trying to wrap my head around the posters on this thread who have gone on and on about Eli's record and him being a constant on losing teams in other threads actually debunking that type of thinking when it comes to Odell in this thread.
The same posters.
Consistency would go a long way in argumentation. Unless an agenda is getting in the way of consistency...
I wouldn't be as worried about the WR position. If a trade were to go down (huge 'if'), I'd like to see the Giants take advantage of the supposedly strong TE draft and get a guy (or even two) to group with Engram. Passing out of 12 personnel was a full YPA better than passing out of 11 last season, and it seems like a great way to make Barkley's and Eli's lives easier. I really like the Iowa TE.
Huge amounts of play action out of 2 TE sets.
We agree. And now the universe with expose. But seriously i would love to get the Iowa kid in here go with the 2-3 TE set. That kid is a future star.
He had the most impressive combine performance in my book. 2nd amongst TE in jumping, 10 and 20. Plus he pushes LBs off the TV screen. Shows a tremdous qmount of explosive, twitchiness and core strength. Get him for Saquon.
do you really think that would have played out any differently?
He would have thrown a temper tantrum, held out, and the result would be the same. Except we wouldn't have to eat a dead cap hit in a trade like we do now.
They signed him thinking he had turned the corner. Showed up to workouts, played the “team” guy, put on the mask to get his deal. We’ve been saying this...
They all thought he turned the corner. Shurmur told Giants brass he could handle him, he wanted him.
The interview changed it ALL. It was a slap in the face to the organization and Mara got duped again. DG didn’t sign him to trade him until he went out and embarrassed them. He’s done.
He’s the biggest distraction this organization has seen and in the modern day era of sports it’s crippling. NO way they put up with the media frenzy this year.
Send his ass out of town. Build the line. Anyone notice the cowboys making the playoffs for all these years with a subpar QB, zero receiving threats but a killer o-line and stud running back? You don’t need this guy when you can build around 26 and the future QB.
Actually, Dallas' offense changed dramatically the second they acquired Amari Cooper. And they were willing to overpay to get him because that's how bad their WR group was and how poor their pass game production had been.
Dallas went 7-2 after Cooper arrived. He completely changed their offense. They were 1-5 when he got there.
In 2014, when they went 12-4, Dez Bryant had an all-pro season and scored 16 times.
But, don't let simple facts like these wreck your hyperbole-laden rant...
Cooper made a big difference there as they were able to properly utilize him. OL protection, half decent playcalling etc.
They were a different team with Cooper - it was night and day.
The disingenuous assertion by this poster who is trying to claim that Dallas has been succeeding in lieu of zero WR talent/production is very easy to debunk - but people will go to great lengths to fuel their anti-Odell Beckham crusade.
but I am not "anti-Beckham". He is amazingly talented and I want him on the team.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
If he doesn't, that is also partially on PS and DG to get him to shut his mouth and play football.
He's played for everybody. The key word is "shut his mouth" and play.
Gettleman signed him to a 90 million dollar deal, at Shurmur's insistence that he could keep him under control.
One month later, he's sitting next to little Wayne on national TV saying he wouldn't mind playing somewhere else and being non committal on his QB and everything else.
That's not getting somebody to shut their mouth and play.
Fans get worked up about that interview. Do you think Eli does? Do you think his teammates do?
Because you get bent out of shape about something does not mean it is somehow detrimental to the team.
RE: Go badmouth your company or boss on social media... Â
that this wild success of the Cowboys has yielded 4 playoff appearances in the past ten years with two playoff wins.
Ironically, the guy who is most responsible for even getting them as far as they've been recently is the RB.
The position that supposedly doesn't actually impact football games.
Elliott is the lifeblood of the Dallas offense. He has been for 3 years now. Everything goes through him. Without Elliott, Dallas is not the same team.
When Elliott was suspended in 2017, Dallas had a 3 game stretch against ATL, PHI, and LAC where they failed to even reach 10 points in any of them
RE: Fans aren't the ones shopping/taking trade offers for him. Â
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
The issue with Beckhem isn't his value on the field Â
Because he produces at an elite level, a rare elite level at that. And its why the Giants are possibly waiting for a kings ransom to trade him. Now if he brings back enough to rebuild this team in multiple spots (and we draft or get back at least a high potential type of WR to replace him) I would be OK with the trade. Having Barkley changes the dynamic of this team enough on offense provided that we can at least have a capable WR to replace him the offense will still be strong. We kind of showed that in the second half of the year without him playing the last 5 games or so. And that was with a Motley crue of WRs. If we get a decent replacement (maybe Parris Campbell 2nd round) I think the offense would still be pretty good.
RE: RE: Fans aren't the ones shopping/taking trade offers for him. Â
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
Okay, then nothing to see here I guess. CNN can go home now.
but I am not "anti-Beckham". He is amazingly talented and I want him on the team.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
It is a little funny reading your posts (and those of people who debate you) on Eli vs OBJ. They're absolute mirror images. (Not a criticism at all, just an observation)
RE: Fans aren't the ones shopping/taking trade offers for him. Â
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
Okay, then nothing to see here I guess. CNN can go home now.
Ownership loves the guy.
Again with the hysterical hyperbole!
Did I suggest they weren't taking offers to trade him? Did I suggest that mangagement loves him?
It sort of pointless to try to discuss something rationally when you can't seem to understand what is being said to you.
do you really think that would have played out any differently?
He would have thrown a temper tantrum, held out, and the result would be the same. Except we wouldn't have to eat a dead cap hit in a trade like we do now.
but I am not "anti-Beckham". He is amazingly talented and I want him on the team.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
It is a little funny reading your posts (and those of people who debate you) on Eli vs OBJ. They're absolute mirror images. (Not a criticism at all, just an observation)
Hmmm, I don't see it. You read any of the guys debating me on Eli saying any of those things about Eli?
that this wild success of the Cowboys has yielded 4 playoff appearances in the past ten years with two playoff wins.
I agree! Which is why I don't know why people are always citing them as a model of why building around a running back is such a brilliant idea, but that's a different story.
There's an aspect here that needs to be taken into account Â
This Offense is no longer OBJ's, this Offense is Barkleys now. It's going to start and run through him for the foreseeable future.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
that this wild success of the Cowboys has yielded 4 playoff appearances in the past ten years with two playoff wins.
I agree! Which is why I don't know why people are always citing them as a model of why building around a running back is such a brilliant idea, but that's a different story.
Well, they've been doing a heck of a lot better on the field than we have lately. I'd have a hard time arguing that Dallas isn't better run than NYG at the moment.
Prescott isn't good, though. The model isn't wrong - it's that Prescott isn't good enough.
That's not Elliott's fault. They need a better QB.
And it's not just a RB model - it's valuing the trenches. I actually think they've built a pretty solid foundation there.
Bottom line - they've had a winning record in 4 of the last 5 years.
We've had a winning record in 1 of the last 5 years.
So, I don't think we can totally turn up our noses at how they're building their roster.
Because then you don't need to waste a first round pick on a running back. A great OL can turn a relatively pedestrian back like Emmitt Smith into the NFL's alltime leading rusher. With a great OL, the 2008 Giants had the best rushing attack in football with a 4th round pick and two 7th round picks, one of whom was a Jets reject.
Barkley offers significantly more than a run of the mill RB who is only going to run through open running lanes.
How many tackles did Barkley break? How many defenders missed him on first contact?
Barkley has pass catching ability that most others don't. We can utilize that more going forward if we can actually protect well enough to line him up outside a bit and not be so worried to sell a pass play.
We could have drafted an offensive lineman instead and had him become Ereck Flowers redux. It's more important to draft good football players than obsess over the position they play.
Barkley is an incredible talent who offers significantly more than a JAG RB like Doug Martin or Carlos Hyde will.
Beyond that, the value comes by zagging where the league might "zig".
A lot of defenses are being built with lighter, more mobile/roaming linebackers to better defend quick passing games and get sideline to sideline. Teams started getting lighter and prioritizing speed and athleticism. You can find an advantage by ramming heavy sets down the throat of light-box defenses and Barkley is a guy we can hammer defenses with and then break home run plays.
It's not always wise to follow what everyone has already done.
Get ahead and build a legitimate power running game. The Patriots found tons of success doing exactly this. Belichick probably used similar reasoning to what I outlined above (albeit, in a much better and calculated way, I'm sure)
Find trends and bust them by countering them.
RE: There's an aspect here that needs to be taken into account Â
This Offense is no longer OBJ's, this Offense is Barkleys now. It's going to start and run through him for the foreseeable future.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
OBJ has been nothing but supportive of his teammates other than the interview where he questions why they aren't pushing the ball downfield, which could have just as easily been more of a shot at coaching.
He has been nothing but supportive of SB, the next sign of jealousy will be the first.
RE: RE: There's an aspect here that needs to be taken into account Â
This Offense is no longer OBJ's, this Offense is Barkleys now. It's going to start and run through him for the foreseeable future.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
OBJ has been nothing but supportive of his teammates other than the interview where he questions why they aren't pushing the ball downfield, which could have just as easily been more of a shot at coaching.
He has been nothing but supportive of SB, the next sign of jealousy will be the first.
I haven't said he hasn't been good with SB. But you can't say he has not been a distraction for the worse at times either
See what happens.
The same posters.
Consistency would go a long way in argumentation. Unless an agenda is getting in the way of consistency...
Quote:
I wouldn't be as worried about the WR position. If a trade were to go down (huge 'if'), I'd like to see the Giants take advantage of the supposedly strong TE draft and get a guy (or even two) to group with Engram. Passing out of 12 personnel was a full YPA better than passing out of 11 last season, and it seems like a great way to make Barkley's and Eli's lives easier. I really like the Iowa TE.
Huge amounts of play action out of 2 TE sets.
We agree. And now the universe with expose. But seriously i would love to get the Iowa kid in here go with the 2-3 TE set. That kid is a future star.
He had the most impressive combine performance in my book. 2nd amongst TE in jumping, 10 and 20. Plus he pushes LBs off the TV screen. Shows a tremdous qmount of explosive, twitchiness and core strength. Get him for Saquon.
Quote:
To setup the team for SB to lead, he can handle him but doesn't need the hassle of that locker room malcontent.
Yeah, because this team is ‘ready’ with Eli under center. *stare*
The offense improved when he made a business decision to improve his brand at the end of the year.
He would have thrown a temper tantrum, held out, and the result would be the same. Except we wouldn't have to eat a dead cap hit in a trade like we do now.
Quote:
In comment 14318420 GRBlue said:
Quote:
“We didn’t sign him to trade him.”
They signed him thinking he had turned the corner. Showed up to workouts, played the “team” guy, put on the mask to get his deal. We’ve been saying this...
They all thought he turned the corner. Shurmur told Giants brass he could handle him, he wanted him.
The interview changed it ALL. It was a slap in the face to the organization and Mara got duped again. DG didn’t sign him to trade him until he went out and embarrassed them. He’s done.
He’s the biggest distraction this organization has seen and in the modern day era of sports it’s crippling. NO way they put up with the media frenzy this year.
Send his ass out of town. Build the line. Anyone notice the cowboys making the playoffs for all these years with a subpar QB, zero receiving threats but a killer o-line and stud running back? You don’t need this guy when you can build around 26 and the future QB.
Actually, Dallas' offense changed dramatically the second they acquired Amari Cooper. And they were willing to overpay to get him because that's how bad their WR group was and how poor their pass game production had been.
Dallas went 7-2 after Cooper arrived. He completely changed their offense. They were 1-5 when he got there.
In 2014, when they went 12-4, Dez Bryant had an all-pro season and scored 16 times.
But, don't let simple facts like these wreck your hyperbole-laden rant...
Cooper made a big difference there as they were able to properly utilize him. OL protection, half decent playcalling etc.
They were a different team with Cooper - it was night and day.
The disingenuous assertion by this poster who is trying to claim that Dallas has been succeeding in lieu of zero WR talent/production is very easy to debunk - but people will go to great lengths to fuel their anti-Odell Beckham crusade.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
Quote:
If he doesn't, that is also partially on PS and DG to get him to shut his mouth and play football.
He's played for everybody. The key word is "shut his mouth" and play.
Gettleman signed him to a 90 million dollar deal, at Shurmur's insistence that he could keep him under control.
One month later, he's sitting next to little Wayne on national TV saying he wouldn't mind playing somewhere else and being non committal on his QB and everything else.
That's not getting somebody to shut their mouth and play.
Fans get worked up about that interview. Do you think Eli does? Do you think his teammates do?
Because you get bent out of shape about something does not mean it is somehow detrimental to the team.
See what happens.
Remind me again how he blasted him employer? "Yeah it would be cool to play somewhere else" is not exactly blasting his current employer.
This would be easier to understand without the hyperbole you are throwing in.
Ironically, the guy who is most responsible for even getting them as far as they've been recently is the RB.
The position that supposedly doesn't actually impact football games.
Elliott is the lifeblood of the Dallas offense. He has been for 3 years now. Everything goes through him. Without Elliott, Dallas is not the same team.
When Elliott was suspended in 2017, Dallas had a 3 game stretch against ATL, PHI, and LAC where they failed to even reach 10 points in any of them
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
Quote:
.
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
Okay, then nothing to see here I guess. CNN can go home now.
Ownership loves the guy.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
It is a little funny reading your posts (and those of people who debate you) on Eli vs OBJ. They're absolute mirror images. (Not a criticism at all, just an observation)
Are the Giants really shopping him though?
Sounds like more than a few teams have inquired and the answer has always been NO from the Giants.
Quote:
Odell could have easily gotten that contract from anybody. He could have turned it down and walked and played anywhere he wanted.
Yeah, no.
Ever heard of the franchise tag?
He did the smart thing, take the money then orchestrate the trade.
And you don't find that to be a shitty way of doing things? LOL
Quote:
In comment 14318950 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.
A team with this record should be taking trade offers for everyone with value. It would be irresponsible to do less. It just so happens that after OBJ and Barkley, there is little on this team that would return anything.
Okay, then nothing to see here I guess. CNN can go home now.
Ownership loves the guy.
Again with the hysterical hyperbole!
Did I suggest they weren't taking offers to trade him? Did I suggest that mangagement loves him?
It sort of pointless to try to discuss something rationally when you can't seem to understand what is being said to you.
He would have thrown a temper tantrum, held out, and the result would be the same. Except we wouldn't have to eat a dead cap hit in a trade like we do now.
Good point *hat tip*
Quote:
but I am not "anti-Beckham". He is amazingly talented and I want him on the team.
That said, this isn't about talent. Beckham is (has) burning bridges. Beckham is orchestrating much of what is happening here.
If he doesn't want to be here, then we should not keep him here. It's that simple. I don't our team to pay a guy 90 million dollars to be lukewarm about playing here.
It is a little funny reading your posts (and those of people who debate you) on Eli vs OBJ. They're absolute mirror images. (Not a criticism at all, just an observation)
Hmmm, I don't see it. You read any of the guys debating me on Eli saying any of those things about Eli?
I agree with Gettleman, they didn't sign the guy to a 90 million dollar contract to turn around and trade him.
I agree with Gettleman, they didn't sign the guy to a 90 million dollar contract to turn around and trade him.
I will agree with you that this has been a very dumb conversation.
I agree! Which is why I don't know why people are always citing them as a model of why building around a running back is such a brilliant idea, but that's a different story.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
Quote:
that this wild success of the Cowboys has yielded 4 playoff appearances in the past ten years with two playoff wins.
I agree! Which is why I don't know why people are always citing them as a model of why building around a running back is such a brilliant idea, but that's a different story.
Well, they've been doing a heck of a lot better on the field than we have lately. I'd have a hard time arguing that Dallas isn't better run than NYG at the moment.
Prescott isn't good, though. The model isn't wrong - it's that Prescott isn't good enough.
That's not Elliott's fault. They need a better QB.
And it's not just a RB model - it's valuing the trenches. I actually think they've built a pretty solid foundation there.
Bottom line - they've had a winning record in 4 of the last 5 years.
We've had a winning record in 1 of the last 5 years.
So, I don't think we can totally turn up our noses at how they're building their roster.
Barkley offers significantly more than a run of the mill RB who is only going to run through open running lanes.
How many tackles did Barkley break? How many defenders missed him on first contact?
Barkley has pass catching ability that most others don't. We can utilize that more going forward if we can actually protect well enough to line him up outside a bit and not be so worried to sell a pass play.
We could have drafted an offensive lineman instead and had him become Ereck Flowers redux. It's more important to draft good football players than obsess over the position they play.
Barkley is an incredible talent who offers significantly more than a JAG RB like Doug Martin or Carlos Hyde will.
Beyond that, the value comes by zagging where the league might "zig".
A lot of defenses are being built with lighter, more mobile/roaming linebackers to better defend quick passing games and get sideline to sideline. Teams started getting lighter and prioritizing speed and athleticism. You can find an advantage by ramming heavy sets down the throat of light-box defenses and Barkley is a guy we can hammer defenses with and then break home run plays.
It's not always wise to follow what everyone has already done.
Get ahead and build a legitimate power running game. The Patriots found tons of success doing exactly this. Belichick probably used similar reasoning to what I outlined above (albeit, in a much better and calculated way, I'm sure)
Find trends and bust them by countering them.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
OBJ has been nothing but supportive of his teammates other than the interview where he questions why they aren't pushing the ball downfield, which could have just as easily been more of a shot at coaching.
He has been nothing but supportive of SB, the next sign of jealousy will be the first.
Quote:
This Offense is no longer OBJ's, this Offense is Barkleys now. It's going to start and run through him for the foreseeable future.
Is that fact going to cause more issues with OBJ? Add in a rookie QB to the mix in the next 2 years and I don't think any team that has just gone through such a huge shift both in a youth movement and the direction of the Offense wants to deal with any kind of BS from a player regardless how good he is.
OBJ has been nothing but supportive of his teammates other than the interview where he questions why they aren't pushing the ball downfield, which could have just as easily been more of a shot at coaching.
He has been nothing but supportive of SB, the next sign of jealousy will be the first.