I think a lot of us were running pretty hot last night in the immediate aftermath of the trade. Now, having slept on it, anyone change their opinion on this deal?
I'm not as down on it as I first was. Odell's been often injured, he clearly didn't want to be here, & it's not like this team has been crushing it since he got here in '14, though that's obviously not all on him.
I just hope DG has a plan.
Quote:
It’s all going to come down to what he does in the 19 draft.
If he drafts well everyone will forget about this.
Sorry, but we will never "forget" losing the ability to root for one of the most talented and exciting players to ever play the WR position. Even if it makes us a a better team in the long run (which is highly doubtful).
Forget may be the wrong word, but critics will definitely shut the fuck up about it. It’s all about winning and the Giants won jack shit with Beckham. If DG flips this draft capital into foundation players who are part of a consistent winner, history will look kindly on this trade. If he pulls a Reese draft, he’ll be crucified. It’s that simple.
You guys can convince yourself we got a great haul back. You can convince yourself that we’ll get a player at 17 that will sniff his productivity, that the last pick of the third round is a valuable commodity (we couldn’t even get the higher of their two thirds), and that Jabril Peppers is the missing piece our secondary needed since we just let our All-Pro safety walk out the door for zero return.
“Peppers was a first round pick”, you say, as if that makes it the same as getting a first round pick this year. When instead we got a nice player already two years closer to the end of his rookie contract.
The Giants haven’t even updated their website this morning. Their biggest news is still resigning Penny. Take that as a conscious or subconscious expression of how even they know what a shit sandwich this is to swallow.
Now there will be a flood of unsubstantiated rumors about how much of a problem he was behind the scenes, even though he was universally loved by his teammates. We’ll hear that the distractions were too much to deal with, even though they made him the highest paid WR in history half a year before.
The other teams in our division are all celebrating today. The morning after? It’s no better than the night before.
Thank you.
So, labeling him that is... not accurate.
So for a player to be called All-Pro, they need to be All-Pro every year? Okay, got it.
1) We did fuckup massively by signing him to that contract - and left with dead cap because of it
2) We need to cut Eli or those saying we don't have a plan will be dead on
Here are my questions to your points....
1. The cap hit sucks, but its not going to affect our long term goals.... so what haul would we have gotten if we traded him before he signed or franchised him? I am not sure we would get what we did.
2. Cutting Eli now makes MORE sense, but I am not at the point where it needs to be done. Sure we are going to stink either way. But financially we are going to be in great shape after this year. I dont want the Giants to force a QB at 6 or 17 either. So if they dont see a viable option - its still not the end of the world.
People honestly expect him to have been honest and said we’re actively talking to teams about trading him?
Quote:
The "all pro safety" we let walk out the door was an all pro for exactly one season. He was not that in any other season.
So, labeling him that is... not accurate.
So for a player to be called All-Pro, they need to be All-Pro every year? Okay, got it.
I'd say they need to be an all-pro more than once, or at least have been an all-pro in their most recent season.
2016 was 3 years ago now. He just had shoulder surgery and he can't cover. He's a good player. He's not an all-pro player.
I would be willing to bet he never receives that same designation again in his career and that the Redskins defense won't be any better with Collins than they were without him.
Comp picks are high fourths whoppity do
Quote:
1) We did fuckup massively by signing him to that contract - and left with dead cap because of it
2) We need to cut Eli or those saying we don't have a plan will be dead on
Here are my questions to your points....
1. The cap hit sucks, but its not going to affect our long term goals.... so what haul would we have gotten if we traded him before he signed or franchised him? I am not sure we would get what we did.
2. Cutting Eli now makes MORE sense, but I am not at the point where it needs to be done. Sure we are going to stink either way. But financially we are going to be in great shape after this year. I dont want the Giants to force a QB at 6 or 17 either. So if they dont see a viable option - its still not the end of the world.
Let’s assume Eli wants to play. He’s not dumb. He knows this team is going to suck moose cock this year. Make the year all about him. Sure he’ll take his sub .500 career record with him and throw himself at the mercy of the HOF voters, but every Sunday in 2019 will be all about him.
Quote:
We may also still get a comp pick for Collins - one better than we were ever offered in a trade. So, there's that part too.
Comp picks are high fourths whoppity do
And if you believe Stapleton - that's as good as we were getting for Collins via trade.
Whoppity do!
Quote:
The "all pro safety" we let walk out the door was an all pro for exactly one season. He was not that in any other season.
So, labeling him that is... not accurate.
So for a player to be called All-Pro, they need to be All-Pro every year? Okay, got it.
There is a huge difference in how he played in 2016 and how he played the last two years. It became painfully obvious he cannot cover, anything or anyone. He wasn't even getting in on his blitzes anymore. It is also obvious he is really a small LB. Hell we have people who think he is a terrible tackler on this site.
Peppers could easily replace Collins
We got our 4th round pick back
We have two more draft picks
We don’t have to deal with all the drama surrounding OBJ
COREY Coleman time to shine...
It is a fuckup because it was created by us. That's exactly why comments are made, "You don't sign a guy to trade him", because it is simply a drain of millions to do so.
it's time to complete the tear down.
a big reason to keep Eli would be to steady the ship. Considering the yawn of a reaction a couple years ago during the shitshow benching (yeah, a lot of different team mates, but still) I'm not sure he's all that much revered in the locker room. And the locker room went to shit with him there. So I wouldn't pin my hopes on weathering the storm on Eli.
Rip off that band-aid and tank for 2020.
Quote:
In comment 14331121 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The "all pro safety" we let walk out the door was an all pro for exactly one season. He was not that in any other season.
So, labeling him that is... not accurate.
So for a player to be called All-Pro, they need to be All-Pro every year? Okay, got it.
I'd say they need to be an all-pro more than once, or at least have been an all-pro in their most recent season.
2016 was 3 years ago now. He just had shoulder surgery and he can't cover. He's a good player. He's not an all-pro player.
I would be willing to bet he never receives that same designation again in his career and that the Redskins defense won't be any better with Collins than they were without him.
That’s fine. And since we believe all the reports about OBJ being a pain, I’m sure we also believe the reports that there were offers on the table for him last year and we would have gotten something in return. Instead we bank on a comp pick when you know damn well we are going to sign enough players to diminish its value enough to be lower than we could have gotten in a trade.
This is all about asset management, and we suck at it.
I don't see how the return could have reasonably been expected to be much better. He is owed a lot of money and that takes away from his value. While I understand that there is an age difference with Antonio Brown (who is a better player), the Giants did substantially better than the Steelers did in getting a return. Getting a starting defensive player and recouping two high picks is not nothing. If they can turn those picks into starting players, the deal will have been worth it.
Finally, on a more meta-level, I think it is already long overdue for the Giants to move on from the core players of the late Reese/Coughlin era (I would include the two McAdoo years in that era). Virtually everyone agrees that those years were an unmitigated disaster. However, there has seemed to be some real resistance in the fan base to moving on from its core players. What made last offseason so frustrating for some fans who already saw the writing on the wall is that the organization seemed to double down on a core of players that had done nothing but lose for years. Eli came back, they made Beckham the highest paid receiver in league history, they used the second pick in the draft on a luxury position, they gave big money contracts to mediocre free agents, and they traded draft picks for mediocre players. What was the result of all of that? More losing. This team needs a rebuild and it has needed a rebuild for years. My only question today is what took so long for the organization to realize that?
I think we're better at the safety position now than we were a few days ago.
I think we're better at the safety position now than we were a few days ago.
Its not crazy at all...
Jenkins, Beal, and Haley (really liked him at the end of the year.) Bethea, Peppers, and Thomas at safety. Need to get a corner in the draft too.
We are doing good things whether people want to acknowledge it or not.
I think we're better at the safety position now than we were a few days ago.
At the expense of the best WR in franchise history at age 26. Yay!
Use his cap to get a really cheap vet or sign a mobile QB and fortify the rest of the team. We do that, and we'd be in a very good position.
We absolutely have to kill this draft though
Quote:
In comment 14331129 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 14331121 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The "all pro safety" we let walk out the door was an all pro for exactly one season. He was not that in any other season.
So, labeling him that is... not accurate.
So for a player to be called All-Pro, they need to be All-Pro every year? Okay, got it.
I'd say they need to be an all-pro more than once, or at least have been an all-pro in their most recent season.
2016 was 3 years ago now. He just had shoulder surgery and he can't cover. He's a good player. He's not an all-pro player.
I would be willing to bet he never receives that same designation again in his career and that the Redskins defense won't be any better with Collins than they were without him.
That’s fine. And since we believe all the reports about OBJ being a pain, I’m sure we also believe the reports that there were offers on the table for him last year and we would have gotten something in return. Instead we bank on a comp pick when you know damn well we are going to sign enough players to diminish its value enough to be lower than we could have gotten in a trade.
This is all about asset management, and we suck at it.
I actually don't think we're going to sign many players that are going to effect the comp formula - I'm pretty sure Gettleman is making moves with that in mind.
The only mistake is having signed Beckham at all if they could have dealt him sooner.
That assumes we could have gotten more in a trade before, though. The ideal time to trade him would have been after 2016 - but why would we have done it then? 11 win team, defense was top 5 - if anything, the front office was saying "we need to improve on offense"... so, if we think trading Beckham NOW created a shitstorm, imagine what it'd have been like then.
I don't see how the return could have reasonably been expected to be much better. He is owed a lot of money and that takes away from his value. While I understand that there is an age difference with Antonio Brown (who is a better player), the Giants did substantially better than the Steelers did in getting a return. Getting a starting defensive player and recouping two high picks is not nothing. If they can turn those picks into starting players, the deal will have been worth it.
Finally, on a more meta-level, I think it is already long overdue for the Giants to move on from the core players of the late Reese/Coughlin era (I would include the two McAdoo years in that era). Virtually everyone agrees that those years were an unmitigated disaster. However, there has seemed to be some real resistance in the fan base to moving on from its core players. What made last offseason so frustrating for some fans who already saw the writing on the wall is that the organization seemed to double down on a core of players that had done nothing but lose for years. Eli came back, they made Beckham the highest paid receiver in league history, they used the second pick in the draft on a luxury position, they gave big money contracts to mediocre free agents, and they traded draft picks for mediocre players. What was the result of all of that? More losing. This team needs a rebuild and it has needed a rebuild for years. My only question today is what took so long for the organization to realize that?
All of what you say would be perfectly valid if they didn’t JUST sign him to that massive contract.
The point is that for all the whining about Landon Collins, we're actually better off at the safety spot now than we were before.
Use his cap to get a really cheap vet or sign a mobile QB and fortify the rest of the team. We do that, and we'd be in a very good position.
We absolutely have to kill this draft though
DG has been actively shopping him to the rest of the league for months, yesterday was the deadline. He received 5 offers and I am assuming he took the best one.
Considering what the Steelers got for AB, I for one am ok with the return. Now what DG does with the picks is another story.
Eli is still here to pass the baton to the new QB. They want the kid to sit for a year and learn from an experienced professional like Eli. That is why he is still on the team. Let's call it the KC model, lol.
But after the ESPN thing, I think they just started to decide that he was never going to get it - it bothered them enough to start talking about moving him.
And then I think something probably went on with the injury at the end of the year that pissed them off. There were definitely things going on behind the scenes and they probably wanted to nip this in the bud before it became DEFCON-5 (Antonio Brown) and became complete mess where we had no leverage at all.
Quote:
But Bethea is 1000 years old, so what's the point?
The point is that for all the whining about Landon Collins, we're actually better off at the safety spot now than we were before.
It’s not about Landon Collins the player. It is about what they should have had instead of just letting him walk.
You think DG has this master plan involving comp picks. That’s fine. I see a guy who likes to build teams like it’s 1978.
DG has been actively shopping him to the rest of the league for months, yesterday was the deadline. He received 5 offers and I am assuming he took the best one.
Considering what the Steelers got for AB, I for one am ok with the return. Now what DG does with the picks is another story.
Eli is still here to pass the baton to the new QB. They want the kid to sit for a year and learn from an experienced professional like Eli. That is why he is still on the team. Let's call it the KC model, lol.
Yesterday was not the deadline.
We're going to have to eventually draft a replacement or sign one.
Curtis Riley is horrendous - this was a need regardless. Bethea is still more than capable of being a starting safety. He plays every down and is still productive. Even if we just get a year out of him, that's fine - we'll fill the spot with a younger player when we're able to.
When you digest these things, it's a lot easier to take. We got rid of something management deemed was holding us back, and got a 1st, 3rd and Peppers in return.
THE GIANTS DID NOT WANT ODELL ON THE TEAM ANY LONGER.
You probably could've gotten DG to admit he would've just cut him for zero return. He was deemed a huge problem for this team.
Quote:
Given that Bethea is older than dirt, and there's a nonzero chance he falls off a cliff this year?
We're going to have to eventually draft a replacement or sign one.
Curtis Riley is horrendous - this was a need regardless. Bethea is still more than capable of being a starting safety. He plays every down and is still productive. Even if we just get a year out of him, that's fine - we'll fill the spot with a younger player when we're able to.
Focusing on Curtis Riley in this whole scenario is a curious angle. Curtis Riley could be replaced with a mid-round pick or a guy off the street.
When you digest these things, it's a lot easier to take. We got rid of something management deemed was holding us back, and got a 1st, 3rd and Peppers in return.
THE GIANTS DID NOT WANT ODELL ON THE TEAM ANY LONGER.
You probably could've gotten DG to admit he would've just cut him for zero return. He was deemed a huge problem for this team.
I’m glad they decided that immediately after making him the highest paid WR in history. Excellent planning.
Quote:
In comment 14331232 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But Bethea is 1000 years old, so what's the point?
The point is that for all the whining about Landon Collins, we're actually better off at the safety spot now than we were before.
It’s not about Landon Collins the player. It is about what they should have had instead of just letting him walk.
You think DG has this master plan involving comp picks. That’s fine. I see a guy who likes to build teams like it’s 1978.
If he was building a team for 1978, Collins would make perfect sense. Big hitter, great against the run. But with today's wide open passing games and the need to have versatile players that can cover TEs/RBs and the occasional WR, letting Collins go for that deal was the correct move.
Not seeing this back in October and trading him for a 3rd/4th was a mistake, but at least he didn't double down on the stupidity and franchise him or make him the highest paid safety in the league.
Quote:
less for a better WR.
A receiver who is 4 and a half years older and quite possibly losing his mind.
Because Beckham has been the beacon of sane behavior?
Paying Collins big money would have been the real mistake.
Paying Collins big money would have been the real mistake.
And I never said they should have paid Collins big money. That contract is laughable. But letting him go for nothing was stupid. And I have zero faith that DG is using comp picks as his calculus for this ridiculous offseason.
Quote:
I don't think I'm focusing on Curtis Riley - my point is that for all the bellyaching over letting Collins go, we're not any worse off at the position than we were before.
Paying Collins big money would have been the real mistake.
And I never said they should have paid Collins big money. That contract is laughable. But letting him go for nothing was stupid. And I have zero faith that DG is using comp picks as his calculus for this ridiculous offseason.
Maybe it was - we'll see if we get anything or not.
The contract he signed, and the team that signed him makes me feel quite good about letting him go, though.
It’s done, regardless of what we believe. Let’s chalk this up to a possible huge gaffe on his part and see what he does in this draft and the balance of FA. I will do that. And this from a guy who didn’t want DG here in the first place
You guys can convince yourself we got a great haul back. You can convince yourself that we’ll get a player at 17 that will sniff his productivity, that the last pick of the third round is a valuable commodity (we couldn’t even get the higher of their two thirds), and that Jabril Peppers is the missing piece our secondary needed since we just let our All-Pro safety walk out the door for zero return.
“Peppers was a first round pick”, you say, as if that makes it the same as getting a first round pick this year. When instead we got a nice player already two years closer to the end of his rookie contract.
The Giants haven’t even updated their website this morning. Their biggest news is still resigning Penny. Take that as a conscious or subconscious expression of how even they know what a shit sandwich this is to swallow.
Now there will be a flood of unsubstantiated rumors about how much of a problem he was behind the scenes, even though he was universally loved by his teammates. We’ll hear that the distractions were too much to deal with, even though they made him the highest paid WR in history half a year before.
The other teams in our division are all celebrating today. The morning after? It’s no better than the night before.
100% nailed it. Only thing I'd add is reading the justifications that people come up with in these threads is fascinating.
But I root for the team, not the player. I'm not going to hold onto superstars if they don't want to be here, and while Beckham never directly said he didn't want to be here, there was enough smoke for me to believe he didn't really want to be a NYG. With that said - goodbye and thanks for the memories.
So I am on to hoping for the best with what we got. Could be a lot. A few of my takes:
1. I can't understand fans who want MORE analytics then expect every move to make sense to them. I have no idea what level of analytics the Giants are using personnel-wise or if their models are any good, but I'm willing to hope they are able to do a better job than I can.
2. I know it sucks that we spent HUGE money on OBJ just to trade him, what - 8 months later? However we can look at this as a buy-in to the draft. Picking up #17 and #95 and moving up a round (from 5th to 4th), plus taking a player at a position of need is what we got because we took that big cap hit in signing OBJ.
3. Many wanted to rebuild completely - that can look ugly. You have to consider your assets - what do people want and what can you get for them. OBJ was clearly one of our most trade-able assets, as was Vernon. This team is going to be totally different within 15 months. The quality of the roster will be on DG and nobody else, so we will have a short window to see whether he's the right guy for the job. Hang in there.
4. I get criticizing the team for not having a plan, but how about we get through the roster-building part of the offseason at least before we finalize that idea. With 12 picks solid additions at RG and S, and an additional $6.5MM gained through the trades of OBJ and OV finalized before free agency even officially started, we don't know what the plan is.
5. The criticism about keeping Eli may yet be premature. I'll take that criticism more seriously on Sunday once the $5MM has been paid. Until then - as much as I love Eli I'm hoping they let him go or better yet - he retires so that we can get on with that old story line, clear up a ton of cap space, and move on.