fair point, and I acknowledged that in my OP, but regardless of the adjective a large number of fans do not support keeping him at the FT or even on a LT deal.
So call it what you want.
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This isn't a macro thing. It is Collins. SS is not an impactful position. Like Gettleman said, he wants to build up the lines. Part of why Collins has so many tackles is because our front seven isn't good. In today's NFL your safeties should be multidimensional. This isn't the 80s with clear defined roles. Your safeties really need to be interchangeable. He isn't. Not many defenses are going to allow Collins to play the way he wants to play. It just isn't the nature of the sport anymore.
SS isn't an impact position? Just what does that mean? I think in Bettcher's defense the SS is an important player.
So because the rest of the team cannot do its' job it is Collins' fault and should not get paid?
What team has interchangeable safeties? If they were interchangeable they wouldn't be called FS and SS. Not many interchangeable Safeties that can cover like a CB and hit like a LB.
No, SS is not a position where you should have one of if not your highest paid player. In today's NFL, yes, your safeties should be able to tackle and cover. It doesn't mean they'll excel in both but if they are liabilities then offenses can take advantage of that. The terms SS and FS are still use but becoming antiquated. Coverages change based on formation and motion. You become handicapped in what a defense can do if you have defined roles for both with no flexibility.
If the SS was such an important position in Bettcher's D don't you think the Giants would have already started on a contract with him? They could have started working on it last year or now but instead he was available for a second if you believe the rumors.
And, no, it isn't Collins fault that the rest of the team suck but getting pass rushers helps out the secondary cover. Cover guys help a pass rush get home. How does a SS make others around him better? Beckham dictates coverages and allows others to get one on one attention. Barkley brings an extra dedender down into the box to help dictate coverage. These guys impact the game in many ways. Nobody is gameplanning against Collins.
As I said, I like Collins but his style of play and where we are at on defense is not a match. If we are going to build this team up then sinking ~12 mil into him doesn't help this defense out. You may disagree and that is fine but I agree that we need to address other positions. I'd rather have the 12 mil in cap space and the compensatory pick rather than have Collins on this team.
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serviceable safeties have been commonly found in later rounds. Many of our championship teams deployed rather average safeties and still won SBs. Herb Welch, Terry Kinard, Kenny Hill, James Butler, Myron Guyton, Greg Jackson, were all ok NFL players. But, they were protected by devastating front sevens who were capable of shrinking their side of the field and blow up edges.
So, if your position is why spend on a SS when the team has so many holes and issues, it's a good question. Getting cap lean isn't a bad thing, especially if you're not getting proper performance value out of your most expensive players. The game has changed, more speed and more DBs are typically needed. I'd like to know if analytics are out there to draw conclusions.
Really good post and this is what I'm wrestling with as well. On one hand, thinking very highly of Collins. But contrasting that with questions of just how crucial his type of safety is to an effective defense, and is that the place to devote major cap dollars? Unsure, but I'm starting to consider tag and trade as the best option.
Thanks, Kyle. If they're looking to part with Vernon and Jackrabbit, then by all means accelerate the rebuild and include Collins. I'd argue Collins is the most productive of the three, even in a down year. But, the reality is his position is the least vital of the three (and I played SS back in the day).
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Fair point, and I acknowledged that in my OP, but regardless of the adjective a large number of fans do not support keeping him at the FT or even on a LT deal.
So call it what you want.
I think we can also agree that fans probably aren't the best barometer on this. There's a disconnect at the ground floor between fan understanding of contracts in the NFL to be able to decide what a player should be paid.
The Franchise tag for safeties is historically among the lowest in the league. Only Kicker and TE are lower. And we don't have the number for 2019 because it hasnt been determined yet.
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In comment 14302423 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Fair point, and I acknowledged that in my OP, but regardless of the adjective a large number of fans do not support keeping him at the FT or even on a LT deal.
So call it what you want.
I think we can also agree that fans probably aren't the best barometer on this. There's a disconnect at the ground floor between fan understanding of contracts in the NFL to be able to decide what a player should be paid.
The Franchise tag for safeties is historically among the lowest in the league. Only Kicker and TE are lower. And we don't have the number for 2019 because it hasnt been determined yet.
Well it remains to be seen what the Giants do, if they assign the tag and rescind it b/c they can't reach a deal then the Giants are more in agreement with the fans than disagreement.
and let's face it, football team building isn't rocket science, the Giants (and all teams) from office make massive mistakes all the time.
So, while I am NOT saying fans can do it, or we should compare fans to front offices, I am saying front offices are not always right and to say "see the Giants did X when the fans wanted y" doesn't mean the fans were wrong.
So, while I am NOT saying fans can do it, or we should compare fans to front offices, I am saying front offices are not always right and to say "see the Giants did X when the fans wanted y" doesn't mean the fans were wrong.
Oh without question front offices are not always right. I agree 100%. There's plenty I disagree with with this current one.
I think front offices take a more sound approach to reaching the decisions they do though, and they do have access to more information than we do. Fans tend to have the mindset of dissatisfied customers. That's fine, it's who we are. But that can't be the mindset of the people who are evaluating players and negotiating contracts. If it were up to people like us, landon collins wouldn't have had a second season here to be able to play like an all pro in the first place.
LANDON COLLINS
DB, NEW YORK GIANTS
Colts beat writers expect the team to have interest in impending free agent S Landon Collins.
... The safety position is extremely important in Colts DC Matt Eberflus' defense, and Collins is a top talent and just turned 25. The question is whether the Giants use the franchise tag on Collins to keep him from reaching the open market.
He can not cover, AT ALL. Not a lick. His talents and hybrid LB play (not including first half this season) should not be questioned, he has proven to be great there.
I would not at all pay a SS who's really a LB 11+m per year for a multi year deal when our defense sucks.
We’re not winning shit this year. But we have a chance to win in the next 2-5 years.
Keep the long-term asset (Collins) and drop the one-year stop-gap (Eli).
That’s IF money is such a concern...
JPP went down . We had enough pass rush that Collins was
all over the field making plays Jack Rabbit was basically
a shutdown corner they jelled and made a damn good run .
I think they will offer him a decent deal and he will sign .
We can't just cut players without replacements . I feel he
is a bit underrated in coverage . The pass rush made the difference and we were solid vs the run he offense let us down at the end of the day it's the Oline thats hurt the
most .
Agreed, can’t pay a guy top dollar for his position when he requires stellar players all around him to be successful. I mean yes, you need solid players around you so you aren’t completely on your own, but this guy is not worth some huge contract.
We’re not winning shit this year. But we have a chance to win in the next 2-5 years.
Keep the long-term asset (Collins) and drop the one-year stop-gap (Eli).
Cut them both then. This shouldn't be an "either / or" question. Just because you cut Eli doesn't mean you have to keep COllins.
That’s IF money is such a concern...
We’re not winning shit this year. But we have a chance to win in the next 2-5 years.
Keep the long-term asset (Collins) and drop the one-year stop-gap (Eli).
That’s IF money is such a concern...
Cut them both then. This shouldn't be an "either / or" question. Just because you cut Eli doesn't mean you have to keep COllins.
The man can play and he can absolutely be a plus player again. I think he’s gonna have a bounce back season and I hope it’s with us.
So, after a three win season in which the offense was awful, last season started dismantling the defense that Reese had been so successful at putting together. JPP. Good for at least 7 or 8 sacks and a bunch of balls batted down at the LOS, who was supposed to make up for his production.
Harrison gone for a fifth round draft pick. Stupidest trade since Giants, opening the season at 0-7, panicked and acquired Craig Morton from the Cowboys for the 2nd overall pick in the draft, which turned into Randy White, who then terrorized the Giants for 10 years.
So Harrison, JPP and DRC gone (plus Giants gave up way to quickly on the 10th overall pick Eli Apple), and geniuses here want Collins and Vernon and maybe even Jenkins gone. Whose left to play? Do you want to free up a lot of cap space so you can go out and sign free agents? Who's going to do that better than Reese did in 2016?
The problem is that management, (and ownership) sucks. Gettleman came in and started getting rid of everyone he inherited from Reese. Do you think that, after the three win season which came from awful offense, they shouldn't have given the 2016 defensive players another full year to show what they could do?
In 2016 JPP and Vernon and blitzing Collins had a good pass rush going, until JPP went down for good in game 13.
I think it is also premature to call him injury prone. But one thing that really bothers me is the fact he is coming off shoulder surgery. The shoulder is probably thd most vulnerable joint and much more prone to reinjury. That bkthers me for a player whose game is physical.
I don’t think you understand how football works or how the SS position works. You are also taking “needs better players around him” far to literally.
If this team is going to trot out no pass rush, only have 1 cover corner, and mediocre to bad LBers, than yeah he’s not going to be as good as he should. This is a problem with the Giants more than it is Collins’ skill set.
...........
As I said, I like Collins but his style of play and where we are at on defense is not a match. If we are going to build this team up then sinking ~12 mil into him doesn't help this defense out. You may disagree and that is fine but I agree that we need to address other positions. I'd rather have the 12 mil in cap space and the compensatory pick rather than have Collins on this team.
I agree that $12 is far too much $$ for a SS with limited coverage skills. But he won't get that much on a long term deal. And I agree that other positions need help as does the entire team. But where/when do you stop getting rid of your best players if you are trying to build a team? Becomes the dog chasing its' tail. If they let Collins go, then they should get rid of Eli, Ogletree and OV too. The only high price contracts to stay are OBJ and Solder(unless they can get SF's 2nd and 36th for OBJ - wink, wink).
Yeah, sounds like they are talking about someone else on the team... LOL
Strong safeties probably should be the 4th highest paid position, unless they are also the best FS, and cover LB too.
2. we brought him in for that purpose and to support the run one year after we were getting gashed in the run game
3. he is a leader on the field
4. BBI likes shiny objects like interceptions and cannot see what is really happening on the field. One blown coverage in the passing game is what people see... not the dozens of plays that go unnoticed.
I don't get it either. And anytime anyone comes up to FA the immediate response regardless of the player is "he's going to want a lot of money...".
No fucking shit, doesn't every player? We will see what the market thinks of Collins, it may surprise some people.
Quality OCs, who realize that an advantage the offense has over the defense is being able to largely dictate the type of play called, actually target weaknesses.
A SS, who cannot cover worth a lick, even TEs and RBs over short and medium depth, is going to be a targeted weakness by quality teams.
This team will never improve if they constantly have to fill holes they could have avoided.
I guess with some you'd be right. But from some of us who don't want him you completely miss the point. It seems like you are burying your head in the sand for those of us who say we are rebuilding and don't want to sink $12m into a SS.