year rebuild. I'm surprised at the almost unanimous vitriol the team is getting as they try to completely rework the franchise.
We say we wouldn't trade OBJ unless we got two #1s, and we got a #1, a young former #1 coming into his own who plays a position of need, plus a 3rd rounder. But it's not enough.
We have been pissed at Reese for years because he didn't do a good job of addressing the OL, but rip DG for landing Solder (albeit at an "overpay") and Zeitler for a guy we were going to release.
We were furious with DG for trading Snacks for a 5th and Apple for a 4th, saying that the return sucked. I'm gonna suggest that if they'd have traded Collins for a 3rd at the same time we'd have all been in an uproar. But now, having perhaps gotten a sense of the new price of a contract for a Safety (and I'd like to ask BBI which of us thought Safeties would get 14M a year) and knowing that Collins would hold out until the season if he was franchised, we're furious at DG for not having traded him last year. Perhaps they weren't so sure he wasn't part of the future back then, but seeing his awful coverage this year (different from his best season) they realized they weren't going to commit to him long term. But hindsight is a beautiful thing.
We are in the midst of that 2-3 year rebuild. DG is tearing down the team and unloading high priced players who either weren't living up to their salaries or were headaches and destructive to the team's culture. We have 12 picks this year. I'm going to bet that we'll have extra picks again next year. We'll also have a huge amount of cap space to make FA acquisitions then, when the team is hopefully closer to contending.
I understand the anger and frustration about losing OBJ because he's a special player, one of the few guys who brought excitement in recent years. But I think most of us are overreacting and losing perspective.
Have at me.
Too many knee-jerk reactions and people posting out of anger rather than rationality.
The disappointment comes from the fact that we've seen a number of franchise-type players have their careers end here prematurely...either from injury, bad attitude, bad luck, etc....Shockey, Cruz, Nicks, Plax, Beckham, etc. Disappointed that we didn't start the rebuilding process last year and acquire even more draft picks. Disappointed we didn't get a bit more for Beckham.
But I am very curious to see how this all plays out. They have a super-stud in Barkley. They have the makings of a decent line with two fine guards. They just need Solder to play better and find a right tackle. They've got to get 1-2 legit WRs however.
I think they will go heavy on the defense in the draft.
Yes aren’t you just pleased as punch. All of a sudden you are in support of this regimes rebuild it seems, though they couldn’t do anything right like 3 days ago? Lol.
1. Last year free agents: Solder and Ogletree are good players....don’t know what you are talking about. Solder especially came on in the second half. Ask KMack what he thinks of him. Ogletree is a playmaker with a great nose for the ball. How many pics did he get? Lattimore is okay too, got injured.
2. Last years draft was our best in quite a long time. Watch those kids improve.
3. He did pretty good with the Zeiter trade, dumping a guy who is always injured while getting the 6th best guard in the nfl
4. While we all hate to lose Odell, none of us have all the facts to really judge how Odell crossed the line. Apparently he did....even the owner who was all in on Odell jumped ship on him. And the return we got was pretty substantial...a 1st, a third, getting our fourth back (while retiring their 5th), and a guy just as good as Collins only 13 million cheaper.
5. You watch what DG does with these 12 draft picks. I guarantee 100% of us will be drooling in anticipation.
I mean no disrespect to anyone who disagrees, but you are probably speaking out of emotion because it is definitely not out of your brain.
It will be fine....we have a plan!
I have followed the team since the late 60’s and never saw the amount of roster turnover that we had last year. That told you more than anything that we were in rebuild mode and it is going to take a couple more years. So I fully expect to see a lot of turnover this year.
I have a feeling the next set of moves are going to kill a lot of the momentum I feel they gained yesterday and by adding Zeitler before that.
The data on giving a star RB a large second contract is an even larger indicator for lack of overall team success.
I love Barkley the player. But the data points to an RB being a cherry on top for a successful team not something you start a team that has very little talent with.
Until they win, the negativity will reign. For now, it is fair. We live in a results based society. Results have been bad for a while.
Call me "delusional", but i don't feel the need to get crazily negative. Whether i act like that or not, it doesn't affect the people at Giants central.
Excited to see which young guys step up this year. Also hoping Shurmur takes some steps forward (coaches can improve too)
Been hoping we'll run more 12 personnel so i am happy to hear that is coming.
And if they really do ride with Eli, which i disagree with, I hope he goes out with a better year than we expect. He's been nothing but class. As i get older, i am realizing in sports and in life that is rare.
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Cutting a bad contract off the roster and a cancer out of the locker room can only help.
Yes aren’t you just pleased as punch. All of a sudden you are in support of this regimes rebuild it seems, though they couldn’t do anything right like 3 days ago? Lol.
They've had a good couple days, but still have a long way to go to undo the damage they did last offseason.
They had 1 winning season in the prior 6 and had just gone 4-12.
They have yet to have a losing year since drafting him.
There was nothing 'universal' about the idea of this being a 2-3 year rebuild.
When the season fell apart (and there was some really bad luck in the first half of last season), they said "screw it, its time to rebuild from the bottom". And that is what they started with the mid-season trade of Snacks et al. So they are unwinding a lot of bad contracts and that is a painful process.
The hardest part is letting go of Eli, because he has been a class act for his career. But clearly, whether he gets this upcoming season or not, he isn't part of the future. So maybe if they started taking this apart right away, we would be farther along. But it isn't going to make that much difference. We have a lot of draft picks and a lot of salary cap space next year. They need to get the middle of the field right and obviously find the next giant QB. I think they would prefer to do it in that order, but who knows....
When the season fell apart (and there was some really bad luck in the first half of last season), they said "screw it, its time to rebuild from the bottom". And that is what they started with the mid-season trade of Snacks et al. So they are unwinding a lot of bad contracts and that is a painful process.
They didn't even commit to that. If they were going to trade guys and rebuild, why was Collins on this team through the year? They couldn't have gotten a return for him, instead of nothing.
You think they might have been able to get a better return on Odell Beckham with a midseason trade to a team that was hot to contend?
Yeah, I went on a rant before congratulating you on a great post YA. Clap clap
I am not convinced the Giants thought so last year.
It is ridiculous to say Giants fans as a whole thought so. Go back and re-read what was said when we signed Solder.
Giants Got Solder - ( New Window )
He gives our star future Hall of Famer a massive contract and then trades him away.
He did the same shit to Norman in Carolina too.
It also looks like Pat Shurmur is just a passenger for all of this. You wonder why other coaches didn't want to work here?
We are more and more a joke every single year.
Make a real decision to rebuild or not. The half-assing shit is not helping.
I still think DG did a poor job in FA last year, and should have traded Collins last year. But it looks like we'll get a comp pick for him. He also had an excellent draft.
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Kudos
Yeah, I went on a rant before congratulating you on a great post YA. Clap clap
Yours was pretty damn good also
There was nothing 'universal' about the idea of this being a 2-3 year rebuild.
+1.
When and how do they make the transition?
They had 1 winning season in the prior 6 and had just gone 4-12.
They have yet to have a losing year since drafting him.
Arc I posted a pretty deep analysis of all the NFLs leading rushers for the last 20 years (linked below) and how none of those teams saw any success without a QB on a discounted deal. It is extremely helpful to have both the QB and RB on a discounted deal.
The Cowboys have a QB on a discounted deal so that is in line with my analysis. The problem in this is that it is even harder to compete with the RB on his 2nd deal.
As it relates to the Giants and this rebuild, we aren't likely to have a competitive team before Barkley needs a second deal which is why having an accurate picture of if we could actually compete was pretty important prior to drafting Barkley.
Precedent for Competing with a Star RB - ( New Window )
They didn't even commit to that. If they were going to trade guys and rebuild, why was Collins on this team through the year? They couldn't have gotten a return for him, instead of nothing.
You think they might have been able to get a better return on Odell Beckham with a midseason trade to a team that was hot to contend?
I think a lot happened in terms of their evaluation of those two players in the second half that changed their mind about whether they should be part of the rebuild. But obviously, it is all speculation.
Also, a rebuild has to show signs of progress. DG spent $$$ and picks on offense and for most of the season it was dreadful
Is it the right approach? You'd have to ask me again after year 3.
I have been a believer since the start that regardless of what happened in year 1, it needed to be given more than 1 year. There's just no possible way to have fixed this in one offseason - and it's almost like fans are just aggravated by that reality and are taking their frustrations out accordingly.
I'd prefer that they were more committed to just rebuilding and less concerned about how they compete in the interim.
But, there are different ways to build a football team and I'm willing to give Dave Gettleman this offseason and probably next before I am going to be sure I either like or hate what he's doing.
So far he's done things I've liked - he's also done things I've really not liked.
I have a feeling more of the latter is coming with the QB position - but I'm not going to piss and moan over nothing. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
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What was Dallas doing when they drafted Elliott 4th overall?
They had 1 winning season in the prior 6 and had just gone 4-12.
They have yet to have a losing year since drafting him.
Arc I posted a pretty deep analysis of all the NFLs leading rushers for the last 20 years (linked below) and how none of those teams saw any success without a QB on a discounted deal. It is extremely helpful to have both the QB and RB on a discounted deal.
The Cowboys have a QB on a discounted deal so that is in line with my analysis. The problem in this is that it is even harder to compete with the RB on his 2nd deal.
As it relates to the Giants and this rebuild, we aren't likely to have a competitive team before Barkley needs a second deal which is why having an accurate picture of if we could actually compete was pretty important prior to drafting Barkley. Precedent for Competing with a Star RB - ( New Window )
The Giants can do both, too. It's right there.
If they decide to continue paying Eli, that's a mistake in my opinion.
24 teams spent $10M+ cap on RBs:
- double digit wins: 33%
- losing record: 46%
31 teams spent $3M- cap on RBs:
- double digit wins: 48%
- losing record: 39%
Teams that won with high RB-cap hits had rookie deal QBs/QBs with cap hits outside top 10.
Spending on running backs doesn't work. The Giants already made a mistake drafting Barkley when they did - they can't compound that mistake by paying him in a couple years. Run him into the ground and then either trade him or let him walk in FA, but do NOT give him a second contract.
Again, credit above to Warren Sharp's Twitter. An engineer that decided to switch careers to tracking football stats and trends...he's a great follow on Twitter.
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In comment 14334381 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
They didn't even commit to that. If they were going to trade guys and rebuild, why was Collins on this team through the year? They couldn't have gotten a return for him, instead of nothing.
You think they might have been able to get a better return on Odell Beckham with a midseason trade to a team that was hot to contend?
I think a lot happened in terms of their evaluation of those two players in the second half that changed their mind about whether they should be part of the rebuild. But obviously, it is all speculation.
As a front office, you have a general idea in your mind what a player's ask for a re-signing is going to be. You also have a general idea for what the franchise tag is going to be before it's official. And specific to Collins, he played through a torn labrum in his shoulder after the trade deadline, played through pain, and clearly his play suffered due to it.
If they started the year and got to the trade deadline thinking he was a keeper, then suddenly they reversed course, it's alarming. Front offices don't typically get caught off guard by the potential cost of resigning their own player. They pay people salaries to forecast this type of thing.
When and how do they make the transition?
Eric, that's absolutely true. That's what keeps me worried. We have to land a young competent QB this year. Whether they cut Eli before the season (I feel certain that they won't) or keep him around to run the offense for some part of the year before handing it over to the new guy, they've got to make the transition this year.
Thanks, guys. Lots of good responses.
When and how do they make the transition?
Won't be this year since were are not drafting QB in 2019 draft.
If we do draft a QB in 2020 draft then Eli has 2 more years left.
If we don't, but draft a QB in 2021 then Eli has 3 more years left.
If we don't draft a QB by 2021....then God help us all...Eli might honestly still be here as a 42 y.o. QB 4 years from now.
When and how do they make the transition?
We make the transition with the #6 pick. Either Haskins or Murray. I think DG had a conversation with Eli after the season and told him this could be his last year with the team. They were drafting his successor and unless the team wins the Superbowl, Eli was out in 2020.
And if Eli is struggling by week 7 his Giants career is over. The next QB is coming in for good.
That's why the Giants have not extended Eli to lower his cap hit. This is it and Eli knows this.
As I said in that thread if you are going to act without precedent for a strategy its good to at least justify it with a new ideas / approach.
I agree they can do both but if you are talking in probabilities of success you are limiting yourself and your window of success by not playing them and the tendencies that have proven to create winners.
Could the Giants find a franchise QB this year or next? Absolutely they could.
Does the rest of the team construction make it difficult to form a winner even if they do strike on this not high probability event? Yes.
By having a player like Barkley on the team you really accelerate the timeline needed to have certain other pieces in place and starting that clock while also making the team worse IE trading away generational talents is not a consistent strategy if you are trying to capitalize on that window
When and how do they make the transition?
They’re waiting until the QB they really want is available. They didn’t want any of the QBs last year. It appears they don’t want any QBs this year. 2020 looks like the year, and they’ll probably give up whatever it takes to move up to get him unless they finish high enough where they don’t have to.
And it’s the right play. Change for the sake of change only sets the franchise back even further, especially at the QB position.
When and how do they make the transition?
They could draft Haskins and then that part would be done as well.
I've heard many times that paying WR's big money isn't a winning formula, but Alshon Jeffery was eating the largest portion of the Eagles' SB team cap a couple years ago.
Barkley is an asset any way you look at it. Just because he's here now doesn't mean we're married to him for 10 years.
We could get his best 4-5 years, and then use him as a chip to recoup picks, clear salary, and get younger.
Barkley being on the team in and of itself isn't a total roadblock to winning football games - we have to stop painting that picture.
I've heard many times that paying WR's big money isn't a winning formula, but Alshon Jeffery was eating the largest portion of the Eagles' SB team cap a couple years ago.
Barkley is an asset any way you look at it. Just because he's here now doesn't mean we're married to him for 10 years.
We could get his best 4-5 years, and then use him as a chip to recoup picks, clear salary, and get younger.
Barkley being on the team in and of itself isn't a total roadblock to winning football games - we have to stop painting that picture.
You can either believe the point of view or not. You've provided two examples, Sharp's has provided every example the last five years and shared the results.
Beckham should be a cautionary tale about Barkley...not with any off the field stuff, but if you're going to pay a guy huge money you have to KNOW that the guy you're paying is going to help your team compete for big things. Otherwise it isn't worth it. Just get another guy at a fraction of the price.
1. Last year free agents: Solder and Ogletree are good players....don’t know what you are talking about. Solder especially came on in the second half. Ask KMack what he thinks of him. Ogletree is a playmaker with a great nose for the ball. How many pics did he get? Lattimore is okay too, got injured.
2. Last years draft was our best in quite a long time. Watch those kids improve.
3. He did pretty good with the Zeiter trade, dumping a guy who is always injured while getting the 6th best guard in the nfl
4. While we all hate to lose Odell, none of us have all the facts to really judge how Odell crossed the line. Apparently he did....even the owner who was all in on Odell jumped ship on him. And the return we got was pretty substantial...a 1st, a third, getting our fourth back (while retiring their 5th), and a guy just as good as Collins only 13 million cheaper.
5. You watch what DG does with these 12 draft picks. I guarantee 100% of us will be drooling in anticipation.
I mean no disrespect to anyone who disagrees, but you are probably speaking out of emotion because it is definitely not out of your brain.
It will be fine....we have a plan!
Right on!