curious as to why 1 year, i guess prove youre healthy type deal...also allows for young edge guys to step up and start next year if we dont want to resign
I feel like I'm in the scene from The Wizard of OZ where the munchkins are celebrating the house landing atop the Wicked Witch of the East. Hope the price is right.
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
Key stat: Has notched 110 total pressures over his first two seasons in the league.
Not so much secret as continually overlooked, Golden has developed into a formidable edge defender, and has only been in the league for two years. He posted 53 total pressures in 2016, and upped his run stops to 41, the fourth-most of all edge defenders over the season. Golden graded well against the run and pass, and could have yet more untapped potential in year three.
so does bbi see a plan or do most continue to bad mouth everything
this FO does? the emotional cycles on the site and the animosity has almost become unbearable. agree with signing of defensive Golden, wait to see about offensive Golden.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
this FO does? the emotional cycles on the site and the animosity has almost become unbearable. agree with signing of defensive Golden, wait to see about offensive Golden.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
Good point. Thanks for sharing the Belichick podcast bit the other day. Great listen.
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
Good point. Thanks for sharing the Belichick podcast bit the other day. Great listen.
No sweat. The guy is a genius.
Every time I think about Belichick and how he runs the Patriots, I wonder if the best way to structure your roster is to have 53 players all on 1 year contracts each earning 1/53 of the salary cap. Winning in the NFL is about coaching, culture, and injury luck; once you get to the NFL level the talent is tight enough that 53 coachable guys will perform better than 53 more talented but less coachable guys.
The key is to have the coaching staff in place. I don't believe the Giants do right now.
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
I could be wrong but I remember Phil Rizzuto saying players should be on one year contracts. He was talking about MLB but the logic is basically the same.
Just when I think you couldnt be any dumber Gettleman
this FO does? the emotional cycles on the site and the animosity has almost become unbearable. agree with signing of defensive Golden, wait to see about offensive Golden.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
I don't think Markus Golden signifies that they have a plan.
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
I could be wrong but I remember Phil Rizzuto saying players should be on one year contracts. He was talking about MLB but the logic is basically the same.
Actually it was charlie Finley, the infamous owner of the 70's A's.
IMO as much hand-wringing as we do over specific picks being right or wrong, it seems their success depends much more on usage and individual development. I too am not sure if NYG has that in place, but then I'd say until TC won the SB most were as uncertain
It helps if that person has control of personnel or is in harmony with the FO. But consistently being able to get the most out of whatever you have thru usage and talent development you'd think is way more impactful than just draft or FA strategy both short & long term
All much easier said than done no matter the situation of course
First thing that we did this off season that I actually don't question. jtgiants said there was another defensive guy we're going after, right?
Same. First move this offseason that doesn't completely suck. 2016 was his last really good year, though. Still, on a one year deal, I like it. He'll be motivated, and it's not like he's good enough to cost us anything.
Skipping a great front 7 player (likely drop this year) at 6,17 or 37 to slightly reach for a medium quality tackle or simply decent or possibility at wr at those spots.
Even if such is, would be, a push ....any other year. Because of the likely hood of that sort of drop this draft. I.e. greats on D front 7 and the benefit of many such on a team.
Which (normal valued OT or wr) would not be an example of clear thinking in such a case.
he's had 2 down years, 1 injured, 1 in a new scheme. Now he goes back to his old scheme and if he puts up a healthy + productive season he'll likely get at least double the guaranteed money he would have gotten this year. Maybe triple.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
RE: What we seem to have done so far is replace players that we lost.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
Same. To me the most odd thing is that for years there has been consensus they were delusional trying to compete and needed to rebuild. What do they think that looks like? Cutting old players does nothing to add talent. Getting more high draft picks does. And you don't usually get high draft picks for bad players, you have to give up good ones.
RE: What we seem to have done so far is replace players that we lost.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
+1
RE: What we seem to have done so far is replace players that we lost.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
Exactly right... And good reason to be excited about the draft... The pessimism on this site is truly beyond belief... Who needs enemies with friends like this!!
With Remmers and perhaps one more free agent on defense, the Giants will head into the draft with more promise than they have had in years. As stated elsewhere, the best players available in the draft are clearly on defense... I am confident Gettleman will ruthlessly stick to best player available drafting... If so, we will have our "Barkley" on defense (Allen, Gary, Sweat etc) and then add several additional immediate starters depending on how the chips fall.
There was no easy way to excise the lost decade of abysmal drafting and abominable management of talent... progress is painful...
Skipping a great front 7 player (likely drop this year) at 6,17 or 37 to slightly reach for a medium quality tackle or simply decent or possibility at wr at those spots....
He has only a 1 year deal. If he has a very good year, the Giants may not want to re-sign him for big bucks.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Key phrase - when done right.
This stuff matters. There's going to be a ton of pushback on this shit because of Stewart and the Captain America strategy Reese came out of nowhere with a few years ago - but the culture does matter.
Talent will win you many football games - but structure is key.
signing. He has a lot of talent if he's recovered. He'll be eager to do well and become a FA next year. And if he leaves, we might get a comp pick in 2021.
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Key phrase - when done right.
This stuff matters. There's going to be a ton of pushback on this shit because of Stewart and the Captain America strategy Reese came out of nowhere with a few years ago - but the culture does matter.
Talent will win you many football games - but structure is key.
Agreed Arc
He sure looked like he'd lost a step or two last year
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Im with you Vernon totally got a bad rep by Giants fans. I didnt like the injury prone mantra, I think the guy hit some hard luck during his time here.
Where I think the comparisons hit the grey area for me, is that I actually feel Vernon is a better 4-3 end and Golden is a better 3-4 OLB. Both players are in better scheme fits for 2019 IMO. If both stay healthy I think both players are in a better fit.
and he wasn't a fast explosive guy to begin with. his things seemed to be hard work, effort, and strength. I'm confident that Bettcher will get the most of what he brings to the table though.
he seemed to be 1 step late all the time, when he wasn't getting a roughing the passer penalty. He played hard, gave what he could but was always injured. He beat lower level tackles, but rarely did anything against the upper level players.
My opinion is he came nowhere close to earning that big contract. It was not from lack of effort. My one word to describe him - "almost" - as in he almost got there.
RE: so does bbi see a plan or do most continue to bad mouth everything
this FO does? the emotional cycles on the site and the animosity has almost become unbearable. agree with signing of defensive Golden, wait to see about offensive Golden.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
You're kidding, right? You just started following the Giants this year? How well do you think the team has performed after 2011?
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Vernon definitely gets a bad rap here, largely because of the expectations that came with his contract, but I think you're selling Golden short:
1. Most of his games missed are due to a single injury that cost him most of 2017 and the start of 2018. For someone that likes stats as much as you, you sure are twisting things to suit your case.
2. Golden had 110 pressures in his first 2 seasons, both under Bettcher as a 34 OLB. In 2016 alone, he had 53 pressures (12.5 sacks which is better than OV's career high) and 41 run stops which was good for 4th most among edge defenders.
If both stay healthy, it'll be interesting to see who has the better year. Link - ( New Window )
always gave 110% but always had an injury to battle through. Just got snake-bit once he signed here. Also had really bad luck with closing in on sacks when all the hard work getting there was done. Just a very strange situation.
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Vernon definitely gets a bad rap here, largely because of the expectations that came with his contract, but I think you're selling Golden short:
1. Most of his games missed are due to a single injury that cost him most of 2017 and the start of 2018. For someone that likes stats as much as you, you sure are twisting things to suit your case.
2. Golden had 110 pressures in his first 2 seasons, both under Bettcher as a 34 OLB. In 2016 alone, he had 53 pressures (12.5 sacks which is better than OV's career high) and 41 run stops which was good for 4th most among edge defenders.
If both stay healthy, it'll be interesting to see who has the better year. Link - ( New Window )
Understand the poster. ANYTHING DG does will come under ridicule. In fairness, he is not alone.
you are misinterpreting my points so Ill make them again very succinctly.
Gettleman / Maras are not following analytical frameworks that have proven to work IE sticking with an aging and declining QB, or picking an RB very high in the draft without having surrounding talent and especially a discounted formula.
Even if they were making all the right moves there is plenty of evidence that the orginization is not investing in analytical frameworks that have worked very well for other teams, some decades and are likely to become even more vital to have in the near future.
I dont think everything Gettleman does is wrong, I dont think anyone here does. I would say what is more common and strange is some suggesting everything he and the team does is right especially considering the product they have been putting on the field, and the very clear errors that Gettleman has already made.
And Im sorry if you dont see the ridiculous in the statement
and again, if you believe DG doesn't want to move on from him I don't know what to tell you.
Mara, IMO, dictated that Eli stays. I have no doubt DG signed up for trying it but, again its my opinion, would absolutely move on from him if he could after what he saw last season. You keep lobbing all of this analytical nonsense out there like DG's has full authority to implement whatever he wants - he doesn't.
So blame the owner is my point. DG has done a lot of good here. He's also done some bad (the 2018 FA's) but I truly don't think he's allowed to implement his full vision.
knows how to use the talent he's given. This is a guy he's worked with before who had a breakout season in his scheme. Great signing.
This general logic about using Bettcher using talent was applied to Martin, and he turned out to be a part-time, low-impact player.
Let's be real; the Giants, the market, and the player know this is a low-risk/high-reward move on a player coming off a serious injury and an unimpressive year.
RE: I think the way Eli's been handled has been poor
and again, if you believe DG doesn't want to move on from him I don't know what to tell you.
Mara, IMO, dictated that Eli stays. I have no doubt DG signed up for trying it but, again its my opinion, would absolutely move on from him if he could after what he saw last season. You keep lobbing all of this analytical nonsense out there like DG's has full authority to implement whatever he wants - he doesn't.
So blame the owner is my point. DG has done a lot of good here. He's also done some bad (the 2018 FA's) but I truly don't think he's allowed to implement his full vision.
I agree with this bit on Gettleman and the owners. And I think Gettleman wants to be the fall guy because he feels thats part of his role. He said as much in his presser.
like you Ive been posting on this board for a long time 20 years in fact. Never in my history have I been someone thats hypercritical of management or down on the Giants. I did start a Cordy Glenn over David Wilson draft day thread that did turn out to be a good call but thats really the only time I found myself really questioning something with any kind of real force.
Fast forward to last year Im sitting at the Saints game just watching Shurmur completely bungle time-out usage by sitting on them and then overcompensating the next game using too many. Both really hurting the team with something I could build a solution for them myself in a few weeks. This is something we really enjoyed doing together up until last year. I dont know how many years we have left to do this together. Weve seen this team even with a new GM continue to make mistakes and not show a tremendous grasp of how to value things, manage a coherent strategy (Landon Collins is glaring here) and whats worse doesnt seem to show that they understand the type of employer you have to be to succceed in modern times with commitments to innovation, demonstrated open mindedness and a care for what your employees think of you not just how they behave.
I dont hate everything they they are doing but frankly even if they werent making these mistakes along the way they are still making some massive ones with this clinginess to traditional management attitudes and refusal or perhaps inability to attract and hire high quality engineering talent. Flame me all you want, act like Im just trying to be here to be a malcontent, sure if that makes you feel better bottom line is Im trying to use the knowledge of my strengths (AI, systems architecture, organizational psych) and get the fan base more concerned with these things that HAVE to change sooner or later and are just flatly not being addressed or addressed quickly enough.
The people Im arguing on the other side of? I cant understand their goals or purpose, I cant understand why they arent more empathetic towards me or people like me that are tired of watching this and are actually bringing a perspective to the table with technology that many people dont have access to.
like you Ive been posting on this board for a long time 20 years in fact. Never in my history have I been someone thats hypercritical of management or down on the Giants. I did start a Cordy Glenn over David Wilson draft day thread that did turn out to be a good call but thats really the only time I found myself really questioning something with any kind of real force.
Fast forward to last year Im sitting at the Saints game just watching Shurmur completely bungle time-out usage by sitting on them and then overcompensating the next game using too many. Both really hurting the team with something I could build a solution for them myself in a few weeks. This is something we really enjoyed doing together up until last year. I dont know how many years we have left to do this together. Weve seen this team even with a new GM continue to make mistakes and not show a tremendous grasp of how to value things, manage a coherent strategy (Landon Collins is glaring here) and whats worse doesnt seem to show that they understand the type of employer you have to be to succceed in modern times with commitments to innovation, demonstrated open mindedness and a care for what your employees think of you not just how they behave.
I dont hate everything they they are doing but frankly even if they werent making these mistakes along the way they are still making some massive ones with this clinginess to traditional management attitudes and refusal or perhaps inability to attract and hire high quality engineering talent. Flame me all you want, act like Im just trying to be here to be a malcontent, sure if that makes you feel better bottom line is Im trying to use the knowledge of my strengths (AI, systems architecture, organizational psych) and get the fan base more concerned with these things that HAVE to change sooner or later and are just flatly not being addressed or addressed quickly enough.
The people Im arguing on the other side of? I cant understand their goals or purpose, I cant understand why they arent more empathetic towards me or people like me that are tired of watching this and are actually bringing a perspective to the table with technology that many people dont have access to.
knows how to use the talent he's given. This is a guy he's worked with before who had a breakout season in his scheme. Great signing.
This general logic about using Bettcher using talent was applied to Martin, and he turned out to be a part-time, low-impact player.
Let's be real; the Giants, the market, and the player know this is a low-risk/high-reward move on a player coming off a serious injury and an unimpressive year.
Not wrong but ignoring the fact his agent specifically mentioned reuniting with Bettcher.
...love to run Collins down because "Durrr, he was only good two years ago" are wetting their pants in excitement over Golden....who was only good two years ago.
RE: I think the way Eli's been handled has been poor
So blame the owner is my point. DG has done a lot of good here. He's also done some bad (the 2018 FA's) but I truly don't think he's allowed to implement his full vision.
Those dastardly Maras are kneecapping that genius Dave Gettleman!
This is a 68 year old man who has all of, what, five years as a general manager, marked by no particular distinction, a guy who upon being canned by Carolina was there for anyone to hire. But, of course, no one was interested.....except the Giants, who almost pathologically refuse to hire anyone other than people who already worked for him.
Yet we are constantly told how we simply must have complete blind faith in everything this man does. Based on what, exactly?
RE: I do really love how the exact same people who...
...love to run Collins down because "Durrr, he was only good two years ago" are wetting their pants in excitement over Golden....who was only good two years ago.
The difference is pretty clear, unless you're looking at the situation with some sort of negative bias (which you do all the time)
Collins play didn't drop because he was hurt. His deficiencies were exposed over and over again on the field. Golden was an ascending player who simply got hurt. If he's fully healed, there's no reason to believe he won't be good again. And its perfectly fine to hope thats the case.
Golden is a win-win - either he returns to form, helps us out, and nets us compensation if he walks for a big, longer-term deal - and if he sucks, or gets hurt again, it's a 1 year commit and we have no dead money or long-term BS to worry about.
Can't really see any way to not like it. There's virtually zero risk and tangible benefit.
Actually, I think it's one of the few smart things Mr. Magoo has done
...love to run Collins down because "Durrr, he was only good two years ago" are wetting their pants in excitement over Golden....who was only good two years ago.
Collins missed a season due to an ACL tear? Collins did switch from a 43 D to a 34 D (reverse of Golden) but that shouldn't be as big a change for a SS as an OLB/edge rusher.
RE: Actually, I think it's one of the few smart things Mr. Magoo has done
Ian Rapoport
Verified account @RapSheet
2m2 minutes ago
Source: AZCardinals pass-rusher Markus Golden is signing a 1-year deal with the #Giants.
They took that article down
This, twice!
Indeed, we have been showered with Goldens.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
😂😂😂
He is only in his 40's... Lets bring him back!
Not so much secret as continually overlooked, Golden has developed into a formidable edge defender, and has only been in the league for two years. He posted 53 total pressures in 2016, and upped his run stops to 41, the fourth-most of all edge defenders over the season. Golden graded well against the run and pass, and could have yet more untapped potential in year three.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
I'd assume it probably doesn't. Can't see him being too costly. Probably would cancel out BW Webb signing in Cincy.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
👍
Can t we all just get along 😄
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
Good point. Thanks for sharing the Belichick podcast bit the other day. Great listen.
Quote:
How does this affect our comp pick status??!!!???!?
.
I'd assume it probably doesn't. Can't see him being too costly. Probably would cancel out BW Webb signing in Cincy.
If he was released, it doesnt cost anything.
Quote:
In comment 14338079 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
How does this affect our comp pick status??!!!???!?
.
I'd assume it probably doesn't. Can't see him being too costly. Probably would cancel out BW Webb signing in Cincy.
If he was released, it doesnt cost anything.
Eric put on the free agent page that he was a UFA. He will count in the compensation formula.
link - ( New Window )
Quote:
One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
Good point. Thanks for sharing the Belichick podcast bit the other day. Great listen.
No sweat. The guy is a genius.
Every time I think about Belichick and how he runs the Patriots, I wonder if the best way to structure your roster is to have 53 players all on 1 year contracts each earning 1/53 of the salary cap. Winning in the NFL is about coaching, culture, and injury luck; once you get to the NFL level the talent is tight enough that 53 coachable guys will perform better than 53 more talented but less coachable guys.
The key is to have the coaching staff in place. I don't believe the Giants do right now.
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A Golden day.
Indeed, we have been showered with Goldens.
Better than Golden Showers...
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
I could be wrong but I remember Phil Rizzuto saying players should be on one year contracts. He was talking about MLB but the logic is basically the same.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
I don't think Markus Golden signifies that they have a plan.
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One of the secrets of the Pats' success is that their players are often hungry for the next contract. Other teams pay for the success that benefits that Pats, and they get the comp pick when the guy leaves.
In this CBA it's a good idea to keep the team as close to a year to year operation as possible.
I could be wrong but I remember Phil Rizzuto saying players should be on one year contracts. He was talking about MLB but the logic is basically the same.
Actually it was charlie Finley, the infamous owner of the 70's A's.
Tate replaces Beckham (--)
Golden replaces Vernon (=)
Peppers replaces Collins (=)
Bethea replaces Riley (+)
It helps if that person has control of personnel or is in harmony with the FO. But consistently being able to get the most out of whatever you have thru usage and talent development you'd think is way more impactful than just draft or FA strategy both short & long term
All much easier said than done no matter the situation of course
Same. First move this offseason that doesn't completely suck. 2016 was his last really good year, though. Still, on a one year deal, I like it. He'll be motivated, and it's not like he's good enough to cost us anything.
Tate replaces Beckham (--)
Golden replaces Vernon (=)
Peppers replaces Collins (=)
Bethea replaces Riley (+)
Also:
1st rd draft picks (+)
3rd rd picks (++) (assuming the LC comp pick comes through)
They are trying to replace talent as best they can while adding as many draft picks as they can. I think it's a pretty basic but solid strategy.
The harder part is going to be getting the draft picks right but thankfully that was 1 thing the new regime did well last year.
With Tate's signing they're likely priced out. Still think they go here pretty high in the draft.
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Zeitler replaces Brown (++)
Tate replaces Beckham (--)
Golden replaces Vernon (=)
Peppers replaces Collins (=)
Bethea replaces Riley (+)
Also:
1st rd draft picks (+)
3rd rd picks (++) (assuming the LC comp pick comes through)
They are trying to replace talent as best they can while adding as many draft picks as they can. I think it's a pretty basic but solid strategy.
The harder part is going to be getting the draft picks right but thankfully that was 1 thing the new regime did well last year.
Peppers replaces Collins (+)
Medicals maybe?
Peppers is an upgrade over Collins
Golden should be an upgrade over Vernon
Nobody can replace OBJ on the field, but if we sign a tackle and and a corner I would say free agency was a success.
Even if such is, would be, a push ....any other year. Because of the likely hood of that sort of drop this draft. I.e. greats on D front 7 and the benefit of many such on a team.
Which (normal valued OT or wr) would not be an example of clear thinking in such a case.
Probably because off ACL prove it he makes all the way back
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
Same. To me the most odd thing is that for years there has been consensus they were delusional trying to compete and needed to rebuild. What do they think that looks like? Cutting old players does nothing to add talent. Getting more high draft picks does. And you don't usually get high draft picks for bad players, you have to give up good ones.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
+1
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
Exactly right... And good reason to be excited about the draft... The pessimism on this site is truly beyond belief... Who needs enemies with friends like this!!
With Remmers and perhaps one more free agent on defense, the Giants will head into the draft with more promise than they have had in years. As stated elsewhere, the best players available in the draft are clearly on defense... I am confident Gettleman will ruthlessly stick to best player available drafting... If so, we will have our "Barkley" on defense (Allen, Gary, Sweat etc) and then add several additional immediate starters depending on how the chips fall.
There was no easy way to excise the lost decade of abysmal drafting and abominable management of talent... progress is painful...
He has only a 1 year deal. If he has a very good year, the Giants may not want to re-sign him for big bucks.
If they could snag a good EDGE guy, they will.
The Beck's thing, I get it. Ok. Fine.
Safeties ..much improved so far. Good year to stockpile picks.
I'm still 100% on using first 3 or even first 4 picks on front 7 defenders. It's the market play.
That said, I could easily see us drafting front 3 even, first and second rounds, if the draft falls that way.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Key phrase - when done right.
The Beck's thing, I get it. Ok. Fine.
Safeties ..much improved so far. Good year to stockpile picks.
I'm still 100% on using first 3 or even first 4 picks on front 7 defenders. It's the market play.
remeber you have lorenzo carter to who the giants love..
front 7 of carter, hill, timlinson, wynn, golden, goodson and ogletree is young and hungry...
I would like to add Houston as a vet in the linebacker room
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Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Key phrase - when done right.
This stuff matters. There's going to be a ton of pushback on this shit because of Stewart and the Captain America strategy Reese came out of nowhere with a few years ago - but the culture does matter.
Talent will win you many football games - but structure is key.
Carterolb, Pick#17, Ogletree, Wynnolb
Or
.....Pick#6,Hill,Tomlinson
Carter,#17,.........Ogletree,#37
Except Golden is shorter and more compact...
Quote:
In comment 14338377 Ira said:
Quote:
Obviously Tate isn't as good as Beckham, but Zeitler is better than Brown and we're probably somewhat stronger at safety. So, all in all, we're about the same, talent wise, as we were in December. But we're in better cap shape over the long hall and we have a couple of extra picks.
Keeping Beckham and Vernon and signing Collins to an expensive deal would have left us in a very weak financial position for the future. Now, we have a talent level similar to what we would have had if we played this the way everyone expected. DG is navigating free agency very intelligently. It makes me wonder how so many idiots in the media don't see this.
I think people are ignoring some of the common traits these guys possess. Markus Golden is a phenomenal teammate, a guy with a relentless work ethic. Tore his ACL and talked about it making him work even harder. Golden Tate is another lunch pail guy. Straight up grinder.
They are going for players they deem fits for the culture they desire. I know the culture word triggers people around here, i'm not trying to piss people off...but thats the very common trait i see through the draft and free agency.
The Giants are going for that non flashy but highly effective style of play. In some ways similar to the Patriots. Some call it boring - it can be. When done right, its beautiful. Solid fundamentals and wearing teams down over a game.
Key phrase - when done right.
This stuff matters. There's going to be a ton of pushback on this shit because of Stewart and the Captain America strategy Reese came out of nowhere with a few years ago - but the culture does matter.
Talent will win you many football games - but structure is key.
Agreed Arc
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Which is the point.
Here is to hoping (Mara) wont use this as an excuse to force an O pick in Rd 1.
Quote:
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Im with you Vernon totally got a bad rep by Giants fans. I didnt like the injury prone mantra, I think the guy hit some hard luck during his time here.
Where I think the comparisons hit the grey area for me, is that I actually feel Vernon is a better 4-3 end and Golden is a better 3-4 OLB. Both players are in better scheme fits for 2019 IMO. If both stay healthy I think both players are in a better fit.
My opinion is he came nowhere close to earning that big contract. It was not from lack of effort. My one word to describe him - "almost" - as in he almost got there.
Hope to see akindler and gentler bbi to say nothing of wiser.
You're kidding, right? You just started following the Giants this year? How well do you think the team has performed after 2011?
Quote:
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Vernon definitely gets a bad rap here, largely because of the expectations that came with his contract, but I think you're selling Golden short:
1. Most of his games missed are due to a single injury that cost him most of 2017 and the start of 2018. For someone that likes stats as much as you, you sure are twisting things to suit your case.
2. Golden had 110 pressures in his first 2 seasons, both under Bettcher as a 34 OLB. In 2016 alone, he had 53 pressures (12.5 sacks which is better than OV's career high) and 41 run stops which was good for 4th most among edge defenders.
If both stay healthy, it'll be interesting to see who has the better year.
Link - ( New Window )
Looking forward to see if Golden can capitalize.
Quote:
In comment 14338607 Dodge said:
Quote:
is healthy and plays 16 games, he is a total upgrade over Vernon.
I came here to talk about how this is the second move other than Zeitler that didn't totally make me hate my life as a Giants fan and then I read this and i'm right back there.
Vernon? You mean the guy that was 3rd in the league in pressures for the 2nd half of the year last year that the Browns decided they wanted to trade a pro bowl caliber player for and pay $15.5 million dollars this year. A guy with 2.5 sacks and 10 QB hits the last 2 years compared with Vernon's 13.5 and 33 QB hits?
Adding the caveat if he's healthy and plays 16 games he's an upgrade? A guy that has actually played less games than Vernon the last two years by 8. Vernon the guy that is constantly lambasted for being injury prone. Now Golden gets to play 16 games in this spectacular fantasy land that you live in? How many games does Vernon play in this world where Golden is the model of health and an upgrade?
Why does your fantasy stop at perfect health for Golden? Can't we just have Aaron Donald instead?
Vernon definitely gets a bad rap here, largely because of the expectations that came with his contract, but I think you're selling Golden short:
1. Most of his games missed are due to a single injury that cost him most of 2017 and the start of 2018. For someone that likes stats as much as you, you sure are twisting things to suit your case.
2. Golden had 110 pressures in his first 2 seasons, both under Bettcher as a 34 OLB. In 2016 alone, he had 53 pressures (12.5 sacks which is better than OV's career high) and 41 run stops which was good for 4th most among edge defenders.
If both stay healthy, it'll be interesting to see who has the better year. Link - ( New Window )
Understand the poster. ANYTHING DG does will come under ridicule. In fairness, he is not alone.
Gettleman / Maras are not following analytical frameworks that have proven to work IE sticking with an aging and declining QB, or picking an RB very high in the draft without having surrounding talent and especially a discounted formula.
Even if they were making all the right moves there is plenty of evidence that the orginization is not investing in analytical frameworks that have worked very well for other teams, some decades and are likely to become even more vital to have in the near future.
I dont think everything Gettleman does is wrong, I dont think anyone here does. I would say what is more common and strange is some suggesting everything he and the team does is right especially considering the product they have been putting on the field, and the very clear errors that Gettleman has already made.
Mara, IMO, dictated that Eli stays. I have no doubt DG signed up for trying it but, again its my opinion, would absolutely move on from him if he could after what he saw last season. You keep lobbing all of this analytical nonsense out there like DG's has full authority to implement whatever he wants - he doesn't.
So blame the owner is my point. DG has done a lot of good here. He's also done some bad (the 2018 FA's) but I truly don't think he's allowed to implement his full vision.
This general logic about using Bettcher using talent was applied to Martin, and he turned out to be a part-time, low-impact player.
Let's be real; the Giants, the market, and the player know this is a low-risk/high-reward move on a player coming off a serious injury and an unimpressive year.
Mara, IMO, dictated that Eli stays. I have no doubt DG signed up for trying it but, again its my opinion, would absolutely move on from him if he could after what he saw last season. You keep lobbing all of this analytical nonsense out there like DG's has full authority to implement whatever he wants - he doesn't.
So blame the owner is my point. DG has done a lot of good here. He's also done some bad (the 2018 FA's) but I truly don't think he's allowed to implement his full vision.
I agree with this bit on Gettleman and the owners. And I think Gettleman wants to be the fall guy because he feels thats part of his role. He said as much in his presser.
Fast forward to last year Im sitting at the Saints game just watching Shurmur completely bungle time-out usage by sitting on them and then overcompensating the next game using too many. Both really hurting the team with something I could build a solution for them myself in a few weeks. This is something we really enjoyed doing together up until last year. I dont know how many years we have left to do this together. Weve seen this team even with a new GM continue to make mistakes and not show a tremendous grasp of how to value things, manage a coherent strategy (Landon Collins is glaring here) and whats worse doesnt seem to show that they understand the type of employer you have to be to succceed in modern times with commitments to innovation, demonstrated open mindedness and a care for what your employees think of you not just how they behave.
I dont hate everything they they are doing but frankly even if they werent making these mistakes along the way they are still making some massive ones with this clinginess to traditional management attitudes and refusal or perhaps inability to attract and hire high quality engineering talent. Flame me all you want, act like Im just trying to be here to be a malcontent, sure if that makes you feel better bottom line is Im trying to use the knowledge of my strengths (AI, systems architecture, organizational psych) and get the fan base more concerned with these things that HAVE to change sooner or later and are just flatly not being addressed or addressed quickly enough.
The people Im arguing on the other side of? I cant understand their goals or purpose, I cant understand why they arent more empathetic towards me or people like me that are tired of watching this and are actually bringing a perspective to the table with technology that many people dont have access to.
Fast forward to last year Im sitting at the Saints game just watching Shurmur completely bungle time-out usage by sitting on them and then overcompensating the next game using too many. Both really hurting the team with something I could build a solution for them myself in a few weeks. This is something we really enjoyed doing together up until last year. I dont know how many years we have left to do this together. Weve seen this team even with a new GM continue to make mistakes and not show a tremendous grasp of how to value things, manage a coherent strategy (Landon Collins is glaring here) and whats worse doesnt seem to show that they understand the type of employer you have to be to succceed in modern times with commitments to innovation, demonstrated open mindedness and a care for what your employees think of you not just how they behave.
I dont hate everything they they are doing but frankly even if they werent making these mistakes along the way they are still making some massive ones with this clinginess to traditional management attitudes and refusal or perhaps inability to attract and hire high quality engineering talent. Flame me all you want, act like Im just trying to be here to be a malcontent, sure if that makes you feel better bottom line is Im trying to use the knowledge of my strengths (AI, systems architecture, organizational psych) and get the fan base more concerned with these things that HAVE to change sooner or later and are just flatly not being addressed or addressed quickly enough.
The people Im arguing on the other side of? I cant understand their goals or purpose, I cant understand why they arent more empathetic towards me or people like me that are tired of watching this and are actually bringing a perspective to the table with technology that many people dont have access to.
I totally understand your angst
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knows how to use the talent he's given. This is a guy he's worked with before who had a breakout season in his scheme. Great signing.
This general logic about using Bettcher using talent was applied to Martin, and he turned out to be a part-time, low-impact player.
Let's be real; the Giants, the market, and the player know this is a low-risk/high-reward move on a player coming off a serious injury and an unimpressive year.
Not wrong but ignoring the fact his agent specifically mentioned reuniting with Bettcher.
Those dastardly Maras are kneecapping that genius Dave Gettleman!
This is a 68 year old man who has all of, what, five years as a general manager, marked by no particular distinction, a guy who upon being canned by Carolina was there for anyone to hire. But, of course, no one was interested.....except the Giants, who almost pathologically refuse to hire anyone other than people who already worked for him.
Yet we are constantly told how we simply must have complete blind faith in everything this man does. Based on what, exactly?
The difference is pretty clear, unless you're looking at the situation with some sort of negative bias (which you do all the time)
Collins play didn't drop because he was hurt. His deficiencies were exposed over and over again on the field. Golden was an ascending player who simply got hurt. If he's fully healed, there's no reason to believe he won't be good again. And its perfectly fine to hope thats the case.
Can't really see any way to not like it. There's virtually zero risk and tangible benefit.
Collins missed a season due to an ACL tear? Collins did switch from a 43 D to a 34 D (reverse of Golden) but that shouldn't be as big a change for a SS as an OLB/edge rusher.
No one's pretending he's Reggie White, Greg. Lets not exaggerate.
More like we replaced Vernon with a comparable player while significantly upgrading the OL.
I don't think anyone here is pretending that...
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Markus Golden: 1 year deal worth up to $3.75M with $2.225M gtd, per source.