Lotta misses and even more bad luck. But I think it also is worth remembering that while we aren’t the Pats, we’re hardly the Jets either. If we look back at all the various ups and downs, the truth is that the owners have always wanted to win and they’ve tried to win. Think about the Cowboys or the Raiders or the Washington franchise or the Bills or the Phins... there’s so many NFL teams that have been truly pathetic with really clueless owners many of whom could care less about winning or the fans. So, yeah, we haven’t won three Supes with Eli (yet) and the past 5 years have mostly sucked. But, we have Barks and 4 Lombardi’s to think about. DG just made a good trade, he had a good draft last season and he’s got a bunch of picks for this draft. So, half full for me.
guess draft picks all day, there is almost always the chance to say "should have picked player x" (cordy glenn over wilson for example).
but that's not why the wheels came off.
Again, it was talent evaluation.
The wheels came off b/c the Giants drafted players like Pugh, Richburg, Flowers for the OL. two 1sts and a 2nd - should be more than enough investment in an OL to compete - it's more than most teams invest in the OL.
Add to that failed picks like Amukamara, Apple, etc.
Who was the Giants last successful 3rd round pick (not counting Carter)?
Manningham? You're going back 10 years.
Missing on draft picks, especially in the first 3 rounds has a trickle down effect.
But I don't think it's accurate to say the Giants neglected the line. It might be partially true by the time they addressed, but it's the talent evaluation of the players they selected for the OL where the failure happened on the OL - and broader talent evaluation.
The mistake wasn’t individual bad selections it was the faulty core beliefs that led to those bad picks in the first place and the poor resource allocation to the o line from 08-2013. From 2013 on they did spend a lot of resources on the line and the problem morphed into more of an evaluation issue, though they may have also been forcing things bc of how talent deficient they were by then. In any draft individual selections can be second guessed with hindsight, yes, but it’s not unfair to to point out the facts that for almost half a decade Reese only spent 1 top 3 round pick on an OL (Beatty).
It was like the Giants Front office just said 2 rings is good enough for now, lets take a break. It started with not focusing on rebuilding the Oline for Eli. After that, taking to many gambles on certain players, not drafting well, Mcadoo, and to much damn Loyalty. Keeping Reese that long was their downfall. It still amazes me on what they saw in Mcadoo to think he was a good fit?? That's just awful when you think about it. Now they find themselves picking up the pieces after waiting so long. smh.
Ignoring the offensive line over and over
Ignoring the linebackers over and over
Draft philosophy of constantly picking the best back flipping athlete w “potential” instead of actual good football player
RE: Paying Eli contributed, but more so lost identity Â
During the building phase between 2004-2007 primarily the Giants focused on finding the next QB & followed suit with building up the lines, specifically the pass rush. Ernie’s line of “you can never have enough pass rushers” was a philosophy.
The dynamic of Eli + solid OL + DL made the Giants a dangerous team. Those ingredients will always be dangerous in January & it paid off with 2 titles.
The problem is, they lost touch with that philosophy & never added reinforcements from 2008 - 2012. Eli’s cap number hurt, but they should have allocated their resources much better than they did.
Hate to say it but this team has had devastating injuries. Nicks, Cruz, JPP, that promising safety, etc. Even the OL pick ups Schwartz and Baas. I was not a fan of Reese/Ross combo but they certainly had a lot of replacement to deal with. Had they selected better lineman I think this team would have had far better results in recent years. I am confident Gettleman will at least make this team a physical team again.
As other stated, very little production in the draft and the misses in the first round are catastrophic.
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This. And in retrospect they probably should have gone scorched earth after 2013 and fired everyone instead of just sacking gilbride. But who knows what that would have accomplished...
On second thought I take it back, their biggest mistake was hiring mcadoo as OC which lead to HC. I’d go back and undo that one move and call it a day.
Yes, everyone but Eli should've been gone after 2013. Instead, a series of half-measures (firing Gilbride, then Coughlin, then Reese, coupled with the milquetoast McAdoo hire) lead to the point we're at now.
In comment 14322835 Bill2 said:
[quote]
i think 2007 was the result of a good team building effort.
i think 2011 sends a false positive echoing down the halls of Giant leadership...and that is if we stay close then we can win by going on a hot streak. thats not a plan.
[/quote
Agree with this totally. The 2007 team was part of a continuum from 2005-2008 where the combined record was 41-23; they were a top franchise in the NFL that was only waiting for Eli to finally mature in the 2008 playoffs to become fully formed.
The 2011 team, however, was a collection of players who were never quite as good as they were either before or after that season due to injuries, lack of skill, or dumb luck...and even then they barely made the playoffs. They actually remind me very much of the 2002 USA men's world cup soccer team.
After 2011, the Giants FO never seemed to have a plan to build a dominant team, instead they tried to conduct patchwork every year to build a "just good enough to get in" team.
Mara runs the franchise. He HAD to be able to recognize that Reese and Ross needed to get the boot (and didn’t ). He compounded this error by not cleaning house in 2015 and piece mealing things. Which brought us Mac. Until they get rid of Manning I’m not sure he’s learned anything.
Eli got more consistent in the west coast offense despite less talent Â
around him - it just didn't compensate for the lack of a running game and structural reduction of talent across the board. They won the 2nd SB on the strength of the downfield passing game with Nicks + Cruz both at full strength and last bit of production from Bradshaw and the aging OL keeping defenses a little honest. Nicks getting hurt was the straw that broke the camels back in the sense that they just weren't good enough to create multiple mismatches from that point forward. And they became enormously 1 dimensional.
Don't get me wrong, Mcadoo's offense had a lot of problems, not the least of which was his playcalling and run/pass balance. It was the wrong cure for flawed diagnosis (we had a talent problem, not a scheme problem). But it did help Eli improve in some ways despite the talent declining around him. Whether or not it was the best use of his talents in combination with the personnel around him is a multi-dimensional question, but in terms of results there was a mixed bag of good and bad (higher completion %, more yards, less big plays, less interceptions).
Just a stupid and desperate draft selection. I will always believe they were going to draft Lael Collins until the allegations came out. When he was off the table, they simply took who they thought (and were wrong) the next best tackle was. Had they drafted Andrus Peat, they would have had a good solid lineman for years. The Flowers pick turned a bad situation into a catastrophe.
coming, but there was no pipeline of talent brought in aside from JPP.
JPP + the major core remaining from the 2004-2007 team build was enough to squeeze out another title in 2011. Once the 2013 draft rolled around, the Giants tried to build up the OL & misfired on picks.
Another huge issue is Eli’s cap number in addition to his aging.
Pugh, Richberg, and Flowers showed our priorities were fine, but our analysis was poor. I still don't understand how that's possible. Couldn't coaches or former players see that none of these guys was a worth a high pick?
To identify that the o line was deteriorating sooner, as Eli masked a lot of issues in 2011. Then failure to identify and develop talent through the draft. A lot of high upside high risk players were drafted that just weren’t good football players. Then holding onto reese way too long.
I thought Eli did well in the WCO... he had some of his best stats Â
It’s all on him as far as I’m concerned and i don’t need to even go into any Eli conspiracy crap. He signs off on a rebuild 14-15 then wacks coughlin. Hires his own guy in mcadoo, puts the GM on notice then allows for big spending. Wrong plan there Johnny. You let the young HC build his own team at a long view pace and don’t foster an environment where the GM is desperate and saddled with a HC he didn’t even hire.
That was a mistake but obviously wouldn't have headed off the downward spiral post super bowl 46.
At the end of the day Reese inherited several core strengths of the connective tissue of both SB rosters - Coughlin, Eli, pass rush (Osi + Tuck in particular), and the core of the OL. Those elements weren't always consistent or dominant but they came up big in big games.
Reese certainly deserves credit for helping draft those guys in the first place before he was GM, and his pick of JPP was as big of reason for the improbable SB 46 win as anyone, but overall his regime oversaw the deterioration of those units because they were unable to replace the guys he'd inherited when they moved on.
Reese should never have lasted as long as he did had they accurately assessed what they had. Similarly they overestimated things following McAdoos first season, and I’d argue again last season.
Gettleman is doing the same dumb shit Reese did. They're both symptoms
Remains to be seen - he had a mixed first offseason but he had the best draft we've seen in a while and his focus in the trenches was a lot better. I'm curious to see what he does this year (and how it plays out on the field).
Another major failure I haven’t seen mentioned was Reese’s inability to keep the front stocked with passrushers. He inherited Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and Kiwi and only added JPP in 10 drafts.
I've come to believe this is true. I am old enough to remember when Wellington Mara was the problem. He stopped being the problem and moved into his role as Beloved Giants Legend when he gave the reins to George Young. John Mara needs to do the same, and if necessary Steve Tisch should stand up to him and force the issue.
The Giants have not been run well, and Mara's the guy running it. If he were an employee, he'd have been fired with Reese. But since he's (half) owner, he can fire the other guys.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I'm not counting on it.
Reese's over valuation of skills players on both offense and defense Â
and undervaluation of OL and D front seven players, along with awful assessment of OL talent.
He never met an undersized speedy CB or talented WR he wouldn't pick instead of a solid OL or DL player.
And just didn't understand the function of LBs whatsoever.
Ironic, because wasn't JR a LB himself?
In the end it seemed he had little idea what a football player was.
My favorite example of his bias was that even his best draft pick - OBJ - was a mistake. He should have drafted Aaron Donald at that slot, because DL are more impactful than WR...
Just a bad football "vision" or philosophy. Combined with poor talent evaluation on the OL particularly.
I think Mara’s biggest issue is sensitivity to what the fans think Â
Years ago I analyzed Reese's pick allocation, and he was drafting gung-ho for WRs and CBs, especially WRs, at the detriment to stocking the team with starting OL and future OL.
I mean the Giants drafted more WR and skills guys than any other team in the league by far. And for OL they tagged James Brewer, a dreadful misfit who couldn't block a lick.
RE: Eric on LI - good posts, especially the 2:32. Â
Years ago I analyzed Reese's pick allocation, and he was drafting gung-ho for WRs and CBs, especially WRs, at the detriment to stocking the team with starting OL and future OL.
I mean the Giants drafted more WR and skills guys than any other team in the league by far. And for OL they tagged James Brewer, a dreadful misfit who couldn't block a lick.
It aligns with his basketball on grass philosophy. Get the ball into the hands of the playmakers and stops said playmakers. The trenches are just undervalued.
And Brewer? Our most lasting memory of him is cuddling a teddy bear. A NY Football Giants OLineman cuddling a teddy bear...
RE: I think Mara’s biggest issue is sensitivity to what the fans think Â
A lot of the last 2 years can be pointed to how pathetic the fans acted during the Eli benching at 2-9. Fans bought fucking billboards.
If you haven't listened to the Evan Silva podcast from a few days ago (Big Blue Bubble Boy), listen to it. I'm sure it overstates Mike Francesa's influence, but the points hold. It's a good summary of why the Giants are where they are.
Even though they drafted players. THose players were not working oout. You can't just keep throwing them out there and praying to the Oline gods for a miracle. On the OL you need to constantly cycle players until you have ones that are working. And even then you need to be constantly planning for replacements. The OL is that important that you must invest and keep on investing.
I won't argue that Eli was paid too much. But, mismanaging the OL is a far greater sin in my opinion. A solid OL can cover many other sins.
Didn't even let him coach 2 full seasons, before firing him.
And once he knew Eli was the problem, he was fired for it. Even though you guys were littered with injuries in 2017, he was fired after going 2-10.
The Giants finished the 2016 season with an 11–5 record under McAdoo, tying the franchise record held by Dan Reeves for most regular season wins by a first year head coach. The Giants returned to the playoffs for the first time since 2011, but lost to the Green Bay Packers 38–13.
How you fire a coach that quick, is crazy. Whether you like him or not? He didn't deserve that & had the balls to replace Eli.
He knew what needed to be done. Unfortunately, he doesn't own the team.
it's good to see that there are still some on BBI that manage to do some critical thinking and realize it's a problem that isn't tied to a singular decision or turning point.
It started with some bad luck - players who were injured or had careers shortened due to injury that necessitated refilling those positions that should have been staffed for longer (Snee, Nicks, Phillips, Wilson, Cruz - we won't mention TThomas since he was an injury risk from college).
They definitely waited too long for OL - they left in veterans like Snee, O'Hara and Diehl well past their primes. When they did focus on the OL, they spent resources in both FA and in the draft, and missed badly.
It seemed like the FO and coaching staff didn't share a vision for the team and routinely ended up trying to wedge square pegs into round holes.
When it was time for a house cleaning - the whole thing was botched. Instead, TC was let go, and there was an aborted coaching staff search when they feared that McAdoo might jump ship. They would have been better suited to clean house entirely.
And when Reese and McAdoo went - they practically stayed in house again for the GM hire, bringing back Gettleman and leaving the scouting staff intact. I'm always amazed at how little turnover there was in the FO/scouting dept - literally two positions - and that people are surprised that the team is still doing poorly.
It was a cascade of errors, and a panicking team wildly spinning the steering wheel of the bus while it careened across a patch of ice. Each mistake trying to compensate for the last, trying to patch in one place and ending up only making more holes. That direction seems to have been coming from the top, and it doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.
What's interesting is that the nature of the issue is starting to become clearer outside the team, the local media, and the fans. There are some really great and compelling criticisms bring made by a lot of smart people. And they are being backed up with good data.
but that's not why the wheels came off.
Again, it was talent evaluation.
The wheels came off b/c the Giants drafted players like Pugh, Richburg, Flowers for the OL. two 1sts and a 2nd - should be more than enough investment in an OL to compete - it's more than most teams invest in the OL.
Add to that failed picks like Amukamara, Apple, etc.
Who was the Giants last successful 3rd round pick (not counting Carter)?
Manningham? You're going back 10 years.
Missing on draft picks, especially in the first 3 rounds has a trickle down effect.
But I don't think it's accurate to say the Giants neglected the line. It might be partially true by the time they addressed, but it's the talent evaluation of the players they selected for the OL where the failure happened on the OL - and broader talent evaluation.
The mistake wasn’t individual bad selections it was the faulty core beliefs that led to those bad picks in the first place and the poor resource allocation to the o line from 08-2013. From 2013 on they did spend a lot of resources on the line and the problem morphed into more of an evaluation issue, though they may have also been forcing things bc of how talent deficient they were by then. In any draft individual selections can be second guessed with hindsight, yes, but it’s not unfair to to point out the facts that for almost half a decade Reese only spent 1 top 3 round pick on an OL (Beatty).
Ignoring the linebackers over and over
Draft philosophy of constantly picking the best back flipping athlete w “potential” instead of actual good football player
The dynamic of Eli + solid OL + DL made the Giants a dangerous team. Those ingredients will always be dangerous in January & it paid off with 2 titles.
The problem is, they lost touch with that philosophy & never added reinforcements from 2008 - 2012. Eli’s cap number hurt, but they should have allocated their resources much better than they did.
Nice post imo
As other stated, very little production in the draft and the misses in the first round are catastrophic.
This. Ross was the beginning of Reese’s downfall.
Quote:
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This. And in retrospect they probably should have gone scorched earth after 2013 and fired everyone instead of just sacking gilbride. But who knows what that would have accomplished...
On second thought I take it back, their biggest mistake was hiring mcadoo as OC which lead to HC. I’d go back and undo that one move and call it a day.
Yes, everyone but Eli should've been gone after 2013. Instead, a series of half-measures (firing Gilbride, then Coughlin, then Reese, coupled with the milquetoast McAdoo hire) lead to the point we're at now.
[quote]
i think 2007 was the result of a good team building effort.
i think 2011 sends a false positive echoing down the halls of Giant leadership...and that is if we stay close then we can win by going on a hot streak. thats not a plan.
[/quote
Agree with this totally. The 2007 team was part of a continuum from 2005-2008 where the combined record was 41-23; they were a top franchise in the NFL that was only waiting for Eli to finally mature in the 2008 playoffs to become fully formed.
The 2011 team, however, was a collection of players who were never quite as good as they were either before or after that season due to injuries, lack of skill, or dumb luck...and even then they barely made the playoffs. They actually remind me very much of the 2002 USA men's world cup soccer team.
After 2011, the Giants FO never seemed to have a plan to build a dominant team, instead they tried to conduct patchwork every year to build a "just good enough to get in" team.
Flowers Schwartz Walton Pugh Richburg Beatty were all big disappointments
Quote:
The drafts really dropped off after this smug asshole got hired..
This. Ross was the beginning of Reese’s downfall.
Drafts went downhill after his hire and he was focusing more on other GM stuff unrealted to the draft after the round 1 picks
The dysfunction is higher up than Reese and Ross.
Don't get me wrong, Mcadoo's offense had a lot of problems, not the least of which was his playcalling and run/pass balance. It was the wrong cure for flawed diagnosis (we had a talent problem, not a scheme problem). But it did help Eli improve in some ways despite the talent declining around him. Whether or not it was the best use of his talents in combination with the personnel around him is a multi-dimensional question, but in terms of results there was a mixed bag of good and bad (higher completion %, more yards, less big plays, less interceptions).
EVERYTHING starts with the draft
Our draft picks have been bad and when they had a chance to be good they had injuries and
We arnt talking your normal run of the mill injuries.
Over the last 10 years we only have 3 1st round picks still on the team.
'08 Kenny Phillips - OK safety not worth 1st RD pick
'09 Hakeem Nick's - Very good WR who only had a couple good years before injury derailed his career
'10 JPP - Blew his hand off
'11 Prince - An Ok CB whose time here was short
'12 Dave Wilson - freak neck issue
'13 Justin Pugh - a average to below average OL
'14 OBJ - HOF skill and production... when he isnt injured
'15 Eric Flowers - bust
'16 Eli Apple - bust
'17 Even Ingram - shows potential but has had injuries
'18 Barkley - HOF rookie year... will he be the 1 Giants picked in the last 10 years that can avoid the injury bug?
You can not draft poorly AND have bad luck for 10 years and expect to field a competitive team
JPP + the major core remaining from the 2004-2007 team build was enough to squeeze out another title in 2011. Once the 2013 draft rolled around, the Giants tried to build up the OL & misfired on picks.
Another huge issue is Eli’s cap number in addition to his aging.
Wilson, Pugh, Richburg, Flowers Apple were all need pucks more than BPA imo. Didn’t work out
I think that it’s everything after the first round where there ineptitude hurt them.
David Wilson? He was turning the corner if not for the neck injury.
The biggest mistake was firing TC over Reese.
The even bigger issue still exists, and that's the owners.
It’s all on him as far as I’m concerned and i don’t need to even go into any Eli conspiracy crap. He signs off on a rebuild 14-15 then wacks coughlin. Hires his own guy in mcadoo, puts the GM on notice then allows for big spending. Wrong plan there Johnny. You let the young HC build his own team at a long view pace and don’t foster an environment where the GM is desperate and saddled with a HC he didn’t even hire.
That was a mistake but obviously wouldn't have headed off the downward spiral post super bowl 46.
At the end of the day Reese inherited several core strengths of the connective tissue of both SB rosters - Coughlin, Eli, pass rush (Osi + Tuck in particular), and the core of the OL. Those elements weren't always consistent or dominant but they came up big in big games.
Reese certainly deserves credit for helping draft those guys in the first place before he was GM, and his pick of JPP was as big of reason for the improbable SB 46 win as anyone, but overall his regime oversaw the deterioration of those units because they were unable to replace the guys he'd inherited when they moved on.
Remains to be seen - he had a mixed first offseason but he had the best draft we've seen in a while and his focus in the trenches was a lot better. I'm curious to see what he does this year (and how it plays out on the field).
The Giants have not been run well, and Mara's the guy running it. If he were an employee, he'd have been fired with Reese. But since he's (half) owner, he can fire the other guys.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I'm not counting on it.
He never met an undersized speedy CB or talented WR he wouldn't pick instead of a solid OL or DL player.
And just didn't understand the function of LBs whatsoever.
Ironic, because wasn't JR a LB himself?
In the end it seemed he had little idea what a football player was.
My favorite example of his bias was that even his best draft pick - OBJ - was a mistake. He should have drafted Aaron Donald at that slot, because DL are more impactful than WR...
Just a bad football "vision" or philosophy. Combined with poor talent evaluation on the OL particularly.
I mean the Giants drafted more WR and skills guys than any other team in the league by far. And for OL they tagged James Brewer, a dreadful misfit who couldn't block a lick.
I mean the Giants drafted more WR and skills guys than any other team in the league by far. And for OL they tagged James Brewer, a dreadful misfit who couldn't block a lick.
It aligns with his basketball on grass philosophy. Get the ball into the hands of the playmakers and stops said playmakers. The trenches are just undervalued.
And Brewer? Our most lasting memory of him is cuddling a teddy bear. A NY Football Giants OLineman cuddling a teddy bear...
If you haven't listened to the Evan Silva podcast from a few days ago (Big Blue Bubble Boy), listen to it. I'm sure it overstates Mike Francesa's influence, but the points hold. It's a good summary of why the Giants are where they are.
I won't argue that Eli was paid too much. But, mismanaging the OL is a far greater sin in my opinion. A solid OL can cover many other sins.
And once he knew Eli was the problem, he was fired for it. Even though you guys were littered with injuries in 2017, he was fired after going 2-10.
The Giants finished the 2016 season with an 11–5 record under McAdoo, tying the franchise record held by Dan Reeves for most regular season wins by a first year head coach. The Giants returned to the playoffs for the first time since 2011, but lost to the Green Bay Packers 38–13.
How you fire a coach that quick, is crazy. Whether you like him or not? He didn't deserve that & had the balls to replace Eli.
He knew what needed to be done. Unfortunately, he doesn't own the team.
I do think we're worse now at head coach than we were. Certainly on Sundays.
It started with some bad luck - players who were injured or had careers shortened due to injury that necessitated refilling those positions that should have been staffed for longer (Snee, Nicks, Phillips, Wilson, Cruz - we won't mention TThomas since he was an injury risk from college).
They definitely waited too long for OL - they left in veterans like Snee, O'Hara and Diehl well past their primes. When they did focus on the OL, they spent resources in both FA and in the draft, and missed badly.
It seemed like the FO and coaching staff didn't share a vision for the team and routinely ended up trying to wedge square pegs into round holes.
When it was time for a house cleaning - the whole thing was botched. Instead, TC was let go, and there was an aborted coaching staff search when they feared that McAdoo might jump ship. They would have been better suited to clean house entirely.
And when Reese and McAdoo went - they practically stayed in house again for the GM hire, bringing back Gettleman and leaving the scouting staff intact. I'm always amazed at how little turnover there was in the FO/scouting dept - literally two positions - and that people are surprised that the team is still doing poorly.
It was a cascade of errors, and a panicking team wildly spinning the steering wheel of the bus while it careened across a patch of ice. Each mistake trying to compensate for the last, trying to patch in one place and ending up only making more holes. That direction seems to have been coming from the top, and it doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.