Thought the OBJ rumors were just rumors after Gettleman kept saying "We didn't sign him to trade him". Though I'm fine with the OBJ trade.
Think OBJ is more talented then Shockey? I was a young Giants fan with Shockey so it is hard to put him in perspective.
And Shockey's time was before tight ends became such weapons with Gronk etc., so I felt like losing a tight end was not that big of a deal at the time.
"When you draft a guy #2 overall, you expect that some day he's going to be putting on a gold jacket." -- Dave Gettleman
Gettleman just traded a guy, who if he stays healthy, is going to be putting on a gold jacket -- after playing most of his years elsewhere. It may turn out to be the right move, but he just traded a HOFer, AND took the $16M cap hit. You don't expect that.
Shockey was a good TE for only a couple of years, and an asshole from day 1.
will continue to perform well for the Browns while we now have to hunt for his replacement hoping he is half as good. It sucks seeing my co-workers who are Cowboys and Eagles fans in complete jubilation that he is out of the NFC east.
to see shockey go, He was already on the decline at that point and was never healthy. Plus we all saw what Boss was capable of so we knew the his replacement was already on the roster.
Losing obj is still shocking, especially because we just extended him, and ownership just said that we wouldn't sign him to trade him. Hes a fan favorite, and hes made the team watchable the last few years. My son was distraught when I told him. Thats the first time i've ever seen him upset about a player on the giants.
after a few days of thinking on it, i'm more convinced it was the right move. We needed to rebuild, we have a lot of holes. And if we can sacrifice one player to fill multiple other players and free cap space, you have to do that. Think of it as a modern Herschel Walker trade.
Shockey was literally fighting teammates at lunch in his first camp Â
While his downfall was still surprising it is tempered by remembering how the ridiculous offensive scheme of the time thought making him a decoy was the best strategy. Ridiculous!
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
RE: Honestly, I thought OBJ would be here forever Â
I imagined an LT-like scenario where the coaches/ownership made a special set of rules for him and embraced him despite off the field antics.
Shockey never struck me as loved within the Giants, especially after publicly and directly going after the coaching staff after losses. It was easier to see that exit.
Huh? Shockey was one of only 3 players asked to come and say godbye to the then dying Wellington Mara
to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
Because he was much better than Shockey was, particularly by 2007. Shockey never really seemed to fit into Coughlin's offense the way he did in Fassel's.
This. Shockey had the spectacular rookie year but the OL was so terrible in '03 that he had to stay in and block and then Tom came along with an offense that didn't seem to have a big role for TE's. Shockey was just never the same play maker after '02.
RE: Honestly, I thought OBJ would be here forever Â
I imagined an LT-like scenario where the coaches/ownership made a special set of rules for him and embraced him despite off the field antics.
I guess the difference is that LT was literally always on the field, a football savant when it came his ability to see or be told something once and master it, and is without question one of the best players (at any position) in NFL history.
For all Beckham's physical gifts, he's not in LT's class.
and maybe as well to Plaxico. All very talented and made great plays for us over the years. But NYC is not fpr everyone especially those who like the wild side .
While his downfall was still surprising it is tempered by remembering how the ridiculous offensive scheme of the time thought making him a decoy was the best strategy. Ridiculous!
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
Yeah and that lunch fight set him up as a tough guy on the team. Revisionist history right there.
Although supremely talented I never felt either of them would end their careers with the Giants. Personally I grew tired of watching Shockey limp off the field each game and of OBJ's antics.
jvm52106 : 11:01 am : link : reply
In comment 14336030 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
While his downfall was still surprising it is tempered by remembering how the ridiculous offensive scheme of the time thought making him a decoy was the best strategy. Ridiculous!
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
Yeah and that lunch fight set him up as a tough guy on the team. Revisionist history right there.
What history exactly did this revise? Please.
While it may indeed have "set him up as a tough guy" it certainly forebode what was to come.
His being a hothead directly led to his flaming out with us.
If you think it didn't you are the one engaging in revisionist history. But I don't think you're doing that. I think you're either not understanding the comment or just not remembering the reasons why he flamed out.
Hilarious to see Brees chew out bonehead Shockey Â
Shockey was such a ballsy player. After years of being medicore, he stepped on the field and just owned it. At least for a little while. Anyone remember this play? Shockey beats Dawkins - ( New Window )
Like Beckham, Shockey was a generational talent and undoubtedly the best the Giants have ever had at the position. But also like Beckham, his biggest gaffe occurred at the most critical moment of his Giants career. Just as Beckham's days as a Giant will increasingly be remembered primarily for his poor showing in his one and only playoff game in Green Bay, Shockey's Giants tenure is forever marred by his dropping that critical touchdown pass in the Niner's playoff game that would have won the game.
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
The list of good to star receivers that met an early demise here Â
Plax, Steve Smith, Ike Hilliard, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Jeremy Shockey, Odell Beckham. Heck lets throw in the trading away of McAffery for good measure! (Though hes borderline recent history lol)
Look at that list thats just last 20 years (save mccaffery)....wow
Unless Im missing somebody, the only one to make it here with a long career in recent history was Amani Toomer.
Because he is more of a generational talent. Shockey did upset me, but for me a child of the 50s I’ve never gotten over San Huff traded to Redskins. I remember it like it was yesterday seared into my memory. Same thing will happen to kids who were so excited to get their first OBJ Giants jersey. Seems the Giants have issues with players that have personalities, maybe that’s why Mara loves Eli, he has none.
RE: Let's hope a championship comes as quickly as it did when Shockey left Â
Like Beckham, Shockey was a generational talent and undoubtedly the best the Giants have ever had at the position. But also like Beckham, his biggest gaffe occurred at the most critical moment of his Giants career. Just as Beckham's days as a Giant will increasingly be remembered primarily for his poor showing in his one and only playoff game in Green Bay, Shockey's Giants tenure is forever marred by his dropping that critical touchdown pass in the Niner's playoff game that would have won the game.
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
Shockey was on the team for XLII, the next Super Bowl didn't come for another 4 years. Given the current state sure 4 years would be welcome for a SB win, but based on your post it seems like maybe you thought it was sooner.
RE: RE: Let's hope a championship comes as quickly as it did when Shockey left Â
Like Beckham, Shockey was a generational talent and undoubtedly the best the Giants have ever had at the position. But also like Beckham, his biggest gaffe occurred at the most critical moment of his Giants career. Just as Beckham's days as a Giant will increasingly be remembered primarily for his poor showing in his one and only playoff game in Green Bay, Shockey's Giants tenure is forever marred by his dropping that critical touchdown pass in the Niner's playoff game that would have won the game.
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
Shockey was on the team for XLII, the next Super Bowl didn't come for another 4 years. Given the current state sure 4 years would be welcome for a SB win, but based on your post it seems like maybe you thought it was sooner.
You are right - I had forgotten that he was an injured bystander contributing nothing to the playoff run before leaving after that game... four years later it was actually a journeyman tight end named Jake Ballard not Kevin Boss who helped lead the giants to that championship... in either case, we never needed a diva in the first place to prevail...
RE: RE: RE: I wouldn't even really compre Beckham Â
to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
sorry, I just don't think LT required a lot of 'energy' to manage, he showed up and he performed, no fuss no muss. His personal problems never got in the way, he never took stupid penalties, never had anything close to a joshnorman meltdown, never pretended to pee in the endzone, never milked an injury, and most importantly, he won...
to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
sorry, I just don't think LT required a lot of 'energy' to manage, he showed up and he performed, no fuss no muss. His personal problems never got in the way, he never took stupid penalties, never had anything close to a joshnorman meltdown, never pretended to pee in the endzone, never milked an injury, and most importantly, he won...
He was suspended for four games for drug use in 1988. Likely cost us a playoff spot. And after that he was always one failed test away from a bigger suspension. I'd wager Parcells and Young sweated a helluva lot over him.
If Beckham played in the 80's/90's he'd still be a star and probably still a Giant (especially if Parcells was his coach) IMO.
So, my comparison is not among Shockey and Beckham which really isn't a contest.
I think a better comparison would be between the energy it takes today to "deal with" Beckham as the team has stated as a primary reason for the trade with the energy it would take to "deal with" LT today.
If anyone here is naive enough to think LT survives in today's NFL (off-field scrutiny) you're pretty naive.
And if you don't think it was a lot of energy dealing with LT, you really don't listen much to Belichick.
They just had a very different approach back then.
And it leads me to wonder, what player can survive.
Barkley? If he the new prototype of role model player?
as a fan what's frustrating is I don't give a shit about the peeing in the end zone or anything the players say really (until it costs the team a penalty or gets the player suspended) - outside of that I don't give a shit what the players do or say.
got this from a very reliable source who was sitting at a poker table at a friends's house. That friend is also friends with one of our well known ex-offensive linemen who was at that table.
After some drinks the OL was asked what the difference was in Eli's ability to start playing better. This conversation happened over a decade ago.
The answer came with one word "Shockey". The fact that he was no longer on the team. He spoke about the things Shockey would do to Eli in the huddle. Calling him an asshole for throwing a bad pass (just one example). He said once Shockey left, it was like a weight was lifted from Eli.
LT's loyalty, or commitment, to the team was never questioned Â
got this from a very reliable source who was sitting at a poker table at a friends's house. That friend is also friends with one of our well known ex-offensive linemen who was at that table.
After some drinks the OL was asked what the difference was in Eli's ability to start playing better. This conversation happened over a decade ago.
The answer came with one word "Shockey". The fact that he was no longer on the team. He spoke about the things Shockey would do to Eli in the huddle. Calling him an asshole for throwing a bad pass (just one example). He said once Shockey left, it was like a weight was lifted from Eli.
Thanks for sharing this story. And you can add Tiki Barber to that mix as well... you just have to love the courage of Eli to stand up to verbal abuse from his very own teammates, win two championships, never get hurt despite taking a pounding in the pocket, be among the top ten quarterbacks in every major career stat category and be assaulted with the most offensive vitriol daily from the NYC media and Giants fan base who want to blame him personally for every problem the Giants have... And yet never once, in all of his tenure, has he ever responded to anything except in the most positive and professional manner. There is no doubt that OBJ's departure will have a similarly positive effect on Eli as Shockey's departure...
Great post!
RE: LT's loyalty, or commitment, to the team was never questioned Â
he might not have survived in this day and age, we'll never know, but it wouldn't have been for the reasons that torpedoed ob, imo
Splitting hairs IMO, off field distractions are off field distractions and probably all require "energy". Maybe LT didn't have the microphone in his face as much, but in watching all the LT specials, he definitely wasn't as much a "team player" as some fans make him out to be, yes, on the field he was the most dominant player ever, but he'd say flat out he wasn't going to do what the coaches said.
In the end, Belichick (and probably Parcells) recognized the massive talent that LT was and his great mind for the game, and they adjusted their schemes to allow him more "free lance" ability. They didn't try and push him into a role and then let things get out of hand with him not going according to script.
Not saying the Giants did that with Beckham (I have no idea - I'm sure stories will slowly leak out about how bad Beckham was now that he's gone), but they definitely seem more rigid than the coaching staff was with LT.
All of the (the LT stuff) has been stated in some of the many LT specials and football life-type shows over the years.
I am a huge LT fan, he's the reason I'm a Giants fan (LT and my father), and I think he's the best football player to ever play the game, but sometimes perception and time allow people to accentuate the good making it even better and ignoring the bad.
OBJ did as I didn't think they would sign him to that big contract and then trade him after the season. Had they not, I would have expected him to be out the door by seasons end.
There is no doubt that OBJ's departure will have a similarly positive effect on Eli as Shockey's departure...
Great post!
To be clear, I am not suggesting there is a correlation between what Shockey did and OBJ. Not at all. My story was about Shockey only.
We have no idea whether Odell's departure will be a positive thing for Eli. On the surface, I am not sure how it would be when you have a weapon like that on the field. Meanwhile, we are improving the OL and that can have a significant impact on Eli's comfort level in the pocket. That could improve his play ... so we may not really know what the real impact is.
more impactful player, a much bigger personality (not to say Shockey wasn't), and a much bigger star. Trading a player of that caliber when they're just entering their prime is almost unheard of in the NFL. For those reasons trading OBJ was significantly more shocking to me.
As a 62 year old who has seen everything and doesn't get crazy about player movement anymore,including when Shockey left, I have to admit that this trade of OBJ is still haunting me. It would be like trading LT. I wonder if Gettleman woke up yesterday and said "wow, I just had a nightmare that I traded OBJ" until he realized that he actually did.
And even though we don't know how OBJ's career will eventually turn out, the way Shockey just basically went straight downhill to the end was startling. That pic of him passed out in Vegas was hilarious. He's just disappeared off the face of the Earth after that one season in Carolina
Think OBJ is more talented then Shockey? I was a young Giants fan with Shockey so it is hard to put him in perspective.
And Shockey's time was before tight ends became such weapons with Gronk etc., so I felt like losing a tight end was not that big of a deal at the time.
They won a Super Bowl with Shockey on the roster. He helped them get the wins to get into the playoffs.
"When you draft a guy #2 overall, you expect that some day he's going to be putting on a gold jacket." -- Dave Gettleman
Gettleman just traded a guy, who if he stays healthy, is going to be putting on a gold jacket -- after playing most of his years elsewhere. It may turn out to be the right move, but he just traded a HOFer, AND took the $16M cap hit. You don't expect that.
Shockey was a good TE for only a couple of years, and an asshole from day 1.
Quote:
I think I was surprised he hung around so long. In the end, they got over the hump without him.
They won a Super Bowl with Shockey on the roster. He helped them get the wins to get into the playoffs.
Yeah, he was such a good teammate the Giants didn't even allow him on the sidelines during the Super Bowl.
This offseason..
Losing obj is still shocking, especially because we just extended him, and ownership just said that we wouldn't sign him to trade him. Hes a fan favorite, and hes made the team watchable the last few years. My son was distraught when I told him. Thats the first time i've ever seen him upset about a player on the giants.
after a few days of thinking on it, i'm more convinced it was the right move. We needed to rebuild, we have a lot of holes. And if we can sacrifice one player to fill multiple other players and free cap space, you have to do that. Think of it as a modern Herschel Walker trade.
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
Shockey never struck me as loved within the Giants, especially after publicly and directly going after the coaching staff after losses. It was easier to see that exit.
Huh? Shockey was one of only 3 players asked to come and say godbye to the then dying Wellington Mara
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
have we really replaced him when he was effective?
Quote:
to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
when did we replace him?
This. Shockey had the spectacular rookie year but the OL was so terrible in '03 that he had to stay in and block and then Tom came along with an offense that didn't seem to have a big role for TE's. Shockey was just never the same play maker after '02.
I guess the difference is that LT was literally always on the field, a football savant when it came his ability to see or be told something once and master it, and is without question one of the best players (at any position) in NFL history.
For all Beckham's physical gifts, he's not in LT's class.
Agree with this.
One acted like middle school boy and the other acted like a middle school girl.
Quote:
In comment 14335793 NoPeanutz said:
Quote:
I think I was surprised he hung around so long. In the end, they got over the hump without him.
They won a Super Bowl with Shockey on the roster. He helped them get the wins to get into the playoffs.
Yeah, he was such a good teammate the Giants didn't even allow him on the sidelines during the Super Bowl.
He had a broken leg... WTF dude.
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
Yeah and that lunch fight set him up as a tough guy on the team. Revisionist history right there.
Quote:
hope it does not take as long to replace Odell the as it did Shockey. Took 10 years to replace Shockey.
when did we replace him?
Engram is ready to become a difference maker on this team ...let's just hope they resign him when the time comes
jvm52106 : 11:01 am : link : reply
In comment 14336030 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
While his downfall was still surprising it is tempered by remembering how the ridiculous offensive scheme of the time thought making him a decoy was the best strategy. Ridiculous!
OBJ's end shocks me much more. It was much more sudden and we just locked him up last year to a long term deal.
Yeah and that lunch fight set him up as a tough guy on the team. Revisionist history right there.
What history exactly did this revise? Please.
While it may indeed have "set him up as a tough guy" it certainly forebode what was to come.
His being a hothead directly led to his flaming out with us.
If you think it didn't you are the one engaging in revisionist history. But I don't think you're doing that. I think you're either not understanding the comment or just not remembering the reasons why he flamed out.
Shockey beats Dawkins - ( New Window )
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
Plax, Steve Smith, Ike Hilliard, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Jeremy Shockey, Odell Beckham. Heck lets throw in the trading away of McAffery for good measure! (Though hes borderline recent history lol)
Look at that list thats just last 20 years (save mccaffery)....wow
Unless Im missing somebody, the only one to make it here with a long career in recent history was Amani Toomer.
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
Shockey was on the team for XLII, the next Super Bowl didn't come for another 4 years. Given the current state sure 4 years would be welcome for a SB win, but based on your post it seems like maybe you thought it was sooner.
Quote:
Like Beckham, Shockey was a generational talent and undoubtedly the best the Giants have ever had at the position. But also like Beckham, his biggest gaffe occurred at the most critical moment of his Giants career. Just as Beckham's days as a Giant will increasingly be remembered primarily for his poor showing in his one and only playoff game in Green Bay, Shockey's Giants tenure is forever marred by his dropping that critical touchdown pass in the Niner's playoff game that would have won the game.
Yes, these were two great Giant players... but remember, some of the biggest catches in the 2007 playoff run, which occurred immediately upon Shockey's departure, were made by rookie tight end Kevin Boss... the fourth quarter big play that set up the Giants' first touchdown in super bowl LXII was as important a play as there was in that game... We don't need diva superstars to win championships. Perhaps a great rookie will fill OBJ's shoes much sooner than we think... perhaps someone from Eli's alma mater :)
And can we please stop the OBJ comparisons to LT... Yes, it can be argued that both have character flaws and that perhaps LT suffers from personal demons that are much worse than those of Beckham. But LT was nevertheless a champion and leader of men. On the field, there was never the slightest question that his outstanding individual achievements were part and parcel contributions to the team goal of winning. He was never a "look at me diva" who cared about his personal brand and media image above the goal of winning championships... You need only imagine LT lining up for that onsides kick against Chicago last fall and coming up with the ball the way he did against the Niners in the 1991 NFC championship game to understand the difference between these two individuals...
Shockey was on the team for XLII, the next Super Bowl didn't come for another 4 years. Given the current state sure 4 years would be welcome for a SB win, but based on your post it seems like maybe you thought it was sooner.
You are right - I had forgotten that he was an injured bystander contributing nothing to the playoff run before leaving after that game... four years later it was actually a journeyman tight end named Jake Ballard not Kevin Boss who helped lead the giants to that championship... in either case, we never needed a diva in the first place to prevail...
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In comment 14335864 pjcas18 said:
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to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
sorry, I just don't think LT required a lot of 'energy' to manage, he showed up and he performed, no fuss no muss. His personal problems never got in the way, he never took stupid penalties, never had anything close to a joshnorman meltdown, never pretended to pee in the endzone, never milked an injury, and most importantly, he won...
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In comment 14336065 Dave said:
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In comment 14335864 pjcas18 said:
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to Shockey, for me, it's more like Beckham to LT. Mainly because a) Shockey wasn't as good as Beckham (relatively speaking) and b) Shockey's end was predictable, he seemed bitter after the SB.
If LT were on the Giants in the Beckham era, would he have even survived?
Would he have made it past the drug issues without suspension or would he be like the Cowboys defenders?
Would he have fallen outside media scrutiny and stayed away from team discipline?
Social media?
LT was of course better than Beckham, and nothing Beckham has done gets close to what we've learned about LT, but I bet the "energy" expended to keep LT around is probably similar to the bullshit excuse about the "energy" to keep Beckham.
another Huh? LT never dissed his qb or NYC
Huh? Where did I say he did? I was comparing the end of Beckham's career with the non-end of LT and feeling like LT and Beckham are better comparisons than Beckham and Shockey. and I wondered how LT would fare today in this era.
For the reasons I gave - which were based on the public reasons the Giants gave for the Beckham trade.
sorry, I just don't think LT required a lot of 'energy' to manage, he showed up and he performed, no fuss no muss. His personal problems never got in the way, he never took stupid penalties, never had anything close to a joshnorman meltdown, never pretended to pee in the endzone, never milked an injury, and most importantly, he won...
He was suspended for four games for drug use in 1988. Likely cost us a playoff spot. And after that he was always one failed test away from a bigger suspension. I'd wager Parcells and Young sweated a helluva lot over him.
If Beckham played in the 80's/90's he'd still be a star and probably still a Giant (especially if Parcells was his coach) IMO.
So, my comparison is not among Shockey and Beckham which really isn't a contest.
I think a better comparison would be between the energy it takes today to "deal with" Beckham as the team has stated as a primary reason for the trade with the energy it would take to "deal with" LT today.
If anyone here is naive enough to think LT survives in today's NFL (off-field scrutiny) you're pretty naive.
And if you don't think it was a lot of energy dealing with LT, you really don't listen much to Belichick.
They just had a very different approach back then.
And it leads me to wonder, what player can survive.
Barkley? If he the new prototype of role model player?
as a fan what's frustrating is I don't give a shit about the peeing in the end zone or anything the players say really (until it costs the team a penalty or gets the player suspended) - outside of that I don't give a shit what the players do or say.
After some drinks the OL was asked what the difference was in Eli's ability to start playing better. This conversation happened over a decade ago.
The answer came with one word "Shockey". The fact that he was no longer on the team. He spoke about the things Shockey would do to Eli in the huddle. Calling him an asshole for throwing a bad pass (just one example). He said once Shockey left, it was like a weight was lifted from Eli.
he might not have survived in this day and age, we'll never know, but it wouldn't have been for the reasons that torpedoed ob, imo
After some drinks the OL was asked what the difference was in Eli's ability to start playing better. This conversation happened over a decade ago.
The answer came with one word "Shockey". The fact that he was no longer on the team. He spoke about the things Shockey would do to Eli in the huddle. Calling him an asshole for throwing a bad pass (just one example). He said once Shockey left, it was like a weight was lifted from Eli.
Thanks for sharing this story. And you can add Tiki Barber to that mix as well... you just have to love the courage of Eli to stand up to verbal abuse from his very own teammates, win two championships, never get hurt despite taking a pounding in the pocket, be among the top ten quarterbacks in every major career stat category and be assaulted with the most offensive vitriol daily from the NYC media and Giants fan base who want to blame him personally for every problem the Giants have... And yet never once, in all of his tenure, has he ever responded to anything except in the most positive and professional manner. There is no doubt that OBJ's departure will have a similarly positive effect on Eli as Shockey's departure...
Great post!
he might not have survived in this day and age, we'll never know, but it wouldn't have been for the reasons that torpedoed ob, imo
Splitting hairs IMO, off field distractions are off field distractions and probably all require "energy". Maybe LT didn't have the microphone in his face as much, but in watching all the LT specials, he definitely wasn't as much a "team player" as some fans make him out to be, yes, on the field he was the most dominant player ever, but he'd say flat out he wasn't going to do what the coaches said.
In the end, Belichick (and probably Parcells) recognized the massive talent that LT was and his great mind for the game, and they adjusted their schemes to allow him more "free lance" ability. They didn't try and push him into a role and then let things get out of hand with him not going according to script.
Not saying the Giants did that with Beckham (I have no idea - I'm sure stories will slowly leak out about how bad Beckham was now that he's gone), but they definitely seem more rigid than the coaching staff was with LT.
All of the (the LT stuff) has been stated in some of the many LT specials and football life-type shows over the years.
I am a huge LT fan, he's the reason I'm a Giants fan (LT and my father), and I think he's the best football player to ever play the game, but sometimes perception and time allow people to accentuate the good making it even better and ignoring the bad.
Great post!
To be clear, I am not suggesting there is a correlation between what Shockey did and OBJ. Not at all. My story was about Shockey only.
We have no idea whether Odell's departure will be a positive thing for Eli. On the surface, I am not sure how it would be when you have a weapon like that on the field. Meanwhile, we are improving the OL and that can have a significant impact on Eli's comfort level in the pocket. That could improve his play ... so we may not really know what the real impact is.