I just don't get emotional about sports anymore. Too many other things to worry about. But I always get analytical. I try to understand why things happen, why they are done, what are the people behind the scenes thinking?
And I never think that what the management says in public is reliable. I believe their actions tell you what they think better than their words.
So what to make of this trade?
To make sense of this trade for me I feel I need to first make sense of what the Giants did in the first year of DG's leadership.
They drafted a RB with the #2 pick, they bolstered the line and defense, they did thinngs that told you even though we have a 38 year old QB, a depleted roster, we believe we can win now. Many on this board believed that and felt by adding Barkley it would supercharge the offense. This approach failed and by late in the season the Giants started offloadng pieces.
I think many here warned that drafting a rb in the giants' state was a poor use of resources. Barnwell today says, "The Giants used the second overall pick on running back Saquon Barkley, ignoring the simple concept of positional scarcity and passing on impactful players at more important positions such as Sam Darnold, Denzel Ward and Bradley Chubb." in his takedown of DG's actions:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26243093/grading-odell-beckham-jr-trade-giants-browns-won
He is totally correct although folks here may not want to admit it but the front page headline is needlessly provocative. It says "Grading the OBJ trade: Sorry, Giants fans -- this is inexplicable". Actually it is totally explicable.
The Giants have admitted here that what they did last year was a total mistake, I think. Now they are going to start the tear down they should have done last year. They tried to sneak another run in. But it failed. This is the explanation that explains DG's actions best. If this is not the explanation then he is a total moron. I argued he was a total moron last year when he said and acted like they could contend. But at least now he is behaving rationally (so far) by tearing it down, finally. Though I am still unconvinced he is the man for the job. I do generally agree with one thing though. Horrible teams with glitzy #1 WRs usually stay horrible. Maybe it would have been different if the Giants had finally picked Eli's successor in 2018. Maybe Darnold or whoever would have clicked with Odell and we could have seen the future a little bit. But with an aging and now inadequate QB, we can't see the future at all.
Some on this board said they didn't want to draft a QB in 2018 because they didn't want to wait five years to compete. They were wrong on two counts. One, it doesn't have to take 5 years to rebuild with a new QB. Two, in fact, we wasted more time, putting off for a year the inevitable rebuild the Giants were going to have to do.
I have said elsewhere the Giants are rudderless. Maybe they are not entirely rudderless. Maybe it is the drastic change of direction that makes it seem that way. The ship was first jerked toward contending with this team, then dramatically jerked in a totally different direction, ground up rebuild. This may explain why they look rudderless. And why so many fans are so upset.
A full team reset is not a bad idea at all, but there is a ton off pressure on this draft and who will be the QB going forward. Ill sit back and give it time to unfold to see if they were right in making this trade.
yes. I agree with you. That's a totally fair evaluation.
A full team reset is not a bad idea at all, but there is a ton off pressure on this draft and who will be the QB going forward. Ill sit back and give it time to unfold to see if they were right in making this trade.
we have no choice but to sit back and watch it unfold. I will do the same and hope they figure it out quickly.
We at least you don't have to put up with writers and fans on forums telling you that you suck at your job.
In fact it seems that last year was the opening salvo of a salvage operation... I don't know what signs the team regrets any of the decisions made last year? It looks like they're doubling down.
A full team reset is not a bad idea at all, but there is a ton off pressure on this draft and who will be the QB going forward. Ill sit back and give it time to unfold to see if they were right in making this trade.
Fair and on point, per usual. 👍🏿👍
I am also not that convinced that DG actually believed the team was a contender last year. It may have been no more than a feign to further evaluate players under pressure.
Odell is gone. Ok let's see what you got.
As much as Barkley excites me on the field it is just a poor use of resources to pick a rb at 2 when a team has desperate needs. A star RB can be easily replaced by average rbs. Don't believe me? Look at the team rushing stats. The Giants finished 24th in rushing offense. The Pats had a better rushing attack, and won the super bowl, with average talent at the position.
Then add a year onto Eli's age.
Then factor in the salary cap mess that was introduced, between paying Beckham then shipping him out, or by signing guys like Solder and Omameh, who everyone knew were not going to be even solid parts in a team ready to compete but marginal upgrades over the crap we already had, and giving them big money.
The team has made massive strides backward. But they've got a great talent at RB - just nobody to play the most important position on offense.
It's a bleak situation, no matter how you try to slice it. They're not in good shape now, they won't be in good shape for 3-4 years at least, and that's if they had someone competent running the show.
Then add a year onto Eli's age.
Then factor in the salary cap mess that was introduced, between paying Beckham then shipping him out, or by signing guys like Solder and Omameh, who everyone knew were not going to be even solid parts in a team ready to compete but marginal upgrades over the crap we already had, and giving them big money.
The team has made massive strides backward. But they've got a great talent at RB - just nobody to play the most important position on offense.
It's a bleak situation, no matter how you try to slice it. They're not in good shape now, they won't be in good shape for 3-4 years at least, and that's if they had someone competent running the show.
I generally agree. by the way, it's not just the most important position on offense, it's the most important position in professional sports. How many super bowls does Tom Brady have to win to convince us of that?
I am not arguing wihtyou that may be we might be successful but what you are missing is that
1-- WHat makes you think you can run the ball now when teams will undoubtedly "stack-the-box?"
2-- You say you can do play action? Eli is declining. WHat other QB's you got? Yo think it's so simple? You need a good QB to execute play action.
3-- Tell me why you think over at least next few years at best we aren't the Detroit Lions with Barry Sanders that went nowhere?
They changed out more of the roster last year than I've seen in a long time. Changed out the entire Coaching staff. Changed the defensive philosophy from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Has any team won it all after all the changes the Giants made last year?
They are building towards the future. They started building towards the future the second Gettleman took over. It will not be a 2 year rebuild. It's a 3-5 year rebuild. I don't know about everyone else but I'm good with that. I don't want to wait 20 years for the next serious contender team. I'll be much happier waiting 5 years.
Strap in folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
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Barkley was the right pick! This trade shows you they are going back to running the ball and play action. This BS about the franchise QB they took the best player.
As much as Barkley excites me on the field it is just a poor use of resources to pick a rb at 2 when a team has desperate needs. A star RB can be easily replaced by average rbs. Don't believe me? Look at the team rushing stats. The Giants finished 24th in rushing offense. The Pats had a better rushing attack, and won the super bowl, with average talent at the position.
Drafting the best player in the draft is never a bad strategy. Barkley is a weapon running the ball and in the passing game. If they looked at Darnold and Rosen and thought those guys arent elite talents, then you simply cant spend the second overall pick on them.
Fans have to stop looking at that draft as Top RB vs. Top QB. You evaluate the player first, the position second. If they are close you take the QB. Everyone is assuming it was close.
Then add a year onto Eli's age.
Then factor in the salary cap mess that was introduced, between paying Beckham then shipping him out, or by signing guys like Solder and Omameh, who everyone knew were not going to be even solid parts in a team ready to compete but marginal upgrades over the crap we already had, and giving them big money.
The team has made massive strides backward. But they've got a great talent at RB - just nobody to play the most important position on offense.
It's a bleak situation, no matter how you try to slice it. They're not in good shape now, they won't be in good shape for 3-4 years at least, and that's if they had someone competent running the show.
If they can get at least very good QB (or elite) they'll be fine. They need one either this year or next.
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Barkley was the right pick! This trade shows you they are going back to running the ball and play action. This BS about the franchise QB they took the best player.
I am not arguing wihtyou that may be we might be successful but what you are missing is that
1-- WHat makes you think you can run the ball now when teams will undoubtedly "stack-the-box?"
Barkley played against 8 in the box all year and definitely the last 4 games when Odell was out. Also, in those last 4 games Engram started raking. Now with Zeitler and almost definitely a better RT than Wheeler and Flowers coming, once Barkley gets past the "8", he will have more than the 7 50 yard gains he had last year.
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In comment 14330741 The 12th Man said:
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Barkley was the right pick! This trade shows you they are going back to running the ball and play action. This BS about the franchise QB they took the best player.
As much as Barkley excites me on the field it is just a poor use of resources to pick a rb at 2 when a team has desperate needs. A star RB can be easily replaced by average rbs. Don't believe me? Look at the team rushing stats. The Giants finished 24th in rushing offense. The Pats had a better rushing attack, and won the super bowl, with average talent at the position.
Drafting the best player in the draft is never a bad strategy. Barkley is a weapon running the ball and in the passing game. If they looked at Darnold and Rosen and thought those guys arent elite talents, then you simply cant spend the second overall pick on them.
Fans have to stop looking at that draft as Top RB vs. Top QB. You evaluate the player first, the position second. If they are close you take the QB. Everyone is assuming it was close.
I just don't see the value of adding a RB at that draft slot, and many others agree. As good as Barkley is, you can get similar production from two decent backs. It is just a fact. If they didn't like the QB's they could have traded down and gotten a real haul. that's my opinion. it will never change. there are too many examples of great rbs burning out and other players surpassing them in career value - hello Chris Johnson.
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In comment 14330741 The 12th Man said:
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Barkley was the right pick! This trade shows you they are going back to running the ball and play action. This BS about the franchise QB they took the best player.
As much as Barkley excites me on the field it is just a poor use of resources to pick a rb at 2 when a team has desperate needs. A star RB can be easily replaced by average rbs. Don't believe me? Look at the team rushing stats. The Giants finished 24th in rushing offense. The Pats had a better rushing attack, and won the super bowl, with average talent at the position.
Drafting the best player in the draft is never a bad strategy. Barkley is a weapon running the ball and in the passing game. If they looked at Darnold and Rosen and thought those guys arent elite talents, then you simply cant spend the second overall pick on them.
Fans have to stop looking at that draft as Top RB vs. Top QB. You evaluate the player first, the position second. If they are close you take the QB. Everyone is assuming it was close.
No you have to stop looking at you "evaluate the player 1st and the position 2nd."Your way you'll never get a top QB in the 1st 5 picks. Your theory is flawed. Cleveland would have passed on Mayfield.
With that said it is possible SB draft will be fine if GMEn can get a very good QB. But the problem with your view is the problem that the GMEn will continually have in that you'll always find an excuse to not draft a high-pick QB and settle for a late 1st rounder or later round guy. It ofc might work out but you're essentially closed out from getting top guy because teams will always move ahead ofyou.
What some of you don't understand is that QB's taken top team or so are not "value picks." You are placing the priority on"QB" vs "any other position" including RB.
No you have to stop looking at you "evaluate the player 1st and the position 2nd."Your way you'll never get a top QB in the 1st 5 picks. Your theory is flawed. Cleveland would have passed on Mayfield.
With that said it is possible SB draft will be fine if GMEn can get a very good QB. But the problem with your view is the problem that the GMEn will continually have in that you'll always find an excuse to not draft a high-pick QB and settle for a late 1st rounder or later round guy. It ofc might work out but you're essentially closed out from getting top guy because teams will always move ahead ofyou.
What some of you don't understand is that QB's taken top team or so are not "value picks." You are placing the priority on"QB" vs "any other position" including RB.
English, please?
They changed out more of the roster last year than I've seen in a long time. Changed out the entire Coaching staff. Changed the defensive philosophy from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Has any team won it all after all the changes the Giants made last year?
They are building towards the future. They started building towards the future the second Gettleman took over. It will not be a 2 year rebuild. It's a 3-5 year rebuild. I don't know about everyone else but I'm good with that. I don't want to wait 20 years for the next serious contender team. I'll be much happier waiting 5 years.
Strap in folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Agreed. I never believed last year was a win now with all of the turnover.
This is a three year process and the fans should get ready for more changes this year and next spring.
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In comment 14330741 The 12th Man said:
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Barkley was the right pick! This trade shows you they are going back to running the ball and play action. This BS about the franchise QB they took the best player.
I am not arguing wihtyou that may be we might be successful but what you are missing is that
1-- WHat makes you think you can run the ball now when teams will undoubtedly "stack-the-box?"
Barkley played against 8 in the box all year and definitely the last 4 games when Odell was out. Also, in those last 4 games Engram started raking. Now with Zeitler and almost definitely a better RT than Wheeler and Flowers coming, once Barkley gets past the "8", he will have more than the 7 50 yard gains he had last year.
If you think the end of last year is any indication of anything to come we can agree to disagree.
and how much did we hear before starting last year that we had so much more talent on the OLINE than the prior year? How did that work out?
Bottomline is that if you think we can run consistently well with 8 defenders in the box I think your nuts. I think you caught the end of the year fever that was nothing more than a mirage.
And Eli is not getting better. he is declining. Sure overall he won't be pathetic like the 1st 8 games but those defenses are going to challenge him to beat them for an entire season. And throughout the season he WILL decline overall.
Third the closer you get to .500 the harder it will be to get a QB.
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the Giants did anything last year to "win now".
They changed out more of the roster last year than I've seen in a long time. Changed out the entire Coaching staff. Changed the defensive philosophy from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Has any team won it all after all the changes the Giants made last year?
They are building towards the future. They started building towards the future the second Gettleman took over. It will not be a 2 year rebuild. It's a 3-5 year rebuild. I don't know about everyone else but I'm good with that. I don't want to wait 20 years for the next serious contender team. I'll be much happier waiting 5 years.
Strap in folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Agreed. I never believed last year was a win now with all of the turnover.
This is a three year process and the fans should get ready for more changes this year and next spring.
OFC it was a win now. Your in denial.
Please explain how SOldier and Ogeltree weren;t win now type of guys?
WHy not trade OBJ?
The GM was QUOTED QUOTED QUOTED as saying they were in a win now yet you want to bury your head in the sand on that?
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No you have to stop looking at you "evaluate the player 1st and the position 2nd."Your way you'll never get a top QB in the 1st 5 picks. Your theory is flawed. Cleveland would have passed on Mayfield.
With that said it is possible SB draft will be fine if GMEn can get a very good QB. But the problem with your view is the problem that the GMEn will continually have in that you'll always find an excuse to not draft a high-pick QB and settle for a late 1st rounder or later round guy. It ofc might work out but you're essentially closed out from getting top guy because teams will always move ahead ofyou.
What some of you don't understand is that QB's taken top team or so are not "value picks." You are placing the priority on"QB" vs "any other position" including RB.
English, please?
Weren;t you the guy that mouthed off last year assuring me and others that Haskins wasn't coming out because of a tweet?
We know these clowns have no foresight, no plan whatsoever. Knowing them, they will probably trade the first rounders to move up for a QB and still go all in for this year.
The play should be to draft a stud at 6th, and parlay the 17th and other picks into more picks in the 2020 draft.
If DG and PS looked at Darnold and said this guys ceiling is Ryan Tannehill under your approach you would spend the #2 pick on him since you need a QB and he is the best available.
If they rated Barkley the best player in the draft and Darnold a close second, I would have taken Darnold. But that assumes that is how they rated Darnold and there is simply no evidence to support that.
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In comment 14330823 USAF NYG Fan said:
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the Giants did anything last year to "win now".
They changed out more of the roster last year than I've seen in a long time. Changed out the entire Coaching staff. Changed the defensive philosophy from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Has any team won it all after all the changes the Giants made last year?
They are building towards the future. They started building towards the future the second Gettleman took over. It will not be a 2 year rebuild. It's a 3-5 year rebuild. I don't know about everyone else but I'm good with that. I don't want to wait 20 years for the next serious contender team. I'll be much happier waiting 5 years.
Strap in folks. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Agreed. I never believed last year was a win now with all of the turnover.
This is a three year process and the fans should get ready for more changes this year and next spring.
OFC it was a win now. Your in denial.
Please explain how SOldier and Ogeltree weren;t win now type of guys?
WHy not trade OBJ?
The GM was QUOTED QUOTED QUOTED as saying they were in a win now yet you want to bury your head in the sand on that?
What about that one time they cut half the time a week and a half before Jacksonsville?
People want to die on this hill and i do not get it. The only argument for a win now was the comments made last spring. AFTER they spent a whole summer with the roster, they dumped it. They thought so highly of the roster, they dumped half of it.
Why didn't they cut a bunch of big contracts like some of you ask? Because they recognized some of those guys had value, and it made more sense to hold them and then trade them.
Whether you're rebuilding or not, you need a left tackle.
What the fuck was so win now about acquiring Alec Ogletree? They took a chance on a 26 now 27 year old linebacker because the group was disgustingly bare. If you wanna criticize the move i get that, but that is a deal that made total sense.
With that said -
Fans are pissed and they should be. When it comes out that Benny Mcadoo was JR's third choice but Mara's first, i'm sorry, that is an embarrassment. There is evidence no fan can ignore of ownership being too involved. "Mara and Gettleman wanted Odell gone, Tisch didn't"
Start letting the people you hired do the job. I'm not saying JR was a saint, but not letting him pick a HC makes it seem he was already on thin ice.
If he was on thin ice, why wasn't he let go with Coughlin?
I see both sides. I still trust Gettleman, he won before he even touched the Giants franchise. But i'd be a fool to not see ownership needs to back off and trust the people they hired.
Well then the Giants are going to be an incredible team in 1977