But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
That's fine. Kyler Murray's size gives me pause but if that's what they want to do I'm fine with it.
One way or another, we need a vet QB on the roster. I see no reason why Kyler Murray can't be on the roster while Manning plays out the last year of his deal.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
They want to build a team and that is done largely through the draft. Plus, most of the 1st tier FA's are already committed, so they will be looking largely for depth. Not building the team that way. Murray would cost resources so you wold create a choice by getting Murray and not filling holes or filling holes and waiting on the better QB next year.
I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
We could go that route, Britt - I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve.
Odds are, we just wind up winning 6-7 games with Eli, a year of Murray gets burned, year 2 of Barkley gets burned... and for what?
If Beckham was still here and I thought we could really field a legitimately good offense - then, the Eli route would make a little more sense to me.
But, if we're keeping Eli, it means we're trying to win - but we simultaneously just took away his biggest pass game weapon - and are almost setting him up to fail. Do we really want to watch Eli spend another year here losing games every week and having fans blame him for it and his legacy continue to just devolve further into this shitty abyss?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.Win with Eli and develop his drafted replacement if possible. “Over and over again” will continue if he doesn’t have a good OL to work with. We’re improving there. If solidified further, we should be fine with Eli and SB. If not, then yes, “over and over.”
keeping Eli and trading Beckham makes no sense. Beckham is too much trouble to keep around—fine, then tank and get a QB or draft one this year. But to trade Beckham and actually try to win games this year without a QB in place is how you become a laughingstock franchise and a bad one for many years to come.
RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
RE: RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
RE: RE: RE: I don't think they'd use the money to go for another player though.... Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
Not sure if I understand your question completely. But you should think of it this way -- Eli's cash earnings for 2019 will be about $17M. If you cut him now, you will have $17M more to spend next year than if you keep him through this year.
Of course, some offset for whatever you pay the QB that you add in his place. According to most suggestions, a rookie, so not much.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
So that they can use all of their picks to "build around Eli" - still.
RE: RE: RE: All the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over $5M Â
is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
Agreed. Eli is not a choice. He is a lack of options. We have no one else. No QB this year probably means he's extended for one more year.
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
It doesn’t really matter who is under center. The object isn’t really to win, but to build and get people opportunities and experience. If they want to give Eli a proper farewell, that’s fine, but does he need to make 17 million to do that? I don’t know. Seems expensive for a pony show.
The object is to win. Period. In the NFL there is only this year. If the object was not to win, no Eli.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
The funny thing is that nobody really tanks in the NFL Â
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
They wouldn't use the money to go for another player? Are they going to stuff pillows with it?
The Giants have a massive talent deficit, a refrain we've been hammered with as a defense of Manning's average play during many of the last several years.
The Giants will return to being good the same way all other good teams do it; draft well and spend wisely, including paying really good young players a lot of money.
Paying old average players a lot of money is never part of a good plan.
Even if you are drafting a qb, many don’t need the mentor anymore. They have the HC, the OC, a QB coach and so on. And if you draft a qb, especially 1st round, at some point you’re going to want to see him play. Which will return us to the scenario of benching Eli again as in 2017, and him wondering what he is doing here if it’s not to win. At some point, someone else has to play QB for the New York Giants.
A more accurate headline for this thread would be: Â
ProFootballTalk quotes Dan Graziano of ESPN, who quotes anonymous sources who say the Giants will pay Eli Manning’s roster bonus.
It’s not much of a surprise anyway, but the $5MM payment is even less newsworthy as fourth-hand gossip than it would be if Dave Gettleman actually announced it.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
RE: I don't want to get caught up in this vortex again.... Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
Having Eli here just doesn't make sense. Where does another losing season with him get us? Why are we wasting more cap dollars on a farewell tour?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
I promised myself I'd stay out of these discussions moving forward.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
I've known he was going to start this year for a while. I just want to watch the Giants play with a QP that gives me an opportunity to win an important game. We disagree I'm weather weekly deal I can do that. I don't hate him I just think he's bad. Hell up and paid more than any player in the history of the NFL I don't believe he needs a farewell tours compensation. Everything in the world is a function of time. We are wasting a year of development and evaluation. For a new QB. Starting him another year potentially puts us back another year four return to respectability. It's kind of sad to watch him finish out his career this way to, sucks
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
RE: RE: RE: There's a minimum of three and up to 5 QB's in 2020 Â
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
RE: RE: RE: Arca, there are so many threads and posts on this, that I’ve forgotten Â
your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
That's fine. Kyler Murray's size gives me pause but if that's what they want to do I'm fine with it.
One way or another, we need a vet QB on the roster. I see no reason why Kyler Murray can't be on the roster while Manning plays out the last year of his deal.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
They want to build a team and that is done largely through the draft. Plus, most of the 1st tier FA's are already committed, so they will be looking largely for depth. Not building the team that way. Murray would cost resources so you wold create a choice by getting Murray and not filling holes or filling holes and waiting on the better QB next year.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
Odds are, we just wind up winning 6-7 games with Eli, a year of Murray gets burned, year 2 of Barkley gets burned... and for what?
If Beckham was still here and I thought we could really field a legitimately good offense - then, the Eli route would make a little more sense to me.
But, if we're keeping Eli, it means we're trying to win - but we simultaneously just took away his biggest pass game weapon - and are almost setting him up to fail. Do we really want to watch Eli spend another year here losing games every week and having fans blame him for it and his legacy continue to just devolve further into this shitty abyss?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.Win with Eli and develop his drafted replacement if possible. “Over and over again” will continue if he doesn’t have a good OL to work with. We’re improving there. If solidified further, we should be fine with Eli and SB. If not, then yes, “over and over.”
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
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and that's the crux of this argument.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
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In comment 14335588 Britt in VA said:
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and that's the crux of this argument.
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
This is bullshit, dude. cap space rolls forward from year to year. Wanting to keep Manning around is your right, there are crazier things that get suggested here every day. But this is just straight bullshit.
You're exactly right that spending isn't what they should be doing. SAVING is what they should be doing.
How does the cap space work with Eli leaving at the end of this season compared with whatever is rolled over? Also, wouldn't he still have dead money on the books until next year? Would the rollover be added to that?
Not sure if I understand your question completely. But you should think of it this way -- Eli's cash earnings for 2019 will be about $17M. If you cut him now, you will have $17M more to spend next year than if you keep him through this year.
Of course, some offset for whatever you pay the QB that you add in his place. According to most suggestions, a rookie, so not much.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
Why would they pass on a QB this year?
So that they can use all of their picks to "build around Eli" - still.
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In comment 14335382 Diver_Down said:
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is BBI histrionics on display. At this point, it is just an insurance payment until after the draft. A Rosen trade might be available. Haskins/Lock/Jones might be drafted. We don't know how the draft will fall. Dave isn't shopping hungry in the draft.
How’s he not shopping hungry? Everyone knows he has to take a QB one of the next two years.
If you limp into the draft with Kyle and Alex at the top of the depth chart, you are telegraphing to the other 31 teams that you "need" a QB at that moment. Yes, we need a QB to transition from Manning, but that is different than actually not having Manning on the roster. I expect that depending how the draft falls this year will determine if Eli is extended. If no QB, then Eli signs an extension for next year.
Agreed. Eli is not a choice. He is a lack of options. We have no one else. No QB this year probably means he's extended for one more year.
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
The object is to win. Period. In the NFL there is only this year. If the object was not to win, no Eli.
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
They don't need Manning's money. They're not cap strapped.
Spending to spend is what they shouldn't be doing.
They wouldn't use the money to go for another player? Are they going to stuff pillows with it?
The Giants have a massive talent deficit, a refrain we've been hammered with as a defense of Manning's average play during many of the last several years.
The Giants will return to being good the same way all other good teams do it; draft well and spend wisely, including paying really good young players a lot of money.
Paying old average players a lot of money is never part of a good plan.
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What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
Not to mention -- if the end game is that they keep telling themselves they like no QBs other than Tua/Lawrence/whoever, you need premium draft capital to get them. So you either need to:
1) lose as much as possible until then
2) spend multiple premium draft picks in the future to move up to get them.
and if you take path #2, that's less draft capital that you have to build a team around your new QB...at which time you are going to need to instead use CAP SPACE to add to your roster. You know, the kind of cap space that you can start saving immediately, because it rolls over from year to year...
Right - and you can see the flawed logic here already in this thread - "rather wait for the elite, long-term prospect" - who is that? Why are we certain that Tua/Fromm/Herbert are better prospects than Murray/Haskins/et al.?
And please don't give me the Trevor Lawrence stuff. That guy is going to be a majorly sought-after QB in the 2021 draft. There will be several teams posturing to get him and the cost to move into the 1 spot that year will likely be enormous.
Imagine putting our eggs in the basket of Trevor Lawrence, only to get leapfrogged, not even have Eli to fall back on anymore, and be completely assed out on QB. Then we'll be talking about some long-play in the 2022 draft and convince ourselves that we needed to just wait for that guy anyway...
It becomes a vicious cycle.
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In comment 14335620 arcarsenal said:
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Passing on QB this year because Eli is here is just something that makes no sense to me.
This team will not be good enough to compete for the NFCE in 2019. The defense needs about half its spots filled. We still don't have a RT. Our WR group is horrendous. OC is still a stopgap spot with Pio/Pulley.
We will see the same 6 win team, get nowhere, and then be somewhere in the middle of next year's draft and have to burn a ton of resources to move up within range of Tua/Fromm, etc anyway.
We're going to wind up painting ourselves into a bad corner by repeatedly punting on QB.
Last year was fine - but it's a hard sell for me on the "go for it with Eli" thing. How many fucking times do we need to do this before we figure out it's not getting us anywhere. We're kicking the can right down the road.
It's long term detrimental to take a QB merely because it's a bad idea to pass on one because Eli is here. Also, even at 6 wins, I don't see that as a total burn on resources to trade up. Especially considering they would not only burn up the same resources but also lose out on a better player at #6 by moving up to get Murray. I would rather spend the resources next year to take the elite player and have a long term success rate.
What happens next year when they don't like those QB's, either?
If they didn't like any of the QB's last year - don't like Haskins, Murray... or any of these guys.
Why are they suddenly going to decide they like Fromm, Tua, or Herbert other than necessity.
It's a double-edged sword. The longer you wait for the "perfect" prospect, the higher the odds become of not winding up with anyone.
It just sounds like a lot of excuse making to me for the sake of Eli Manning - which is extremely troubling. We have to stop running this ship in the name of sentimentality.
I think you're so focused on not having Eli here that nothing else would be acceptable to you.
First, you say that they are drafting to "build around Eli". The counterpoint *must* be then that if they cut Eli they would sit out the draft. Having no need to build around him and all. Of course, that is unreasonable. The reality is that they will draft to build the team, *regardless* of whether or not Eli is on it. There is very little that they would do draft-wise, that is dependent upon Eli's presence.
Second, it's pretty much universally agreed that next year's class has higher quality and also more depth than this year. It's also been stated that they need to find someone to replace Eli. In fact, they have been saying that overtly and publicly since they drafted Nassib. They know that there is more urgency now. They also know that he's not even under contract after this year. SO they are going to get a new Qb either this year or next. Waiting until next year is the wiser investment because the quality is so much higher. Plus, you build the team this with quality players, *without* wasting them in a moveup for a lesser QB and therefore make it easier for the drafted QB to step in and play earlier in his career than he otherwise might have.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
Is it pitchforks? Or is it a non-emotional discussion that the organization's approach with the player is and has been flawed and sub-optimal and that they're re-making the flawed and sub-optimal decision for a second or third time?
I'm not an Anti-Eli guy - it's bothering me more to have to watch a Giants legend just continue to be viewed as more and more of a guy who was lucky to win Super Bowls than a special, HoF player.
Projecting a QB class a year out is a dangerous game. Any of them could get hurt, struggle, etc. We could get leapfrogged in the draft and wind up empty-handed.
Do any of you guys really think we can be a playoff team this year with Eli Manning?
If you can't honestly answer yes to that - and you shouldn't be able to given how many holes and issues we still have - then why are we keeping him for another year?
Just to watch him lose 10 more games and get shit on by the media for another 6 months?
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
But getting him enables the team to cut ELi. Which is the end goal in and of itself. It's take a QB, any QB.
I'm actually okay with it (releasing Eli) but only if this year's QB is Kyle Lauletta. That, at least, preserves our long-term health and success rate.
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But there is a sensible reason to go after someone like Murray, cut bait with Eli, and use the cap savings to strengthen the rest of the team.
We'd have the QB/RB both on rookie deals and room to maneuver around them for about 4 years.
The only reason you'd keep Eli in 2019 is to try and win football games. This team isn't good enough to do that right now. We have way too many holes and still don't have enough picks/space to plug them all/fix them all.
It seems like a waste of a year to just "go for it" with Eli again.
We've been doing this over and over again. It isn't working.
Why, so you guys can bitch about the size of the contracts that need to be paid to free agents? Cap space is great if you want to try and keep your own players (so far, other than OBJ, who was promptly traded, we have not been inclined to do that) or fill a whole or maybe two once the rest of the team is built. The last time we had cap space, we gave it to Reese to fill holes on the defense.
You guys treat cap space as an end to itself. (oh, and I don't want the shrimp, sorry. He has bust written all over him)
Don't take my arguments and then conflate it with other posters' opinions.
I complained about signing Jonathan Stewart because it was fucking stupid. I didn't complain about signing Nate Solder.
I don't complain about every FA spend. Some make sense, some don't.
What I do know is that we have a LOT of holes here, and we're not going to fill them any easier by committing another 23M in cap space to Eli Manning.
But that's what we're going to do - and when we're right back here having the same discussion next year, you guys will probably tell me those QB's aren't good enough either.
He's here. He's starting. That fact needs to be accepted. He'll likely be gone at the end of next season. So you'll all get your wish less than 12 months from now. Until then, why not put the pitchforks away and just root for the guy?
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
plus, we've seen how badly you can suck and still screw yourself into the 6th-10th draft pick. Look at the prices teams have paid to get from those spots into the top 3.
But the details don't even matter. We're arguing against a reverse-engineered argument to keep Eli.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
Well, If Herbert is the third best prospect being listed around here, I don't think he's better than Murray or Haskins at all. In fact, contrary to Murray, Hebert might actually be too tall to be an effective QB (if you think I'm joking, look up the success of QBs his height, most have gone bust outside of Flacco).
That leaves Fromm and Tua as clear top prospects. If Miami continues to engage in what looks to be a legitimate tanking job, then one of those guys is likely off the board. We're then hoping to either be the second worst team or give up assets to move into position, and this assumes that no team will be ahead of us that will need a QB (say, a Bengals or a Bucs type team).
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
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In comment 14335742 Big Blue '56 said:
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your stance on whether or not you’d be ok with a Rosen trade? I know you like Haskins, but have temporarily forgotten your Rosen stance.
Rosen for a 3rd? Sign me up right now.
Make that trade, cut bait with Eli - 11 draft picks still - an additional 17M in cap space. QB is here, draft the best defensive player on the board @ 6 - get your RT @ 17 - get me a WR in the 2nd rd - and go defense heavy the rest of the way.
That's a better football team than the one we'll get with Eli this year and one better positioned for the future.
If Rosen doesn't pan out, we're not even screwed. We'll be able to manage that no problem.
Not sure a 3rd would get it done. Would you be ok with a 2nd?
If they do move him - I think a 3rd has a good shot at getting it done, but if I had to burn a 2 instead, I'd still probably do it.
Tearing it down makes sense at that point. Eli being here was all about winning, so trade OBJ? Those two are not in congruence at all, so then what?
Enter a draft with huge question marks as prospects while riding Eli to another sub .500 shitshow.
I'll always root for Eli, but thats not the point.
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In comment 14335763 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14335753 Bill L said:
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that are better than any of the 2019 class.
That's a hell of a lot of leap-frogging to shut us out. For us to miss out, we would have to nearly win the SB (which would piss the anti-Eli people off tremendously). At a minimum, we would need to make the playoffs in order to not have a high percentage shot at getting one of those QB's. And that is apparently impossible because we are a losing team with (or, as some would say, because of) Eli.
I think you're caught in two contradictory places. Either we win and can't draft a QB without prohibitive cost or we're losers and fall into a QB. It has to be one or the other.
5 QB's in 2020 who are better than any of these guys?
Where is this coming from? You're completely overshooting on the 2020 class to make a point. I'm not sure Herbert is even as good a prospect as Haskins right now. He's more Josh Allen than anything else. Raw - under 60% - struggling with reads and progressions...
Herbert was ranked ahead of Haskins before he re-commited to school.
That means absolutely nothing. Haskins was a heisman finalist and kicked ass all year - Herbert struggled and wasn't even in the conversation.
Rankings don't mean shit to me - do it on the field.
Haskins was also on a far and away better team. I've watched Haskins now quite a bit, sorta like I did with Davis Webb when he was the next BBI savior. I don't know how anyone can watch extended clips of Haskins and come away thinking he is the answer and a sure fire top 10 pick. What I saw was a qb (1) who didn't move around well (2) rarely faced pressure (3) threw many of his passes to receivers who were open by 2-3 yards and (4) threw many of his passes inside 15 yards (in fact, someone posted a state supporting that within the last few weeks). You know who else did those exact same things and put up big numbers in limited sample sizes, Jamarcus Russell Chris Weinke, Jeff George...
This isn't to say he can't be a good or great NFL qb, he just doesn't jump off the screen like some others I've seen. I am just having trouble seeing why everyone is so enamored with this qb class, especially a guy like Haskins, when BBI put up such resistance to clearly better qbs in 2018 (and what looks like 2020) other than people are now realizing Eli is near done and this is a rebuild and are rationalizing why they should overdraft a lesser prospect. In fact, I've read now how Haskins would have been the 5th ranked qb in the 2018 class- so tell me how it makes sense to draft that guy at 6 who likely goes back end of the first round last year?
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
If so’it’s a no-brainer!!!
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In comment 14335362 trueblueinpw said:
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You guys kicking Eli in the balls, who exactly do you want at the QB1? Bridgewater? Foles? Webb? Just don’t understand why people don’t see that Eli’s our best available option. But if anyone has another idea, by all means put it in a post because it would be great to read something other than the same old complaints.
Best option for what?
Competing for a SB? Competing for a division title? Competing for a wildcard? Getting to .500? Getting to 7 wins?
Finally, when is having an extra $17M of available cap space to invest a bad thing?
I look forward to nothing substantive.
You aren't going to change the group of delusional posters collective minds. The blind faith is real.
The blind faith is unreal.
If this is Gettleman's "plan" than nobody on this board should have any confidence in this organization to find the right heir apparent.
He's never had to select one. And when he had his first bite at that apple, he took the easy, safe route with Barkley. As Gettleman said "even his mother" could have made the pick." RBs are probably the easiest talent to spot of every position.
But a QB? Now that is the real test.
From your lips...
Louis Riddick is on record saying he doesn't even think Haskins makes it to 6.
Should I trust his evaluation as a guy who does stuff like this for a living or just trust your opinion because you didn't like what you saw and are arbitrarily deciding that Haskins would have been the 5th guy off the board last year when that isn't universally agreed upon?
It's fine to have that opinion - but don't frame it as a fact. Not everyone sees it that way.
Mayfield and Darnold are the two guys I am certain I'd have taken over Haskins if he was in last year's draft. I don't believe in Josh Allen at all. Lamar Jackson can't handle several NFL throws and will be a gadget player until he proves otherwise. Josh Rosen is a total incomplete with character and physical concerns.
BTW - JaMarcus Russell. Stop. Haskins' production in his first full year as a starter blows Russell's best year away. I get it - both guys are black - but they're not the same prospect and the comparison sucks. Russell was also like 3 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Haskins. He was like a linebacker trying to play QB - and the Raiders were the team that blew their 1st overall pick on him. So, that shouldn't surprise anyone. There are enough stupid decisions by the Raiders over the last couple of decades to last a lifetime.
Not sure what the parallels to Jeff George are - but I don't see that either.
Haskins may bomb, he may be great - he may be somewhere in between. But these lazy, arbitrary comparisons aren't doing much convincing.
Whats lazy- and downright offensive- is to compare Haskins to Russell because of race (which is what you were directly saying). Where I actually see in that comparison is a qb who had one explosive year at LSU (28tds and 8 ints his last year), who was surrounded by talent who made him look a lot better than he actually was. So I think there is actually some valid comparison and concern. My major concern is guys who have one great year and then flame out in the NFL, like Jeff George or Andrew Ware or Mark Sanchez. The NFL is littered with these types throughout history.
If you want to call it lazy,that's fine, I call looking at college stats and drawing a conclusion lazy. I am not sure how anyone watches Haskins in college and draws a conclusion that he is a sure fire top 10 pick. And if you are also saying Darnold was a better prospect then aren't you also saying the Giants are settling for a lesser qb then they could have had?