… according to the site:
"Ourlads’ Guide to the NFL Draft is the only source that gives the number for the quarterback’s velocity at the NFL Combine. Velocity is measured by a radar gun in miles per hour."
Interesting look across the years, including the most recently concluded Combine.
I don't know what to make of this, but according to the chart, Dwayne Haskins exhibited the same velocity as Kyle Lauletta!
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Even if it really does matter, this test isn't even done in game conditions. If it matters, they're not testing it like it really matters.
*as Lauletta
You also need to be able to dial it back when needed as well.
There is a little value to that data point, but it certainly isn't the biggest indicator of success.
Quick release and decision making and anticipation all surpass arm strength. As long as you can throw an out to the opposite hash your fine
Anyone that watched the drills realizes the Haskins, Locke, and Jackson have plenty of arm strength. The ball jumped out of Haskins hand in particular.
.McL. : 7:15 am : link : reply
to downplay this...
Hilarious
It is a Haskins apologist thing?? Velocity is one of the most negligible measureables for QB's.
As an analytics guy, look at the distribution of QB ranks and their velocities. There isn't a correlation to be made. In fact, some of the hardest throwers end up statistically being among the lowest rated QB's.
Odd to call something "scrambling" when it doesn't even meet the standard for evaluating a QB
Anyone that watched the drills realizes the Haskins, Locke, and Jackson have plenty of arm strength. The ball jumped out of Haskins hand in particular.
this was my thought as well.
Unless they are asking the QB to throw the ball as fast as possible in the drill they used, its not really an accurate measure
Anyone that watched the drills realizes the Haskins, Locke, and Jackson have plenty of arm strength. The ball jumped out of Haskins hand in particular.
First thing I did was look at Tyree Jackson for the exact reason you mentioned.
I'm usually all over this velocity stuff, but the numbers just don't match the eye test.
Same as Lauletta? Cmon. - ( New Window )
Yeah. Another thing about Grier - while playing with a weak offensive line, he put up very similar numbers to Haskins who played with a strong o-line. Haskins had an overall rating of 175.8 to Grier's 175.5.
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Isn't arm strength a major knock on him? On the other hand, velocity may not be an ideal metric.
Yeah. Another thing about Grier - while playing with a weak offensive line, he put up very similar numbers to Haskins who played with a strong o-line. Haskins had an overall rating of 175.8 to Grier's 175.5.
If that's how you want to compare Quarterback production, fine, but then also take into account the teams each QB played. It's not an equal comparison.
Hilarious
Silly, and childish post from someone who is usually an otherwise solid contributor.
Is there a correlation between velocity and QB efficiency? If not, why do Haskins' "apologists" need to downplay it?
Let's just look at 2017.
Davis Webb is at the very top of the list, DeShaun Watson is at the very bottom.
I know which guy I'm taking...
His velocity was even lower than Haskins' at the combine.
Josh Allen throws really hard. Who cares - he barely completes half the passes he throws in a landscape where 40 year olds are @ 70%. It has never been easier to post a high completion percentage in this league - but there's Josh Allen playing heads or tails with each throw.
He sure throws hard, though!
Again, the biggest surprise there is Grier, I thought for sure he'd be in the low 50's. Putting up 59 mph after measuring at 6'2" 217 and a 4.84 forty with decent hand size makes him a super interesting prospect if someone can get his mechanics right.
what's important is accuracy - finding guys who can make the simple throw over and over again in game scenarios. Lead guys into daylight etc. If they have that AND they have a cannon - like a Mahomes or Rodgers - then you've got a legend.
Well, it's tough to say, but it is interesting data that raises my eyebrows a bit. Aside from ones not on this list (Brees, Brady, Manning, etc) on average the starters and fringe starters that are listed for the most part have a velocity of 55 and above. The only starters listed that don't: Watson (45!), Jackson, Trubisky. My opinion, but I would not consider any of these 3 world beating QBs.
Of the ones in my mind that I could see hoisting a tropy (on the list that actually threw - not all of them did)
Mahomes
Mayfield
Goff
Wentz
Mariota
Foles
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
All threw above 55.
What does it mean? Nada. Still, it is somewhat compelling, to me anyway.
Here are all the hardest throwers...
Josh Allen
Davis Webb
Paxton Lynch
Bryan Bennett
Logan Thomas
Tyler Bray
Brandon Weeden
Colin Kaepernick
John Parker Wilson
Paul Smith
Outside of Josh Allen who only has a year under his belt... what are we missing here?
Kaepernick is the only guy on this list who did anything as an NFL QB - and most of it was with his legs.
For the past 5-6 years MPH has become another statistic used to evaluate QBs. (Especially major discrepancies in MPH L/R)
There is a sweet spot in the mid fifties. Anyone who throws above mid fifties is exceptional and conversely anyone below 49 MPH is suspect. Teams who typically play in inclement weather are far less likely to draft a QB with marginal arm speed.The NFL has other throwing metrics that are not normally publicized. Each team will time the release of ball, in three step, five step, drops. They will also document time in air for long throws.This information is part of the analysis, much like 9" hands.
There are two players in recent drafts that are outliers.
Lamar Jackson, and Deshaun Watson. They both threw below 50 MPH and were downgraded by many teams. Their lack of velocity is made up by anticipation and their ability to throw on the run. Both have issues with certain throws which are not part of their arsenal.
Mayfield on the other hand was upgraded significantly when the teams were impressed by his MPH, and the tight spiral he threw. Mayfield demon started that he could make all the throws.
As for this years class. I would be concerned about Haskins, his MPH for a pocket passer is marginal.The MPH is used to see if the QB can make certain throws, i.e. outs, and tight window throws.
Grier's velocity is shocking as it does not show up in his game. I think that teams will take a second look at Grier much like a receiver who unexpectedly runs a 4.4 forty. One thing that I noticed in Grier's game is that he is frenetic and does not set his feet. Perhaps that can be coached.
It is also instructional to note that Rosen displays more than enough velocity and it shows in his game.
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LOL, now all the Haskins lovers/apologists are scrambling
.McL. : 7:15 am : link : reply
to downplay this...
Hilarious
It is a Haskins apologist thing?? Velocity is one of the most negligible measureables for QB's.
As an analytics guy, look at the distribution of QB ranks and their velocities. There isn't a correlation to be made. In fact, some of the hardest throwers end up statistically being among the lowest rated QB's.
Odd to call something "scrambling" when it doesn't even meet the standard for evaluating a QB
I am not arguing the point here...
Though I will say that a pocket passer with a weakish arm has a lot more to overcome, than mobile guy with a weakish arm. But anticipation and accuracy can help a lot.
But, the apologists feel the need to make tons of excuses.
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to downplay this...
Hilarious
Silly, and childish post from someone who is usually an otherwise solid contributor.
Is there a correlation between velocity and QB efficiency? If not, why do Haskins' "apologists" need to downplay it?
Let's just look at 2017.
Davis Webb is at the very top of the list, DeShaun Watson is at the very bottom.
I know which guy I'm taking...
As I said above, I don't necessarily put a lot stock in arm strength, its the total package. But even when I first posted, the folks who are all in on Haskins were the first ones posting about how unimportant arm strength is. It would be interesting to see if their past comments on Lauletta are consistent with their current comments on Haskins regarding arm strength.
I have made my position clear. I don't think Haskins is worth the #6, not because of arm strength, not because of lack of mobility, but because of the lack of tape, and more specifically the lack of tape of him under stress.
I just think it's pretty funny that immediately the pro-Haskins posters felt the need to be all over this as not a big deal.
Hilarious
Do you see any correlation with these #s and NFL ability?
Better question: do you see any correlation between these #s and actual throwing arm strength?
Because there isn't any. Like zero. Some guys are winging the ball hard (and inaccurately, re Grier IIRC) and others effortlessly aiming their throws.
The game tape is much much better than these #s, that's pretty clear. Get real. Your brighter than BS comments like this one.
At least, I thought you are.
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to downplay this...
Hilarious
Do you see any correlation with these #s and NFL ability?
Better question: do you see any correlation between these #s and actual throwing arm strength?
Because there isn't any. Like zero. Some guys are winging the ball hard (and inaccurately, re Grier IIRC) and others effortlessly aiming their throws.
The game tape is much much better than these #s, that's pretty clear. Get real. Your brighter than BS comments like this one.
At least, I thought you are.
Did you read my other comments?
Don't conflate me finding humor in certain poster's reactions with me believing arm strength is all that important.
Earlier there was a thread where somebody posted "catchable ball" stats for various players, and the Haskins lovers were all over it saying that those down on Haskins don't understand anything about QBs. Those stats are even more meaningless than arm strength. When you have a small sample size, against generally weaker competition, and overall very little pressure, its not hard to put up good numbers in that stat. Context matters.
Is it so off to find irony and humor in the fact that the Haskins lovers were touting one meaningless stat, but immediately pointing out that another out of context stat is meaningless?
Absolutely
Ok, what would you call the group of posters that really really want to draft Haskins at #6?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
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In comment 14325615 .McL. said:
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to downplay this...
Hilarious
Silly, and childish post from someone who is usually an otherwise solid contributor.
Is there a correlation between velocity and QB efficiency? If not, why do Haskins' "apologists" need to downplay it?
Let's just look at 2017.
Davis Webb is at the very top of the list, DeShaun Watson is at the very bottom.
I know which guy I'm taking...
As I said above, I don't necessarily put a lot stock in arm strength, its the total package. But even when I first posted, the folks who are all in on Haskins were the first ones posting about how unimportant arm strength is. It would be interesting to see if their past comments on Lauletta are consistent with their current comments on Haskins regarding arm strength.
I have made my position clear. I don't think Haskins is worth the #6, not because of arm strength, not because of lack of mobility, but because of the lack of tape, and more specifically the lack of tape of him under stress.
I just think it's pretty funny that immediately the pro-Haskins posters felt the need to be all over this as not a big deal.
Or maybe people are just pointing out that it isn't a big deal because it isn't a big deal and it has nothing to do with Haskins?
Where's the correlation between velocity and success in the NFL level? There does not appear to be one. So, is that not okay to point out? It has nothing to do with any QB in this draft. It just appears to be a pointless measure that is not in any way a predictor of success at the next level.
Not sure who the "Haskins lovers" are, anyway.
How much do I really love Haskins when my ideal scenario actually involves trading for Josh Rosen and drafting an ER instead?
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more irony in calling people "Haskins lovers" or really hyperbole like that regarding any player.
Ok, what would you call the group of posters that really really want to draft Haskins at #6?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
How about ABES?
Anybody But Eli Supporters?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
Do you want to be defined derisively for a preference on whom to draft?
It isn't like you have a mass of people ready to set themselves on fire of we don't pick a certain guy
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In comment 14327111 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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more irony in calling people "Haskins lovers" or really hyperbole like that regarding any player.
Ok, what would you call the group of posters that really really want to draft Haskins at #6?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
How about ABES?
Anybody But Eli Supporters?
LOL, that's probably true, I like that...
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Ok, what would you call the group of posters that really really want to draft Haskins at #6?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
Do you want to be defined derisively for a preference on whom to draft?
It isn't like you have a mass of people ready to set themselves on fire of we don't pick a certain guy
I thought about it when JR bypassed Aaron Donald...
But I can't stand the smell of burning human hair.
Someone just has an agenda and is desperate to tag a swath of posters with a very unimaginative tag because, well... it's so funny! Derp.
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Ok, what would you call the group of posters that really really want to draft Haskins at #6?
I will be happy to refer to that group as that...
Do you want to be defined derisively for a preference on whom to draft?
It isn't like you have a mass of people ready to set themselves on fire of we don't pick a certain guy
Talk about hyperbole... Set themselves on fire?
You don't think there is a mass of people who WILL melt down if we don't draft a QB, and that most of those who will melt down are pointing to Haskins at this point.
I get your overall point - but I don't think this is really a great measure of actual NFL arm strength.
I can't recall anyone saying that Mitch Trubisky or DeShaun Watson's arms looked "weak" at any point in their early careers and I don't even remember that being a knock on either guy coming out of UNC or CLEM.
With Lauletta, you can see it - the ball floats. He doesn't drive it the same way.
It's one of those measures that just doesn't really jibe with what you see on the field, so it seems the correlation is just super loose and not really there.
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... people were killing the Lauletta pick all day long for lack of arm strength. Actually people still kill Lauletta all day long for lack of arm strength. And then it turns out he throws with the same velocity as Haskins.... lol
I get your overall point - but I don't think this is really a great measure of actual NFL arm strength.
I can't recall anyone saying that Mitch Trubisky or DeShaun Watson's arms looked "weak" at any point in their early careers and I don't even remember that being a knock on either guy coming out of UNC or CLEM.
With Lauletta, you can see it - the ball floats. He doesn't drive it the same way.
It's one of those measures that just doesn't really jibe with what you see on the field, so it seems the correlation is just super loose and not really there.
I agree. Lauletta's long ball looks like a helium balloon. That's what makes it funny.
is useless.
Vs its use in baseball where the pitchers throw from +/- the same spot on the mound to the same general area in space at the plate, repeatedly.
Those velocities cited only randomly coincide with scouts (an our own) repeated observations about relative arm strength.
Lock has a gun - everyone sees it and has reported it - but he throws the same velocity as Lauletta who was widely criticized as lacking arm strength?
Uh huh?
Radar gun measurements as reported mean pooh.
It's also not definitive. Watch lauletta throw a strong ball, and he has to put a lot of effort into it. I'm not a haskins fan, but he looks very natural when he needs to make long or sharp throws.