for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

A somewhat positive outlook

PetesHereNow : 3/13/2019 11:34 pm
OK, now that you all are hopefully done crying that OBJ was traded, can I chime in with my thoughts?

Eli has been at his best in 2 situations -- when he has a good running game where defenses will respect the play-action, and when he has teammates that will rush the passer and play sound defense.

OBJ is a tremendous football player/talent, but sometimes, you have to break a few eggs to make some omelettes. When it's cold and windy in November/December in Giants Stadium, you aren't bombing it down the field to OBJ. What you are doing is running the ball with the rookie of the year, letting Eli/Eli's successor run play action, and taking your shots when you can, which leads me to my next point:

If you are going to play Giants football, you need to be able to stop the run and rush the passer. We couldn't really do either last year once Harrison was traded. But, Harrison is not going to be on the next great Giants team as big run stuffing DTs with bad knees don't age well. So that now means, what do we do, Pete?

Fact 1: The Giants have been absolutely horrendous on defense since 2012, with the lone exception being 2016, when the defense was very good but didn't have a lot of depth (witness in the playoff game, DRC went out, Wade went in, Aaron Rodgers went nuts on him).

Fact 2: The Giants also learned that throwing money at guys may work in the short term, but to have longterm success, you need to draft well.

Fact 3: Since 2012, the franchise has drafted horribly.

Knowing what we know about the OBJ issue, yes he was a tremendous Giants player. Yes, his off the field antics were something that I'm sure made fans and ownership cringe. I'm sure his interview where he wasn't sure he wanted to be in NY made Mara and DG cringe. I'm also sure that his cramps/onside kick business decision at the end of the Bears game/lack of desire to play out the season rubbed everyone the wrong way. So, you try to cut bait, get another top 20 pick, an up and coming young safety, and another top 100 pick.

You also now have 12 picks to re-make the defense and maybe take a few shots at future QB to succeed Eli and WR to possibly replace Beckham's production somewhat.

Yes, there are a lot of holes on this roster, and yes Eli is overpaid for his position, but let's see what happens if Eli actually has a pocket to step up into. If it doesn't work or if he gets hurt, he retires and we have a boatload of cap room and high picks in 2020. If it works, we have young building blocks on defense, a boatload of cap room, and middling picks in 2020.

But, Pete, who plays QB in 2020? Maybe they love Murray or Haskins or Daniel Jones or they think they can persuade Russell Wilson to sign with us after Eli retires. Whatever happens, Eli's successor might not be stepping into a complete shit show.

But, why don't we release Eli now and save the money? Because they still think he can play a bit if you keep him clean and give him a running game. Maybe when DG had his post season talk with Eli, Eli took him in the post and said, "hey, I need to be in 2nd and 4-6, not 2nd and 12, Dave."

But, now for the first time in 6 years, the band aid is coming off, and we've got a guy in here that can actually draft, and is not afraid to admit his mistakes. It's kinda liberating to see that sort of decisive action.
Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2019 11:38 pm : link
This is Eli's final year. They're not even extending him; but taking the full cap hit this year, and (finally) washing their hands of him/that era and moving on, mercifully, about a few years late, but moving on the nonetheless.

Hallelujah!
Excellent post.  
Red Dog : 3/13/2019 11:39 pm : link
.
RE: Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
Giants38 : 3/13/2019 11:40 pm : link
In comment 14335205 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
This is Eli's final year. They're not even extending him; but taking the full cap hit this year, and (finally) washing their hands of him/that era and moving on, mercifully, about a few years late, but moving on the nonetheless.

Hallelujah!


We don't actually know that yet. There was a lot of noise about Eli receiving an extension today, so I wouldn't put it past this front office just yet.
RE: RE: Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2019 11:41 pm : link
In comment 14335209 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14335205 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This is Eli's final year. They're not even extending him; but taking the full cap hit this year, and (finally) washing their hands of him/that era and moving on, mercifully, about a few years late, but moving on the nonetheless.

Hallelujah!



We don't actually know that yet. There was a lot of noise about Eli receiving an extension today, so I wouldn't put it past this front office just yet.


And it didn't come to fruition.
RE: RE: RE: Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
Giants38 : 3/13/2019 11:43 pm : link
In comment 14335210 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14335209 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14335205 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This is Eli's final year. They're not even extending him; but taking the full cap hit this year, and (finally) washing their hands of him/that era and moving on, mercifully, about a few years late, but moving on the nonetheless.

Hallelujah!



We don't actually know that yet. There was a lot of noise about Eli receiving an extension today, so I wouldn't put it past this front office just yet.



And it didn't come to fruition.


Not yet. JTGiants suggested big things may still come. I don't know whether that statement is accurate, but that does not mean we are out of the woods. Just two days ago we heard Gettleman was asking for the moon in an OBJ trade. A day later he was traded for far less than that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2019 11:43 pm : link
In comment 14335216 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14335210 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 14335209 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14335205 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


This is Eli's final year. They're not even extending him; but taking the full cap hit this year, and (finally) washing their hands of him/that era and moving on, mercifully, about a few years late, but moving on the nonetheless.

Hallelujah!



We don't actually know that yet. There was a lot of noise about Eli receiving an extension today, so I wouldn't put it past this front office just yet.



And it didn't come to fruition.



Not yet. JTGiants suggested big things may still come. I don't know whether that statement is accurate, but that does not mean we are out of the woods. Just two days ago we heard Gettleman was asking for the moon in an OBJ trade. A day later he was traded for far less than that.


"Not yet." Uh huh.
...  
christian : 3/13/2019 11:47 pm : link
For fun I'm going to dig up some threads from last offseason that said basically this -- except without having arguably the worst WR on paper in the NFL today.

The Giants have improved exactly one offensive position so far, and taken a major step back at one.

After all the churn, cash, and picks Gettleman improved 3 offensive positions last year. Let's see if going into week 1 that's been replicated this time around.
Not sure why things need to be invented to help support points  
jcn56 : 3/14/2019 12:00 am : link
You're not bombing it down the field to Beckham when it's cold and windy?

For starters - why not? And second - a big part of his success was short passes with YAC.
Remember when Beckham  
WillVAB : 3/14/2019 12:30 am : link
Made that sweet one handed catch vs Dallas in a game they still lost?

Good times.

RE: Remember when Beckham  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/14/2019 12:38 am : link
In comment 14335252 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Made that sweet one handed catch vs Dallas in a game they still lost?

Good times.


Remember all of those awesome Barkley runs last year...and they still lost 11 of those games. Get ready for more of that next year, too. And possibly even more after that as the new QB adjusts to the NFL. Multiple years of his prime flushed down the toilet.

Even better times.

RE: RE: Remember when Beckham  
christian : 3/14/2019 12:39 am : link
In comment 14335258 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14335252 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Made that sweet one handed catch vs Dallas in a game they still lost?

Good times.




Remember all of those awesome Barkley runs last year...and they still lost 11 of those games. Get ready for more of that next year, too. And possibly even more after that as the new QB adjusts to the NFL. Multiple years of his prime flushed down the toilet.

Even better times.


Remember when the Giants won 8 games in 2 years?

Bestest times.
RE: Not sure why things need to be invented to help support points  
PetesHereNow : 3/14/2019 1:18 am : link
In comment 14335238 jcn56 said:
Quote:
You're not bombing it down the field to Beckham when it's cold and windy?

For starters - why not? And second - a big part of his success was short passes with YAC.


What I was getting at is that Gettleman clearly is subscribing to a change in offensive philosophy.

Perhaps Giants feel more strongly that Beckham’s injuries have contributed to a situation in which he is no longer the guy who takes a 5 yard slant to the end zone.

Perhaps it is true that Shurmur went to bat for Beckham before the season and during one of his cramps/halftime exits, he told Shurmur to go fck off.

Perhaps, mgmt feels like the path to the next Giants successful team does not include a dynamic WR that missed 16 games in the last 2 seasons when the WR’s whole skill set is based on quick and sudden moves. Maybe they think they got the best out of Beckham as he is, and that next offseason, they wouldn’t get a 1, a young player, and a 3 for him.

Perhaps when you add all these things together, it adds up to a trade of a fan favorite and half the NFL world scratching their heads.
Good OP Pete  
montanagiant : 3/14/2019 1:24 am : link
Don't let the negative Nancy's bring you down.
RE: ...  
PetesHereNow : 3/14/2019 1:34 am : link
In comment 14335219 christian said:
Quote:
For fun I'm going to dig up some threads from last offseason that said basically this -- except without having arguably the worst WR on paper in the NFL today.

The Giants have improved exactly one offensive position so far, and taken a major step back at one.

After all the churn, cash, and picks Gettleman improved 3 offensive positions last year. Let's see if going into week 1 that's been replicated this time around.


That worst WR corps on paper was part of an offense that put up a lot of points on 3 playoff teams in the last 3 games. Plus, like you mentioned, let’s see what happens the rest of the offseason.
Too early to tell what the Giants will be this year  
George from PA : 3/14/2019 4:25 am : link
I hope they can still manage some smart moves in FA. I like everone else have been disappointed to date...but we still have not started spending for FA. DO NOT PANIC! We do not need stupid signing....so I can wait.

Losing that RT back to Carolina was disappointing. I want starting OL fixed this year.

Draft has become the most important in franchise history
RE: RE: RE: RE: Even they know they aren't winning anything this year.  
section125 : 3/14/2019 4:47 am : link
In comment 14335216 Giants38 said:
Quote:

Not yet. JTGiants suggested big things may still come. I don't know whether that statement is accurate, but that does not mean we are out of the woods. Just two days ago we heard Gettleman was asking for the moon in an OBJ trade. A day later he was traded for far less than that.


He may have been asking the moon and actually got it. Point is nobody here or in the media knows just what the moon is. We at BBI said it had to be 2 1sts and next years 2 or 3. In reality, they got 2 1st and this year's 3rd. Peppers is a 1st. This years 3rd is worth more than next years 3rd and maybe 2nd because it is this year. And players drafted this year begin to help right away. Everyone here was clamoring that SF was going to give us #2 and their 2nd plus next years #1. The return kept going up. Several more knowledgeable posters said that was fantasy.
Again, just because we at BBI thought OBJ was going to net huge returns doesn't mean it is true. How many people get what they think their trade in is worth at the car dealer?
I was a big defender of Odell. It is not like I was beating a drum to get rid of him like some others. Even the day of the trade I was against one except when the rumor came out abouts SF's 1st at #2 and their second.
Lol so the NFL has  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 3/14/2019 7:29 am : link
transitioned into a spread type passing league, where the best teams can put up 40-50 on a given night.

DG wants us to be a running team. Thanks Dave. Can't wait to watch the 1983 Giants.
I applaud your work trying to polish this turd  
Heisenberg : 3/14/2019 7:32 am : link
.
RE: RE: Remember when Beckham  
DonnieD89 : 3/14/2019 7:33 am : link
In comment 14335258 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14335252 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Made that sweet one handed catch vs Dallas in a game they still lost?

Good times.




Remember all of those awesome Barkley runs last year...and they still lost 11 of those games. Get ready for more of that next year, too. And possibly even more after that as the new QB adjusts to the NFL. Multiple years of his prime flushed down the toilet.

Even better times.


Umm...excuse me, but Barkley did not play defense for the Giants and the Giants' defensive pretty much sucked last years.
RE: Lol so the NFL has  
DonnieD89 : 3/14/2019 7:38 am : link
In comment 14335398 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
transitioned into a spread type passing league, where the best teams can put up 40-50 on a given night.

DG wants us to be a running team. Thanks Dave. Can't wait to watch the 1983 Giants.


Have you ever thought that maybe the opposing defenses are more predicated towards pass defense? Its possible that a running offense or 12 personnel offense may brutalize these pass oriented defenses. The pendulum swings all the time.
It’s hard to have a positive thread and a discussion on it...  
dep026 : 3/14/2019 7:40 am : link
When the same posters come to these threads and say the same things over and over and over and over again. We get it. The Giants stink. The QB stinks. The coach stinks. The GM stinks. The owner stinks.... blah blah blah.

You know what? Some of us are going to watch the games, do this thing call cheering for them to win, and if not... look forward to the next week. If the Giants losing causes you this muc sadness, I’d advise to take up another sport.

As far as the OP, great post!
RE: RE: Lol so the NFL has  
section125 : 3/14/2019 8:10 am : link
In comment 14335428 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
In comment 14335398 Tim in Eternal Blue said:


Quote:


transitioned into a spread type passing league, where the best teams can put up 40-50 on a given night.

DG wants us to be a running team. Thanks Dave. Can't wait to watch the 1983 Giants.



Have you ever thought that maybe the opposing defenses are more predicated towards pass defense? Its possible that a running offense or 12 personnel offense may brutalize these pass oriented defenses. The pendulum swings all the time.


Wonder if Tim thought about the 1986 Giants running game instead of the 1983 version....actually that 1986 version exists today - the Dallas Cowboys.
Remember  
WillVAB : 3/14/2019 9:05 am : link
When Beckham caught that sweet TD and pretended to piss like a dog in the end zone in a game they still lost?

Good times.

Now that he’s going to the dawg pound maybe that can be his signature move!
OP reasoning is flawed  
giantstock : 3/14/2019 9:16 am : link
As of this moment 60% of the OLINe is subpar and nearly all the defense is subpar. And each year Eli is going to struggle more with his age.

This upcoming season if you think the entire defense can be fixed and the OLINe rebuilt enough to be highly effective (both have to happen - defense AND OLine) then I want what you're smoking.
Good post. And I am far from an Eli apologist. And as Dep said  
Blue21 : 3/14/2019 9:25 am : link
I'll be cheering them on. I was very disapointed we didn't get some good news yesterday. I was very upset at the end of the day with the Giants FO. Let's see what today brings. I actually don't blame the Giants for trading OBJ. You could see it coming. Were they underpaid? I don't know we always overvalue our players. And with all his antics I'm glad we got what we got. Next year they'd have been less value. And doubt we would have got more if we traded him last year. Let see if Cleveland can contain the potential circus they brought to town. Maybe they win it all. Who knows. But it doesn't always work that way.
RE: OP reasoning is flawed  
5BowlsSoon : 3/14/2019 9:28 am : link
In comment 14335643 giantstock said:
Quote:
As of this moment 60% of the OLINe is subpar and nearly all the defense is subpar. And each year Eli is going to struggle more with his age.

This upcoming season if you think the entire defense can be fixed and the OLINe rebuilt enough to be highly effective (both have to happen - defense AND OLine) then I want what you're smoking.


False.
Zeiter, So.der, and Hernandez are not sub par...that is 60%

You can make an argument that Pulley and Wheeler are sub par, but that is 40%

Good post Pete  
5BowlsSoon : 3/14/2019 9:32 am : link
I’m not sure I agree with every detail you made but nevertheless the big picture you painted makes sense to me.

To be honest, I’m okay with rebuilding in 2019 even though I know DG believes we can still win while rebuilding. What I mean is, I won’t be upset if we go 5-11 next year knowing that we are competitive but just young and missing a few more key pieces which we hopefully will get the following year. And of course, I’m hoping the KC Plan will go into effect regarding our 2020 QB.
WHAT IF Beckham stayed a Giant...  
x meadowlander : 3/14/2019 9:46 am : link
...and repeated last season? Lost month to injury, seems to have lost a step, contract demands, etc...

2 days clear, I'm OK with the trade. Because I believe Beckham's best days are behind him. Let him be Cleveland's problem.
I have a positive outlook  
Harvest Blend : 3/14/2019 9:48 am : link
after reading this board the last couple of days I'm positive the Giants will never win another game.

I'm grateful for the info.
RE: RE: OP reasoning is flawed  
giantstock : 3/14/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14335683 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
In comment 14335643 giantstock said:


Quote:


As of this moment 60% of the OLINe is subpar and nearly all the defense is subpar. And each year Eli is going to struggle more with his age.

This upcoming season if you think the entire defense can be fixed and the OLINe rebuilt enough to be highly effective (both have to happen - defense AND OLine) then I want what you're smoking.



False.
Zeiter, So.der, and Hernandez are not sub par...that is 60%

You can make an argument that Pulley and Wheeler are sub par, but that is 40%


You're right, My bad, 40% of the OL is subpar.
Back to the Corner