ProFootballTalk quotes Dan Graziano of ESPN, who quotes anonymous sources who say the Giants will pay Eli Manning’s roster bonus.
It’s not much of a surprise anyway, but the $5MM payment is even less newsworthy as fourth-hand gossip than it would be if Dave Gettleman actually announced it.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
RE: I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
Having Eli here just doesn't make sense. Where does another losing season with him get us? Why are we wasting more cap dollars on a farewell tour?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
I've known he was going to start this year for a while. I just want to watch the Giants play with a QP that gives me an opportunity to win an important game. We disagree I'm weather weekly deal I can do that. I don't hate him I just think he's bad. Hell up and paid more than any player in the history of the NFL I don't believe he needs a farewell tours compensation. Everything in the world is a function of time. We are wasting a year of development and evaluation. For a new QB. Starting him another year potentially puts us back another year four return to respectability. It's kind of sad to watch him finish out his career this way to, sucks
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
RE: RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
RE: RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
Completely disagree..
Eli can still play and they CAN go another few seasons with him if needed. Dumping him now reduces your leverage and makes you look more desperate for a QB....period.
You may have an old shitty boat that looks like it needs to be replaced. However, once you jump into the water with no life jacket... then you will likely pay anything to get something that floats.
then cut him to get even more dead money for this years cap. Isn't that the Gettleman way? Imagine demanding fans to show up and see a tanking team who has no desire to win or even being entertaining. This will be a season of record numbers of ticket resales to fans of visiting teams.
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
Here is the thing....Eli will not win another championship with the Giants.
Give the ball to someone else, Lauletta, some Free agent, whatever. Giving Eli the ball for one more season does NOTHING to help this team out in the future. Maybe it clicks for Lauletta (it's not 100% certain that it wouldn't) or whomever you have on the field. If it does not click..you are likely to be in position to grab a guy in 2020. Eli will give you a great chance to get to 8-8..big freakin whoop.
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
We could try to go that route - I just would worry that we are going to win a few meaningless games again, put ourselves in the middle of the 1st rd, and then need to spend more just to get up within range to get one of those QB's than we would this year to get Murray.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
Hah, I actually found myself doing that a few times recently!
I was like "oh boy, this looks like the work of Googs"
Is the most valuable resource in the universe. The clock is always clicking on ALL of us. I don't know when I am going to the ground. I don't believe in wasting a year giving Eli a farewell tour. It is going to happen though. Nothing to do but hope I am wrong.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
I don't think I would categorize a lot of this as fact, ut it sure sounds more likely than not. And that is alarming because it's a nightmare scenario.
I really can't get my arms around this idea that Eli is going to be this great mentor. Based on what? He sure isn't in the same league as a QB thinker like his savant brother. And his decision making on the field is replete with some horrible decisions. I'd rather that be done by the person who specializes in this kind of thing - the QB coach.
RE: Why does everyone assume Eli only has 1 year left here??? Â
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
Maybe in three years the team will be up to the standard Manning deserves -- and the Giant will finally settle their debt for the misfortune they've put Manning through.
one can sometimes confuse iQ with judgment. Just because Eli tried to force something does not mean he didn't know better.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
I'm not attacking Eli's intellect. But on the football field, Eli is the gun-slinger, ala Favre, willing to take on greater risk for the greater reward. That's always been his instinct. I think we can agree there have been times on the football field where Eli threw out the easier, better option for the riskier, poorer option. Without that, and this is the great irony, we probably don't win one of those SBs.
I don't think that type of QB style can be taught - obviously.
Regardless, like I said, leave that mentoring to a QB coach. They focus on the the game, decision making techniques, fundamentals, etc.
Steve Young will tell that he learned that some stuff from Montana, but considerably more from Paul Holmgren.
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
You mean, it’s that simple? Any chance that’s comprehended here? 😎
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
I’m not generally a gambler, but with all of BBI as my witness, I will bet you that you are full of shit and that neither of those two things happen.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Wow arc, you are in rare form today... Take a deep breath! ;)
I think we agree on the perfect scenario of signing Remmers, and trading a 3rd for Rosen. I really don't want to trade more than a 3rd, and don't think he should cost more than that. He is tainted goods at this point.
I think there are some flaws in Haskins' game, but I agree nothing more than a typical prospect. I've pointed out flaws before, but I never focused on them as a reason I for not drafting him.
As most of you know by now, I am an analytics guy... When you go back an look at QB picked in the 1st or 2nd round the indicators that most correlates with NFL success are
1. Number of games started with somewhere around 27 being the inflection point
2. Assuming 27+ starts, level of competition
3. Assuming 27+ starts and high level of comp, completion %
After that all other indicators fall off a cliff.
The rationale for number of games started is that the more game you have of them on film the better you can evaluate them. What's more, opposing teams have had at least a year to analyze them and come up with defenive game plans to stop them. If the prospect is able to adjust their game and take it to another level, then you really know he has something.
Level of competition, is related to game starts, but its important that you get to see and evaluate the player in stressful situations. Heavy pass rushes, better secondary players, tighter windows... Again, it allows the scout the opportunity to better evaluate the prospect.
Completion percentage is self explanatory... But it turns out, that without the game starts and level of competition, completion percentage on its own has virtually zero correlation to NFL success.
And that is the rub. Haskins may be great, or he might be like 1000 other 1 year QBs. Everybody was high on Herbert at the beginning of the year. I withheld my judgement of him for about the first 5 or 6 games. And what I saw, was a guy not adjusting to defenses, and not good at going through progressions. But we only learned this AFTER Herbert has played in about 18 or 19 games... Only having 14 games, Haskins is a HUGE risk. It's what we don't know about Haskins that scares me far more than what we do know.
With that said, we have seen 23 games from Tua, and 29 from Fromm. I am not sure why, there has been some criticism leveled at Fromm this past year, but to my eyes he has made steady progression. Completion rate is up, Td rate is up, Yards/Att is up, and interception rate is down. And watching his games, I thought he looked more confident and decisive. I also like his size, Tua is a more dynamic playmaker, but I have size concerns with him. Right now, I am firmly on the Fromm train. And I think he will be easier to get than Tua.
I agree that Lawrence is a too far out, and a pipe dream. Though, he would look damn good in blue!
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What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
It becomes a vicious cycle.
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In comment 14335620 arcarsenal said:
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
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In comment 14335742 Big Blue '56 said:
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
Tearing it down makes sense at that point. Eli being here was all about winning, so trade OBJ? Those two are not in congruence at all, so then what?
Enter a draft with huge question marks as prospects while riding Eli to another sub .500 shitshow.
I'll always root for Eli, but thats not the point.
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In comment 14335763 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
If so’it’s a no-brainer!!!
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In comment 14335362 trueblueinpw said:
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You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
But a QB? Now that is the real test.
From your lips...
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
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he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
Completely disagree..
Eli can still play and they CAN go another few seasons with him if needed. Dumping him now reduces your leverage and makes you look more desperate for a QB....period.
You may have an old shitty boat that looks like it needs to be replaced. However, once you jump into the water with no life jacket... then you will likely pay anything to get something that floats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
Give the ball to someone else, Lauletta, some Free agent, whatever. Giving Eli the ball for one more season does NOTHING to help this team out in the future. Maybe it clicks for Lauletta (it's not 100% certain that it wouldn't) or whomever you have on the field. If it does not click..you are likely to be in position to grab a guy in 2020. Eli will give you a great chance to get to 8-8..big freakin whoop.
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So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
We could try to go that route - I just would worry that we are going to win a few meaningless games again, put ourselves in the middle of the 1st rd, and then need to spend more just to get up within range to get one of those QB's than we would this year to get Murray.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
Hah, I actually found myself doing that a few times recently!
I was like "oh boy, this looks like the work of Googs"
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...
Don't worry, we'll be good again soon and you can pull your Houdini act...
LOL!
Coffee straight out the nose!
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
And that would be what we call, quarterback hell
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
I don't think I would categorize a lot of this as fact, ut it sure sounds more likely than not. And that is alarming because it's a nightmare scenario.
I really can't get my arms around this idea that Eli is going to be this great mentor. Based on what? He sure isn't in the same league as a QB thinker like his savant brother. And his decision making on the field is replete with some horrible decisions. I'd rather that be done by the person who specializes in this kind of thing - the QB coach.
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
Maybe in three years the team will be up to the standard Manning deserves -- and the Giant will finally settle their debt for the misfortune they've put Manning through.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
I'm not attacking Eli's intellect. But on the football field, Eli is the gun-slinger, ala Favre, willing to take on greater risk for the greater reward. That's always been his instinct. I think we can agree there have been times on the football field where Eli threw out the easier, better option for the riskier, poorer option. Without that, and this is the great irony, we probably don't win one of those SBs.
I don't think that type of QB style can be taught - obviously.
Regardless, like I said, leave that mentoring to a QB coach. They focus on the the game, decision making techniques, fundamentals, etc.
Steve Young will tell that he learned that some stuff from Montana, but considerably more from Paul Holmgren.
You mean, it’s that simple? Any chance that’s comprehended here? 😎
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
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for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
I’m not generally a gambler, but with all of BBI as my witness, I will bet you that you are full of shit and that neither of those two things happen.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Wow arc, you are in rare form today... Take a deep breath! ;)
I think we agree on the perfect scenario of signing Remmers, and trading a 3rd for Rosen. I really don't want to trade more than a 3rd, and don't think he should cost more than that. He is tainted goods at this point.
I think there are some flaws in Haskins' game, but I agree nothing more than a typical prospect. I've pointed out flaws before, but I never focused on them as a reason I for not drafting him.
As most of you know by now, I am an analytics guy... When you go back an look at QB picked in the 1st or 2nd round the indicators that most correlates with NFL success are
1. Number of games started with somewhere around 27 being the inflection point
2. Assuming 27+ starts, level of competition
3. Assuming 27+ starts and high level of comp, completion %
After that all other indicators fall off a cliff.
The rationale for number of games started is that the more game you have of them on film the better you can evaluate them. What's more, opposing teams have had at least a year to analyze them and come up with defenive game plans to stop them. If the prospect is able to adjust their game and take it to another level, then you really know he has something.
Level of competition, is related to game starts, but its important that you get to see and evaluate the player in stressful situations. Heavy pass rushes, better secondary players, tighter windows... Again, it allows the scout the opportunity to better evaluate the prospect.
Completion percentage is self explanatory... But it turns out, that without the game starts and level of competition, completion percentage on its own has virtually zero correlation to NFL success.
And that is the rub. Haskins may be great, or he might be like 1000 other 1 year QBs. Everybody was high on Herbert at the beginning of the year. I withheld my judgement of him for about the first 5 or 6 games. And what I saw, was a guy not adjusting to defenses, and not good at going through progressions. But we only learned this AFTER Herbert has played in about 18 or 19 games... Only having 14 games, Haskins is a HUGE risk. It's what we don't know about Haskins that scares me far more than what we do know.
With that said, we have seen 23 games from Tua, and 29 from Fromm. I am not sure why, there has been some criticism leveled at Fromm this past year, but to my eyes he has made steady progression. Completion rate is up, Td rate is up, Yards/Att is up, and interception rate is down. And watching his games, I thought he looked more confident and decisive. I also like his size, Tua is a more dynamic playmaker, but I have size concerns with him. Right now, I am firmly on the Fromm train. And I think he will be easier to get than Tua.
I agree that Lawrence is a too far out, and a pipe dream. Though, he would look damn good in blue!