We lost Tiki in 2006 and won a title the next
The Steelers traded Santonio Holmes after 09 season and were in the super bowl the next year
The Eagles got rid of McCoy and Jackson in 2015 and I were in the super bowl in 2017.
Obviously, we are no where near going to a super bowl this year, but the more I think about it, the more I am willing to give this a chance. I can’t say I am pleased about trading OBJ, but the thought that we are doomed for a very long time because of it, might not be entirely true. The one thing I do like of Gettleman is the thought that championships are most easily won (I don’t think there is one template) on the line and that is where he seems to be going in the draft and in the rebuild. Not happy with this week, but not nearly as bummed as I was two days ago.
Like it or not this is an exciting time. They are completely transforming this team in front of us.
We all like to pretend that we are ultra knowledgeable about how to evaluate talent build a team but none of us are.
One thing we should all learn is that the game is played on the field in the fall, not on paper or in our minds in March.
The clean up is painful, but this will end up being a very good team before we know it.
Just enjoy the ride.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Yes, you can let a star player go, but show me what team has won without good players.
and then once you have good players, separating them from stars is splitting hairs.
this is not a good take.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Seriously. You can win with a stud QB in his prime. That’s the fucking point of all the negativity. There is a glaring hole at QB for now and the foreseeable future. Surrounding said 38 year old with lesser playmakers and no defense is not what championships are made of. Pretending that your contending makes you Isiaiah’s Knicks.
Yes, you can let a star player go, but show me what team has won without good players.
and then once you have good players, separating them from stars is splitting hairs.
this is not a good take.
I agree you need a combination. But lets face it, the Giants aren't done yet. We always make fun of the Redskins for being off season champs. 2011 Eagles anyone... let it play out.. I want to build a strong foundation.. Defense and Oline.
I am not saying they are going to the playoffs this year. I am an eternal optimist. I think we are heading in the right direction.
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of good players, good coaching and some luck/good fortune to win NFL championships.
Yes, you can let a star player go, but show me what team has won without good players.
and then once you have good players, separating them from stars is splitting hairs.
this is not a good take.
I agree you need a combination. But lets face it, the Giants aren't done yet. We always make fun of the Redskins for being off season champs. 2011 Eagles anyone... let it play out.. I want to build a strong foundation.. Defense and Oline.
I am not saying they are going to the playoffs this year. I am an eternal optimist. I think we are heading in the right direction.
I agree with you, I wasn't saying the Giants will or won't win, simply saying what another poster said "jettisoning" stars was really used without context of those teams.
You insinuated that those teams didn’t have stars, but they did.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
NYG is not bare on offense. Better OLine. Eli, Barkley, Engram, Sheppard
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Seriously. You can win with a stud QB in his prime. That’s the fucking point of all the negativity. There is a glaring hole at QB for now and the foreseeable future. Surrounding said 38 year old with lesser playmakers and no defense is not what championships are made of. Pretending that your contending makes you Isiaiah’s Knicks.
And I have no issue with Barkley - he was better than advertised. I just don't to be the Detroit Lions and Barry Sanders.
I am not undervaluing Hakeem Nicks and Ahmad Bradshaw, I just think this will work out better than people think.
Yes, you can let a star player go, but show me what team has won without good players.
and then once you have good players, separating them from stars is splitting hairs.
this is not a good take.
It’s not a take, it’s a fact. I never said we were close, but the point is to get close we are going to have to build the interior and now we got assets to do so.
Actually it would be nice to have most everybody on the roster step up their games...
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Who did the patriots have in 2018 besides Tom Brady? Edleman and a broken down Gronk
NYG is not bare on offense. Better OLine. Eli, Barkley, Engram, Sheppard
And Tate. Im sure we pick up another stud receiver at 2nd round too. Just need a stud pass rusher and depth at CB and LB
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Who did the patriots have in 2018 besides Tom Brady? Edleman and a broken down Gronk
NYG is not bare on offense. Better OLine. Eli, Barkley, Engram, Sheppard
Trey Flowers? McCourty? A pro bowl LT? Van Noy? Gilmore?
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in fact, I said the opposite. What I said was that you don’t need your superstars to win if you build a team. Plus, let’s be fair anyone who saw our last 8 games in 2006 would never in a million years think we were anywhere close to a title, especially since Tiki accounted for so much production.
You insinuated that those teams didn’t have stars, but they did.
No, I didn’t, but Eli certainly wasn’t a star at end of 2006, Strahan was in his 14th year. So, thinking we were remotely contenders going into 2007 is what is revisionist history. Do you remember the Christmas Eve game from 2006 against the Saints at home?? That was an embarrassment
What have the Giants shown, over the past 8 years, that leads you to believe they have a process anywhere near as good as the Pats?
The narrative that’s been written that the 2007 Giants were rag tag group of lunch pail carriers is incredibly annoying. That team had very good players on it. It’s what led them to being one of the better teams in 2008 until that night at Latin Quarter.
The narrative that’s been written that the 2007 Giants were rag tag group of lunch pail carriers is incredibly annoying. That team had very good players on it. It’s what led them to being one of the better teams in 2008 until that night at Latin Quarter.
Isn’t that the point? First, my point is that everybody thought we were done because we lost Tiki. Second, my point was that due to a good draft and players like Tuck and Eli stepping up we became a better team in 2007 than 2006 even without a 2000 yard production guy like Tiki. Third, we are not nearly as talented as we were going into 2007, but the point is that we are gaining assets so that the whole of this team can be better without OBJ than we were with him , which was not very good (31-47).
Oh and btw, we are not the Pats. No one is.In fact, we are about as far from the fucking Pats as it is possible to get. We still have two owners who are neck deep into personnel decisions, a retread GM whose talent appears to be getting rid of everyone and a head coach who, in his third stint as a HC, is still looking to sniff the magical 7 win mark. Enough with this Patriots shit.
We're not a SB team. We have not been close for years. We didn't trade away our most valuable asset, Saquon. He's the building block now. I'll be happy if I see us win 5-6 but with the sense that we're actually building a core OL and D to be competitive in the coming years. What we've been doing hasn't worked.
Even if we took a QB last year, behind that OL (and no SB so no running game) he'd have had no chance. Now, if the pieces we got come together at all, at least if we get a QB this or next year he might just have 2 seconds to throw and a run game to support him.
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of good players, good coaching and some luck/good fortune to win NFL championships.
Yes, you can let a star player go, but show me what team has won without good players.
and then once you have good players, separating them from stars is splitting hairs.
this is not a good take.
It’s not a take, it’s a fact. I never said we were close, but the point is to get close we are going to have to build the interior and now we got assets to do so.
It's not a fact, it's a platitude. While you say you can win while jettisoning stars, you fail to acknowledge you still need stars to win.
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Who did the patriots have in 2018 besides Tom Brady? Edleman and a broken down Gronk
NYG is not bare on offense. Better OLine. Eli, Barkley, Engram, Sheppard
Oh my god the delusions here are strong. This team won 5 games last season. They won 3 the year before that. They have made the playoffs ONCE in 7 seasons. The QB is 38 and has faded. And people are still like "if we get a RT we have more talent than the Patriots." I just cant.
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In comment 14338985 ajr2456 said:
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Seriously. You can win with a stud QB in his prime. That’s the fucking point of all the negativity. There is a glaring hole at QB for now and the foreseeable future. Surrounding said 38 year old with lesser playmakers and no defense is not what championships are made of. Pretending that your contending makes you Isiaiah’s Knicks.
John Elway was not in his prime his last two years. You all are negative because you are negative people. Draft has not even happened yet and you idiots write off the season
I'm not negative. I am a realist. This team has SUCKED 6 out of the past 7 years. You want some optimism? Let me know when they can beat the Eagles - against whom they have lost five in a row, nine of the last 10 and 18 of their last 22 games (including one playoff game). Right now the Giants have done nothing to warrant any belief that anyone in the building knows what they are doing.
We're not a SB team. We have not been close for years. We didn't trade away our most valuable asset, Saquon. He's the building block now. I'll be happy if I see us win 5-6 but with the sense that we're actually building a core OL and D to be competitive in the coming years. What we've been doing hasn't worked.
Even if we took a QB last year, behind that OL (and no SB so no running game) he'd have had no chance. Now, if the pieces we got come together at all, at least if we get a QB this or next year he might just have 2 seconds to throw and a run game to support him.
No one is disagreeing that they need to rebuild. But they are signing 30 year olds and trying to win now. It makes no sense. They should be trading everyone over 27.
The 2006 team was destroyed by Toomer's injury. It was Plax and freakin' Tim Carter and David Tyree out there catching balls.
Also, the pass rushers all had various injuries.
As others have said, the 2007 squad was very talented.
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In comment 14339003 Justlurking said:
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In comment 14338985 ajr2456 said:
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Seriously. You can win with a stud QB in his prime. That’s the fucking point of all the negativity. There is a glaring hole at QB for now and the foreseeable future. Surrounding said 38 year old with lesser playmakers and no defense is not what championships are made of. Pretending that your contending makes you Isiaiah’s Knicks.
John Elway was not in his prime his last two years. You all are negative because you are negative people. Draft has not even happened yet and you idiots write off the season
I'm not negative. I am a realist. This team has SUCKED 6 out of the past 7 years. You want some optimism? Let me know when they can beat the Eagles - against whom they have lost five in a row, nine of the last 10 and 18 of their last 22 games (including one playoff game). Right now the Giants have done nothing to warrant any belief that anyone in the building knows what they are doing.
What does this current regime have to do with the failures of Reese/Ross TC and MacAdoo? 1 season in the books...some people actually have the foresight not to write off a total rebuild at this juncture without being a reactionary pessimist.
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Those teams had stars.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
Who did the patriots have in 2018 besides Tom Brady? Edleman and a broken down Gronk
NYG is not bare on offense. Better OLine. Eli, Barkley, Engram, Sheppard
Absolutely none.. especially none on OL or DL.. or even a CB or a Safety.. Their young RB who flashed in the playoffs is also not a star.. .
And in reality, for all the talk about not investing resources in RBs due to how easy it is to find them after the first day of the draft, the same is just as true for wideouts. Take a look at the top 20 receivers in receiving yards last year, and a majority of them were drafted outside the first round.
- Tyreke Hill (5th), JuJu Smith-Schuster (2nd), Michael Thomas (2nd), Davante Adams (2nd), Adam Thielen (undrafted), Antonio Brown (6th), TY Hilton (3rd), Robert Woods (2nd), Keenan Allen (3rd), Kenny Golladay (3rd), Ty Boyd (2nd), Stefon Diggs (5th), Jarvis Landry (2nd)
Yeah a lot of us love Beckham, he is an exciting player, and he put up big numbers when he was healthy, but he is not irreplaceable. We have a ton of draft picks available, and judging by the list above there is a good chance that we can find a guy that can put up close to his production in round 2 or 3.
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in fact, I said the opposite. What I said was that you don’t need your superstars to win if you build a team. Plus, let’s be fair anyone who saw our last 8 games in 2006 would never in a million years think we were anywhere close to a title, especially since Tiki accounted for so much production.
The 2006 team was destroyed by Toomer's injury. It was Plax and freakin' Tim Carter and David Tyree out there catching balls.
Also, the pass rushers all had various injuries.
As others have said, the 2007 squad was very talented.
Was 06 when the whole defense was hurt or was that 05?
What actually happens with much greater frequency when you jettison stars is that you take sharp downturns until you establish new stars.
The Giants "can" draft an All Pro with the pick at #17 and Peppers "can" turn into an All Pro in Bettchers defense, but let's be real - it's much more likely they won't.
But sure, you "can".
I of course hope we do.
And in reality, for all the talk about not investing resources in RBs due to how easy it is to find them after the first day of the draft, the same is just as true for wideouts. Take a look at the top 20 receivers in receiving yards last year, and a majority of them were drafted outside the first round.
- Tyreke Hill (5th), JuJu Smith-Schuster (2nd), Michael Thomas (2nd), Davante Adams (2nd), Adam Thielen (undrafted), Antonio Brown (6th), TY Hilton (3rd), Robert Woods (2nd), Keenan Allen (3rd), Kenny Golladay (3rd), Ty Boyd (2nd), Stefon Diggs (5th), Jarvis Landry (2nd)
Yeah a lot of us love Beckham, he is an exciting player, and he put up big numbers when he was healthy, but he is not irreplaceable. We have a ton of draft picks available, and judging by the list above there is a good chance that we can find a guy that can put up close to his production in round 2 or 3.
First of all. The Patriots went 18-1 and lost the Super Bowl in the last 30 seconds after Moss scores the game winning touchdown. Let’s not create a narrative that Moss was a huge part of them being in a position to win a Super Bowl.
Second listing the Patriots WRs and not including Gronk is disingenuous.
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In comment 14339070 Essex said:
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in fact, I said the opposite. What I said was that you don’t need your superstars to win if you build a team. Plus, let’s be fair anyone who saw our last 8 games in 2006 would never in a million years think we were anywhere close to a title, especially since Tiki accounted for so much production.
The 2006 team was destroyed by Toomer's injury. It was Plax and freakin' Tim Carter and David Tyree out there catching balls.
Also, the pass rushers all had various injuries.
As others have said, the 2007 squad was very talented.
Was 06 when the whole defense was hurt or was that 05?
In 06 Tuck was gone for almost the whole year and there were nagging injuries for the rest of the Dline.
05 the Defense was healthy until the last couple of games, when the entire linebacking core plus a couple of CBs were out for the playoff game against the Panthers. I think we had 87-year old Terrell Buckley off the street starting at CB that game.
What does this current regime have to do with the failures of Reese/Ross TC and MacAdoo? 1 season in the books...some people actually have the foresight not to write off a total rebuild at this juncture without being a reactionary pessimist.
LOL - yes its all new blood in this regime.
I was always partial to the Corey Sawyer/Clifton Abraham duo.
The 2007 Giants had Plax, Stratham, Osi, Eli
The 2010 Steelers has Ben, Mike Wallace, Ward, Harrison, Timmons and Polamalu.
Besides Barkley and maybe Tate, who matches up to that level of talent?
A young Eli and a better OL.
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an elite receiver isn't necessary to win in this league. The Patriots have won their Super Bowls with guys like Edelman, Welker, Branch. The year they had Randy Moss they didn't win, as we very well know.
And in reality, for all the talk about not investing resources in RBs due to how easy it is to find them after the first day of the draft, the same is just as true for wideouts. Take a look at the top 20 receivers in receiving yards last year, and a majority of them were drafted outside the first round.
- Tyreke Hill (5th), JuJu Smith-Schuster (2nd), Michael Thomas (2nd), Davante Adams (2nd), Adam Thielen (undrafted), Antonio Brown (6th), TY Hilton (3rd), Robert Woods (2nd), Keenan Allen (3rd), Kenny Golladay (3rd), Ty Boyd (2nd), Stefon Diggs (5th), Jarvis Landry (2nd)
Yeah a lot of us love Beckham, he is an exciting player, and he put up big numbers when he was healthy, but he is not irreplaceable. We have a ton of draft picks available, and judging by the list above there is a good chance that we can find a guy that can put up close to his production in round 2 or 3.
First of all. The Patriots went 18-1 and lost the Super Bowl in the last 30 seconds after Moss scores the game winning touchdown. Let’s not create a narrative that Moss was a huge part of them being in a position to win a Super Bowl.
Second listing the Patriots WRs and not including Gronk is disingenuous.
Last I checked Gronk doesn’t play wide receiver. If we are going to include guys from other positions then the fact that we have Evan Engram and Saquon Barkley as pass catching threats just adds to the argument that replacing Odell’s production won’t be as difficult as some people are acting like it will be.
JFC this place has gone delusional.
JFC this place has gone delusional.
Losing Cooper Kupp didn't totally change the Rams offense either.
The narratives this place comes up, I tell you.
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and the erratic Josh Gordon too because "wide receivers don't count."
JFC this place has gone delusional.
Losing Cooper Kupp didn't totally change the Rams offense either.
The narratives this place comes up, I tell you.
Oh yes, the future HOFer Cooper Kupp. Clearly their offensive decline was all due to him and not the fact that Todd Gurley's knee wouldn't allow him to stay on the field.
JFC this place has gone delusional.
I mean they basically got Randy Moss for free, a 4th round pick for a future Hall of Famer was about as low risk as it gets, it's not like they went out of their way and allocated big time assets to fill a huge need.
How did that Josh Gordon trade workout? How many catches did he have in the playoffs and their Super Bowl win? I can't remember.
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and the erratic Josh Gordon too because "wide receivers don't count."
JFC this place has gone delusional.
I mean they basically got Randy Moss for free, a 4th round pick for a future Hall of Famer was about as low risk as it gets, it's not like they went out of their way and allocated big time assets to fill a huge need.
How did that Josh Gordon trade workout? How many catches did he have in the playoffs and their Super Bowl win? I can't remember.
Keep moving the goal posts
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In comment 14339536 HomerJones45 said:
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and the erratic Josh Gordon too because "wide receivers don't count."
JFC this place has gone delusional.
I mean they basically got Randy Moss for free, a 4th round pick for a future Hall of Famer was about as low risk as it gets, it's not like they went out of their way and allocated big time assets to fill a huge need.
How did that Josh Gordon trade workout? How many catches did he have in the playoffs and their Super Bowl win? I can't remember.
Keep moving the goal posts
Here’s how smart you are, my initial post had 2 main points:
1. You don’t need elite wide receivers to win in this league.
- Your counterpoint is to bring up Rob Gronkowski, a tight end, as proof that championship teams need an elite receiver.
2. #1 receivers can be found after the first round of the draft, and listed about a dozen guys from last year as proof.
- You proceed to later in the thread use Cooper Kupp to prove another one of your points. Cooper Kupp was drafted in the 3rd round.
Were you trying to disagree with my statements? You actually did a pretty good job of supporting them.
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In comment 14339706 Mike in NJ said:
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In comment 14339536 HomerJones45 said:
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and the erratic Josh Gordon too because "wide receivers don't count."
JFC this place has gone delusional.
I mean they basically got Randy Moss for free, a 4th round pick for a future Hall of Famer was about as low risk as it gets, it's not like they went out of their way and allocated big time assets to fill a huge need.
How did that Josh Gordon trade workout? How many catches did he have in the playoffs and their Super Bowl win? I can't remember.
Keep moving the goal posts
Here’s how smart you are, my initial post had 2 main points:
1. You don’t need elite wide receivers to win in this league.
- Your counterpoint is to bring up Rob Gronkowski, a tight end, as proof that championship teams need an elite receiver.
2. #1 receivers can be found after the first round of the draft, and listed about a dozen guys from last year as proof.
- You proceed to later in the thread use Cooper Kupp to prove another one of your points. Cooper Kupp was drafted in the 3rd round.
Were you trying to disagree with my statements? You actually did a pretty good job of supporting them.
This is how smart you are.
1. I never used Cooper Kupp as an example that you need a WR in the first round but as an example that you need top end pass catchers to be successful in today's NFL.
2. Gronk works as an example because he's more valuable as a pass catcher to the Patriots than he is a blocker. Who cares what position the player plays if he is your #1 receiving option and he is elite at it? The Patriots and Gronk revolutionized the tight end position.
3. What does what the Patriots gave up for Randy Moss have to do with anything? The point was made that Randy Moss didn't win a Super Bowl, despite the fact they he was 30 seconds away from it and that was largely because of him.
Randy Moss' stats with Patriots
2007: 98-1492-23 - 18-1 record, lost in the Super Bowl
2008: 69-1008-11 - 11-5, with Matt Cassell and missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker.
2009: 84-1264-13 - 10-6, lost in the first round.
Was Randy Moss not valuable to the Patriots? Did he not help them win?