I appreciate Eli, but shit I am tired of the "get him x position and see what happens" sentiments. That's fine if you're still holding out hope, but at this point it's painful to watch.
But it still is a bummer. Oh well. Trot Eli out there for one last painful season on his resume.
I can't think of an offseason in the last decade that has began so brutally.
This nails it.
As far as, 'let's see what happens', we've said that for 7 straight years now and are 20 games under .500 in this time period with Eli now older than he was in the previous seasons, and with less offensive weapons than ever. Imagine being that lost to say, 'lets see what happens.' But hey, one more sub .500 year is fine by me. Just sucks for Eli himself and his career record. But, oh well. No sympathy from me in the least.
C'mon bw.... with the way Lauletta shit the bed last year, this was preordained.
Why though? Why did anyone think that the Giants scouting department was going to buck the trend and somehow find a viable starting QB in the 4th round?
I do think we can rebuild rather quickly, but I don't believe anymore that it will involve Eli. It made a little more sense when we had Odell, now it doesn't make much sense at all.
Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
Lauletta stunk and was a wasted pick. Tanney is a hambone. We have only one legit starting qb under contract. Bitch all you want; until we get a #1 pick in here or someone else's failed #1 to rehabilitate, there are no alternatives.
RE: RE: If the Giants go 3-13 - what does it mean for Eli's HoF chances? Â
Lauletta stunk and was a wasted pick. Tanney is a hambone. We have only one legit starting qb under contract. Bitch all you want; until we get a #1 pick in here or someone else's failed #1 to rehabilitate, there are no alternatives.
Yeah, handing off to Barkley 400X is going to require some serious, seasoned QB skills... ;)
get pummeled, lose games, and generally be disrespected by the rest of the football world. Technically he still is “a legitimate starting QB” but he’s among the lower tier and is so damn expensive. If we are tearing the band-aid off finally, and rebuilding, Eli doesn’t need to be the starting QB for that. Just my opinion.
I still doubt that would happen, though. Giants tend to give management all the opportunities in the world to succeed. Mara would at least want to see them with a new QB before canning them.
I still doubt that would happen, though. Giants tend to give management all the opportunities in the world to succeed. Mara would at least want to see them with a new QB before canning them.
Then we should see that in 2019. If you're paying Eli, you're doing it to win. Otherwise it makes zero sense.
You think this team will actually go 6-10? Except for the Miami game we might be underdogs in almost every game next year. I don't know if any other team have a worse roster. Maybe it will look much better after the draft?
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
You think this team will actually go 6-10? Except for the Miami game we might be underdogs in almost every game next year. I don't know if any other team have a worse roster. Maybe it will look much better after the draft?
If this team were well coached I'd feel fine going into the season. It hasn't been, though.
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
I appreciate Eli, but shit I am tired of the "get him x position and see what happens" sentiments. That's fine if you're still holding out hope, but at this point it's painful to watch.
Keaton you will need it for any QB. Let him play and grab the future next year
Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
Best WR in the game? What measure are you using for that statement? LMAO..
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
But it still is a bummer. Oh well. Trot Eli out there for one last painful season on his resume.
I can't think of an offseason in the last decade that has began so brutally.
This nails it.
As far as, 'let's see what happens', we've said that for 7 straight years now and are 20 games under .500 in this time period with Eli now older than he was in the previous seasons, and with less offensive weapons than ever. Imagine being that lost to say, 'lets see what happens.' But hey, one more sub .500 year is fine by me. Just sucks for Eli himself and his career record. But, oh well. No sympathy from me in the least.
These stories mean nothing. Even if they pay him the bonus now a lot can happen before the season.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
This.
Although why he wants to stay is beyond me. With the money he’s already made, how is it worth it for him to try and prop up the team—again—all the while the team punching bag?
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
It does matter when you tie the last two years of moves together.
I’d bet them not taking a QB is more before they don’t want the fan backlash than not liking them. We all saw the reaction when they benched them. They saw the Odell reaction, you think they’re going to anger those fans again by drafting Eli’s replacement? No shot, not on thin skinned Mara’s watch.
I’m certainly not going to tell fans how to feel about this. Â
And people are entitled to be excited about another season with Eli. But to me, his exit has not proceeded gracefully like Jeter, or Kobe, or Wade but as a once great boxer, well past his prime, who keeps stepping in the ring with younger foes to get pummeled in hopes of one last championship run. Just me, and I love Eli who has pioneered some incredible moments for the Giants, but brother, when it’s over it’s over.
Knowing the competitor Eli is, and he is an absolute competitor, I cannot for the life of me understand why he’d want to Quarterback this team for one last throwaway season.
RE: I’m certainly not going to tell fans how to feel about this. Â
And people are entitled to be excited about another season with Eli. But to me, his exit has not proceeded gracefully like Jeter, or Kobe, or Wade but as a once great boxer, well past his prime, who keeps stepping in the ring with younger foes to get pummeled in hopes of one last championship run. Just me, and I love Eli who has pioneered some incredible moments for the Giants, but brother, when it’s over it’s over.
Knowing the competitor Eli is, and he is an absolute competitor, I cannot for the life of me understand why he’d want to Quarterback this team for one last throwaway season.
I could see him asking for his release and then waiting and seeing if something comes his way.
...they need to get a right tackle and wide receiver "for Eli Manning."
Rather, they need to get both for the TEAM and for whomever is under center.
At this stage in his career, Eli Manning is on the team for two reasons:
(1) Giants management feels he gives them the best chance to win the most games in 2019;
(2) The Giants are very loyal to their star citizen and future HOF QB, and with only one year left in his career they do not want to dump him unceremoniously.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
in the balls. I think we all recognize his greatness in years past, and appreciate the representative he’s been for the club. Not understanding why he still needs to make nearly 20’million in a tear down, throwaway season isn’t really disrespecting the guy, who will literally become the highest earning player in NFL history surpassing his brother. For the most part, the Giants and us fans have only done right by Eli honestly.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
So in some instances the team will jettison players Â
Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
It doesn’t really matter who is under center. The object isn’t really to win, but to build and get people opportunities and experience. If they want to give Eli a proper farewell, that’s fine, but does he need to make 17 million to do that? I don’t know. Seems expensive for a pony show.
RE: All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
RE: All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
I appreciate Eli, but shit I am tired of the "get him x position and see what happens" sentiments. That's fine if you're still holding out hope, but at this point it's painful to watch.
I agree with Montana. Eli looked better the second half of the season with some improvement in the OLine play. It was the defense that killed us the second half of the season. get hime the RT and another WR or TE.
I’m just voicing my thoughts, but it’s more just me not understanding then actually complaining. If the Giants don’t need the cap space then fine, I guess, though it’s still early in free agency.
RE: All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Chris -- you are one of the better posters through and through on this site -- and that is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen posted here.
You know very well it's not about a mythical free agent, it's that the money rolls over and can be used to bolster the team at any point.
And good grief -- they aren't the New York Elis. No one let him down -- the management and staff let the organization and fans down by not producing a winner
If this teams is making personnel decisions because of loyalty and accomplishments from a decade ago, yikes.
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
I have been saying since the end of the season that Eli would play out his contract with the Giants in 2019.
You should get pissed if they were to extend him.
Now they need to find his replacement either through the draft or trade for Rosen.
Build the OL and DL with all of these draft choices. This has been where DG shines.
A viable alternative before they release him? I can only see them releasing him if they trade for Rosen.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
Oh please! You’re comparing the importance of QB to other positional players?
So the QB position is important but we’ve put up with sub par performance at a premium price for three seasons, and that’s ok. Got it.
MAINLY BECAUSE OF THE OL. Is that loud enough? Continue to fix that and we can be productive with Eli, his successor and SB controlling things in and out of the backfield
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
You’re too fucking rational. You need a break from here
RE: So in some instances the team will jettison players Â
Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
RE: RE: So in some instances the team will jettison players Â
Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
Teams aren’t that naive. They know the Giants could possibly make a move for a QB. They aren’t fooling any of the other teams in the league while keeping Eli. If anything it makes them that much more desperate next year.
Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
As DG should
I 100% agree. Some will complain that there are "too many cooks in the kitchen", but seeking a consensus from ownership as it pertains to key decisions is good business.
The ability to roll over that empty cap space will be huge for next year when we have a ton of money to spend.
But this front office isn’t that forward thinking I guess.
How much is too much? Right now, there is an estimated $90M under the cap for 2020.
$107 million is better than $90 million. You’d rather have less cap space for what reason?
In 2018 the Titans were able to spend $207 million against an $177 million cap. There’s a thread comparing us to the 2016 Browns, well in the 2018 off season they rolled over $60 million in cap. When trying to take full advantage of Barkley’s skills why wouldn’t you want as much cap space as possible?
Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
This is typical of the dumbasserie that has become epidemic on this site lately...
Which 2 playoff teams had "worse OL's"...???
And that’s cap space that doesn’t just have to be Â
From a simple argument - yes more cap space is better than less, but it is only meaningful if you intend to spend it. For every million not spent, it is essentially another million profit for Mara/Tisch. When it comes to the cap, the ideal balance is to field the most competitive roster year in and year out with the limited cap space. Having $60M to carryover is theft for the players that are putting their health on the line and the fans paying for the product.
Look at DG's history. There is no evidence that he has shown a propensity to spend $100M in cap space in a given season. For every dollar "saved and carried over", is just another dollar in Mara/Tisch's Scrooge McDuck fantasy of swimming in gold.
dead money and zero cap space for Eli next year is way better. I know fans will get caught up in the noise but 2020 was always the plan to start fresh.
he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
you either think that using $17M that could go to the future payroll of the team instead to pay a player for past service and good behavior is a responsible/acceptable thing to do, or you don't.
I personally don't.
Of the many that do, lots seem to simply ignore the fact that unused salary cap space carries forward from year to year.
"What else were we going to use it for this year?" is literally a nonsense justification.
he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
I'll never understand why people can't wrap their head around this.
If you want him gone, just admit it's because it's for the sake of him being gone. Don't disguise your pitchfork, point it.
There is not one sensible reason to dump Eli Manning for Ryan Fitzpatrick or anybody like him.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
RE: So in some instances the team will jettison players Â
Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
I don't necessarily agree. I think it's as likely as not that they will throw Fromm immediately into the wolves.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
That's fine. Kyler Murray's size gives me pause but if that's what they want to do I'm fine with it.
One way or another, we need a vet QB on the roster. I see no reason why Kyler Murray can't be on the roster while Manning plays out the last year of his deal.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
They want to build a team and that is done largely through the draft. Plus, most of the 1st tier FA's are already committed, so they will be looking largely for depth. Not building the team that way. Murray would cost resources so you wold create a choice by getting Murray and not filling holes or filling holes and waiting on the better QB next year.
I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
We could go that route, Britt - I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve.
Odds are, we just wind up winning 6-7 games with Eli, a year of Murray gets burned, year 2 of Barkley gets burned... and for what?
If Beckham was still here and I thought we could really field a legitimately good offense - then, the Eli route would make a little more sense to me.
But, if we're keeping Eli, it means we're trying to win - but we simultaneously just took away his biggest pass game weapon - and are almost setting him up to fail. Do we really want to watch Eli spend another year here losing games every week and having fans blame him for it and his legacy continue to just devolve further into this shitty abyss?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.Win with Eli and develop his drafted replacement if possible. “Over and over again” will continue if he doesn’t have a good OL to work with. We’re improving there. If solidified further, we should be fine with Eli and SB. If not, then yes, “over and over.”
keeping Eli and trading Beckham makes no sense. Beckham is too much trouble to keep around—fine, then tank and get a QB or draft one this year. But to trade Beckham and actually try to win games this year without a QB in place is how you become a laughingstock franchise and a bad one for many years to come.
RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
RE: RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
RE: RE: RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
Not sure if I understand your question completely. But you should think of it this way -- Eli's cash earnings for 2019 will be about $17M. If you cut him now, you will have $17M more to spend next year than if you keep him through this year.
Of course, some offset for whatever you pay the QB that you add in his place. According to most suggestions, a rookie, so not much.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
So that they can use all of their picks to "build around Eli" - still.
RE: RE: RE: All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
Agreed. Eli is not a choice. He is a lack of options. We have no one else. No QB this year probably means he's extended for one more year.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
It doesn’t really matter who is under center. The object isn’t really to win, but to build and get people opportunities and experience. If they want to give Eli a proper farewell, that’s fine, but does he need to make 17 million to do that? I don’t know. Seems expensive for a pony show.
The object is to win. Period. In the NFL there is only this year. If the object was not to win, no Eli.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
The funny thing is that nobody really tanks in the NFL Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
They wouldn't use the money to go for another player? Are they going to stuff pillows with it?
The Giants have a massive talent deficit, a refrain we've been hammered with as a defense of Manning's average play during many of the last several years.
The Giants will return to being good the same way all other good teams do it; draft well and spend wisely, including paying really good young players a lot of money.
Paying old average players a lot of money is never part of a good plan.
Even if you are drafting a qb, many don’t need the mentor anymore. They have the HC, the OC, a QB coach and so on. And if you draft a qb, especially 1st round, at some point you’re going to want to see him play. Which will return us to the scenario of benching Eli again as in 2017, and him wondering what he is doing here if it’s not to win. At some point, someone else has to play QB for the New York Giants.
A more accurate headline for this thread would be: Â
ProFootballTalk quotes Dan Graziano of ESPN, who quotes anonymous sources who say the Giants will pay Eli Manning’s roster bonus.
It’s not much of a surprise anyway, but the $5MM payment is even less newsworthy as fourth-hand gossip than it would be if Dave Gettleman actually announced it.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
RE: I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
Having Eli here just doesn't make sense. Where does another losing season with him get us? Why are we wasting more cap dollars on a farewell tour?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
I've known he was going to start this year for a while. I just want to watch the Giants play with a QP that gives me an opportunity to win an important game. We disagree I'm weather weekly deal I can do that. I don't hate him I just think he's bad. Hell up and paid more than any player in the history of the NFL I don't believe he needs a farewell tours compensation. Everything in the world is a function of time. We are wasting a year of development and evaluation. For a new QB. Starting him another year potentially puts us back another year four return to respectability. It's kind of sad to watch him finish out his career this way to, sucks
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
RE: RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
RE: RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
Completely disagree..
Eli can still play and they CAN go another few seasons with him if needed. Dumping him now reduces your leverage and makes you look more desperate for a QB....period.
You may have an old shitty boat that looks like it needs to be replaced. However, once you jump into the water with no life jacket... then you will likely pay anything to get something that floats.
then cut him to get even more dead money for this years cap. Isn't that the Gettleman way? Imagine demanding fans to show up and see a tanking team who has no desire to win or even being entertaining. This will be a season of record numbers of ticket resales to fans of visiting teams.
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
Here is the thing....Eli will not win another championship with the Giants.
Give the ball to someone else, Lauletta, some Free agent, whatever. Giving Eli the ball for one more season does NOTHING to help this team out in the future. Maybe it clicks for Lauletta (it's not 100% certain that it wouldn't) or whomever you have on the field. If it does not click..you are likely to be in position to grab a guy in 2020. Eli will give you a great chance to get to 8-8..big freakin whoop.
So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
We could try to go that route - I just would worry that we are going to win a few meaningless games again, put ourselves in the middle of the 1st rd, and then need to spend more just to get up within range to get one of those QB's than we would this year to get Murray.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
Hah, I actually found myself doing that a few times recently!
I was like "oh boy, this looks like the work of Googs"
Is the most valuable resource in the universe. The clock is always clicking on ALL of us. I don't know when I am going to the ground. I don't believe in wasting a year giving Eli a farewell tour. It is going to happen though. Nothing to do but hope I am wrong.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
I don't think I would categorize a lot of this as fact, ut it sure sounds more likely than not. And that is alarming because it's a nightmare scenario.
I really can't get my arms around this idea that Eli is going to be this great mentor. Based on what? He sure isn't in the same league as a QB thinker like his savant brother. And his decision making on the field is replete with some horrible decisions. I'd rather that be done by the person who specializes in this kind of thing - the QB coach.
RE: Why does everyone assume Eli only has 1 year left here??? Â
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
Maybe in three years the team will be up to the standard Manning deserves -- and the Giant will finally settle their debt for the misfortune they've put Manning through.
one can sometimes confuse iQ with judgment. Just because Eli tried to force something does not mean he didn't know better.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
I'm not attacking Eli's intellect. But on the football field, Eli is the gun-slinger, ala Favre, willing to take on greater risk for the greater reward. That's always been his instinct. I think we can agree there have been times on the football field where Eli threw out the easier, better option for the riskier, poorer option. Without that, and this is the great irony, we probably don't win one of those SBs.
I don't think that type of QB style can be taught - obviously.
Regardless, like I said, leave that mentoring to a QB coach. They focus on the the game, decision making techniques, fundamentals, etc.
Steve Young will tell that he learned that some stuff from Montana, but considerably more from Paul Holmgren.
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
You mean, it’s that simple? Any chance that’s comprehended here? 😎
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
I’m not generally a gambler, but with all of BBI as my witness, I will bet you that you are full of shit and that neither of those two things happen.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Wow arc, you are in rare form today... Take a deep breath! ;)
I think we agree on the perfect scenario of signing Remmers, and trading a 3rd for Rosen. I really don't want to trade more than a 3rd, and don't think he should cost more than that. He is tainted goods at this point.
I think there are some flaws in Haskins' game, but I agree nothing more than a typical prospect. I've pointed out flaws before, but I never focused on them as a reason I for not drafting him.
As most of you know by now, I am an analytics guy... When you go back an look at QB picked in the 1st or 2nd round the indicators that most correlates with NFL success are
1. Number of games started with somewhere around 27 being the inflection point
2. Assuming 27+ starts, level of competition
3. Assuming 27+ starts and high level of comp, completion %
After that all other indicators fall off a cliff.
The rationale for number of games started is that the more game you have of them on film the better you can evaluate them. What's more, opposing teams have had at least a year to analyze them and come up with defenive game plans to stop them. If the prospect is able to adjust their game and take it to another level, then you really know he has something.
Level of competition, is related to game starts, but its important that you get to see and evaluate the player in stressful situations. Heavy pass rushes, better secondary players, tighter windows... Again, it allows the scout the opportunity to better evaluate the prospect.
Completion percentage is self explanatory... But it turns out, that without the game starts and level of competition, completion percentage on its own has virtually zero correlation to NFL success.
And that is the rub. Haskins may be great, or he might be like 1000 other 1 year QBs. Everybody was high on Herbert at the beginning of the year. I withheld my judgement of him for about the first 5 or 6 games. And what I saw, was a guy not adjusting to defenses, and not good at going through progressions. But we only learned this AFTER Herbert has played in about 18 or 19 games... Only having 14 games, Haskins is a HUGE risk. It's what we don't know about Haskins that scares me far more than what we do know.
With that said, we have seen 23 games from Tua, and 29 from Fromm. I am not sure why, there has been some criticism leveled at Fromm this past year, but to my eyes he has made steady progression. Completion rate is up, Td rate is up, Yards/Att is up, and interception rate is down. And watching his games, I thought he looked more confident and decisive. I also like his size, Tua is a more dynamic playmaker, but I have size concerns with him. Right now, I am firmly on the Fromm train. And I think he will be easier to get than Tua.
I agree that Lawrence is a too far out, and a pipe dream. Though, he would look damn good in blue!
I can't think of an offseason in the last decade that has began so brutally.
Absolutely Montana.
Nothing would make me happier. I just don’t see it happening.
"Let's see what happens," couldn't sum up the vision for this team any better.
C'mon bw.... with the way Lauletta shit the bed last year, this was preordained.
Don't worry, we'll be good again soon and you can pull your Houdini act...
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Don't worry, we'll be good again soon and you can pull your Houdini act...
That’s the spirit, trash anyone who dare questions the Giants!
I can't think of an offseason in the last decade that has began so brutally.
This nails it.
As far as, 'let's see what happens', we've said that for 7 straight years now and are 20 games under .500 in this time period with Eli now older than he was in the previous seasons, and with less offensive weapons than ever. Imagine being that lost to say, 'lets see what happens.' But hey, one more sub .500 year is fine by me. Just sucks for Eli himself and his career record. But, oh well. No sympathy from me in the least.
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C'mon bw.... with the way Lauletta shit the bed last year, this was preordained.
Why though? Why did anyone think that the Giants scouting department was going to buck the trend and somehow find a viable starting QB in the 4th round?
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C'mon bw.... with the way Lauletta shit the bed last year, this was preordained.
I know I was swimming against the current.
Serious question - how did Eli look his first time in for a real game?
Link - ( New Window )
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
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Because you can bet with this roster they're not breaking .500.
Nothing. There are one other qb with multiple SB wins who is not in the HOF: Jim Plunkett and Manning had a much better career. Manning is a lock
I used to think you were right, but I'm not so sure - we'll see, I guess.
Yeah, handing off to Barkley 400X is going to require some serious, seasoned QB skills... ;)
He's clearly the bridge from putrid to the future.
Along the way he's just taking a beating on the ride of this understandably slow rebuild.
And when it's all ready, he's either getting dumped or literally hurt.
I don't agree with it but I suspect they would use that fact to keep him out.
He's clearly the bridge from putrid to the future.
Along the way he's just taking a beating on the ride of this understandably slow rebuild.
[B]And when it's all ready, he's either getting dumped or literally hurt.[/B/]
Hey, that's business. And life, too, in some ways.
He's clearly the bridge from putrid to the future.
Along the way he's just taking a beating on the ride of this understandably slow rebuild.
And when it's all ready, he's either getting dumped or literally hurt.
I really doubt that. He was there for the glory years...
Then we should see that in 2019. If you're paying Eli, you're doing it to win. Otherwise it makes zero sense.
This is my feeling as well. The RT will probably be the pick at 17 or 37 and the WR will be a 3rd or 4th rounder. Hopefully they get a WR with size.
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I'm starting to think Gettleman actually hates Manning.
He's clearly the bridge from putrid to the future.
Along the way he's just taking a beating on the ride of this understandably slow rebuild.
And when it's all ready, he's either getting dumped or literally hurt.
I really doubt that. He was there for the glory years...
And yet Manning gets to get his legacy and his body batted around in the lean years.
But hey maybe the incomparible Corey Coleman and Jawill Davis will step right up and not get cut or hurt a knee dancing.
What doNJ ypu think? If do..13-3 sb championship? Or nothing less than a run in playoffs? Sjould be exciting to watch
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If this team were well coached I'd feel fine going into the season. It hasn't been, though.
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Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
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Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
"Let's see what happens," couldn't sum up the vision for this team any better.
Right? Have they made any two moves under Gettleman that compliment one another?
Keaton you will need it for any QB. Let him play and grab the future next year
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Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
Best WR in the game? What measure are you using for that statement? LMAO..
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In comment 14335243 Ron from Ninerland said:
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Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Great post!
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But it still is a bummer. Oh well. Trot Eli out there for one last painful season on his resume.
I can't think of an offseason in the last decade that has began so brutally.
This nails it.
As far as, 'let's see what happens', we've said that for 7 straight years now and are 20 games under .500 in this time period with Eli now older than he was in the previous seasons, and with less offensive weapons than ever. Imagine being that lost to say, 'lets see what happens.' But hey, one more sub .500 year is fine by me. Just sucks for Eli himself and his career record. But, oh well. No sympathy from me in the least.
These stories mean nothing. Even if they pay him the bonus now a lot can happen before the season.
This.
Although why he wants to stay is beyond me. With the money he’s already made, how is it worth it for him to try and prop up the team—again—all the while the team punching bag?
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In comment 14335243 Ron from Ninerland said:
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Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
It does matter when you tie the last two years of moves together.
I’d bet them not taking a QB is more before they don’t want the fan backlash than not liking them. We all saw the reaction when they benched them. They saw the Odell reaction, you think they’re going to anger those fans again by drafting Eli’s replacement? No shot, not on thin skinned Mara’s watch.
Knowing the competitor Eli is, and he is an absolute competitor, I cannot for the life of me understand why he’d want to Quarterback this team for one last throwaway season.
Knowing the competitor Eli is, and he is an absolute competitor, I cannot for the life of me understand why he’d want to Quarterback this team for one last throwaway season.
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...
Don't worry, we'll be good again soon and you can pull your Houdini act...
Thank you. He needs to be severely punished
...they need to get a right tackle and wide receiver "for Eli Manning."
Rather, they need to get both for the TEAM and for whomever is under center.
At this stage in his career, Eli Manning is on the team for two reasons:
(1) Giants management feels he gives them the best chance to win the most games in 2019;
(2) The Giants are very loyal to their star citizen and future HOF QB, and with only one year left in his career they do not want to dump him unceremoniously.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
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You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
I agree with Montana. Eli looked better the second half of the season with some improvement in the OLine play. It was the defense that killed us the second half of the season. get hime the RT and another WR or TE.
1+
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A viable alternative before they release him? I can only see them releasing him if they trade for Rosen.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
Oh please! You’re comparing the importance of QB to other positional players?
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In comment 14335243 Ron from Ninerland said:
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Right now the don't have another QB, not even a decent backup. Maybe the draft/sign/trade for one, maybe they don't. Even DG can't be sure at this point.
I don't think a single person on this site is truly surprised.
More like disappointed the Giants might not wait out a few days and see if a Fitzpatrick, McCown, or Taylor is available at a significant saving to baby sit this obvious tear down.
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Chris -- you are one of the better posters through and through on this site -- and that is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen posted here.
You know very well it's not about a mythical free agent, it's that the money rolls over and can be used to bolster the team at any point.
And good grief -- they aren't the New York Elis. No one let him down -- the management and staff let the organization and fans down by not producing a winner
If this teams is making personnel decisions because of loyalty and accomplishments from a decade ago, yikes.
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In comment 14335375 BigK said:
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A viable alternative before they release him? I can only see them releasing him if they trade for Rosen.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
Oh please! You’re comparing the importance of QB to other positional players?
So the QB position is important but we’ve put up with sub par performance at a premium price for three seasons, and that’s ok. Got it.
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is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
You should get pissed if they were to extend him.
Now they need to find his replacement either through the draft or trade for Rosen.
Build the OL and DL with all of these draft choices. This has been where DG shines.
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In comment 14335377 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14335375 BigK said:
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A viable alternative before they release him? I can only see them releasing him if they trade for Rosen.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
Oh please! You’re comparing the importance of QB to other positional players?
So the QB position is important but we’ve put up with sub par performance at a premium price for three seasons, and that’s ok. Got it.
MAINLY BECAUSE OF THE OL. Is that loud enough? Continue to fix that and we can be productive with Eli, his successor and SB controlling things in and out of the backfield
But this front office isn’t that forward thinking I guess.
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In comment 14335382 Diver_Down said:
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is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
You’re too fucking rational. You need a break from here
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
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Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
As DG should
But this front office isn’t that forward thinking I guess.
How much is too much? Right now, there is an estimated $90M under the cap for 2020.
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In comment 14335373 Mike from Ohio said:
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Who are overpaid and in some instances not. There was no viable replacement for OBJ but we could get rid of him. There is no viable replacement for Eli, so therefore we need to hold onto him.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
Right or wrong, you can take your second paragraph and imply the inverse. DG is given free reign to craft the roster as he sees fit, but when it comes to decisions such as OBJ, you can be sure that he is getting approval from Mara/Tisch.
As DG should
I 100% agree. Some will complain that there are "too many cooks in the kitchen", but seeking a consensus from ownership as it pertains to key decisions is good business.
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The ability to roll over that empty cap space will be huge for next year when we have a ton of money to spend.
But this front office isn’t that forward thinking I guess.
How much is too much? Right now, there is an estimated $90M under the cap for 2020.
$107 million is better than $90 million. You’d rather have less cap space for what reason?
In 2018 the Titans were able to spend $207 million against an $177 million cap. There’s a thread comparing us to the 2016 Browns, well in the 2018 off season they rolled over $60 million in cap. When trying to take full advantage of Barkley’s skills why wouldn’t you want as much cap space as possible?
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The ability to roll over that empty cap space will be huge for next year when we have a ton of money to spend.
But this front office isn’t that forward thinking I guess.
How much is too much? Right now, there is an estimated $90M under the cap for 2020.
And that 90M puts the Giants at just 8th overall in the league -- and every team with more money has a better roster than them.
When you are coming off back-to-back last places years and have a holes at every level of your roster -- there's no such as too much cap room.
The Giants barely have any good players -- it's loco -- but that money will be spent on getting more.
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Get him a RT and a decent WR and lets see what happens
Good.. hahahahaa a RT and a decent WR let’s see what happens? They just traded the best WR in the game and there were 11 offensive lines that ranked worse then the giants and two of them were playoff teams that won more then 10 games when is this washed up QB ever to blame?
This is typical of the dumbasserie that has become epidemic on this site lately...
Which 2 playoff teams had "worse OL's"...???
Look at DG's history. There is no evidence that he has shown a propensity to spend $100M in cap space in a given season. For every dollar "saved and carried over", is just another dollar in Mara/Tisch's Scrooge McDuck fantasy of swimming in gold.
There’s zero ways having $107 million vs $90 million isn’t an advantage.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
I personally don't.
Of the many that do, lots seem to simply ignore the fact that unused salary cap space carries forward from year to year.
"What else were we going to use it for this year?" is literally a nonsense justification.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
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In comment 14335375 BigK said:
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A viable alternative before they release him? I can only see them releasing him if they trade for Rosen.
Was there one before they traded Odell or Vernon?
Oh please! You’re comparing the importance of QB to other positional players?
Yeah that one was a head scratcher!
I'll never understand why people can't wrap their head around this.
If you want him gone, just admit it's because it's for the sake of him being gone. Don't disguise your pitchfork, point it.
There is not one sensible reason to dump Eli Manning for Ryan Fitzpatrick or anybody like him.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
In Carolina DG was known for his complete lack of sentimentality when it came to cutting ties with players. It seems clear to me that the decision to keep Eli is being dictated by Mara. I think the next football decision Mara is involved in that turns out well will be the first.
I agree with those that say it really doesn’t matter this year because they don’t need cap space and they are very clearly not trying to put a competitive product on the field. The bigger issue is that when they do acquire his heir apparent, it seems we will have to lose a year on his first contract while he learns from Eli. That will be a mistake.
I don't necessarily agree. I think it's as likely as not that they will throw Fromm immediately into the wolves.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
That's fine. Kyler Murray's size gives me pause but if that's what they want to do I'm fine with it.
One way or another, we need a vet QB on the roster. I see no reason why Kyler Murray can't be on the roster while Manning plays out the last year of his deal.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
They want to build a team and that is done largely through the draft. Plus, most of the 1st tier FA's are already committed, so they will be looking largely for depth. Not building the team that way. Murray would cost resources so you wold create a choice by getting Murray and not filling holes or filling holes and waiting on the better QB next year.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
Odds are, we just wind up winning 6-7 games with Eli, a year of Murray gets burned, year 2 of Barkley gets burned... and for what?
If Beckham was still here and I thought we could really field a legitimately good offense - then, the Eli route would make a little more sense to me.
But, if we're keeping Eli, it means we're trying to win - but we simultaneously just took away his biggest pass game weapon - and are almost setting him up to fail. Do we really want to watch Eli spend another year here losing games every week and having fans blame him for it and his legacy continue to just devolve further into this shitty abyss?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.Win with Eli and develop his drafted replacement if possible. “Over and over again” will continue if he doesn’t have a good OL to work with. We’re improving there. If solidified further, we should be fine with Eli and SB. If not, then yes, “over and over.”
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
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and that's the crux of this argument.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
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In comment 14335588 Britt in VA said:
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and that's the crux of this argument.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
Not sure if I understand your question completely. But you should think of it this way -- Eli's cash earnings for 2019 will be about $17M. If you cut him now, you will have $17M more to spend next year than if you keep him through this year.
Of course, some offset for whatever you pay the QB that you add in his place. According to most suggestions, a rookie, so not much.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
So that they can use all of their picks to "build around Eli" - still.
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In comment 14335382 Diver_Down said:
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is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
Agreed. Eli is not a choice. He is a lack of options. We have no one else. No QB this year probably means he's extended for one more year.
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
The object is to win. Period. In the NFL there is only this year. If the object was not to win, no Eli.
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
They wouldn't use the money to go for another player? Are they going to stuff pillows with it?
The Giants have a massive talent deficit, a refrain we've been hammered with as a defense of Manning's average play during many of the last several years.
The Giants will return to being good the same way all other good teams do it; draft well and spend wisely, including paying really good young players a lot of money.
Paying old average players a lot of money is never part of a good plan.
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What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
It becomes a vicious cycle.
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In comment 14335620 arcarsenal said:
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
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In comment 14335742 Big Blue '56 said:
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
Tearing it down makes sense at that point. Eli being here was all about winning, so trade OBJ? Those two are not in congruence at all, so then what?
Enter a draft with huge question marks as prospects while riding Eli to another sub .500 shitshow.
I'll always root for Eli, but thats not the point.
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In comment 14335763 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
If so’it’s a no-brainer!!!
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In comment 14335362 trueblueinpw said:
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You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
But a QB? Now that is the real test.
From your lips...
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
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he is our only QB right now. Did you want the Giants to cut him yesterday? Then what? We have no QB and it also then tips our hand on what we are targeting in the draft.
Did anyone here think the Giants would just dump Eli even if we drafted someone with the #6 pick?
It's not a zero sum game -- the Giants can sign a different, cheaper quarterback to babysit.
Every other GM in the NFL knows the Giants are in the market for a quarterback at 6, if Manning is here or not.
Completely disagree..
Eli can still play and they CAN go another few seasons with him if needed. Dumping him now reduces your leverage and makes you look more desperate for a QB....period.
You may have an old shitty boat that looks like it needs to be replaced. However, once you jump into the water with no life jacket... then you will likely pay anything to get something that floats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
Give the ball to someone else, Lauletta, some Free agent, whatever. Giving Eli the ball for one more season does NOTHING to help this team out in the future. Maybe it clicks for Lauletta (it's not 100% certain that it wouldn't) or whomever you have on the field. If it does not click..you are likely to be in position to grab a guy in 2020. Eli will give you a great chance to get to 8-8..big freakin whoop.
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So, using stats is lazy, according to you - and then your justification for your Russell comp was... his stats.
Which is it?
Jeff George had a rocket arm, he played his last year @ Illinois in 1989, and his production was nothing like Haskins' was.
Josh Allen is a better comparison for Jeff George.
If you have to go back 30 years to find cautionary tales for Dwayne Haskins, you're not going to convince me.
As for Darnold - we didn't take him and I am fine with having taken Barkley. We don't get to rewrite history now.
Quite a few analysts and scouts have Haskins going in the top 10, so you'd have to ask all of those guys how they arrived at that conclusion.
You seem to trust your untrained eye over the consensus field, so, if that's the route you want to go - go for it.
Just picking out random stuff like claiming his WR's were so commonly wide open and easy targets is a waste of time. Haskins has proven to be very accurate in the short/midrange game and his deep ball will be solid once he cleans up the footwork on plays where he needs to quickly reset on the move and throw a strike.
These guys are called prospects for a reason. You're going to be able to find flaws in any of them.
Even Darnold had concerns - tons of turnovers. As a rookie he got picked off 15 times and fumbled 5 more in 13 games. It'll be a question until it isn't.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with, and there's no guarantee that any of the 2020 guys are going to be better than these guys.
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I'd seriously caution against trying to project rookie QB classes entire seasons out. That landscape changes far too much during the course of the year.
Actually I wasn't using stats, I'm comparing careers on one year of great play (I just gave his stats as an example/comparison), largely based on the surrounding team.
I also agree that Murray might be great, I think he has a unique skill set, he won't be there by the time the Giants draft and may largely scare the Giants because of size (seeing as they are very traditional). I also agree that waiting until 2021 for a qb is a poor plan, unless circumstances happen to dictate that by future result. I do not think its far fetched or even irresponsible to plan around a move for a 2020 qb, including Tua or Fromm or Herbert. I also do not think Haskins warrants a top 10 pick, I could be wrong I don't know, if they draft him one would hope they did their homework. Remember, DG has never been in a lead role to select a franchise qb.
We could try to go that route - I just would worry that we are going to win a few meaningless games again, put ourselves in the middle of the 1st rd, and then need to spend more just to get up within range to get one of those QB's than we would this year to get Murray.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Its like I wrote this post and you signed your name on it! Well done, glad we are seeing eye-to-eye on the most important topic facing the team.
Soon you will be adding "..." to your posts
Hah, I actually found myself doing that a few times recently!
I was like "oh boy, this looks like the work of Googs"
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...
Don't worry, we'll be good again soon and you can pull your Houdini act...
LOL!
Coffee straight out the nose!
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
And that would be what we call, quarterback hell
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
I don't think I would categorize a lot of this as fact, ut it sure sounds more likely than not. And that is alarming because it's a nightmare scenario.
I really can't get my arms around this idea that Eli is going to be this great mentor. Based on what? He sure isn't in the same league as a QB thinker like his savant brother. And his decision making on the field is replete with some horrible decisions. I'd rather that be done by the person who specializes in this kind of thing - the QB coach.
- Odds are we don't draft a QB this year.
- DG has said he wants Eli to mentor a new young QB
- If we draft QB in 2020 DG will want Eli to mentor him.
So sorry to say it folks but the facts show that it's most likely that Eli has AT LEAST two more years as Giants QB.
And if we don't draft a QB in 2020 he probably has at least THREE more years.
Maybe in three years the team will be up to the standard Manning deserves -- and the Giant will finally settle their debt for the misfortune they've put Manning through.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
Peyton - better QB in better situations. But, his football IQ has been lauded by most people in the league.
I'm not attacking Eli's intellect. But on the football field, Eli is the gun-slinger, ala Favre, willing to take on greater risk for the greater reward. That's always been his instinct. I think we can agree there have been times on the football field where Eli threw out the easier, better option for the riskier, poorer option. Without that, and this is the great irony, we probably don't win one of those SBs.
I don't think that type of QB style can be taught - obviously.
Regardless, like I said, leave that mentoring to a QB coach. They focus on the the game, decision making techniques, fundamentals, etc.
Steve Young will tell that he learned that some stuff from Montana, but considerably more from Paul Holmgren.
You mean, it’s that simple? Any chance that’s comprehended here? 😎
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
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for this year. And then he is a free agent. I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Whether we draft someone or not in April, he has one year left on the payroll. After that, he's gone with no dead money and a ton of cap space. Either April pick starts over or we draft one in April 2020.
We will have tons of money in 2020 and we can definetely out pay everyone else and ourselves to make sure Eli stays a Giant.. Also we can find another 30+ old slow WR to extend..
New Giants are stupid as hell..
I’m not generally a gambler, but with all of BBI as my witness, I will bet you that you are full of shit and that neither of those two things happen.
Punting on 2 entire seasons to go after Trevor Lawrence isn't going to be a plan I can get on board with
I love Tua.. I'm an Alabama fan. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Murray was the better NFL QB.
I still think one of the more logical plans would be to sign Remmers now, spend the 3 on a Rosen trade, go ER/DL @ 6, target Andre Dillard or DK Metcalf @ 17, do the inverse @ 37 (OL/WR depending on who was there/who we didn't take @ 17), and focus the rest of the draft on mostly defense.
Wouldn't that be a better football team than the one we're probably going to saddle ourselves with instead?
Wow arc, you are in rare form today... Take a deep breath! ;)
I think we agree on the perfect scenario of signing Remmers, and trading a 3rd for Rosen. I really don't want to trade more than a 3rd, and don't think he should cost more than that. He is tainted goods at this point.
I think there are some flaws in Haskins' game, but I agree nothing more than a typical prospect. I've pointed out flaws before, but I never focused on them as a reason I for not drafting him.
As most of you know by now, I am an analytics guy... When you go back an look at QB picked in the 1st or 2nd round the indicators that most correlates with NFL success are
1. Number of games started with somewhere around 27 being the inflection point
2. Assuming 27+ starts, level of competition
3. Assuming 27+ starts and high level of comp, completion %
After that all other indicators fall off a cliff.
The rationale for number of games started is that the more game you have of them on film the better you can evaluate them. What's more, opposing teams have had at least a year to analyze them and come up with defenive game plans to stop them. If the prospect is able to adjust their game and take it to another level, then you really know he has something.
Level of competition, is related to game starts, but its important that you get to see and evaluate the player in stressful situations. Heavy pass rushes, better secondary players, tighter windows... Again, it allows the scout the opportunity to better evaluate the prospect.
Completion percentage is self explanatory... But it turns out, that without the game starts and level of competition, completion percentage on its own has virtually zero correlation to NFL success.
And that is the rub. Haskins may be great, or he might be like 1000 other 1 year QBs. Everybody was high on Herbert at the beginning of the year. I withheld my judgement of him for about the first 5 or 6 games. And what I saw, was a guy not adjusting to defenses, and not good at going through progressions. But we only learned this AFTER Herbert has played in about 18 or 19 games... Only having 14 games, Haskins is a HUGE risk. It's what we don't know about Haskins that scares me far more than what we do know.
With that said, we have seen 23 games from Tua, and 29 from Fromm. I am not sure why, there has been some criticism leveled at Fromm this past year, but to my eyes he has made steady progression. Completion rate is up, Td rate is up, Yards/Att is up, and interception rate is down. And watching his games, I thought he looked more confident and decisive. I also like his size, Tua is a more dynamic playmaker, but I have size concerns with him. Right now, I am firmly on the Fromm train. And I think he will be easier to get than Tua.
I agree that Lawrence is a too far out, and a pipe dream. Though, he would look damn good in blue!