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My feelings on the Giants

GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 11:47 am
Full disclaimer, if you disagree please offer some decent discussion below. The cheesy one liners here are worse than the insults on the playground. Lets act like adults.


Very difficult to pretend that the Giants should have everyone's full confidence right now. Morale is low, group chats with rival fans are...absolutely miserable. The Giants are undoubtedly one of the worst teams in the league. In my humble opinion, hearing Benny Mac was third on Jerry Reese's list was one of the biggest indictments of the poor operations of the organization lately. That signals a clear lack of trust and faith before the HC was even hired. Why not trust your GM's gut? Because he was on the hot seat? At that point he should have been terminated. Many here have said this. But hearing third choice bit leak out after the fact made the situation nauseating. Based on drafting and signings compared to usage, Jerry Reese and Benny Mac had a clear disconnect. Very Very hard to overcome that.

The Eli situation is such a kick to the genitalia. Eli has been compensated more than fairly, i know. To be honest, i never understood why some people defended him to the high heavens. But realizing how frustrating it is for us right now, i can't imagine how he feels. He has become the national poster boy for this org's failures. I mean the guy gets mocked all the time. Always takes it in stride. He is declining right now...but my god did this organization fail him. The Giants had a captain clutch at quarterback and they couldn't even sneak him into the playoffs in the last stretch of his career.

Nothing more rare than an all time talent stay on your team his whole career nowadays. It is such a shame it didn't work out with Odell here. Lets be objective - the Giants failed Odell with fielding consistently crappy teams and putting too much responsibility on him. Odell made mistakes in losing control of his anger, and he ruffled his feathers to a point where he had to know the line in the sand was right underneath him. I truly think this move is better for both parties. The Giants need the picks and cap flexibility, Odell deserves to play with the Browns (wow i am actually typing that) as they really are on the up. good for him. He's a good dude. Deserves to win.

The Giants took some pretty crappy detours along the way, but we've arrived the destination we knew was needed - rebuild mode. The culture rotted. The depth rotted. The toughness (aside from the 2016 defense to be fair) was honestly pathetic at times. But we're here. I think Dave Gettleman and Pat Shurmur have a very similar vision of what they want a team to look like. That is big. Shurmur improved as a coach down the stretch. He is learning too. I love his approach. I think in time he will be a good coach. I think these guys can succeed...

but the owners need to trust the people they hired. Hearing Tisch and Mara were at odds over Odell concerned me a lot. Bottom line - if the Giants ownership keeps getting involved in player decisions, we're stuck. And sadly, there own emotions have clouded their judgement on Eli...and have actually made the back end of his career worse than any of us imagined it could be.

Good teams start at the top. Bad owners - bad teams. Giants ownership needs to be better.

God i hope this team competes soon.
Nice take...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/14/2019 11:53 am : link
One of the things I am SOOOO happy about is the bold moves that Gettleman is making. For me the jury is out on him, and I'd prefer (in the end) the evaluation be made based not on moves made or not made, but on the team's production over a minimum 3-5 year span.

Having said that - bold moves like the ones he's making are going to define him early. If they work out - we'll be in good shape. If not - it will help us move on from him earlier rather than later.

One thing we don't want is a less-than-competent GM who plays everything safe all the time - makes what is the safe/prudent move and keeps his job while failing to build a contender. Doesn't seem that DG is that guy.
RE: Nice take...  
GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14336399 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
One of the things I am SOOOO happy about is the bold moves that Gettleman is making. For me the jury is out on him, and I'd prefer (in the end) the evaluation be made based not on moves made or not made, but on the team's production over a minimum 3-5 year span.

Having said that - bold moves like the ones he's making are going to define him early. If they work out - we'll be in good shape. If not - it will help us move on from him earlier rather than later.

One thing we don't want is a less-than-competent GM who plays everything safe all the time - makes what is the safe/prudent move and keeps his job while failing to build a contender. Doesn't seem that DG is that guy.


He certainly has conviction. And i agree they'll define him. Its my belief a GM and coach need 3 years to truly implement their philosophy and system. But we're in year 2 and the draft is so so vital to turning this around. Cannot mess this draft up.
RE: Nice take...  
bradshaw44 : 3/14/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14336399 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
One of the things I am SOOOO happy about is the bold moves that Gettleman is making. For me the jury is out on him, and I'd prefer (in the end) the evaluation be made based not on moves made or not made, but on the team's production over a minimum 3-5 year span.

Having said that - bold moves like the ones he's making are going to define him early. If they work out - we'll be in good shape. If not - it will help us move on from him earlier rather than later.

One thing we don't want is a less-than-competent GM who plays everything safe all the time - makes what is the safe/prudent move and keeps his job while failing to build a contender. Doesn't seem that DG is that guy.


I agree with this. We were a rudderless team that was going nowhere. The kinds of moves he's making are the kind that were needed to rid this team of past contracts. In order to go a new direction DG seems to be doing what he deems necessary to field an entirely new team. But as you mentioned, you can't really judge him until time has proven him either right or wrong.

I think he's going the route he said from day one. Strong run game, and strong lines. A more hard nosed style as opposed to the speedy or finesse style we had before.
I think you make fair points.  
mattyblue : 3/14/2019 12:07 pm : link
As much as Eli has been clutch, he has also been equally frustrating. Plenty of times he has thrown a mind boggling interception, other times he has had done great comebacks. Regardless, there is no question his best years are behind him.

I love Barkley, I think everyone does. I wanted to take a QB at the time but Barkley is an amazing player so you can argue it either way. Where I get lost is, why draft a RB when the rest of your team sucks? Then on top of it trade Odell? In order to really contend we need to get half a defense, a QB, and a number 1 receiver now. In the meantime, I read Gettleman wants a run first team like it was 1990. We donít even really have a backup RB that is all that good. Cleveland for example has Chubb, Johnson, and Hunt (I donít know if Hunt counts because who knows how long he will be suspended). My question is, does anyone else get concerned Barkley will be driven into the ground? Not only does he run the ball plenty, he is also very good and used often as a pass catcher. A lot of people have argued that DG should have taken the QB first, I used to ignore that but now I really have to wonder. How long does it take to realistically get a new QB/WR/Defense and get over any growing pains, and most likely have a new coach thrown in there as well?
Give it some time  
Beer Man : 3/14/2019 12:23 pm : link
The team was a mess when DG took over (particularly they were talent deficient and had a few too many selfish 'me first' type players in the locker room). He has now ripped off the band-aid, and the mass rebuilding has begun. It feels bad right now, because the team appears to be at rock bottom. We should know in the next couple of years if he made the right moves.

IMO, it seems like DG is trying to implement the Patriots approach of building a team around a core group of guys and constantly filling the roster with good young talent; and on occasion having to let a fan favorite go to avoid the big hits to the salary cap.

Whether people like it or not, they are doing right by Eli; and he deserves it. He has brought two SBs Championships to NY, and has been the face of the franchise for 14 (going on 15) years. I said this on another thread, but I believe he will be here to mentor his successor and for the organization to give him a well deserved farewell tour. And if we get a decent RT, he just might surprise a lot of haters in 2019.
Good post.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/14/2019 12:24 pm : link
.
Well said GiantGrit  
PhilSimms15 : 3/14/2019 12:25 pm : link
I have been a fan of this team for 50 years and the last time I remember being so despondent about their future is the 1970's. The team had poor management (Wellington) and no vision. They traded a first round pick for Craig Morton for goodness sakes.

Now, in Gettleman, the Giants are the laughing stock of the league. And unlike in some cases, this is not media created. Former GM's, players, the entire gamut cannot understand what Gettleman is doing.

Frankly, I cannot either. Get rid of two 25 year old pro bowlers? Sign a 34 year old safety? Keep paying the below average 38-year old QB way too much? Talk nonsense about competing while rebuilding - - -these indictments all lay at Gettleman's feet.

Not to mention totally ignoring analytics like it is some new fangled technology. I love Barkley but he was a poor and expensive pick when there was a deep QB draft.

Enough with blaming Reese, he's history. And no doubt Reese got the franchise in this trouble (with help from Mr. nepotism Chris Mara). But now the GM (and Mr. Nepotism are making horrible decisions too).

Without a bit of dumb luck, I am not sure this team will compete again until the DG and Shurmur team is kicked out the door.
RE: I think you make fair points.  
GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14336437 mattyblue said:
Quote:
As much as Eli has been clutch, he has also been equally frustrating. Plenty of times he has thrown a mind boggling interception, other times he has had done great comebacks. Regardless, there is no question his best years are behind him.

I love Barkley, I think everyone does. I wanted to take a QB at the time but Barkley is an amazing player so you can argue it either way. Where I get lost is, why draft a RB when the rest of your team sucks? Then on top of it trade Odell? In order to really contend we need to get half a defense, a QB, and a number 1 receiver now. In the meantime, I read Gettleman wants a run first team like it was 1990. We donít even really have a backup RB that is all that good. Cleveland for example has Chubb, Johnson, and Hunt (I donít know if Hunt counts because who knows how long he will be suspended). My question is, does anyone else get concerned Barkley will be driven into the ground? Not only does he run the ball plenty, he is also very good and used often as a pass catcher. A lot of people have argued that DG should have taken the QB first, I used to ignore that but now I really have to wonder. How long does it take to realistically get a new QB/WR/Defense and get over any growing pains, and most likely have a new coach thrown in there as well?


All fair and logical questions to ask. If he botches the transition at QB i'll define his legacy. I actually like Gallman. But yes, many here are now concerned Barkley's workload will be too large.

Personally believe that the running philsophy is a bit over blown here - i don't think they are going to run Barkley 40 times (nor do i hope) but there is legitimacy to the fact the last couple of years, most moves made were to help the pass game.

One game that stood out to me was the Broncos game in 2017. One of the few games in the last few years where they stuck with the run game. 31 rushes to 19 passes. Odell and Shep were both out - they literally had no choice but to ground and pound. I'd like that philosophy coupled with some solid play action.I also like the idea of building around a solid run game because it'll make Eli's life easier. More importantly, it'll help ease in the next guy.
RE: Well said GiantGrit  
Beer Man : 3/14/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14336509 PhilSimms15 said:
Quote:
I have been a fan of this team for 50 years and the last time I remember being so despondent about their future is the 1970's. The team had poor management (Wellington) and no vision. They traded a first round pick for Craig Morton for goodness sakes.

Now, in Gettleman, the Giants are the laughing stock of the league. And unlike in some cases, this is not media created. Former GM's, players, the entire gamut cannot understand what Gettleman is doing.

Frankly, I cannot either. Get rid of two 25 year old pro bowlers? Sign a 34 year old safety? Keep paying the below average 38-year old QB way too much? Talk nonsense about competing while rebuilding - - -these indictments all lay at Gettleman's feet.

Not to mention totally ignoring analytics like it is some new fangled technology. I love Barkley but he was a poor and expensive pick when there was a deep QB draft.

Enough with blaming Reese, he's history. And no doubt Reese got the franchise in this trouble (with help from Mr. nepotism Chris Mara). But now the GM (and Mr. Nepotism are making horrible decisions too).

Without a bit of dumb luck, I am not sure this team will compete again until the DG and Shurmur team is kicked out the door.
How do you know they are horrible decisions? He hasn't yet used the capital he gained. The verdict will take a couple of years before we know. How many of Jerry's off-season moves did BBI applaud and go nuts over, only to find a few years later they were busts?
really well said...  
peteschweaty : 3/14/2019 12:34 pm : link
to your point about Eli...it has become a nationwide joke regarding him. I feel they have to cut ties and do it soon. get that cap money back and move on...even if it's a stop gap measure until next yrs draft. if he's under center and they're 1-6 Metlife will be a sh*t show.
RE: Well said GiantGrit  
GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14336509 PhilSimms15 said:
Quote:
I have been a fan of this team for 50 years and the last time I remember being so despondent about their future is the 1970's. The team had poor management (Wellington) and no vision. They traded a first round pick for Craig Morton for goodness sakes.

Now, in Gettleman, the Giants are the laughing stock of the league. And unlike in some cases, this is not media created. Former GM's, players, the entire gamut cannot understand what Gettleman is doing.

Frankly, I cannot either. Get rid of two 25 year old pro bowlers? Sign a 34 year old safety? Keep paying the below average 38-year old QB way too much? Talk nonsense about competing while rebuilding - - -these indictments all lay at Gettleman's feet.

Not to mention totally ignoring analytics like it is some new fangled technology. I love Barkley but he was a poor and expensive pick when there was a deep QB draft.

Enough with blaming Reese, he's history. And no doubt Reese got the franchise in this trouble (with help from Mr. nepotism Chris Mara). But now the GM (and Mr. Nepotism are making horrible decisions too).

Without a bit of dumb luck, I am not sure this team will compete again until the DG and Shurmur team is kicked out the door.


Can't dispute any of that. It had to get worse here before it turned around, but not taking the qb last year will be a debate until they identify the next guy and he proves himself.

I see where the criticism is coming from and i agree with some of it. I can't defend last offseason's signings unless Solder plays more consistently this year as well as Ogletree. You can't use the excuse "he corrects mistakes quickly". Eventually that falls apart.

I will go so far as saying this draft will make or break this regime. If they find 4-6 starters we'll be in good shape moving forward. You simply can't mess up 12 picks. We'll see.
I only disagree  
Bones : 3/14/2019 12:41 pm : link
Concerning your statement that the owners should "trust" the GM. Trust is to be earned, and while I believe the Giants ownership is amongst the lamest in the league, I feel the big decisions need Front office, coach and ownership involvement.
RE: really well said...  
GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14336527 peteschweaty said:
Quote:
to your point about Eli...it has become a nationwide joke regarding him. I feel they have to cut ties and do it soon. get that cap money back and move on...even if it's a stop gap measure until next yrs draft. if he's under center and they're 1-6 Metlife will be a sh*t show.


Exactly. Weird to type it but i think the better move is to cut him so he preserves his W-L. Stop the bleeding on his legacy. 10-15 years from now, will he really care he didn't play under center during the start of a rebuild? Most fans are really upset with the state of the team - i don't see a farewell tour going as planned.
RE: I only disagree  
GiantGrit : 3/14/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14336540 Bones said:
Quote:
Concerning your statement that the owners should "trust" the GM. Trust is to be earned, and while I believe the Giants ownership is amongst the lamest in the league, I feel the big decisions need Front office, coach and ownership involvement.


Ownership should always be cued into what is going on, and decisions like Eli or Odell should be brought their way before a decision is made. The issue here is it seems they're emotions and beliefs have halted objective decision making at times. That is not good.
Valid points  
WestCoastGiant56 : 3/14/2019 1:24 pm : link
on the Giants failing Odell.

I'd also add that having your name in trade rumors for 1.5+ years can do some damage as well. I get it, they are millionaires and it's a business, but young players in their early 20s still need off-field coaching and mentoring.
Time to rip off the bandaid and move on  
morrison40 : 3/14/2019 1:25 pm : link
We could have stayed the old course , kept the recognizable fan favorites Richburg, Pugh,JPP, Snacks, OV, OBJ, maybe win a couple more games and everyone gets to keep their favorite Giants Fan jersey and stay mired in mediocrity for the next decade. Lets see what DG can do
Ripping the band off  
RollBlue : 3/14/2019 1:41 pm : link
mean't moving on from Eli a year ago. That band aid is still in place. I do think he plays his contract out this year and retires, at least I hope so...
RE: I only disagree  
Giants38 : 3/14/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14336540 Bones said:
Quote:
Concerning your statement that the owners should "trust" the GM. Trust is to be earned, and while I believe the Giants ownership is amongst the lamest in the league, I feel the big decisions need Front office, coach and ownership involvement.


I agree with you here. Just because something was a ďmessĒ to begin with doesnít mean you attempt to fix it by taking a baseball bat to the rest of it. You certainly donít look at the good items - the ones you save, like OBJ - and break them too.

I donít care if heís acting with conviction. Acting foolishly with conviction is still acting foolishly. As someone said before, we are the joke of the league. Any team would have cut Eli. Not us. Any team would have held onto OBJ - or at least demanded a bigger return. Not us. This guy is an unmitigated disaster.
Gettleman s mistake was thinking  
joeinpa : 3/14/2019 2:41 pm : link
This team could compete last year

Doing this season what they should have done last season.
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