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The cost to trade up for Kyler Murray

Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 10:14 am
Taking a step back from the Odell trade and what the Giants got back in the deal (plus all the other deals they made). And factoring in a few Gettleman choice quotes of "no guts, no glory" and referencing the "Kansas City Model", I think I'm at a place where I believe the Giants will get a QB in this draft.

A team won't send their head coach, offensive coordinator and top scout to see player's pro day, and spend time with him unless there is real interest.

So, if you are of the belief that the Giants are going to go into this season with the heir to Eli, what is out there? A trade for Josh Rosen, which will cost a 2nd or 3rd rounder and is probably the safest route because the Giants will still be able to use their first rounders to fill holes. But there are enough indications the Giants are not considering him due to any of a variety of reasons.

Haskins, Lock, Jones are all decent prospects. And all are generally considered to be at best maybe even but likely below the class of prospects we saw last year, a class that Gettleman didn't want to get involved with and opted for Saquon instead as the safest pick because he didn't want to miss at #2.

And then comes Murray. There were questions about how serious he was about playing football and if he'd go to the A's. Questions about his height and weight and if he was too small. Well, the height and weight show that while undersized, he can still be an NFL QB. He's the best of the QBs in this draft by any and all accounts. Gettleman said you can't find your franchise QB in the middle rounds, you need to draft them high.

Now is where we have to wonder the real trigger in the Odell trade, to build up enough assets to trade up to get Murray. There are only two other teams with multiple first rounders, the Raiders and Packers. The Raiders are sitting at 4, 24, and 27. I see no real way that Mayock will trade 3 first rounders to move up to #1 to get Murray while he still has Carr on the team. They will want to fill out that roster with players. We know the Packers are not trading up to get Murray with Rodgers there. Sitting at 6 and 17, to bring in first rounders this year, the Giants have the best potential immediate package (unless the Raiders trade up)

So, the next question. What would it cost? Let's look at the most recent QB trade ups, Jared Goff and Carson Wentz.

In 2016, the Titans picked #1 and the Rams picked at 15 (a big jump) and the cost was reflective

The Titans got the Rams first round pick, 2 2nd round picks, and a third round pick. The following year it cost their #1 and #3. They got back the first overall (Goff) and the Titans 4th and 6th rounders.


Now the Eagles trade for Wentz with Cleveland.

The Eagles got the Browns #1 (2nd overall) and a 4th rounder the next year.

The Browns got the Eagles 1st, 3rd, 4th round pick, a 1st in 2017, and a 2nd in 2018.

Bottom line, the costs appear to be roughly what you'd expect:

- Need 2 first rounders (check thanks to the Odell trade)
- Need a 3rd rounder (check, thanks to Odell trade)
- looking at a high pick in 2020. Since the Giants have given up 2 firsts already, the price could well be a 2nd next year.

And the Giants have additional picks in the 5th round this year if need be.

Bottom line, the Giants now absolutely have the ammunition to move up to #1 this year because of the Odell trade. And they can offset the go forward cost and hold on to their first rounder next year.

So, would you do the following?

Trade up for #1 and draft Murray

Give up:

Both 2019 First round picks (6 and 17)
- 2019 3rd rounder
- 2019 5th rounder (pick one)
- 2020 2nd rounder

Maybe there are a few 4/5/6s shifting around either way, but those are the bones of the deal.

Would you pull that trigger to get Murray? I think that's the cost. The Giants have the draft capital to do it. They keep Eli to mentor for 2019 and hand the keys to Murray either later in the year or in 2020.


Why are people talking about this?  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 10:16 am : link
All available evidence points towards Arizona drafting Murray and having absolutely no interest in trading the pick.
Way too much for a guy who could run back to the Aís  
The_Boss : 3/14/2019 10:16 am : link
After his first concussion.
Could Jackrabbit be a possible trade chip  
Mr. Bungle : 3/14/2019 10:16 am : link
in a potential package?
RE: Why are people talking about this?  
Jay on the Island : 3/14/2019 10:18 am : link
In comment 14335927 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
All available evidence points towards Arizona drafting Murray and having absolutely no interest in trading the pick.

It was very strange that the Cardinals GM and Kingsbury did NOT go to Murray's pro day.
Murray  
HomerJones45 : 3/14/2019 10:18 am : link
The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:
I wanted to keep Beckham for another year  
Jay on the Island : 3/14/2019 10:20 am : link
to use him as a potential trade chip to move up for Fromm or Tua if needed. Now if they traded Beckham with the intention of using the assets acquired to move up for Murray then that would change my outlook on the trade.
I don't see them trading up  
larryflower37 : 3/14/2019 10:20 am : link
This team has too many holes right now.
I believe there is an opportunity for Murray and/or Haskins to be available at 6 and the Giants are doing strong due-diligence.
Or we could have been checking out Cody Ford big-time,  
CT Charlie : 3/14/2019 10:21 am : link
and spent due diligence on Murray in case the Cardinals stand pat with Rosen, and Murray somehow drops.
No, no, no...trade up in 1st  
George from PA : 3/14/2019 10:21 am : link
I think edge rusher at 6 and stud LB at 17.


But if QB...ok. but no trade up.

If they want to move around in the 4th or 5th rd.....fine.

If anything move back and get 2020 picks
I am not sure they need to go to 1 to do it.  
Jarvis : 3/14/2019 10:22 am : link
If the Cardinals want Murray....they are taking him no matter what we offer. If not, is there another team that would be willing to go all the way to 1? Who has that kind of draft capital that is close? The Dolphins and Redskins are candidates to do it, but that is a big jump and would the Cardinals want to marvel back that far. The 49ers become a logical spot. They donít need a QB, and they just spent a 2nd rounder (2020) on a pass rusher that they then signed for big money (Dee Ford). They may want to move back. To be honest, i donít see anyone in the top 5 going QB (after perhaps the Cardinals). I do think the Giants can be smart about how far to trade up. I donít think they have to ďjumpĒ anyone, but they may have to comepete with a team further back...however as mentioned, I think the 1sst team is the Dolphins at 13...and clearly the Giants can easily beat any offer coming from the 6 pick.
How exciting  
lecky : 3/14/2019 10:23 am : link
to have basically 3 first round picks to start to get back to being great again. If you can never stop a team on 3rd and 18 in the fourth quarter and you have Brady and Moss you wont ever be good. You need to have a great defense before you need to improve on a good offense. We have upgraded the O Line and Barkley will score his points, but we really need to stop people. When was the last time we had 2 safeties?
I would not make that trade Matt  
Chris684 : 3/14/2019 10:23 am : link
Not when I can stay at 6 and take Haskins, a really nice prospect in his own right.

Not with the questions about Murray's height.

And not when I know I also need to come away with at a minimum ER, OL and WR in this draft aside from whatever I'm doing at QB.

I would not trade up for Murray, nor do I have much interest in Rosen.

My two preferred options:

Haskins at #6 and then use picks to round out the other needs as stated above; edge, OL, WR, S, etc.

OR

Pass on QBs in this draft and put all picks into building the roster up, including the option of trading down for a 2020 1st.
RE: RE: Why are people talking about this?  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14335948 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
It was very strange that the Cardinals GM and Kingsbury did NOT go to Murray's pro day.


Maybe it's unusual, but the actual value of pro days is pretty questionable. Could be as simple as the Cardinals knowing that they're picking him already and not seeing the point of going to see him performing under very artificial, controlled conditions.
Hell no.  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/14/2019 10:24 am : link
Talk about trading up? For Went, sure. For Good, don't scoff.

For a freak athlete who's a midget by NFL standards, hell no.
RE: Murray  
Rjanyg : 3/14/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14335950 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:


Wow Murray looks little. I think Haskins, Lock or trade for Rosen.
WENTZ AND GOFF  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/14/2019 10:25 am : link
Auto spell sucks.
Additionally, if we were to trade up  
Chris684 : 3/14/2019 10:26 am : link
why are giving up both 1's PLUS everything else in that package? That seems like way too much.

.  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:29 am : link
Maybe if Homer posts the same picture enough times, he'll look at it long enough to figure out that Haskins and Tua are standing closer to the camera than Murray is.
RE: Murray  
DanMetroMan : 3/14/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14335950 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:


What a silly picture to cite. Based on this picture it would imply Murray is roughly a foot shorter than Haskins and 5-6 inches shorter than Tua and we know this is not true. Further... guess what... the teams, scouts and coaches get to actually stand next to him, talk to him etc. If the Giants (or any team) takes him. They know his true height.
RE: Or we could have been checking out Cody Ford big-time,  
Eman11 : 3/14/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14335970 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
and spent due diligence on Murray in case the Cardinals stand pat with Rosen, and Murray somehow drops.


It think this is most likely exactly what went on there yesterday.
IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/14/2019 10:30 am : link
and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year
I would rather use picks  
Chris684 : 3/14/2019 10:31 am : link
6- Haskins
17- Hockenson/Hollywood Brown
37- Polite
95- Cajuste
.  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:31 am : link
I mean, I've watched every single game Tua Tagovailoa has played - I can tell you with 1000% certainty that he is absolutely not as much taller than Murray as he appears in that photo.

Again - use the podium and trophy for perspective. Murray is set back further than the other two guys. He's shorter than they are- but the angle and positioning pretty clearly exaggerates it.
I think  
Pascal4554 : 3/14/2019 10:31 am : link
the Giants are doing their due diligence in case Murray is available later than expected. Otherwise, I don't think the interest is real. Giants doing their homework, like they did for all the top QBs last year.
RE: .  
DanMetroMan : 3/14/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14336009 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Maybe if Homer posts the same picture enough times, he'll look at it long enough to figure out that Haskins and Tua are standing closer to the camera than Murray is.


Sorry Arc. This picture is accurate. Clearly this is the size differential. It's been established.. Haskins is 6'3, Murray 4'2

I am starting to believe more and more  
Mike from Ohio : 3/14/2019 10:32 am : link
that the Giants will go defense with the first pick (assuming Haskins is gone) and then select either Lock or Daniels at #17. If those guys are not there, I expect them to select someone like Grier at the top of the second.

I like Murray's game and would love to see how Shurmur would use him, but my biggest concern giving up significant draft picks for him is that he does have an out to go make millions playing baseball if this team sucks and/or he gets hurt in a couple of years.

I am not advocating for the plan above, it is just what I think is most likely for them to do.
RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14336018 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year


If this is what they're doing, it's an awful plan.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14336031 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14336009 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Maybe if Homer posts the same picture enough times, he'll look at it long enough to figure out that Haskins and Tua are standing closer to the camera than Murray is.



Sorry Arc. This picture is accurate. Clearly this is the size differential. It's been established.. Haskins is 6'3, Murray 4'2



LOL
I'm intrigued by Murray  
Kyle in NY : 3/14/2019 10:33 am : link
However given the sheer number of holes on this roster, I don't think we should be trading up, at least not this year. Use all of these picks in a deep draft and set a solid foundation moving forward.
RE: RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
The_Boss : 3/14/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14336034 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14336018 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year



If this is what they're doing, it's an awful plan.


Jtgiants posted a couple of weeks ago that is the plan. They like Fromm, apparently.
If DG, Shurmur, Shula and management agree he is the guy  
TMS : 3/14/2019 10:40 am : link
I would do it this year and get on with business. He could work with ELI this year and be ready when he is ready. Think he could be very special in our offense with Barkley and company with his skill set. fast
.  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:41 am : link
Playing a long-game on Fromm is dangerous business - that can very, very easily backfire. I'd expect it to somehow.
Worst  
DanMetroMan : 3/14/2019 10:41 am : link
possible move is using that #17 pick on a QB because you didn't love the options at 6 but "need" a QB. #6, #17 and #37 are absolutely massive pieces toward rebuilding this team. You need value there not fill holes. This is a bad team that lacks talent. These are picks you use to add said talent. I'd go as far as to say either you absolutely love Murray (and trade up) or love Haskins and use #6 on one of them or you don't take a QB at all. I said this yesterday, it's not the end all be all but if Lock or Jones are the pick at 17 it means the following teams passed on them

Cardinals, Giants (at 6), Redskins, Dolphins, Broncos, Bengals.. now yes, every team has their own evaluation system but to me that says... "not a franchise qb".
I still prefer Tua to Fromm  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 10:43 am : link
But I know that's not the trendy thing anymore. It's laughable how much one game has colored a lot of people's opinions of Tua.
RE: I still prefer Tua to Fromm  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14336109 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I know that's not the trendy thing anymore. It's laughable how much one game has colored a lot of people's opinions of Tua.


Tell me about it. Guy was the hottest QB commodity on the planet one day, then he has a tough go of it in the championship game and all of a sudden he's this major question mark surrounded by elite talent who were making him look good.

Tua blows every other Alabama QB I've watched out of the fucking water. It's not even close. JPW, Blake Sims, McCarron, Coker, Hurts... you name him - Tua is 10x better and more capable than any of them.
RE: RE: RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/14/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14336074 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14336034 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14336018 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year



If this is what they're doing, it's an awful plan.



Jtgiants posted a couple of weeks ago that is the plan. They like Fromm, apparently.


idk enough to know who the best qb is going to be... but my only hope is they HAVE a plan and they STICK to it
RE: RE: RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
twostepgiants : 3/14/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14336074 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14336034 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14336018 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year



If this is what they're doing, it's an awful plan.



Jtgiants posted a couple of weeks ago that is the plan. They like Fromm, apparently.


yesterday was not fun.
RE: I would rather use picks  
GeorgeAdams33 : 3/14/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14336020 Chris684 said:
Quote:
6- Haskins
17- Hockenson/Hollywood Brown
37- Polite
95- Cajuste


THAT would be a perfect draft IF they love Haskins enough. I think other than RT, a great two way TE would make our running game & play action work so much better. Hockenson is one of my personal favorites. There are so many pass rushers and O-linemen that quality prospects like Polite & Cajuste could be available where they are projected here although it would not surprise me if they both went higher based on their grades.
RE: RE: Why are people talking about this?  
Blue21 : 3/14/2019 10:50 am : link
In comment 14335948 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14335927 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


All available evidence points towards Arizona drafting Murray and having absolutely no interest in trading the pick.


It was very strange that the Cardinals GM and Kingsbury did NOT go to Murray's pro day.


This and it appears the Giants spent alot of time with Murray and Shurmur and Shula were sent there. They just may need to trade with someone picking before the Raiders. 49ers or the Jets and would cost less than the Cardinals trade.
Trade  
BleedBlue : 3/14/2019 10:54 am : link
For Rosen

#6-dev white
#17- Brian burns
#37-risner

Use 100 mill next off-season to bring in a #1 WR
RE: .  
HomerJones45 : 3/14/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14336009 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Maybe if Homer posts the same picture enough times, he'll look at it long enough to figure out that Haskins and Tua are standing closer to the camera than Murray is.
Yeah, that's it; they are standing closer, sure. Stephen A Smith must have standing far away too when he said calling Murray 5'9" was "generous."
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/14/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14336180 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14336009 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Maybe if Homer posts the same picture enough times, he'll look at it long enough to figure out that Haskins and Tua are standing closer to the camera than Murray is.

Yeah, that's it; they are standing closer, sure. Stephen A Smith must have standing far away too when he said calling Murray 5'9" was "generous."


Well, that settles it - let's go by what Screamin' A Smith said rather than the actual measurement they got on him at the combine.

Was he wearing lifts? Was the measuring stick broken? You're basically telling me his combine measurement is off by like 3" - so, you're just going to believe what you want to at this point.
Well, the points look roughly equivalent in such a trade...  
M.S. : 3/14/2019 11:00 am : link

Ö(I come up with 3000 points vs 2925), but it is really hard to think about giving up all those picks when the Giants need so much.

But what the heck... if you believe you can nab your franchise QB, then I guess you gotta do it!
arc, and it wasn't even THAT rough a game  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 11:03 am : link
He didn't play well and threw a couple of killer picks, but people talk about it as if he pulled a Tommy-Maddox-vs-the Eagles. He still ended up at 22-35, 295, 2 TDs/2 INTs, and Bama was able to move the ball fairly easily throughout but just couldn't get in the end zone.

The biggest problem was that he was playing in the same game as Lawrence, who is an even better QB prospect and was throwing darts out there.
RE: RE: RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
Jarvis : 3/14/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14336074 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14336034 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14336018 GiantsRage2007 said:




Quote:


and want Fromm

either by going 0-16 or trading up to get to #1

They aren't trading to #1 this year



If this is what they're doing, it's an awful plan.



Jtgiants posted a couple of weeks ago that is the plan. They like Fromm, apparently.


The problem with this logic is itís completely foolish to focus on a singular QB a full year before they are in the draft. For 1, Gettleman stated he plans on trying to win games this year, so if Fromm lives up to expectations, it would require a massive trade up. 2. Even if you have the ammo to trade up, you donít know what the landscape is of other teams who want a QB and where they are in the draft. 3. Fromm did not look that good this year and finished the season looking awful so itís hard to know how he even will be regarded. We have seen over the years guys considered top prospects end up going much later than originally thought.

Finally, JTGiants said the plan was to go for Fromm and trade Odell NEXT year (likely so we would have ammo to move up). It seems that JT may have been on the right track, but clearly the Giants accelerated their plan a full year...is it not possible it accelerated their QB plan as well?
Matt...very interesting...  
BillKo : 3/14/2019 11:27 am : link
.....depends on how they really feel about Murray. If they feel he's the guy, then go for it. I'd rather keep that 2020 2nd round pick though.

His size scares me. But I'm old school..I do realize the NFL is different today.

The Giants would be rolling the proverbial dice.......and they already started that by trading OBJ.

I'd really go after Rosen, though. It looks like we are going to put together a good OL. The running game threat will be there. And I think he can be had relatively "cheap".

Rosen could flourish with play action and getting guys open on routes that require time.

But man, trade up for Murray and this place will be buzzing even more!!!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: IMO, we're waiting till 2020  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14336272 Jarvis said:
Quote:
Gettleman stated he plans on trying to win games this year, so if Fromm lives up to expectations, it would require a massive trade up.


Hah, that's cute. Anyone can plan to do anything. I can plan to have a threesome with Margot Robbie and Miranda Kerr in the International Space Station. So far, there's a pretty enormous gap between what Mr. Magoo has planned and what has actually occurred.
Midget  
Little boy Lost : 3/14/2019 11:30 am : link
Football?
3 wins in a lost season & Jabrill Peppers  
ConMan22 : 3/14/2019 11:31 am : link
Thatís essentially what we traded Beckham for if this happens.
Want no part  
Little boy Lost : 3/14/2019 11:41 am : link
Of Michael Vick part two!
Why is Tua better than Murray?  
twostepgiants : 3/14/2019 11:45 am : link
Exactly why is Tua better than Kyler?

Does he have a better arm? Is he more accurate? He is faster? More agile? More mobile? Better on the run? Better pocket passer?

Why is Tua better than Murray?

Murray was a better recruit out of HS. Maybe Greatest HS player ever. 5 Star recruit.

They have each played one season of college ball. Kyler beat him for the Heismann and had better passing numbers, accuracy, more TDs, better rush stats, etc.

Nick Saban said that he had difficulty game planning against Kyler because he had no one on his team that recreate his exact skill set. He has Tua!

Is it just the height? Because Tua is listed at 6í1. Funny how that listing is never questioned.

6í1í is under the Giants prototype standard of a QB and for a very long time was considered too small to be a QB and is what landed Brees in round 2.

Tua is listed at 218 which also isnít too big and is just 10 or so pounds more than Kyler.

Tua also had an ankle injury that required surgery.

What makes Tua better than Murray?

What is it? Because people keep saying letís wait til 2020 for Tua/Fromm a much better Class. People seem to be okay with trading up next year. Why? We are likely to be further and cost more and under more competition with more teams maybe needing QB and wanting to keep them.

Why is Tua better than Murray? So much better that it requires waiting a year and a likely major trade up
The only way I wanted Murray was if we kept OBJ...  
bradshaw44 : 3/14/2019 11:48 am : link
To have him SB and OBJ on the field then this model would have worked nicely. So much speed on the field it would have been a fun watch for several years. Murray without OBJ in the mix is waaaaayyy less appealing. It would be him and SB and teams will stack the box looking for the run simply because he won't have anyone to throw down field too so they will key in on the two of them.

Also, it's tuff to trade ahead of the team with the first pick that's intending to draft the guy you want. Getting to zero is impossible.
RE: I still prefer Tua to Fromm  
bradshaw44 : 3/14/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14336109 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I know that's not the trendy thing anymore. It's laughable how much one game has colored a lot of people's opinions of Tua.


I think the souring on Tua is from the knee injuries. I've always been team Fromm. I really think that kid is the next big thing. Even over Lawrence. But that is to my untrained eye.
I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
AnnapolisMike : 3/14/2019 12:11 pm : link
The conventional wisdom would say the Giants are going to have a rough 2019 and will have a top 10 pick. But what happens if the Giants actually have a functional OL next season, can run the ball and give Eli time to get the ball out. They get a couple of breaks along the way and end up 8-8 with a pick around 17? It's not far fetched at all and you have pretty much screwed your chances of getting Fromm or Tua.

You can get a QB via free agency. Especially if you are a run first team with a strong defense. That may be the way to go.
RE: RE: I still prefer Tua to Fromm  
Mike from Ohio : 3/14/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14336394 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
In comment 14336109 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


But I know that's not the trendy thing anymore. It's laughable how much one game has colored a lot of people's opinions of Tua.



I think the souring on Tua is from the knee injuries. I've always been team Fromm. I really think that kid is the next big thing. Even over Lawrence. But that is to my untrained eye.


It was likely the first full game many had watched Tua play which makes it way more heavily in their minds.
Just pretend the uniforms are blue  
ghost718 : 3/14/2019 12:31 pm : link
RE: I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
DanMetroMan : 3/14/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14336449 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
The conventional wisdom would say the Giants are going to have a rough 2019 and will have a top 10 pick. But what happens if the Giants actually have a functional OL next season, can run the ball and give Eli time to get the ball out. They get a couple of breaks along the way and end up 8-8 with a pick around 17? It's not far fetched at all and you have pretty much screwed your chances of getting Fromm or Tua.

You can get a QB via free agency. Especially if you are a run first team with a strong defense. That may be the way to go.


I don't disagree with your overall point at all... however the WR corp is likely the worst in the NFL. Teams are going to stack the box.
What if they don't have the draft  
pjcas18 : 3/14/2019 12:35 pm : link
capital to do it, can they use real capital or maybe just regular draft picks?

and what is draft capital? People sound like complete douche bags when they say things like draft capital. Is it anything other than draft picks? so why say draft capital? because some asshole on NFL Network or ESPN decided "draft picks" wasn't a fancy enough way to say draft picks?
To touch on the wait until 2020  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 12:51 pm : link
Here is an interesting quote from Gettleman when he took over as GM last year

Quote:
Q: On your head-coach priority list, how important is the ability to develop a young quarterback?

A: Itís really important. You draft a quarterback high, and youíre wrong? It sets you back, because then what happens, there are teams that I call, theyíre in quarterback hell. They got solid defense, theyíve got a pretty good offensive line, they got some skill players. They Ö just Ö canít Ö find the trigger guy. And what happens is they go 7-9, 8-8, 9-7, and they never get high enough to get a real guy, and theyíre afraid to trade up and trade the farm to get a guy because theyíre [No.] 18, 19, 20 draft position. I call that quarterback hell.


Let's examine this quote in context with where the Giants are, where they think they will be, and the whole "KC Model" idea.

Right or wrong, from what we heard from jt and in the Odell press release. The Giants believe they will win games this year. Perhaps enough to fall into that 7.8.9 win category. So that means, in order to go and get one of those top QBs, they will have to "trade the farm".

Well, this year the Giants are flush with picks. They traded Odell to get premium picks that scream trade up. For the first time, out of the Giants organization, we've heard a few of the people on the inside (Carl Banks) saying that they think the Giants will bring in their QB of the future this year. That wording is important. They aren't saying Eli sucks and can't play (plenty of others are doing that). They are using terms like the "KC Model", they are saying they will bring in that QB this year.

We've heard from a few people that they aren't necessarily enamored with Haskins. The best QB prospect is Murray. Gettleman has the bullets right now to go get a QB. I've said on a few other posts, I'll be pretty pissed if he trades up to 3 with the Jets or whoever to get Haskins or Lock and burns his draft capital to do so since I don't think those guys are really any better than Rosen. If Murray is off the board, unless one of those guys falls to them, they should just trade a 3rd and 5th to get Rosen, which is where his value will end up.

The bottom line, Gettleman is not going to think he'll be in this position next year. He thinks he will be drafting higher. They think Eli has enough in the tank to be able to train his replacement, but the organization has finally come to grips that this year might well be it for Eli. So you need to take your shot now while they have all the trade pieces. And if you are going to take your shot, "no guts, no glory" and all of that. I don't know, I'm reading the tea leaves, I think they are going to trade up to #1 and get Murray and still have enough picks in the mid rounds to fill out the roster, plus in 2020 tons of cap space.
RE: What if they don't have the draft  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14336530 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
capital to do it, can they use real capital or maybe just regular draft picks?

and what is draft capital? People sound like complete douche bags when they say things like draft capital. Is it anything other than draft picks? so why say draft capital? because some asshole on NFL Network or ESPN decided "draft picks" wasn't a fancy enough way to say draft picks?


pj, since I'm a douchebag using that term, but not on the NFL Network. I"m defining it by noting the Giants have a lot of draft picks and they are higher value considering the rounds they are in. It's not like they have a shitload of 6th and 7th round picks that are making up their high number of available picks. That's why I used that term.
If  
Giantfootball025 : 3/14/2019 12:58 pm : link
the Giants are truly rebuilding they need to keep both picks 6 and 17 and get quality players who can start right away. You don't trade the farm for a 5'9 QB. I actually like Murray and wouldn't mind drafting him at 6 or 17, I trust the scouting department to make the right decision on where his value is. I stopped letting football get me to emotional a while ago, but I would be a little upset if we gave up both draft picks to trade up in this draft for a QB. We should be filling the roster with as much young talent as we can.
Why not just trade for Rosen??  
Foobarbaz : 3/14/2019 12:59 pm : link
Way cheaper, like a 2nd and a 3rd max... Then we would have our qb problem solved
RE: RE: What if they don't have the draft  
pjcas18 : 3/14/2019 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14336578 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336530 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


capital to do it, can they use real capital or maybe just regular draft picks?

and what is draft capital? People sound like complete douche bags when they say things like draft capital. Is it anything other than draft picks? so why say draft capital? because some asshole on NFL Network or ESPN decided "draft picks" wasn't a fancy enough way to say draft picks?



pj, since I'm a douchebag using that term, but not on the NFL Network. I"m defining it by noting the Giants have a lot of draft picks and they are higher value considering the rounds they are in. It's not like they have a shitload of 6th and 7th round picks that are making up their high number of available picks. That's why I used that term.


I know you did, LOL. It was your balls I was busting.

I think people get the fact you can't trade a 6th round pick to move up. I also think term draft capital is unnecessary and it's similar to corporate buzzwords people use to say something people already understand with an existing word.
RE: If  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14336589 Giantfootball025 said:
Quote:
the Giants are truly rebuilding they need to keep both picks 6 and 17 and get quality players who can start right away. You don't trade the farm for a 5'9 QB. I actually like Murray and wouldn't mind drafting him at 6 or 17, I trust the scouting department to make the right decision on where his value is. I stopped letting football get me to emotional a while ago, but I would be a little upset if we gave up both draft picks to trade up in this draft for a QB. We should be filling the roster with as much young talent as we can.


Murray will never get past 4 (the Raiders). The price tags start at 1-3, if the Giants want Murray.

Again, to me, given the choice, I either trade up to get Murray at whatever spot they can ahead of the Raiders. Or if the Cardinals take him, I trade for Rosen since I'd rather keep the 6th and 17th picks to help upgrade the talent on the roster. I don't touch Haskins, Lock or Jones because Rosen is pretty much the same prospect, only he's got a year in the league and lower cap hit and won't cost a first round pick to take.
No way would I do that  
montanagiant : 3/14/2019 1:04 pm : link
That's the kind of trade you make for a definitive can't miss prospect. Especially with all the other spots we need help at. That would put this team back 3-4 years
1st round trade up  
2cents : 3/14/2019 1:04 pm : link
I dont expect them to trade up into the top 5 but i wouldn't rule out a trade up from 17 when they see a guy they like start to slide. Everyone likes to throw out the "Kansas city" model sarcastically but this is would be similar to them moving up for Mahomes @ 10. a qb at 17 may not scream franchise potential but weve seen plenty go top 15.
Not  
Giantfootball025 : 3/14/2019 1:06 pm : link
sure I agree Haskins, Lock, Jones are the same prospect as Rosen. Rosen was extremely polished coming out of college. Haskins and Murray are a bit of unknowns, Lock is big, athletic, and has a cannon, but has consistency issues (especially under pressure). Jones is honestly the wildcard. I honestly haven't' seen the guy enough to really have an opinion. And I try not to go off of what I read all the time especially around draft time because there's a lot of mis information out there.
RE: RE: RE: What if they don't have the draft  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14336595 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14336578 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


In comment 14336530 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


capital to do it, can they use real capital or maybe just regular draft picks?

and what is draft capital? People sound like complete douche bags when they say things like draft capital. Is it anything other than draft picks? so why say draft capital? because some asshole on NFL Network or ESPN decided "draft picks" wasn't a fancy enough way to say draft picks?



pj, since I'm a douchebag using that term, but not on the NFL Network. I"m defining it by noting the Giants have a lot of draft picks and they are higher value considering the rounds they are in. It's not like they have a shitload of 6th and 7th round picks that are making up their high number of available picks. That's why I used that term.



I know you did, LOL. It was your balls I was busting.

I think people get the fact you can't trade a 6th round pick to move up. I also think term draft capital is unnecessary and it's similar to corporate buzzwords people use to say something people already understand with an existing word.
'

Being in the corporate world for 20+ years now, I can appreciate good corporate speak. My favorite is when I'm in a meeting with a millennial who busts them out and has no clue that

1) they are using buzzwords and the rest of the room sees through it
2) what they actually mean

I could have said the Giants would leverage their draft capital to reallocate resources with a focus on the QB position with a forecast plan of drafting in a different position next year in anticipation of a better record and utilize different assets to fill out the roster and cap space in 2020.

Now that is doucebag corporate speak in NFL'ese.
RE: I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14336449 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
They get a couple of breaks along the way and end up 8-8 with a pick around 17? It's not far fetched at all


It is absolutely far fetched to think this sorryass team wins more than 4 games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What if they don't have the draft  
pjcas18 : 3/14/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14336628 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336595 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 14336578 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


In comment 14336530 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


capital to do it, can they use real capital or maybe just regular draft picks?

and what is draft capital? People sound like complete douche bags when they say things like draft capital. Is it anything other than draft picks? so why say draft capital? because some asshole on NFL Network or ESPN decided "draft picks" wasn't a fancy enough way to say draft picks?



pj, since I'm a douchebag using that term, but not on the NFL Network. I"m defining it by noting the Giants have a lot of draft picks and they are higher value considering the rounds they are in. It's not like they have a shitload of 6th and 7th round picks that are making up their high number of available picks. That's why I used that term.



I know you did, LOL. It was your balls I was busting.

I think people get the fact you can't trade a 6th round pick to move up. I also think term draft capital is unnecessary and it's similar to corporate buzzwords people use to say something people already understand with an existing word.

'

Being in the corporate world for 20+ years now, I can appreciate good corporate speak. My favorite is when I'm in a meeting with a millennial who busts them out and has no clue that

1) they are using buzzwords and the rest of the room sees through it
2) what they actually mean

I could have said the Giants would leverage their draft capital to reallocate resources with a focus on the QB position with a forecast plan of drafting in a different position next year in anticipation of a better record and utilize different assets to fill out the roster and cap space in 2020.

Now that is doucebag corporate speak in NFL'ese.


LOL. If only you'd thrown in a paradigm shift, synergy, cloud, and disruption in there I'd feel like I'm on a work conference call.

Bravo.
RE: 1st round trade up  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 1:11 pm : link
In comment 14336612 2cents said:
Quote:
I dont expect them to trade up into the top 5 but i wouldn't rule out a trade up from 17 when they see a guy they like start to slide. Everyone likes to throw out the "Kansas city" model sarcastically but this is would be similar to them moving up for Mahomes @ 10. a qb at 17 may not scream franchise potential but weve seen plenty go top 15.


The "Kansas City Model" was actually used by the Giants in 1993. They had Dave Brown and Kent Graham behind Phil Simms. The plan was for them to learn under Phil and one of them would win the QB competition in 1994. The problem was, neither of those guys were any good and the Giants roster wasn't good enough to even prop them up. You could say Aaron Rodgers behind Favre was the Kansas City Model too.

All it means is you have an aging QB that you plan on getting rid of, but not just yet. So sit the kid behind him and let him learn instead of throwing him to the wolves. And it also means you expect the aging QB to still be competitive and help your team win, and once they've moved on, the young guy behind him picks up with a ready made team and takes them to the next level go forward.

I'm also going by Gettleman's statement that you need to find your franchise QB early, which to me means in top 10, and probably top 5.
RE: RE: I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
Giantfootball025 : 3/14/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14336636 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14336449 AnnapolisMike said:


Quote:


They get a couple of breaks along the way and end up 8-8 with a pick around 17? It's not far fetched at all



It is absolutely far fetched to think this sorryass team wins more than 4 games.


There's a lot of off-season left. We could manage .500 with a strong running game. The Giants put up 40,37,35 in 3 of the last 4 games without Odell. I don't count the Titans game because I was in attendance that game was just miserable for both teams. I think some are really under rating what this team can be right now, because of the Odell Trade.
RE: No way would I do that  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14336611 montanagiant said:
Quote:
That's the kind of trade you make for a definitive can't miss prospect. Especially with all the other spots we need help at. That would put this team back 3-4 years


Montana, "no guts, no glory". ;)
The logic adds up, however  
j_rud : 3/14/2019 1:18 pm : link
if Arizona is as enamored with Murray as we've all been led to believe, it could take more than the standard value deal to get them to trade down.

Personally I wouldn't mind drafting the kid, although it would be hard to swallow trading away so many picks when there's such a dearth of talent on this team. Oddly enough the height thing doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it bothers others. The game has changed a lot and I'm not going to pretend I know what would and wouldn't work. Kid is an incredible talent.
I wouldn't even negotiate with the Cards  
AcesUp : 3/14/2019 1:24 pm : link
Let alone get serious negotiating. If they're seriously entertaining the idea of trading out that means that they don't intend to draft Murray. Same principle applies to the axiom that "if you love a QB you do whatever it takes to grab him" applies to not trading out of a spot if your QB is sitting there. If they're entertaining, they're posturing and trying to leverage a trade down.

I'd call their bluff and target the Jets at 3 because I think the Raiders are the real threats. Our two firsts would get it done IMO.
RE: RE: 1st round trade up  
2cents : 3/14/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14336650 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336612 2cents said:


Quote:


I dont expect them to trade up into the top 5 but i wouldn't rule out a trade up from 17 when they see a guy they like start to slide. Everyone likes to throw out the "Kansas city" model sarcastically but this is would be similar to them moving up for Mahomes @ 10. a qb at 17 may not scream franchise potential but weve seen plenty go top 15.



The "Kansas City Model" was actually used by the Giants in 1993. They had Dave Brown and Kent Graham behind Phil Simms. The plan was for them to learn under Phil and one of them would win the QB competition in 1994. The problem was, neither of those guys were any good and the Giants roster wasn't good enough to even prop them up. You could say Aaron Rodgers behind Favre was the Kansas City Model too.

All it means is you have an aging QB that you plan on getting rid of, but not just yet. So sit the kid behind him and let him learn instead of throwing him to the wolves. And it also means you expect the aging QB to still be competitive and help your team win, and once they've moved on, the young guy behind him picks up with a ready made team and takes them to the next level go forward.

I'm also going by Gettleman's statement that you need to find your franchise QB early, which to me means in top 10, and probably top 5.


I probably shouldn't have mentioned "KC model" because its not super relevant to my point. I was more so responding to a few of the comments above about taking Lock or Daniel Jones later in the first would be stupid. we have seen many successful qbs come from the middle of the 1st round. It would be a much more conservative play than going all out for #1. Just in general i think theyre in a really good spot to target someone they value highly that slips past 10 to move up from 17.

and yes DG did say the no guts no glory line which would indicate a top 5 move but he also repeatedly told us OBJ wasnt going to be traded so i dont know what to believe anymore.
RE: RE: RE: I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
Greg from LI : 3/14/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14336659 Giantfootball025 said:
Quote:
There's a lot of off-season left. We could manage .500 with a strong running game. The Giants put up 40,37,35 in 3 of the last 4 games without Odell. I don't count the Titans game because I was in attendance that game was just miserable for both teams. I think some are really under rating what this team can be right now, because of the Odell Trade.


We have the worst defense in football. Kind of have to take that into account.
RE: The logic adds up, however  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14336680 j_rud said:
Quote:
if Arizona is as enamored with Murray as we've all been led to believe, it could take more than the standard value deal to get them to trade down.

Personally I wouldn't mind drafting the kid, although it would be hard to swallow trading away so many picks when there's such a dearth of talent on this team. Oddly enough the height thing doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it bothers others. The game has changed a lot and I'm not going to pretend I know what would and wouldn't work. Kid is an incredible talent.


In which case, the Giants engaging the Cardinals on Rosen is doubly useful. If the Cardinals are thinking of holding on to Rosen, the Giants will know they aren't going for Murray. If they are talking Rosen, they know they are serious about Murray, and potentially what it would take to pry the pick.
RE: RE: The logic adds up, however  
j_rud : 3/14/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14336724 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336680 j_rud said:


Quote:


if Arizona is as enamored with Murray as we've all been led to believe, it could take more than the standard value deal to get them to trade down.

Personally I wouldn't mind drafting the kid, although it would be hard to swallow trading away so many picks when there's such a dearth of talent on this team. Oddly enough the height thing doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it bothers others. The game has changed a lot and I'm not going to pretend I know what would and wouldn't work. Kid is an incredible talent.



In which case, the Giants engaging the Cardinals on Rosen is doubly useful. If the Cardinals are thinking of holding on to Rosen, the Giants will know they aren't going for Murray. If they are talking Rosen, they know they are serious about Murray, and potentially what it would take to pry the pick.


Sure, but if they really are set on Murray it could take more than the standard, which is already quite a bit, to pry the pick free. If they like him enough they may not even be willing to trade at all.

Conversely, if they are ready to roll with Rosen do you risk trading up to 2 or 3 instead of going all the way to one to save some picks? Or do you leave nothing to chance and ensure you get your guy? I'm guessing the latter.

I'd feel better about trading for Rosen. I liked him last year and it would leave you with more picks to build around him. Admittedly the ceiling isn't as high. It's easy to read too much into this stuff but the guts/glory comment and the Beckham trade does make it feel like they're getting ready to do something wild.
Fromm  
Philu916 : 3/14/2019 1:52 pm : link
Iím a huge UGA fan, and Fromm is way over rated and chokes early on. Heís had 2 chances to just play a decent 2nd half and beat Alabama and did absolutely 0 both games. It wouldnít be a massive surprise if heís a Tannehil type of QB in the pros. Needless to say I wouldnít pass up Haskins, Murray or even Rosen for Fromm. Rosen has the potential of leaving football Iíve heard since he doesnít need the $ and doesnít want to risk long term health problems.
Looks like I have a new white whale to obsess over......  
djm : 3/14/2019 1:55 pm : link
Make the move for Murray!! If zona is at all approachable do it!
RE: Fromm  
GFAN52 : 3/14/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14336805 Philu916 said:
Quote:
Iím a huge UGA fan, and Fromm is way over rated and chokes early on. Heís had 2 chances to just play a decent 2nd half and beat Alabama and did absolutely 0 both games. It wouldnít be a massive surprise if heís a Tannehil type of QB in the pros. Needless to say I wouldnít pass up Haskins, Murray or even Rosen for Fromm. Rosen has the potential of leaving football Iíve heard since he doesnít need the $ and doesnít want to risk long term health problems.


Murray has the option of leaving the NFL for the MLB.
I would be shocked and also very worried  
Chris684 : 3/14/2019 2:02 pm : link
if we took this accumulation of picks and dumped them on Arizona for Murray.

Obviously who they like is who they like, but I'd much rather hear they believe in Haskins at 6 as I believe he'll be there for the taking.
RE: Murray  
Leg of Theismann : 3/14/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14335950 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:


Right, I mean could you ever imagine wanting the shorter QB in this picture? Plus I mean obviously the taller guy is less injury prone, right?

RE: Murray  
djm : 3/14/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14335950 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:


And we have never seen a qb fail at the nfl level because he was too short. Thanks for playing tho.
ďWe have too many holes to trade upĒ  
djm : 3/14/2019 2:15 pm : link
Said nearly everyone in 2004. Howíd that turn out?
RE: RE: The logic adds up, however  
Giants38 : 3/14/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14336724 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336680 j_rud said:


Quote:


if Arizona is as enamored with Murray as we've all been led to believe, it could take more than the standard value deal to get them to trade down.

Personally I wouldn't mind drafting the kid, although it would be hard to swallow trading away so many picks when there's such a dearth of talent on this team. Oddly enough the height thing doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it bothers others. The game has changed a lot and I'm not going to pretend I know what would and wouldn't work. Kid is an incredible talent.



In which case, the Giants engaging the Cardinals on Rosen is doubly useful. If the Cardinals are thinking of holding on to Rosen, the Giants will know they aren't going for Murray. If they are talking Rosen, they know they are serious about Murray, and potentially what it would take to pry the pick.


Matt: I hope youíre right, and I Love Murray. The problem is you canít trade OBJ as a first step to moving up in the draft unless you know you can move up. Otherwise if you canít ultimately move up, youíre left looking like a jackass. They must have numerous thoughts, 1 being moving up. If that doesnít work, maybe they are ok with just using the picks. Or maybe 17 will go towards a different QB, like Lock or Jones. I have no clue.

The reason Iím ok with the price it would cost to move up is two fold: 1) most importantly, Murray is unreal; and 2) while giving up a high 2nd round pick next year will hurt, we can easily recoup picks by trading down to a QB needy team next season. Miami will be picking towards the top of the draft, but other teams like Cincy, maybe Pitt, etc May want to vault into the top 3 to get their QBs. We could make a killing.

Frankly, DG can think whatever he wants about this roster. Itís awful. Mike Clay put out the metrics, and we are second from the bottom. He can shine it up however he likes, but itís horrid. We are a 2-14 team. I really believe that.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/14/2019 2:17 pm : link
Murray is extremely impressive when you look at the tape.

But man, he is one small QB.

If you think Murray is too short  
Lambuth_Special : 3/14/2019 2:21 pm : link
Wait until you see gangly-a%$ Herbert try to be an NFL QB.

That's right, reverse height discrimination.
RE: ...  
j_rud : 3/14/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14336874 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Murray is extremely impressive when you look at the tape.

But man, he is one small QB.


Right? Watching him, you have two contradictory facts screaming at you. The first is that he's a really, really good football player. The second is that he's just too small to be a really, really good football player.

I wouldn't be upset if they took a shot on him. At least it would feel like they're stepping out of their organizational comfort zone.
RE: Why not just trade for Rosen??  
VinegarPeppers : 3/14/2019 2:24 pm : link
I think Rosen lacks passion and leadership. I could see him retiring early as well.


In comment 14336593 Foobarbaz said:
Quote:
Way cheaper, like a 2nd and a 3rd max... Then we would have our qb problem solved
RE: RE: No way would I do that  
montanagiant : 3/14/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14336664 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336611 montanagiant said:


Quote:


That's the kind of trade you make for a definitive can't miss prospect. Especially with all the other spots we need help at. That would put this team back 3-4 years



Montana, "no guts, no glory". ;)

LOL...Good point Matt
Murray maximizes Barkley  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 3/14/2019 2:41 pm : link
It's the type of "swing for the fences" move that this team needs to make. As much as I disliked the Odell move initially, if the extra picks allows us to get Murray then I will understand the motive.

He's so small but his arm/speed combo is pretty spectacular. We could have the best running game in the sport with Kyler/Barkley if we can finish up the OL, which will lead to openings downfield that Murray has the arm to exploit.

I'm so lukewarm over both Rosen and Haskins. I like Rosen a little more physically and Haskins a little more mentally, but neither guy seems special. I'm rooting for Kyler to the Giants at this point.
Unless the trade is with the Cardinals  
Beer Man : 3/14/2019 2:53 pm : link
You would not even attempt it until draft day. I am not a fan simply because of his lack of height.
RE: Murray maximizes Barkley  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/14/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14336943 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
It's the type of "swing for the fences" move that this team needs to make. As much as I disliked the Odell move initially, if the extra picks allows us to get Murray then I will understand the motive.

He's so small but his arm/speed combo is pretty spectacular. We could have the best running game in the sport with Kyler/Barkley if we can finish up the OL, which will lead to openings downfield that Murray has the arm to exploit.

I'm so lukewarm over both Rosen and Haskins. I like Rosen a little more physically and Haskins a little more mentally, but neither guy seems special. I'm rooting for Kyler to the Giants at this point.


It would be a gigantic swing for the fences... it would be one of the most conservative organizations in the NFL breaking the QB mold in a revolutionary fashion. Boom or bust.
Many people say  
SJGiant : 3/14/2019 3:03 pm : link
That the Giants have too many holes to fix to use the assets for a Qb like Murray, well, if you think of it, you donít have a good team unless you have a franchise QB. So, if the Giants really believe in Murray, then who cares how many holes we have on the team. This will be a key building block for 2020. We will suck big time this year. But at least we have a future.
RE: RE: Murray maximizes Barkley  
SGMen : 3/14/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14336988 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14336943 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


It's the type of "swing for the fences" move that this team needs to make. As much as I disliked the Odell move initially, if the extra picks allows us to get Murray then I will understand the motive.

He's so small but his arm/speed combo is pretty spectacular. We could have the best running game in the sport with Kyler/Barkley if we can finish up the OL, which will lead to openings downfield that Murray has the arm to exploit.

I'm so lukewarm over both Rosen and Haskins. I like Rosen a little more physically and Haskins a little more mentally, but neither guy seems special. I'm rooting for Kyler to the Giants at this point.



It would be a gigantic swing for the fences... it would be one of the most conservative organizations in the NFL breaking the QB mold in a revolutionary fashion. Boom or bust.
Boom or Bust is right. I keep picturing the word "instincts" as D. Gettleman is big on this facet of a player's game. Honestly, I believe Murray has that kind of talent or presence (call it instincts) but I'm not sure his body can hold up under NFL pressure. Especially if he tucks and runs a lot due to his instincts.

Look, if Murray is there at #6 (he won't be....) sure, how can you not take a shot at him? If Haskins is there at #6 (or Murray), I feel the Giants may just look to trade down if they can get extra picks. I say this because I see Gettleman as more of a "this is my board, these are my guys, and these QB's have too much risk to risk it..." kine of guy. I mean, if someone gives us a 9 - 13 area type pick plus next year's #1 for Haskins why not???

But I'm getting ahead of myself. I see us taking LB D. White at #6 assuming Bosa, Murray, Haskins, Allen, are all off the board and they likely will be...

D. White starts game 1 and I would NOT be shocked if he played at a probowl level as a rookie. Safe, solid, need pick all wrapped into 1. I hope a RT is there at #17, and round 2 maybe a WR or an OC.
RE: RE: Murray maximizes Barkley  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 3/14/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14336988 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It would be a gigantic swing for the fences... it would be one of the most conservative organizations in the NFL breaking the QB mold in a revolutionary fashion. Boom or bust.


100%. It would be uncharacteristic based on what we know about this franchise. But maybe they've realized that their conservative style has led to long-term mediocrity and it might be time to try something new.

I just don't want to waste Barkley, and I feel like the risk with Murray is worth the reward.

RE: RE: Murray maximizes Barkley  
giants#1 : 3/14/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14336988 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14336943 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


It's the type of "swing for the fences" move that this team needs to make. As much as I disliked the Odell move initially, if the extra picks allows us to get Murray then I will understand the motive.

He's so small but his arm/speed combo is pretty spectacular. We could have the best running game in the sport with Kyler/Barkley if we can finish up the OL, which will lead to openings downfield that Murray has the arm to exploit.

I'm so lukewarm over both Rosen and Haskins. I like Rosen a little more physically and Haskins a little more mentally, but neither guy seems special. I'm rooting for Kyler to the Giants at this point.



It would be a gigantic swing for the fences... it would be one of the most conservative organizations in the NFL breaking the QB mold in a revolutionary fashion. Boom or bust.


I don't think Shurmur is conservative and/or tied to the traditional coaching philosophies though. So if they defer to his opinion on the next QB, I could see him loving Murray assuming he passes the blackboard test.
One other point as we see this  
Matt in SGS : 3/14/2019 3:13 pm : link
and I"m curious as we keep an eye on Eli's contract. At the end of the season, remember that Eli went into Gettleman's office and Gettleman told us "he took me to the low post and won. " And had a "no holds barred" conversation.

This is very non-Eli like. And I'm sure that we won't be told about the context or content of this discussion until maybe after Eli retires. But based upon the moves the Giants have made since. All the trades. All the moves to get more picks, finishing in the Odell trade, it's not out of the realm that Eli went in and told Gettleman

- I want to try to win, so I'm not in it for a tank job (which Mara will never try to do, sometimes the team just stinks).
- Get me an offensive line so I don't get killed back there (which is what we've seen with the Zeitler trade and looking to find a right tackle)
- And this is the most speculation and that's why I want to see his contract situation. Would Eli tell Gettleman that this is his final season and he's done. So start thinking about finding my replacement.

The last point is the most critical to me, and I said it above. Prior to the past few weeks, we have never seen any sources around the Giants really indicate that they are trying to find the successor. Gettleman starts openly talking about "the KC Model". Even last year, as the Giants did meet with Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, etc. You never really heard any talk from the team about replacing Eli. In hindsight, the Giants did their due diligence with the QBs, but the real reason they did so was only if the Browns took Barkley. Once they passed on him, it was a no brainer for Gettleman to take him.

But so far we've heard Carl Banks talk about the Giants putting the QB of future on the team this year. Carl goes off script sometimes, but he also will provide the company line. The message to that I'm getting, the signs I'm seeing, is that the Giants are going to get a QB. And if everyone is lukewarm on Haskins and friends, the only one who makes sense for that kind of impact is Murray.
RE: No way would I do that  
bw in dc : 3/14/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14336611 montanagiant said:
Quote:
That's the kind of trade you make for a definitive can't miss prospect. Especially with all the other spots we need help at. That would put this team back 3-4 years


I'm on-board with your thinking. Loved watching Murray perform at OU this past year. The most dynamic offensive player I have ever seen in college. But the risk side of the risk-reward equation is too high for my liking to make an aggressive move up in a trade.

This is a rare, rare year loaded with defensive talent. One of the best in long, long time. We should capitalize on that pool first...
RE: RE: 1st round trade up  
Pan-handler : 3/14/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14336650 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14336612 2cents said:


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I dont expect them to trade up into the top 5 but i wouldn't rule out a trade up from 17 when they see a guy they like start to slide. Everyone likes to throw out the "Kansas city" model sarcastically but this is would be similar to them moving up for Mahomes @ 10. a qb at 17 may not scream franchise potential but weve seen plenty go top 15.



The "Kansas City Model" was actually used by the Giants in 1993. They had Dave Brown and Kent Graham behind Phil Simms. The plan was for them to learn under Phil and one of them would win the QB competition in 1994. The problem was, neither of those guys were any good and the Giants roster wasn't good enough to even prop them up. You could say Aaron Rodgers behind Favre was the Kansas City Model too.

All it means is you have an aging QB that you plan on getting rid of, but not just yet. So sit the kid behind him and let him learn instead of throwing him to the wolves. And it also means you expect the aging QB to still be competitive and help your team win, and once they've moved on, the young guy behind him picks up with a ready made team and takes them to the next level go forward.

I'm also going by Gettleman's statement that you need to find your franchise QB early, which to me means in top 10, and probably top 5.


Matt I think you put together the tea leaves about as good as anyone here.

I see alot of logic in what you are saying to how the Front office may be thinking. They decided on Eli and made a big move , if they decide that Murray is the guy they may pull the trigger. I think the package though you mentioned is huge (even moreso than weve seen when you compare the other deals). I think itll be a little less (not much less but a little less).
RE: RE: No way would I do that  
montanagiant : 3/14/2019 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14337059 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14336611 montanagiant said:


Quote:


That's the kind of trade you make for a definitive can't miss prospect. Especially with all the other spots we need help at. That would put this team back 3-4 years



I'm on-board with your thinking. Loved watching Murray perform at OU this past year. The most dynamic offensive player I have ever seen in college. But the risk side of the risk-reward equation is too high for my liking to make an aggressive move up in a trade.

This is a rare, rare year loaded with defensive talent. One of the best in long, long time. We should capitalize on that pool first...

Absolutely
RE: RE: I think planning on grabbing a QB in 2020 is dangerous business  
djm : 3/14/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14336636 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14336449 AnnapolisMike said:


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They get a couple of breaks along the way and end up 8-8 with a pick around 17? It's not far fetched at all



It is absolutely far fetched to think this sorryass team wins more than 4 games.


Really. First off itís march. Second, Iíll take that bet with you right now.
RE: Many people say  
Diver_Down : 3/14/2019 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14337003 SJGiant said:
Quote:
That the Giants have too many holes to fix to use the assets for a Qb like Murray, well, if you think of it, you donít have a good team unless you have a franchise QB. So, if the Giants really believe in Murray, then who cares how many holes we have on the team. This will be a key building block for 2020. We will suck big time this year. But at least we have a future.


The other benefit of having our QB and still being terrible is that we will have the opportunity to a) draft another QB and trade Murray, b) trade the pick to a QB needy team to round out the roster.

If we have Murray and have an opportunity to draft Tua, Miami will give us their next 3 first rounders as Ross is in love with Tua.
RE: RE: Murray  
HomerJones45 : 3/14/2019 7:06 pm : link
In comment 14336853 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14335950 HomerJones45 said:


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The guy on the left is the 6' 3" Haskins. The guy on the right is the 6'1" Tua. The guy in the middle who looks like a middle schooler is the guy the OP wants to trade up to get:




And we have never seen a qb fail at the nfl level because he was too short. Thanks for playing tho.
Thanks for your usual "insight".

He'd be the shortest guy to take the field as a qb since Eddie Lebaron who was drafted in 1950 in the 10th round and retired in 1962. Now maybe Murray is so great that he'd be the guy to step in after nearly 70 years. At the very least, the Giants would need to install an offense around Murray which means keep him out from under center and play, as he did for OKU, almost exclusively out of the shotgun. That, in turn, changes your running game because you are now featuring the shotgun running game- delays, draws, jet sweeps with little play action which limits your star running back.

I don't think some of you recognize what a gamble it is to go up against 70 years of NFL history and build an offense around a guy who is basically the same size as some middle schoolers. It's a tough decision; if he busts, you are going to be a laughingstock. It would not surprise me to see him drop out of the first round or to have other qb's taken ahead of him.
My only concern with Murray is between the ears  
Go Terps : 3/14/2019 7:10 pm : link
To make this type of trade I think you have to be 100% certain about the guy.

I think Murray can definitely play, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory in the run up to the biggest professional day of his life.

I wouldn't make the trade.
RE: My only concern with Murray is between the ears  
Sean : 3/14/2019 9:20 pm : link
In comment 14338167 Go Terps said:
Quote:
To make this type of trade I think you have to be 100% certain about the guy.

I think Murray can definitely play, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory in the run up to the biggest professional day of his life.

I wouldn't make the trade.


Murray is in the same mold of Lamar Jackson in terms of running & most believe he has a far better arm. Murray + Barkley is very enticing to me, but yes it is extremely risky.
I know we need a QB of the future  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 3/14/2019 9:28 pm : link
but we have so many holes on this team. Those are too many premium picks.

Honestly, based on what's happened the past couple days...

I'd prefer the Giants roll with Eli this year, possibly even add a year and draft our replacement in 2020. The QB class in 2020 is outstanding.

Odds are... We should have a record that could warrant one of those QBs without moving up.

So... Keep building the line and the defense. Draft our guy in 2020
RE: RE: My only concern with Murray is between the ears  
bw in dc : 3/14/2019 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14338475 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14338167 Go Terps said:


Quote:


To make this type of trade I think you have to be 100% certain about the guy.

I think Murray can definitely play, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory in the run up to the biggest professional day of his life.

I wouldn't make the trade.



Murray is in the same mold of Lamar Jackson in terms of running & most believe he has a far better arm. Murray + Barkley is very enticing to me, but yes it is extremely risky.


So youíd be comfortable investing the first pick in a 5í10Ē QB to be a runner in the same sense as Jackson?
bw  
Go Terps : 3/14/2019 9:54 pm : link
I would. With any pick I'm only looking at the next three or four years. This is especially true at quarterback, where it's only worth paying an elite player.

If I draft Murray I'm thinking I've got a guy for four years, and I'm not holding back anything he can do. If he gets to the four year mark and he's Mahomes, then I'll break the bank. Otherwise I move on.
OK  
mdthedream : 3/15/2019 6:22 am : link
Saying the Eagles gave up a first doesn't mean anything what first is it? The Giants pick is just 4 away seeing if Ariz is not taking a QB and the Giants are.
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