The start of all failures was poor drafting on the oline, not moving on from players that were done in the oline and keeping failed oline draft picks. Hill ride called it.
The start of all failures was poor drafting on the oline, not moving on from players that were done in the oline and keeping failed oline draft picks. Hill ride called it.
Teams had a lot more practice time, so developing raw but athletic players was more feasible than it is now. When the CBA changed, Reese never adjusted and continued to draff projects, which is why we kept wiffing on player after player in the draft.
it starts IMO with talent valuation as whole, failed drafts, compounded by poor FA acquisitions that were designed to accommodate for failed drafts, and then poor coaching/front office decisions.
If you had to pick a biggest mistake I think it begins and ends with drafting, because it all snow-balled from there.
Legit 1st round misses and you CANNOT miss in the first round without feeling pain elsewhere, and then when it's compounded by poor free agent choices you wind up in the world of shit the Giants are in now.
in 2013 instead of trying to make one last gasp for the Super Bowl when it was at MetLife in 2013. It was clear by the end of 2012, the championship core that Ernie had built was lucky to squeeze out one more title in 2011.
I've written on here before, after Sandy, the Giants were never the same, and the back to back blowouts by Atlanta and Baltimore late in the season should have been the clue that the Giants run was over and they needed to rebuild. They put too much stock in blowing out an Eagle team 42-7 in Andy Reid's final game of 2012, when a high school team could have beaten Philly that day for how badly they rolled over and died, finishing 4-12.
This. And in retrospect they probably should have gone scorched earth after 2013 and fired everyone instead of just sacking gilbride. But who knows what that would have accomplished...
On second thought I take it back, their biggest mistake was hiring mcadoo as OC which lead to HC. I’d go back and undo that one move and call it a day.
and not building a roster that emphasized the Franchise. The SB(s) sustained and fueled Reese's arrogance in thinking that it was his doing. The Giants had already made their commitment to Eli. He was the Franchise. Every action should have been in support of him instead of Reese thinking that his "basketball on grass" philosophy should be used to build a roster.
Ultimately, Reese should have been fired when Coughlin was let go.
I would take the OL topic back even farther in time. Â
If we're allowed unlimited hindsight, the right move was to break up the OL in 2008/2009 and rebuild it. No extensions for O'Hara (overrated) and McKenzie (declining), no multiple restructures for Snee and Diehl (wheels coming off).
But, but... "What about SB XLVI?" Well, what about it? The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite the OL, which was awful, not because of it. The line played pretty well in the Super Bowl run, but McKenzie and Diehl were the weak links and O'Hara and Seubert had already retired. Even Snee was very nearly cooked, though he and Coughlin were effectively a package deal.
that unit aged and they didn't adequately replace them - or the overall team toughness in the trenches that came with them. Beatty was a good pick but after that they didn't spend any premium picks on the OL for a long time. Picking David Wilson over Cordy Glenn was a first guess by many that seemed like a golden opportunity missed in 2012. Passing on Alex Mack and Max Unger were others.
Not making those investments led to overpaying for flawed FA's like Baas and Schwartz, and continued through the new regime with Omameh (& to less of a degree Solder/Zeitler who are at least both good players, even if they are expensive).
Obviously there were also poor evaluations/draft picks with Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. Those guys were almost worse evaluations in terms of demeanor than they were talent.
The pass rush deteriorating was also a big problem, but part of that was bad luck with the JPP situation. The last SB was won in his 2nd year and he looked like he was going to be a DPOY candidate for the next several years. He was clearly more talented than both Osi/Tuck ever were. They didn't do a good job finding more pass rushers but that's a lot harder to do than finding solid interior OL who are a dime a dozen.
At a time when the OL was in decline it showed they didn't understand what was important in building a team. Also, Wilson's size (he wasn't big enough to execute his blitz protections) meant he wasn't an every down back and you don't take a gadget back with a #1 pick.
guess draft picks all day, there is almost always the chance to say "should have picked player x" (cordy glenn over wilson for example).
but that's not why the wheels came off.
Again, it was talent evaluation.
The wheels came off b/c the Giants drafted players like Pugh, Richburg, Flowers for the OL. two 1sts and a 2nd - should be more than enough investment in an OL to compete - it's more than most teams invest in the OL.
Add to that failed picks like Amukamara, Apple, etc.
Who was the Giants last successful 3rd round pick (not counting Carter)?
Manningham? You're going back 10 years.
Missing on draft picks, especially in the first 3 rounds has a trickle down effect.
But I don't think it's accurate to say the Giants neglected the line. It might be partially true by the time they addressed, but it's the talent evaluation of the players they selected for the OL where the failure happened on the OL - and broader talent evaluation.
RE: I would take the OL topic back even farther in time. Â
If we're allowed unlimited hindsight, the right move was to break up the OL in 2008/2009 and rebuild it. No extensions for O'Hara (overrated) and McKenzie (declining), no multiple restructures for Snee and Diehl (wheels coming off).
But, but... "What about SB XLVI?" Well, what about it? The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite the OL, which was awful, not because of it. The line played pretty well in the Super Bowl run, but McKenzie and Diehl were the weak links and O'Hara and Seubert had already retired. Even Snee was very nearly cooked, though he and Coughlin were effectively a package deal.
Good post. The game in Cleveland has always stuck in my mind as the point of inflection.
To me the biggest mistake has been the failure to see the two Super Bowl runs as flukish runs rather than a model to be followed.
echo the comments on Reese and not ruthlessly restocking the Ol in 2010.
i think 2007 was the result of a good team building effort.
i think 2011 sends a false positive echoing down the halls of Giant leadership...and that is if we stay close then we can win by going on a hot streak. thats not a plan.
Lastly, i dont think they are so much loyal as they are not in synch with the 3 to 5 year cycle of team performance that is true of every team for 2 decades ....except the Patriots.
i think they are out of touch with the time cycle of the modern NFL
lousy talent evaluation cascaded into worse decision making Â
The wheels came off b/c the Giants drafted players like Pugh, Richburg, Flowers for the OL. two 1sts and a 2nd - should be more than enough investment in an OL to compete - it's more than most teams invest in the OL...
These players were drafted (when and at the premium picks they were) because of sheer desperation to patch a unit that had come undone.
Yes, the picks were awful, but a big part they were awful was that Reese and Ross left themselves no choice because of the consequences of prior years' failures in the draft and FA and a myopic approach to building a team that could compete.
And, yes, that goes back to the Maras lack of football acumen in the decisions they made and did not make.
It was problematic even during the last run as mentioned above. The horrendous drafting and free agent additions since that run to help address it only failed. And no real development of any undrafted free agents and prospects.
For horrible drafting... swinging and missing badly with David Wilson, Justin Pugh, Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple among so many others is not going to lead to a strong roster.
He said, "it all starts with the trenches - build the best trench (on both sides) in the league, and build out from there.
Somewhere, he got away from that after a few years and no one picked up on it.
Now we have a chance. All we need is a solid RT and the OL looks above average. DL needs work. We have the skill players to have a fantastic air and ground game. We need to own the trench!
Wasting a 1st rd on David Wilson who only played 1.5 seasons before having to retire was a great moment in Giants history
There really wasnt anything wrong with drafting Wilson. They needed a RB and the guy drafted ahead of him didn’t do anything great. After reducing his fumbling problem, he showed he could flip the field and be a game changer in his brief career. Find another pet peeve to whine about.
10000%!! The biggest mistake was talent evaluation. (Which falls in Reese’s ass). Self scouting, over valuing their own players, poor draft evaluations- picking wrong players. TRYING to rebuild the offensive line and being pathetically bad about it.
Even though Gettleman hasn’t been great across the board, at worse Soldier isn’t bad and Zeitler can play. Now compare those moves to the ones Reese made. His 3 OL picks were misses, and the FA he brought in were ineffective. The biggest mistake Mara has made was not correctly realizing this sooner (it took the Eli debacle) and canning Reese earlier, like 2015 or so.
Clearly it was the OL. For me, and I was a Reese holdout, was the draft where he took Engram and passed on Ramzyk and Cam Robinson. We needed a TE but desperately needed OL. The draft was strong in TEs but very weak in OL. I think had he taken Ramzyk, the OL would have been much better & a good decent blocking TE could have been had in the 4th or 5th round. Reese passed up on rebuilding the OL & took a matchup TE who could not block & didn’t draft OL until Biz in the 6th. That was it for me
During the building phase between 2004-2007 primarily the Giants focused on finding the next QB & followed suit with building up the lines, specifically the pass rush. Ernie’s line of “you can never have enough pass rushers” was a philosophy.
The dynamic of Eli + solid OL + DL made the Giants a dangerous team. Those ingredients will always be dangerous in January & it paid off with 2 titles.
The problem is, they lost touch with that philosophy & never added reinforcements from 2008 - 2012. Eli’s cap number hurt, but they should have allocated their resources much better than they did.
Not rebuilding the Oline correctly
And also, not rebuilding the Oline correctly
Thats the answer in a nut shell. Reese ans Ross were hung up on athletic and size measurables with no clue on evaluating the intangibles that make great linemen. Especially on the OL. MO.
And also, not rebuilding the Oline correctly
Gilbride
If you had to pick a biggest mistake I think it begins and ends with drafting, because it all snow-balled from there.
Legit 1st round misses and you CANNOT miss in the first round without feeling pain elsewhere, and then when it's compounded by poor free agent choices you wind up in the world of shit the Giants are in now.
I've written on here before, after Sandy, the Giants were never the same, and the back to back blowouts by Atlanta and Baltimore late in the season should have been the clue that the Giants run was over and they needed to rebuild. They put too much stock in blowing out an Eagle team 42-7 in Andy Reid's final game of 2012, when a high school team could have beaten Philly that day for how badly they rolled over and died, finishing 4-12.
This. And in retrospect they probably should have gone scorched earth after 2013 and fired everyone instead of just sacking gilbride. But who knows what that would have accomplished...
On second thought I take it back, their biggest mistake was hiring mcadoo as OC which lead to HC. I’d go back and undo that one move and call it a day.
+1
Ultimately, Reese should have been fired when Coughlin was let go.
But, but... "What about SB XLVI?" Well, what about it? The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite the OL, which was awful, not because of it. The line played pretty well in the Super Bowl run, but McKenzie and Diehl were the weak links and O'Hara and Seubert had already retired. Even Snee was very nearly cooked, though he and Coughlin were effectively a package deal.
I wasn’t excited about the pick, but unless the medical staff could have picked up spinal stenosis during his exams, injuries happen.
Not making those investments led to overpaying for flawed FA's like Baas and Schwartz, and continued through the new regime with Omameh (& to less of a degree Solder/Zeitler who are at least both good players, even if they are expensive).
Obviously there were also poor evaluations/draft picks with Flowers, Pugh, and Richburg. Those guys were almost worse evaluations in terms of demeanor than they were talent.
The pass rush deteriorating was also a big problem, but part of that was bad luck with the JPP situation. The last SB was won in his 2nd year and he looked like he was going to be a DPOY candidate for the next several years. He was clearly more talented than both Osi/Tuck ever were. They didn't do a good job finding more pass rushers but that's a lot harder to do than finding solid interior OL who are a dime a dozen.
but that's not why the wheels came off.
Again, it was talent evaluation.
The wheels came off b/c the Giants drafted players like Pugh, Richburg, Flowers for the OL. two 1sts and a 2nd - should be more than enough investment in an OL to compete - it's more than most teams invest in the OL.
Add to that failed picks like Amukamara, Apple, etc.
Who was the Giants last successful 3rd round pick (not counting Carter)?
Manningham? You're going back 10 years.
Missing on draft picks, especially in the first 3 rounds has a trickle down effect.
But I don't think it's accurate to say the Giants neglected the line. It might be partially true by the time they addressed, but it's the talent evaluation of the players they selected for the OL where the failure happened on the OL - and broader talent evaluation.
But, but... "What about SB XLVI?" Well, what about it? The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite the OL, which was awful, not because of it. The line played pretty well in the Super Bowl run, but McKenzie and Diehl were the weak links and O'Hara and Seubert had already retired. Even Snee was very nearly cooked, though he and Coughlin were effectively a package deal.
Good post. The game in Cleveland has always stuck in my mind as the point of inflection.
To me the biggest mistake has been the failure to see the two Super Bowl runs as flukish runs rather than a model to be followed.
"One more run with Eli."
i think 2007 was the result of a good team building effort.
i think 2011 sends a false positive echoing down the halls of Giant leadership...and that is if we stay close then we can win by going on a hot streak. thats not a plan.
Lastly, i dont think they are so much loyal as they are not in synch with the 3 to 5 year cycle of team performance that is true of every team for 2 decades ....except the Patriots.
i think they are out of touch with the time cycle of the modern NFL
Yes, the picks were awful, but a big part they were awful was that Reese and Ross left themselves no choice because of the consequences of prior years' failures in the draft and FA and a myopic approach to building a team that could compete.
And, yes, that goes back to the Maras lack of football acumen in the decisions they made and did not make.
anyone who watched that game should have absorbed its lessons
Drop the Mic..Let’s move on
= disaster...
Somewhere, he got away from that after a few years and no one picked up on it.
Now we have a chance. All we need is a solid RT and the OL looks above average. DL needs work. We have the skill players to have a fantastic air and ground game. We need to own the trench!
There really wasnt anything wrong with drafting Wilson. They needed a RB and the guy drafted ahead of him didn’t do anything great. After reducing his fumbling problem, he showed he could flip the field and be a game changer in his brief career. Find another pet peeve to whine about.
Even though Gettleman hasn’t been great across the board, at worse Soldier isn’t bad and Zeitler can play. Now compare those moves to the ones Reese made. His 3 OL picks were misses, and the FA he brought in were ineffective. The biggest mistake Mara has made was not correctly realizing this sooner (it took the Eli debacle) and canning Reese earlier, like 2015 or so.
Schwartz
Richburg
Followed by the Eli extension while not building a great roster.
Clearly it was the OL. For me, and I was a Reese holdout, was the draft where he took Engram and passed on Ramzyk and Cam Robinson. We needed a TE but desperately needed OL. The draft was strong in TEs but very weak in OL. I think had he taken Ramzyk, the OL would have been much better & a good decent blocking TE could have been had in the 4th or 5th round. Reese passed up on rebuilding the OL & took a matchup TE who could not block & didn’t draft OL until Biz in the 6th. That was it for me
That's not an indictment on Eli it's just my feeling on QBs and salary cap allocation
That's not an indictment on Eli it's just my feeling on QBs and salary cap allocation
Truth.
The dynamic of Eli + solid OL + DL made the Giants a dangerous team. Those ingredients will always be dangerous in January & it paid off with 2 titles.
The problem is, they lost touch with that philosophy & never added reinforcements from 2008 - 2012. Eli’s cap number hurt, but they should have allocated their resources much better than they did.
And also, not rebuilding the Oline correctly