"I hate this team!"

Maybe I was just younger and more optimistic, but there were was a likeable, solid core there in Strahan, Armstead, Seahorn, Sparks, Toomer, Ike, and Tiki (even though he didn't get going until the 00s). The whole obstacle of those teams was the QB.

There were also random guys who popped out of nowhere to have great seasons like Wooten, Way, Bratzke.

I have a feeling more people are going to start coming out of the wood work hinting at how this organization was being held hostage by a particular individual, his personality, and the fact that he had a lot of clout in the lockerroom with guys who wanted to be like him.

If jtgiants is to be believed, even more will surface.

it certainly can't get much worse than it has been the past few seasons. I'm hopeful things will turn around and in 2020 we will really have something clicking.

Gettleman took on a very, very large task here.

This was not going to get fixed in one shot - so, I was baffled by the posters who wanted him fired immediately after the first season.

There are steps required to get from point A to point B - now we are seeing how the pieces may start to fall into place.

It's starting to sound to me like they plan on addressing QB sooner than later. That's what I needed to hear. I like everything else going on right now for the most part.

Loved Beckham the player - not upset at all with the return and am fine with turning the page.

I feel kind of excited and optimistic for a much different looking Giants team going forward.

Barkley is going to be the centerpiece of the offense. The line should continue to improve and settle, young defensive talent should start funneling in via the draft/trades (Peppers)

All of this shit about "they have no plan!!!!"

I don't see that at all - it looks to me like they absolutely have a plan.

But that didn't stop swaths of posters for saying Gettleman was wrecking the franchise and acting like petulant children over every little thing...

This might not even work out! I get it... but can we stop going absolutely bat shit over every single thing that happens? In some instances, you have to thin out a roster spot before you can replenish it with the type of players and depth you want.

I'm willing to give this time to develop and am looking forward to what's coming next.

It's nice to see people softening their stances and allowing themselves to see the positive in things. There are some good things happening here. It's okay to acknowledge that. Perhaps people are actually starting to see some methodology here?

Feels like there's been a black cloud over the organization for a couple of years, hoping that's going to lift this year.

I started a thread just like this right after yours but deleted it once I saw this one. I was feeling the same way.

I said those exact words several times. Just a brutal team to root for.

That Gettleman's vision is a strong OL and running game that can eat the clock and have wr that are possession type players. Add to that a strong D line and Safety who can control the middle of the field.

It might be 1988 in Gettlemans mind, and he might build us a re-dux of a Giants late 1980s team, but...

The team we had with OBJ was a perennial 5 win team - something had to change

Offense
Eli
Engram
Shepard
Ellison
Wheeler - for now

Defense
Jenkins - somewhat stunned he's survived the purge
Wynn
Goodson
Moss

Specials
Rosas
DeOssie

Did I miss anyone?

basically, right?

it was going to be a three year process. Granted, there have been some hiccups along the way but it looks as though its starting to shake out now. And by year three (2020) this team will be back on the right side of the road. Tons of cap room. New QB.

Good insight. One thing i have learned in my years of watching the Giants and thinking who i wanted them to draft or sign, is I am just a fan who really doesn't know that much.

I have seen the Giants cut players and was unhappy about it only to see that player do nothing with the next team.

I just follow my team and always watch when I can.

It's all going to be gone and likely that is a good thing. I always appreciated what OBJ could do...but I always felt it was all about him. The old Giants were never better than the sum of the parts. Good teams are.

still only 12 players in total from BG.

I really liked Odell the player. Very exciting. I didn’t want to believe he didn’t want to be here, but the whole leaving the field before halftime stuff was telling me he was gonna be a problem child.

Gettlemen wants adults, professionals, players that hate to lose.

So far, the 4 new additions seems to be in line with that model.

We will see more of that and that is why I think Haskins, who is a high character kid will be a Giant. Also Christian Wilkins is a DG prototype.

Culture matters.

you are with us or against us.

In comment 14339439 giants#1 said:

Quote:

Offense Eli Engram Shepard Ellison Wheeler - for now Defense Jenkins - somewhat stunned he's survived the purge Wynn Goodson Moss Specials Rosas DeOssie Did I miss anyone?

Yeah, that the Jackrabbit is still here is astonishing. Maybe they're just biding their time. Have to believe Shep is a goner now.

Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.

Than drafting a running back at 2 overall with a roster this bad and a QB who hasn't been effective in 5 years. The day ownership settled on the comfortable choice for GM this all got more rotten.

Not DG.

Ownership was making that call as well as the one to get rid of him, which, thankfully they did.

In comment 14339441 bluepepper said:

Quote:

basically, right?

Without creating a new one (like one with QB hell)

which is okay with me because I am not sold on Haskins or Lock and certainly not Murray. But considering that he drafted Auletta and released Webb, I have no idea how he rates quarterbacks. I still think that several years from now, we will look back and say that DG should have drafted qb Josh Allen instead of Barkley. Naturally, as I Giants fan, I hope I'm wrong.

away from more Giants games the last couple of seasons than I ever did before in my life.

even I got tired of making excuses for him to my non Giants friends

Ever since the last year or two of Coughlin. We haven't had a direction or a sense of team since Gilbride left. Mainly because his offense defined us. Our defense hasn't has a feel to it since Tuck and Osi left.

In comment 14339460 Chris684 said:

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Not DG. Ownership was making that call as well as the one to get rid of him, which, thankfully they did.

Gettleman had to sign off too, and want it Shurmur that asked for it to happen?

Brutal mistake. As was drafting Barkley, frankly.

But this offseason has been much better. Hopefully it keeps up.

but always easy to root for. It helps that he had such likable players--Eli, Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Diehl, Ohara, Cruz, Nicks, on and on. Things definitely changed for me when Coughlin was canned, and haven't been the same since.

In comment 14339439 giants#1 said:

Quote:

Offense Eli Engram Shepard Ellison Wheeler - for now Defense Jenkins - somewhat stunned he's survived the purge Wynn Goodson Moss Specials Rosas DeOssie Did I miss anyone?

Missed Wayne Gallman

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.

From all indications, Gettleman wanted him gone. It was Tisch and Shurmur who threw Odell a lifeline. And due to the timing and circumstances, he had to sign him to that big deal, or else Odell doesn't even show. It was a point in time that the Giants wanted to do right by their new head coach and not hamstring him. It was a big old shitburger and they all held hands and took a bite and hoped it worked out. It didn't, so rather than wait any longer, they pulled the trigger. Basically, when you have a bad team, and you are recovering from years of bad decisions, they made a call and, to their credit, when they saw it wasn't working, ripped the bandaid off. The old Jerry Reese Giants would have held on to Odell and the shitshow would have continued and he'd have been traded for an Antonio Brown package.

Odell was a step behind his former self last season, the injuries have been becoming too frequent. He was never all in on this team. Most importantly, building around two offensive skills positions is not sensible team construction.

What is questionable was the timing. Moving on may be the plan now, but it wasn't the plan when they signed him to a massive deal, and Odell is the exact same guy today he was then. Like the decision to move on from Collins after passing on opportunity to get something in return, it's the fact of their wavering their decision making that concerns me.

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.

I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone.

.

In comment 14339448 Rjanyg said:

Quote:

I really liked Odell the player. Very exciting. I didn’t want to believe he didn’t want to be here, but the whole leaving the field before halftime stuff was telling me he was gonna be a problem child. Gettlemen wants adults, professionals, players that hate to lose. So far, the 4 new additions seems to be in line with that model. We will see more of that and that is why I think Haskins, who is a high character kid will be a Giant. Also Christian Wilkins is a DG prototype. Culture matters.

Another good post. Hope you're right. I'm willing to take the chance on Haskins.

In comment 14339482 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone.

Yes, the plan did change. Just like it changed with Collins. That is the concern.

In comment 14339479 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Odell was a step behind his former self last season, the injuries have been becoming too frequent. He was never all in on this team. Most importantly, building around two offensive skills positions is not sensible team construction. What is questionable was the timing. Moving on may be the plan now, but it wasn't the plan when they signed him to a massive deal, and Odell is the exact same guy today he was then. Like the decision to move on from Collins after passing on opportunity to get something in return, it's the fact of their wavering their decision making that concerns me.

I think they did intend on Beckham being part of the team going forward - but once they ran into more issues, they decided it wasn't going to work out. And the longer they waited to deal with this, the more leverage we'd likely lose - and the lesser return we'd wind up settling for.

It seems like they kind of felt like it just had to be done now before it got worse.

I'm disappointed in him if it's true he told the coach to go fuck himself, etc. Most of the optical shit doesn't bug me, but I don't want that going on here. No one is bigger than the team.

One largely understated thing we say last year was the way the team kept fighting through, even after the team had nothing to play for. As a sign of hope, I'll point to that as a very good sign.

For the past 5 years there has been finger pointing at EVERYONE except the overpaid mediocre QB

OBJ has done plenty of antics in his career with Giants but did he ever completely rebel against the HC and bench himself and refuse to play a game?
No the ONLY player to ever do that on the Giants is Eli Manning !!

there are two rules for players on Giants
Eli Manning rules
and Everyone else rules
if you don't think other players don't see this .. then you are delusional

Sorry but as long as Eli is still on the Roster the rot is still with Giants

since we Nicks came up lame against Tampa Bay in 2012. Everything that made the 2 supwrbowl runs magical just began to crumble. Lets hope trading Beckham was the bottom.

I love the New York Giants and as of today I have no reason to hate this team but I wasnt very proud of it from them moment OBJ went after Norman. That can change, thats the hope.

The team is on a different path, and that's good news.

However, everyone makes mistakes, and I believe Gettleman has made some. But they have not been team-crushing mistakes, like drafting Ereck Flowers. So I'm relieved about that. What do I mean by mistakes? Well, an easy one to identify is the Stewart contract. It was a mistake. But it didn't crush the team.

I'll comment on what I think is a current Gettleman mistake.

I think they are making a mistake in regards to Halapio. He's a JAG coming off a broken leg. It appears they like him and it seems he is penciled in as the starting C. But I don't think this is a team-crushing mistake. He's a big dude, a hard worker, not an attitude issue at all. So he's probably not going to be very good. But he doesn't have a crushing contract, he's not on a scholarship, and his being on the team does not prevent the team from drafting his future replacement.

So, I don't like what the Giants are doing at C (thus far). But the damage from this is nowhere near the level of damage the previous regime would cause with really poor personnel decisions.

The previous regime made team-crushing mistakes. Those days seem to be over. I'm happy about that.

This team will play hard. The talent isn't there yet (WR is still really bad, in my view). But they have some tough dudes now. And there won't be any dog peeing nonsense in the end zone, thank God. What an embarrassment!

Agreed ...but honestly, did they really think OBJ was going to change for the better after they handed him a massive contract? As I said, he's the exact same guy today he was when he signed the deal.

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.

Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.

That's the bottom line.

Poor drafting and McAshit as HC helped with the stink.

It will take time to try and freshen the air. Need to hit on a few drafts and FA signings. And of course, the biggest item is the next QB.

Again, it is a different world now than in the early 90s.
Ticket/Food/Drink prices are insane, traffic sucks, and folks have Red Zone with massive HD TVs, Fantasy football, etc. No reason to waste time at the stadium to watch losers.

Attendance is down almost everywhere, so it is not a Giants thing. I think people like reading too much into things.

that could communicate with the millennial player?

In comment 14339510 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.

He should have dealt him last offseason.

In comment 14339465 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

away from more Giants games the last couple of seasons than I ever did before in my life.

.

+1

This team has zero talent on it. I don't care about the character of the players talent matters. You can't get rid of all your talent because they lack "character" Maybe the Beckham era would have produced more if they had a better QB. Beckham was the best player this franchise has had since LT and no amount of character is going to change that. When he wins in Cleveland we're all going to see that it wasn't Beckham why this team was losing the last 5 years.

In comment 14339484 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

.

If what's happening with the team is positive, I'll be positive. If it's negative, I'll be negative.

In comment 14339508 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Agreed ...but honestly, did they really think OBJ was going to change for the better after they handed him a massive contract? As I said, he's the exact same guy today he was when he signed the deal.

I think they were fooled by his offseason - he kind of played them, honestly. I kind of bought into it, too - stupidly.

There's part of Odell that is just Odell and I think there was a certain bit of it that they were willing to deal with... the dancing, some of the sideline antics, the flamboyant persona, etc... a lot of WR's have done stuff like that. But, reading the tea leaves, it just sounds like the relationship between he and management AND the coach were all rapidly deteriorating and it also sounds like there's some truth to his being MIA over the last 4 games was more elective than not.

I want to be careful about kicking the guy out the door because I still think he's a great player - and I don't like just turning on a guy 180-style the second he puts a new uniform on.

But at the end of the day.. we were still losing a lot of games, and I think I'm just refreshed with the prospect of a new direction and a different vision.

I just want to see the Giants win football games again. I'm married to being a Giants fan - not a fan of a player. So, if this is where we're at.... so be it!

is that you have to draft well and get some players after the 1st round like David Diehl in the 5th and Ahmad Bradshaw in the 7th. We have 12 picks and they have to hit on at least 4. DG had the best draft we have had in years. Hopefully we can get it right and then add a piece or two in free agency in 2020 and get our QB then. I hope that is the plan and I think it can work. We have to be patient and let DG do his job.

In comment 14339508 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Agreed ...but honestly, did they really think OBJ was going to change for the better after they handed him a massive contract? As I said, he's the exact same guy today he was when he signed the deal.

Again, why do people keep bringing up the contract? Would you really have preferred they let him go and got nothing in return? So they signed him to a huge contract. It wasn’t really all that hard to move now was it? They have to eat some dead cap this season, sure, but they also got a 1st, 3rd and a starting safety out of the deal.

In comment 14339490 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 14339482 Brown Recluse said: Quote: In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone. Yes, the plan did change. Just like it changed with Collins. That is the concern.

No, its not the same thing.

In fact, Collins has said himself that he didn't feel like they were going to keep him last year. He just kept going about his business knowing that he probably wasn't going to be a part of the teams long term plans.

Why they didn't pull the trigger on a trade for him, who knows. Maybe ownership stepped in again and interfered.
I've also heard conflicting reports that they were never offered a third, and that it was a 4th.

much has changed in the tenor of posts and criticisms of the team over the years. I've thought part of that is due to the 24-hour news cycle, where we live in a time where so much information is out there that people have a hard time separating fact from rumor/speculation. Also, they struggle to allow time for things to happen - they want results now.

In comment 14339517 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14339510 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then. He should have dealt him last offseason.

For what? They wouldn’t have gotten shit for him last year. Coming off the injury and only one year left on his contract? That contract he signed is the only reason they were able to get what they did in return. At least the Browns know he’s under their control now

try being a Rangers, Knicks and Mets fan if you want to know misery. Also, cry me a river about the 90's and 2000's funk... the stench from the '68-'81 Giants was worse than anything imaginable.

The product on the field has been bad. Sloppy, boring, loosing football

In comment 14339550 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 14339517 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 14339510 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then. He should have dealt him last offseason. For what? They wouldn’t have gotten shit for him last year. Coming off the injury and only one year left on his contract? That contract he signed is the only reason they were able to get what they did in return. At least the Browns know he’s under their control now

It wouldn't have been much different from what they just got, and we wouldn't be dealing with $16M in dead money.

But yeah he should have been traded after the boat trip. That was the sweet spot.

... just how unlikable so many of the Giants players were. Eli Apple, JPP, Odell to some extent, Flowers ... lazy, privilege, play well when the stakes are low. It goes without saying that we had Josh Brown to deal with and the management did not step in there as quickly as they should have to have me think they were principled.

To contrast running a team in a principled way, let's talk about Kareem Hunt. People praise the Brown's for taking a shot with him. He has an 8-game suspension but they still get a hell of a player for nothing. For me? This disgusts me. Rather, I'd like to align myself with the Chiefs, who could also have kept Hunt, but made the principled move. You can't praise both the Chiefs and the Browns here, or you can but for different reasons.

As for the Giants, I don't want a bunch of whiners and sore losers. I'll take players that have been through things, mental illness, addiction, a tough background and things that go along with that, but privilege and abuse of privilege, that doesn't sit right with me.

In the past our winning teams had clear cut locker room leaders who knew what it took to be successful in the league. Parcells had many and Coughlin had Strahan, Armstead, Rolle, etc ...

I think Reese sensed this the year he drafted like 4 or 5 college team captains but they weren’t gifted enough on the field to make a difference.

One could argue that a big drawback on Eli is that he’s too easy ... with his position and salary, fiery would be better,

I’m happy to see OBJ go ... our most recent downspiral started with the Bieber boat trip and the debacle in Green Bay. Over the past 60 years I’ve ‘hated’ my heroes a lot but never more than when the Diva was peeing on the field or the trash with Norman. He embarrassed the team and the franchise many times with his immaturity. Good bye, good luck, good riddance.

Agree w all of it

the reason they were so miserable to watch is that, aside from OBJ and a few other players, the Giant front office was disastrous at their job. is there an NFL team that has done a worse job over the last 5 years of identifying and acquiring NFL talent? and this was only exacerbated by one of the worst organizational decisions Giants ownership has made in a long time - the hiring of Ben McAdoo. Do you imagine you would have liked any NFL team running that ridiculous McAdoo offense?

what's interesting to me is that the purge of players has not been matched by any real internal purge in the front office. yes Reese and Ross are deservedly gone. but, for example, the entire pro personnel office is intact. these are the people who gave you last year's free agent class. and they're back at again this year. i'm puzzled why they get such a pass on last year, as though those signings were just fluky misses. or has anyone else noticed how weird it is to hear the Giants justifying the Peppers acquisition by talking about how much the team liked him when he was drafted? it just reinforces that while Reese and Ross are gone, many of the architects of this team's disastrous drafting remains.

every GM in the league has "a plan." Idzik had a plan for the Jets. Griggson had a plan for the Colts. look how well those plans went. having a plan means nothing. it's about the ability of the organization to identify talent and put it on the field. and count me as skeptical that there's been nearly enough change in the front office to give me much confidence.

but I worry that perhaps the rot is ownership (Tisch, Maras including Chris) and the FO. Hopefully it is not the repeat of the 70's when Rozelle finally had to step in and 'foist' (thank goodness) Young on the Giants.

In comment 14339490 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 14339482 Brown Recluse said: Quote: In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone. Yes, the plan did change. Just like it changed with Collins. That is the concern.

Ummm, one MAJOR point to consider- The Giants didn't know they would be trading Beckham this offseason, at the trade deadline last season. At that time they probably felt Collins was going to be part of this team. BUT, this offseason and clearly at the Combine, the Giants and the Browns were talking trade and who would be involved. They must have known Peppers was going to be a part of this deal before they dropped any idea of tagging and or of keeping Collins... Nothing was done in a vacuum..

In comment 14339587 Jay in Toronto said:

Quote:

but I worry that perhaps the rot is ownership (Tisch, Maras including Chris) and the FO. Hopefully it is not the repeat of the 70's when Rozelle finally had to step in and 'foist' (thank goodness) Young on the Giants.

Thats what I'm afraid of as well. Always liked the Maras, but their track record of late has been abysmal

with those who believe the rot has been removed except for one giant piece...that piece being Eli.

Great guy - easy to root for - but he's got to go. He's the last piece that HAS to go.

The tide started to turn for me last year and it finished the day the traded OBJ. My immediate reaction was that there were reasons we had not heard about. It’s in the thread. I don’t hate Eli, I love him. I just think he has lost the thing that made him special. I thought it was he had played so long behind a terrible OL, they had robbed him of his “IT”. I think it may have been the rot.

He was on team that clearly loved and played for each other. They unceremoniously fired the man that treated him like a son. We heard it when he left. I think what the team transformed into broke his heart. OBJ the face of the franchise? Just no. The guy showed up to every fucking game and played hurt. Fuck OBJ. Hunt, OBJ and Mayfield with a first year coach lololoolol

I am glad they are doing this. I am GLAD they are giving Eli another shot. I am fucking hope he kills it. Fuck all the Giant haters, no really. FUCK YOU, you intolerant assholes. Sounds like a 180 for me? You are damn fucking right and I feel a shit ton better. Rather root for a classy organization then one that makes immature assholes their face. I AM PROUD OF THE NY GIANTS TODAY! I have not been since the fire TC over Reese.

I have a strong suspicion that they are going to be a lot better than anyone thinks. GO GIANTS!!!!!

In comment 14339510 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.

This is a widly intellectually dishonest, and incongruent statement.

The Giants had Beckham on his 5th year option going into the 2018 season, he was under contract and the Giants owned his rights.

They had 4 choices: cut him (clearly not an option), let him play out his 5th year, trade him, or extend him.

The Giants made a mistake, and then made up for it. They paid him 23M for 12 games.

They made good on a mistake, but they made a mistake.

short tenure thus far.

The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward.

Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.

"Stink" is the right word. There was a stink on this team.

In comment 14339600 jcn56 said:

Quote:

short tenure thus far. The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward. Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.

I think this will be the best Giants team in years. Not ready to compete, but they cut out a lot of cancer this offseason.

My big concern is still the quality of the coaching. I don't believe in Shurmur at all.

1) I have been in favor of dumping OBJ for a while as his antics on the field and around the game we re far more than what all the OBJ lovers would admit. They bordered on the mentally bizare. Unstable is a very apt tag to describe some of the things he did on the field. The cramps adn IV stuff to me was way way more telling than what was given credit for. This Millennial bullshit is a fucking cop out.

2) Up until this week I have been in the Eli should go group. Now, I think we need to give him one more shot. First, he has earned the right to finish out his career here. Second, the Giants for teh first time in along time seem to be building the offense around sound principles and not "star" players. This isn't about Eli only, or OBJ outside, it is a concept built around a solid running game (the Pats with a multi headed attack ran the ball and threw the ball to their backs a TON), multi faceted passing game (players can and should be interchangeable- see Pats) with a solid smart Oline.

I think we can see Eli be more like Kurt Warner ala his Cardinals stint after leaving the Giants. He is a guy who knows where to go with the ball, will be a mentor to somebody (tbd still) and will have a major weapon (who can have an effect on all areas of the offense) to lean on in Barkley.

In comment 14339479 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Odell was a step behind his former self last season, the injuries have been becoming too frequent. He was never all in on this team. Most importantly, building around two offensive skills positions is not sensible team construction. What is questionable was the timing. Moving on may be the plan now, but it wasn't the plan when they signed him to a massive deal, and Odell is the exact same guy today he was then. Like the decision to move on from Collins after passing on opportunity to get something in return, it's the fact of their wavering their decision making that concerns me.

Right. It’s the fact that they re-signed him, created a narrative he’s a cancer, devalued their asset, then sold after devaluation. They just gave up Collins without using the tools they had at their disposal to get assets for him. It’s poor planning and poor asset management.

I think the one thing the board will agree on is that there needs to be change. What and how the change is being effectuated is where the arguments are.

before this recent stretch of crap was 1980. Think about that; it’s been a third of a century since the Giants where this bad. So yeah, that’s why I think this feels worse than the late 90s early 2000s.

That coupled with the NFL being an inferior product in the past 10-15 years and I can see why fans have stopped giving a fuck.

good post, Eric.

Do you think though that losing breeds contempt?

After/during 2016 do you think the sentiment changed to more positive?

Maybe the letdown of 2017 washed away any of the good feelings and swung things to a worse place. High expectations = much higher disappointment when they're missed.

Just asking, I don't have the answer. But I think the majority of fans are very emotional and their emotions ebb and flow with wins and losses.

In comment 14339600 jcn56 said:

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short tenure thus far. The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward. Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.

I dont even know if they think they can win, I think they are just scared shitless of handling Manning's exit wrong.

Its leading to poor decisions

Is going to be the thing we lean on, than we have to believe that they also told him to stick with Eli. That means the rot is the ownership group.

In comment 14339625 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

good post, Eric. Do you think though that losing breeds contempt? After/during 2016 do you think the sentiment changed to more positive? Maybe the letdown of 2017 washed away any of the good feelings and swung things to a worse place. High expectations = much higher disappointment when they're missed. Just asking, I don't have the answer. But I think the majority of fans are very emotional and their emotions ebb and flow with wins and losses.

I'll preface my response by reminding folks that I thought the Giants never really considered anyone else but Gettleman. And because of that, their GM search was a farce and poorly conducted.

But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing.

I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

what they were or proclaim to be.
Having said that I think you give George Young no credit as the guy who smelled the rot and began turning the aircraft carrier around in 1980 by drafting Simms and then in ‘81 drafting the immortal LT. Young selected tough man Ray Perkins to help clean the ship but was short circuited when Perkins returned to Alabama and eventually seemingly dissappeared.

Young was left to choose Parcells who he was not convinced of after the horrid ?’83 season and the Monday night football game with St. louis cards and searched for new coach which caused an irreparable rifts with Parcells that eventually caused Parcells to leave giants and Young and Belicheck basically in the lurch.

Now here we are with DG and Maras still and Tisch. I’m sure Mara told DG to move OBJ and DG tried to get the best price. He is cleaning house and as I have posted many times before, building a team as all great football teams are with guys who are lunchpail, want to play football guys, and around a generational RB. Giants will run, score when they can, eat the clock, play action pass and not be left unable to maintain a lead in 4th qtr or close a game in 4th qtr by getting needed first downs, where almost all games are won or lost. DG is also rebuilding 21st century the to fit his and the 3/4 mold. St’s were surprisingly good last year which says something about their coaches and so many back up guys who play st’s

How this all works out will in part depend on Eli and his unknown successor but I think DG, his personnel and scouting departments, as well as his coaching staff have a plan and are executing it.

as we now have the most draft capital this year of the 32 teams.
Giants #1 in draft capital based on number of picks - ( New Window )

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

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are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

If they’re good (9-7 or better) I’ll take a public flogging on here happily.

In comment 14339535 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 14339508 UberAlias said: Quote: Agreed ...but honestly, did they really think OBJ was going to change for the better after they handed him a massive contract? As I said, he's the exact same guy today he was when he signed the deal. Again, why do people keep bringing up the contract? Would you really have preferred they let him go and got nothing in return? So they signed him to a huge contract. It wasn’t really all that hard to move now was it? They have to eat some dead cap this season, sure, but they also got a 1st, 3rd and a starting safety out of the deal.

Lol, is that what you think, that they signed him with the intent to trade him? They signed him because they wanted to keep him, thinking he would change and he didn't.

In comment 14339639 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 14339625 pjcas18 said: But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing. I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.

Eric - we've heard a lot about drafting for culture around here. Once the swoon started, while TC was still onboard, remember how the focus was drafting good character players, guys who were team captains?

If that was a focal point of their process, it failed. Either that, or character wasn't nearly as important as originally believed.

The thing to keep in mind - the same guys are evaluating the talent today and going forward that selected all those team captains.

I think this team has a problem, and it's rooted directly at the top. I've said this before, on his own I wouldn't mind Gettleman as much - I think he's older than I'd like, and his approach to analytics really bothers me. But it's not until he's coupled with this organization that I really thought they were destined for failure. And the OBJ situation is just more evidence of that - FO and ownership not being on the same page.

Yup, that "team captains" thing is a long, distant memory, isn't it?

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?

I saw more emotion from the 2017 Giants on Twitter than I did on the playing field.

was at a personal/fan level not the trade or the direction Giants were going.. As a big fan of his and more so because he was my sons favorite player.. At that point I was hoping for a full on rebuild.. but then they pay the bonus to Eli and bring in Tate.. Tate and keeping Eli are just bad moves and as a fan you bitch about the bad moves but it never changes your fanhood..

but when your team trades guys like Patrick Ewing or OBJ.. it has a impact at least temporary.. I would've felt the same way about Eli but that has past.. It sucked this bad when he was benched for Geno..

for. That was one of the few positives we can take away from last year.

Good post @10:33.

In comment 14339700 Eric from BBI said:

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I saw more emotion from the 2017 Giants on Twitter than I did on the playing field.

That wasn't just 2017.. it goes back to the must win game against Baltimore in 2012.. OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Apple weren't there for that one.. It has continued from then till now.. With the exception of 2016.. where I distinctly remember our horrible TE on a 3rd down.. went out of bounds and not even attempt to get a first down.. Who saved us on the very next play? it was a 4th down against a good defense.. OBJ.. I think its stupid to think he didn't love winning or accepted losing.. No one here knows him enough to make that call..

And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility.

Organizations get stale. The clubby atmosphere breeds groupthink. Yes, Tom Coughlin, Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were fired....but what happened when Reese was fired? They went the sadly predictable route of bringing in Accorsi as a supposed consultant to hire his former deputy, a guy eligible for Social Security who thinks he's resurrecting the '73 Dolphins blueprint. The scouting department remains mostly intact. They're rearranging the deck chairs, that's all.

In comment 14339718 BH28 said:

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And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility.

Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.

In comment 14339697 Eric from BBI said:

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Yup, that "team captains" thing is a long, distant memory, isn't it? I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?

One guy got upset. But he is no longer in the team.

In comment 14339722 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14339697 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Yup, that "team captains" thing is a long, distant memory, isn't it? I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years? One guy got upset. But he is no longer in the team.

At losing or not getting the ball?

what Eric means by "rot" and by "plan". I will use the Refrigerator analogy. When you open the fridge and something smells bad, you have to take everything out, dump almost all of it, and disinfect the whole thing. Essentially starting from scratch. THAT'S the plan. DG is getting rid of Everything from before. He is working to establish a NEW culture, a way to function, with NEW players. Beckham, Collins maybe part of the problem maybe not. Even Eli will be gone after this year. He is almost treating the team like an expansion team, starting from scratch. There's only a few guys left who may be the exceptions (Gallman, Tomlinson,) who may remain because of attitude and work ethic. For this team its the RIGHT plan.

since 2012. Not that we had a QB merry go round but the offensive line, free agents, draft picks, drama, a total failure.

The fans in general have over-rated the talent and potential of this team. We have often seen posts that include "with all of this talent..."

The reality is outside of OBJ and a decent QB, we really were not rich in talent. We had starters at many positions that would either be a backup on another team or not in the league.

We are finally blowing this thing up. We had a piece of shit car with really nice rims (Odell). We have nothing to lose...we are already losers.

You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water?

It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.

In comment 14339721 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14339718 BH28 said: Quote: And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility. Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.

Didn't he fight Harvin before the super bowl?

Mara is absolute ROT.
He hired Getteleman after the Reese ROT, and now It's Gettelman Rot.
I was for a total house cleaning, and pulling up of any roots of former Giants connections so there could be a fresh start, but of course that was too much to hope for.
Gettelman is the perfect YES man for Mara. He wouldnt have any kind of high level personnel job anywhere in the NFL if not for Mara. He got rid of Beckham, (after giving him a big time contract?) because Mara didnt like him, and he'd always be a problem? Why pay him and then decide you dont want him? And trade him away at a discount? What was the urgency there? Was he going to hold out a year after getting a mega deal?
Schurmur is ROT. They hired an OC with no people skills, and once the FA defense Reese bought him crapped out the following year, he showed his absolute incompetence. Now we have another OC, seems better at dealing with players than Mac (which is not saying much), and he is on course for more losing seasons and being fired within the next 2-3 years tops.
This team made a bad GM decision, and a bad HC decision, and they will be a losing team until they figure out that they really need to clean house. This isnt a Parcells house cleaning, as the 3 main sources of ROT are still in the house causing the stench. One is not going anywhere, but until he learns that leaning on old ties, and old relationships, are not always the way to make the best decisions as to who runs this football team. And that's another thing Mara needs to do, take that long skinny honker out of personnel decisions and leave them to people you trust to make those decisions. Confusing, I know: Dont rely on old relationships just because they are familiar, hire against that natural instinct, and then step back and let that person make the important decisions related to personnel. I am asking too much, I know, but I cant help but see the ROT of this team starting from the top, and his 2 worst recent decisions have been Gettelman and Shurmur.

In comment 14339721 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14339718 BH28 said: Quote: And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility. Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.

You don't think it was awkard to be in the huddle with a QB whose wife you fucked? or at worst were rumored to fuck and Wilson nor the team ever came to his defense and never wanted him back?

In comment 14339733 Eric from BBI said:

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You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water? It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.

I agree, it will be interesting to see how he performs and acts in Cleveland

Should be very telling

and having a roster full of character guys is all well and good. But a losing team full of good guys is really no different than a losing team full of me-first guys. If the front office is behind the times when it comes to roster construction, positional value, etc., none of it's going to matter.

We're trying to compete with big cap hits coming from dead money, an average to below average QB, and the RB position. It's going to be very difficult to build a a competitive roster given those handicaps.

I now own my own business but for 10 years I was the administrator for a 3 physician 3.5 million dollar practice. I was in complete control of the staff except for one person. The owner’s scribe and manager of the technicians. She was the most educated, productive and talented person the staff. She was also a raging asshole. The morale in the office was terrible. She was above the law, so to speak.

One thing began to become obvious. Whenever she was out or on vacation the office ran better. Everyone raised their game. From the front office to the rest of technicians. Everyone worked for each other, HARD. Addition by subtraction is a real thing. When most of the production comes from an asshole, they get entitled and act however they want and it reduces the performance of others.

I love the plan. Get the assholes out and let me watch a team again, a group of guys that love and play hard for each other. Anyone who that tells the coach to fuck off HAS GOT TO GO. Can’t have it, you will NEVER have sustained success with assholes like that. It is a house built on sand. I am excited for 2019. DG was right about Barkley, he has it all combined with character in spades.

In comment 14339733 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water? It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.

I think Freddie Kitchens is the biggest thing that gives me pause there - this guy has no HC experience. I'd think that's the last thing you'd want in place to manage all of these big personalities they're bringing in there... the guy was literally not even a coordinator until last year. Up until then, he was just a positional coach.

The Browns are either going to be really good, or it's going to be an absolute disaster.

One thing is for sure.... they better not start 0-2...

OBJ sure seemed passionate about winning to me. The last 8 games of last year were meaningless, not to mention the last 4.

The rot DG smells is an aging, immobile QB (who I love, and always will), and the coaching for about the last 5 years.

Yet, after a less than inspiring season last year, both are still here.

For about the 10 millionth time, it's a QB and Coach driven league. Until they FINALLY address both of those properly, we can have the best RB, OL, etc in the league, it won't translate to winning Super Bowls. Why do you think Dallas hasn't sniffed one in 25 years, despite recently having a great OL, RB, and a pretty decent Defense?

Reese was a poor GM and was kept on far too long. Teams would get wind of players we liked and would trade up to get in front of us, and we end up with trash like Eli Apple..

Reese had one good draft, the rest were sub par and you can see that because the lack of depth and talent on the team.

Poor drafts lead to over paying in F/A and that puts you in CAP HELL.

The Eli of today is not the Eli of 2011. But I will argue that Reese/ Ross WASTED many years of prime Eli time by poor drafts and failure to rebuild the OL. Reese was so arrogant, because he hit on JPP, he thought he could outsmart the league and keep drafting freak athletes, instead of football players...

He was left in place far too long by ownership.
Just because your last name is Mara, doesn't mean you are a football genuis. Mara needed to get outside of this comfort zone and hire a real front office. Remember, we were in this position because, in the 1970's with Mara Cronies running things, the team got into being the joke of the NFL. and a stalemate ensued, with out Roselle, we dont have Young, Parcells or 2 super Bowls.

I dont know if DG is good or bad, at this point, but he's who we have. I hope he can get things right

In comment 14339639 Eric from BBI said:

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I'll preface my response by reminding folks that I thought the Giants never really considered anyone else but Gettleman. And because of that, their GM search was a farce and poorly conducted. But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing. I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.

Eric - what about Eli? Do you think he's more afraid of losing than he wants to win?

Why build a strategy around a specific mindset but establish at the core a leader who doesn't share that mindset? Could a lack of fear of losing from Eli be a part why the Giants have lost the "fear of losing"?

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

Quote:

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

Oh come on brother -- that's not true. There is plenty of reason to be both 1) optimistic in the long-term and 2) pessimistic about this season.

I'm thrilled Gettleman is moving bad contracts, collecting cap and draft picks, and getting younger. I wanted him to do that last year.

I don't think this is a playoff team right now. I think it's actually a pretty bad team.

I remember a good deal of optimism coming out of UFA last year, after adding Solder, Omameh, Martin, and trading for Ogletree. It was an average class of acquisitions followed by a good draft.

All that and the following churn made it a 2 win better team.

I think this is a 6-10 team, unless they draft and play a QB, then I'd say 4-12.

And I'll be available to stand by that stance all season, including if they are in the playoffs where I will be very happy to be wrong.

But this draft is pivotal for better or worse.

Consistently breeds grumpiness. people will not be that much happier if we go 5-11 again, only without the antics/drama and with an improved culture. While stepping back in the big picture fans are lucky to have 4 super bowl wins, being a hardcore fan is an addiction and you crave the highs of winning.

In comment 14339591 Thegratefulhead said:

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The tide started to turn for me last year and it finished the day the traded OBJ. My immediate reaction was that there were reasons we had not heard about. It’s in the thread. I don’t hate Eli, I love him. I just think he has lost the thing that made him special. I thought it was he had played so long behind a terrible OL, they had robbed him of his “IT”. I think it may have been the rot. He was on team that clearly loved and played for each other. They unceremoniously fired the man that treated him like a son. We heard it when he left. I think what the team transformed into broke his heart. OBJ the face of the franchise? Just no. The guy showed up to every fucking game and played hurt. Fuck OBJ. Hunt, OBJ and Mayfield with a first year coach lololoolol I am glad they are doing this. I am GLAD they are giving Eli another shot. I am fucking hope he kills it. Fuck all the Giant haters, no really. FUCK YOU, you intolerant assholes. Sounds like a 180 for me? You are damn fucking right and I feel a shit ton better. Rather root for a classy organization then one that makes immature assholes their face. I AM PROUD OF THE NY GIANTS TODAY! I have not been since the fire TC over Reese. I have a strong suspicion that they are going to be a lot better than anyone thinks. GO GIANTS!!!!!

Thumbs up!

You know who sure didn't look like they were scared to lose? The 2009 Giants who got the living shit beaten out of them by a mediocre Panthers team to get knocked out off playoff contention. In the very last game in Giants Stadium, no less. Just one of a boatload of embarassing defeats that marked the second half of Coughlin's tenure.

In comment 14339720 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Organizations get stale. The clubby atmosphere breeds groupthink. Yes, Tom Coughlin, Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were fired....but what happened when Reese was fired? They went the sadly predictable route of bringing in Accorsi as a supposed consultant to hire his former deputy, a guy eligible for Social Security who thinks he's resurrecting the '73 Dolphins blueprint. The scouting department remains mostly intact. They're rearranging the deck chairs, that's all.

This right here.

If the problem with this team is the "stink of losing" then you're not getting rid of the stink by just ditching players. The stink goes all the way up the chain right into the owners' box.

What I see here from the actions over the last few days is waste. Waste of time. Waste of money. Waste of player talent. And a lot of people making excuses for poor performance.

If we're blowing up the team to clean out the stink, we're doing it at least a year late.

In comment 14339744 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14339733 Eric from BBI said: Quote: You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water? It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys. I agree, it will be interesting to see how he performs and acts in Cleveland Should be very telling

I expect in there years he won't be in Cleveland anymore.

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

Dan in the Springs... I personally think Eli isn't the same hungry player he was back in 2011.

Negative Nancy when Beckham was traded. Just felt like a kick to the guy for me, personally.

I've been onboard (for the most part) with Dave being brought in. Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster. I've been onboard (mostly) for Eli being the QB... That's starting to wane but I'll wait and see.

Things are very fluid right now. The QB situation, the defense, ect ect...

I may "hate" this team sometimes but I love this team. As I suspect we all go.

Good post Eric.

In comment 14339779 Tim in Eternal Blue said:

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Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster.

You know what he inherited in Carolina? The nucleus of that SB roster he supposedly "constructed".

In comment 14339720 Greg from LI said:

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Organizations get stale. The clubby atmosphere breeds groupthink. Yes, Tom Coughlin, Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were fired....but what happened when Reese was fired? They went the sadly predictable route of bringing in Accorsi as a supposed consultant to hire his former deputy, a guy eligible for Social Security who thinks he's resurrecting the '73 Dolphins blueprint. The scouting department remains mostly intact. They're rearranging the deck chairs, that's all.

Amen.

It continues to amaze me how people just gloss over that joke of a process.

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

Yes and I responded to someone last night who said Parcells allowed LT to get away with various things. Parcells NEVER would allow a player not to give 100% even if injured. IF he thought you were using an injury as an excuse to sit out... you would not be on the team. Would not matter who you were.

Also, for those who do not think that the locker room and team unity is important. We had the best cornerback in the game (or close to it) in Mark Haynes. The moment he turned into a locker room lawyer was when he was traded to Denver. We traded him while he was at his peak.

I don't think everyone is glossing over it.

It is what it is. It's like being a Redskins fan and knowing Snyder is not going anywhere.

In comment 14339787 bw in dc said:

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It continues to amaze me how people just gloss over that joke of a process.

BTW, I'm not sure you share these sentiments, but I think that process was so rigged that it just added to the rot spread.

And they didn't want to pay him. Had nothing to do with being a "locker room lawyer".

had turned out to be merely above-average starting NFL linemen, I'm guessing the past five years would have felt a lot different.

then that has me hopeful that the Giants FO is open to change. I was worried that they would target Daniel Jones or Drew Lock because they fit their old MO. I don't believe that Jones is worth a 1st or 2nd round pick. Lock has a lot of talent but the concerns about him between the ears worry me. If they took him in the late 1st I could get on board but I would rather take a chance on Tyree Jackson in the 3rd or 4th round.

In comment 14339818 CT Charlie said:

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had turned out to be merely above-average starting NFL linemen, I'm guessing the past five years would have felt a lot different.

You basically just said if the Giants had different players, they would be a different team. (And note the high-level of the draft picks you just listed).

, and teams ran rings around us

who always hopes for the best. I was pissed they could get Flowers or even Pugh to be an above average LT. But always thought there was a chance. I knew it was time for a change when they fired coughlin, but didn't know if firing HIM and Him alone was the right move at the time (Now I KNOW it wasn't). I had an eerily bad feeling when the next coach showed up in a sports jacket 2 sizes too big, but thought ok their trying for some continuity. I was meh about Gettleman, liking what he did in Carolina an previously with the Giants but skeptical that they 'stayed in the organization' for the 'new hire'. I was and still am meh about Shurmur. I hate his press conferences, his time management skills and his sometimes clueless offensive play calling. I like that the players seem to want to play for him, that his message has stayed consistent (at least from an outsiders view point) and he seems even keeled. I like Gettlemans go for it attitude, not afraid to make changes mid season, preseason, big moves little moves....time will tell how they DG and PS turn out. I still don't hate the team, but that feeling of something not right hasn't left and won't until they play a significant part of the season fairly successfully and with little or no controversy (Eli Sucking, Sterling tantrums, PS taking a shite time out, etc.)...Go Giants!

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

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Dan in the Springs... I personally think Eli isn't the same hungry player he was back in 2011.

I agree, and I think a part of the problem is that the team cannot build a culture that "hates to lose" while acting out of sentimentality, reacting to fan/media outrage, and designing a season-strategy playing homage to a single, satisfied player.

I agree completely until this idea of Gettleman "smelling the rot" and the entirety of what that entails.

I think this is ironic coming from the Giants but I think some of the thesis here in what you are saying that this rot is housed within the players and players can have rot or don't when the Giants have always preached the idea that the way they act at the top means their players will perform will perform better on the field. If they want to have this shouldn't that also absolutely have to be responsible for the converse of this?

The player blame while completely correct there is also evidence to believe is dangerously narrow which is why I don't think it's wrong to bring up largely the same scouts and the very little evidence of a buy into analytical frameworks that are being increasingly used around the league.

If there is one thing about rot and removing it effectively it is that you do have to get rid of ALL of it. What this rot very well might be is a slavish attitude towards the old ways. Ways that make them less competitive like not signing players that are past there prime. In the article on analytics about the Eagles in ESPN recently they talked about their sports science unit and knowing someone's acceleration and force is one thing i'm sure the Giants know that. It's quite another to compare these numbers vs. earlier in their career via film or even college numbers and build some kind of advanced projection of value and injury probability and win delta predictions based on the sum of these assets.

Rot and poor performance are intertwined. When you have a coach that doesn't use timeouts properly in a game and it's obvious enough that even many of the players might know and fans are booing in the stands that's a problem. When you have an owner fighting with a player via the media and in basically a 1+ year trade rumor mill that's rot, that's owner rot. When that same owner who clearly has to sign off on a benching of his 2 time SB winning QB and does so takes too much heat and completely throws his coach under the bus that's rot. Saying someone "handled it the wrong way" is straight out of the poor leader not taking responsibility handbook. You want it handled the right way? You are so personal fond of this QB, fine, do it yourself. If you delegate that delegation is on you and only you.

Finally if you look at organizations generally that develop rot in and out of sports it generally is top down not bottom up. If it's bottom up it's very easy to excise if you will. Can we as fans demand new owners? No not really.

But I don't see a really rational argument that we don't at least demand in larger force that this team starts to innovate instead of scape goating certain people or fire all the factory workers because the factory continues to not produce.

We are all in this boat together but I don't know how people wouldn't feel like we are letting this team off too easily by letting ourselves be sold on this idea that it is a player issue and removing the players fixes the rot.

"A fish rots from the head down"

the premise of your rebuttal, but we are speculating on the "injury". Regardless, OBJ seems to be one of the more competitive players in the league to me.

Shockey was competitive too, but that can work against the team. You were lamenting the lack of players who hate to loose. I personally think OBJ hates losing. A guy like Vernon, maybe not...

the team has been run and the refusal to fully lean into a rebuild. And of course, it's 99% about Eli. The discussion around when they should move or should have moved on is by leaps and bounds the most polarizing issue among fans that I've experienced in my life as a NYG fan (I'm 36).

I have no intention to re-ignite that discussion here, because this thread (in spite of its title) seems to have bred some unity in a positive outlook, and it's just not the spot for it.

We're at the point where whichever side of the discussion one has been on, we can all agree that the end is visible, so I think we'll increasingly see things being less polarized among the fans. That whole debate has lead to a lot of interesting discussions, but also a lot of discord, to put it lightly.

I'm highly encouraged by the fact that the books are wide open for 2020 and beyond. Truly an open slate. It's easier to get excited right now than it was 12 or 24 months ago. The near future is more of an unmarred ball of clay than it has been in recent years.

So I'm a weird mix of still pissed off because I don't love the 2019 plan, yet very optimistic because there's a very unencumbered future and a lot of draft capital.

Disagree, someone has to play CB. Jackrabbit is our only proven starter.

I'm not sure Shepard is a goner, especially with OBJ's departure. It opens up more opportunity for him.

This is a big year for him.

In comment 14339451 bluepepper said:

Quote:

In comment 14339439 giants#1 said: Quote: Offense Eli Engram Shepard Ellison Wheeler - for now Defense Jenkins - somewhat stunned he's survived the purge Wynn Goodson Moss Specials Rosas DeOssie Did I miss anyone? Yeah, that the Jackrabbit is still here is astonishing. Maybe they're just biding their time. Have to believe Shep is a goner now.

I think DG may just be getting a good whiff of himself......

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

Quote:

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

What Coughlin meant about injuries being a cancer is that he didn't give a shit about players being injured, he just wanted them to play. There are plenty of stories out a Carolina about TC abusing players.

OBJ has played while injured or not fully recovered. It's ridiculous to gig for not playing in meaningless games when he was clearly on 100%.

But his is all on Mara and Tisch. This started w the drip drip changes. Fired Gilbride. Then Fewell. Then TC only to hire McAdoo. 5-6 years of idiots in charge. Yeah. People should hate this team. Not the individuals but the product which is thebteam. All while keeping Reese and Ross who were not only criminally inept. They were smug and arrogant.

NONE of that disfunction occurs without Mara and Tisch being involved. And if they had any honor or courage they would apologize and take the blame. Want people to trust this organization. Be men. Those two may not be bad people per se. Just that they have SUCKED at being owners of a football team. I have very little respect for them in that regard

In comment 14339784 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 14339779 Tim in Eternal Blue said: Quote: Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster. You know what he inherited in Carolina? The nucleus of that SB roster he supposedly "constructed".

And he was then fired just before training camp because HE'S AN ASSHOLE.

They will draft a C higher than we think this year.

I think they know...they signed Pulley to give them options (he sucks though).

C needs to be addressed.

In comment 14339504 ij_reilly said:

Quote:

The team is on a different path, and that's good news. However, everyone makes mistakes, and I believe Gettleman has made some. But they have not been team-crushing mistakes, like drafting Ereck Flowers. So I'm relieved about that. What do I mean by mistakes? Well, an easy one to identify is the Stewart contract. It was a mistake. But it didn't crush the team. I'll comment on what I think is a current Gettleman mistake. I think they are making a mistake in regards to Halapio. He's a JAG coming off a broken leg. It appears they like him and it seems he is penciled in as the starting C. But I don't think this is a team-crushing mistake. He's a big dude, a hard worker, not an attitude issue at all. So he's probably not going to be very good. But he doesn't have a crushing contract, he's not on a scholarship, and his being on the team does not prevent the team from drafting his future replacement. So, I don't like what the Giants are doing at C (thus far). But the damage from this is nowhere near the level of damage the previous regime would cause with really poor personnel decisions. The previous regime made team-crushing mistakes. Those days seem to be over. I'm happy about that. This team will play hard. The talent isn't there yet (WR is still really bad, in my view). But they have some tough dudes now. And there won't be any dog peeing nonsense in the end zone, thank God. What an embarrassment!

In comment 14339793 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I don't think everyone is glossing over it. It is what it is. It's like being a Redskins fan and knowing Snyder is not going anywhere.

We agree! The Giants can’t adapt because all we do is pick from the same group of candidates. Ran a fake GM search last time and will do the same next time. Eventually this team has to make a philosophical change, but it’s evidently not now.

I can’t believe we are sitting here a year later and actually debating whether we need to run it back with Eli. It’s nonsense. It’s not good enough that we figured out the answer last year. No, we need yet another year of losing. Awesome.

It’s just a bit disappointing that the one big tradable asset they had didn’t seem to fetch enough in return in order to really supercharge the rebuild plan. Maybe expectations were too high to begin with, but it’s not like this was a draft night trade we are a month and a half out. Perhaps a better deal could have been struck. Perhaps not. Moving on

How did that work out in the end? I say let DG do his job. Time will tell.

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

lol

I don't mind people 'smelling the rot' and raging, but a few people here made it a daily rant, and frankly it has reached a point where opening some threads I knew the same cadre of complainers would be showing up. We have a right to bitch if we see the things we've seen over the last few years. I'm just sick of seeing it in every thread, day in and day out.

I'm hoping that by the time the draft is over and OT
A's start, things will have quieted down, and we'll be able to get a better feeling about what the future holds.

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

Did I say they were going to make the playoffs? Or did my post going over you and Les's head?

Eli and OBJ should be a package deal. Eli has been the most important player on a team that stinks. Shouldn’t his leadership be questioned along with his declining skills? No I’m not equating Eli and OBJ as players and people. But it is blind loyalty and bias to not see Eli as part of the problem.

Oh, oh, bad for business.

But great posts, I can tell you as a fan since 56, I have never hated a Giants team, but this most recent version has been hard to like.

I think that s why I was psyched by Beckham trade. Regardless of what part he had in the make up of this team, it signaled a purge that was long over due.

In comment 14339470 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14339460 Chris684 said: Quote: Not DG. Ownership was making that call as well as the one to get rid of him, which, thankfully they did. Gettleman had to sign off too, and want it Shurmur that asked for it to happen? Brutal mistake. As was drafting Barkley, frankly. But this offseason has been much better. Hopefully it keeps up.

With Beckham, the argument could be made that his talent outweighed his on-field actions and immaturity. I loved what he did as a player. I hated the 'diva' part of him. Whether trading him now was a mistake or not, I'll let history be the judge.

How about all the people that predicted disaster? Were they right?
Absolutely
Were they called negative? Yes
Were they called bad fans? Yes
Where is everyone that predicted 12-4
11/5
Playoffs?
Flowers success at RT?
Wheeler will be good?
Eli still has it?
Where are you ? But you call out the people that were right?

We are in the company of Arizona Miami Tampa
As the worst teams in the nfl
The worst teams for nearly a decade
We can’t beat a good team
With their starting QB
We can’t get our defense off the field
We have one great player at the most vulnerable position in
Football
Where are the people that praised Reese? Where are you?
Eli should retire when he wants? Tom Brady should and nobody else.

This team and franchise is not among the nfl elite anymore
It is ROTTEN
Its being torn down finally
Blame Ross blame Reese blame Mara blame all of them
We kept Reese when he should have been fired and tc moved upstairs
We deserve this because of poor leadership
Own it
Quit being blind fans unless you admit that’s what you are
I’ve been around football for my whole 60 years of life
My son and father played d1 football
This team has only one way to go now
Up
We have hit bottom and will build momentum with players fans and critics when the plan for a QB becomes evident
That’s all that’s left for heavy lifting

In comment 14340012 greek13 said:

Quote:

How about all the people that predicted disaster? Were they right? Absolutely Were they called negative? Yes Were they called bad fans? Yes Where is everyone that predicted 12-4 11/5 Playoffs? Flowers success at RT? Wheeler will be good? Eli still has it? Where are you ? But you call out the people that were right? We are in the company of Arizona Miami Tampa As the worst teams in the nfl The worst teams for nearly a decade We can’t beat a good team With their starting QB We can’t get our defense off the field We have one great player at the most vulnerable position in Football Where are the people that praised Reese? Where are you? Eli should retire when he wants? Tom Brady should and nobody else. This team and franchise is not among the nfl elite anymore It is ROTTEN Its being torn down finally Blame Ross blame Reese blame Mara blame all of them We kept Reese when he should have been fired and tc moved upstairs We deserve this because of poor leadership Own it Quit being blind fans unless you admit that’s what you are I’ve been around football for my whole 60 years of life My son and father played d1 football This team has only one way to go now Up We have hit bottom and will build momentum with players fans and critics when the plan for a QB becomes evident That’s all that’s left for heavy lifting

What is this, a poem?

In comment 14339984 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs? Did I say they were going to make the playoffs? Or did my post going over you and Les's head?

Just having fun since you decided to go a bit too far with your post and deserved the poke.

And no, your posts are typically well below my head.

les can speak for himself...

...

In comment 14339772 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

You know who sure didn't look like they were scared to lose? The 2009 Giants who got the living shit beaten out of them by a mediocre Panthers team to get knocked out off playoff contention. In the very last game in Giants Stadium, no less. Just one of a boatload of embarassing defeats that marked the second half of Coughlin's tenure.

Not to pile on, but weren't many of those losses followed by the statement "I don't understand. We had a good week of practice"? A good many Coughlin teams shit the bed in critical games. But I digress...

...

In comment 14339490 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 14339482 Brown Recluse said: Quote: In comment 14339452 Go Terps said: Quote: Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course. I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone. Yes, the plan did change. Just like it changed with Collins. That is the concern.

Building a team is a fluid process, things change. You re trying to hard to put Gettleman in a box. It s a strength to changes direction if you see an original plan is flawed, not a sign of incompetence

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

Googs, although you're not talking to me, I'll be one of the first (if not the first) to say I was wrong. But I'm withholding judgement until after the draft. With so many changes it will take some time to gel, but I'm a Gettleman/Shurmur supporter, and if I'm wrong, I'll say so.

In comment 14340050 Photoguy said:

Quote:

In comment 14339772 Greg from LI said: Quote: You know who sure didn't look like they were scared to lose? The 2009 Giants who got the living shit beaten out of them by a mediocre Panthers team to get knocked out off playoff contention. In the very last game in Giants Stadium, no less. Just one of a boatload of embarassing defeats that marked the second half of Coughlin's tenure. Not to pile on, but weren't many of those losses followed by the statement "I don't understand. We had a good week of practice"? A good many Coughlin teams shit the bed in critical games. But I digress...

I was at at hat game, it was brutal.
Panthers and specifically S Smith skull fucked us.
I remember the play S Smith got his arm broke on a TD catch and still was sticking it in our faces.

What a way to send out the old stadium.

they will be better

average 4 wins the last 2 yrs-with a hard schedule and your best player out...

I would surely hope by default that they can be better this year. to make signing vets to 20m guaranteed worth it... we kind of need to make the playoffs imo.... i hope that happens, currently dont see it.

who everyone forgets about but was the guy who got things finally turned around. Carson, Marshal, Taylor, Simms, Van Pelt, Haynes, Kelly were all on that team. Parcells was the guy who almost blew it with his fascination with Brunner.

Where is the nucleus on this team to build around? There are two guys: Barkley and an aging Manning. We got rid of all the other possibilities. Where is the tradition of organization and mission? Shurmur, who seems like a good guy, has no record of success as a HC, neither the FO nor the owners pay any attention to him, and he follows the totally incompetent McAdoo.

Sorry folks. This resembles an expansion team more than a team re-building and it sure as hell doesn't resemble a "win now" team as jt suggests the delusional owners believe.

purge later. LT was pissed because he was his party buddy causing LT to comment "now we just have a bunch of guys who can run fast".

Only thing I’ll add is Eli is not part of the rot. He’s just not good when playing behind a shaky OL. Call it excuses call is whatever you want, it’s the truth. Eli can play when given time everyone can see that and even if he’s a decaying presence at qb he’s not infecting the roster or locker room. In short, he’s harmless. He’s coming off the books in 2020 unless he has a very very good year. There’s nothing wrong with letting this play out. His big cap hit isn’t preventing the giants from signing some amazing long term fix in fa and next year’s fa will yield more opportunity to find that guy or two.

In comment 14339772 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

You know who sure didn't look like they were scared to lose? The 2009 Giants who got the living shit beaten out of them by a mediocre Panthers team to get knocked out off playoff contention. In the very last game in Giants Stadium, no less. Just one of a boatload of embarassing defeats that marked the second half of Coughlin's tenure.

And then 2011 came along and washed that shit away. What’s done is done. That regime owes us nothing. Wasn’t perfect but it was more than good enough.

be optimistic. Quite frankly, this franchise as a whole has a credibility problem. When we start seeing some tangible results, I'll reconsider my position. Until then, I see no reason to suddenly have blind faith in an organization that has been an embarrassment for a decade plus. Outside of a miracle, fluky playoff run in 2011, the Giants have been mediocre at best since Plax shot himself.

In comment 14340131 djm said:
[quote] Only thing I’ll add is Eli is not part of the rot. He’s just not good when playing behind a shaky OL. Call it excuses call is whatever you want, it’s the truth. Eli can play when given time everyone can see that and even if he’s a decaying presence at qb he’s not infecting the roster or locker room. In short, he’s harmless. He’s coming off the books in 2020 unless he has a very very good year. There’s nothing wrong with letting this play out. His big cap hit isn’t preventing the giants from signing some amazing long term fix in fa and next year’s fa will yiel

Eli personally is not part of the problem.

But managements decision making being impacted buy his stature with the fan base most certainly is.

He is also not fixing the locker room, which you would expect a player of his stature to do. You would hope your two time SB MVP can be described as something better than "harmless"

that he turned out to be one of the all time great head coaches. I really don't believe Shurmur will be, hope I'm wrong.

there are people who hated the team because someone danced in the end zone and another kneeled during the national anthem. I can't take that seriously. The main reason anyone could hate the team is because they lost games and no one likes a loser. I had an issue with people calling Beckham individually a loser because he was one of the few people actually performing on the team. And you can't call Eli Manning a loser even though he's the sole constant through 7 years of losing because he's been to the mountaintop twice.

People keep focusing on the wrong things... the team simply doesn't have enough TALENT. They were the least talented defensive team in the sport in 2018. They weren't able to get everything they could out of the talent they had on offense because of a lack of talent along the o-line, a declining talent at QB, and perhaps underwhelming coaching talent. But back to the defense... they've been a terrible defense for 4 of the past 5 seasons and most of that is talent-related.

When/if this team starts winning again, it won't be because of "culture". It will be because they have more talent. It will probably be spread out more than just one generational talent who plays WR or RB. The Giants won 2 Super Bowls not primarily on culture. They won 2 Super Bowls because they used a shitload of picks to acquire a 1st overall pick QB with balls of Saturn. That 38 yard throw up the sideline to Mario Manningham took TALENT and balls. They won because they had talented WRs. They won because Michael Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and JPP were all great DEs. In 2004 and 2005, they had to spend a lot of money on Shaun O'Hara and Kareem McKenzie.

You want to talk about culture after you get the talent? Fine, but first you have to get the talent. I'm not dismissing "culture" completely, but I think it's something people say when football players don't fit into the perfect little box they'd prefer. Part of professional sports is dealing with personalities that can be flamboyant, self-absorbed, like to party, etc. It's part of what made Phil Jackson a great coach, for example. If people or the Giants front office think they can win while entirely avoiding players like that, then good luck with that.

In comment 14339727 Dave on the UWS said:

Quote:

what Eric means by "rot" and by "plan". I will use the Refrigerator analogy. When you open the fridge and something smells bad, you have to take everything out, dump almost all of it, and disinfect the whole thing. Essentially starting from scratch. THAT'S the plan. DG is getting rid of Everything from before. He is working to establish a NEW culture, a way to function, with NEW players. Beckham, Collins maybe part of the problem maybe not. Even Eli will be gone after this year. He is almost treating the team like an expansion team, starting from scratch. There's only a few guys left who may be the exceptions (Gallman, Tomlinson,) who may remain because of attitude and work ethic. For this team its the RIGHT plan.

You are saying obvious things here like they are something unique. The team needed to cleans the locker room and purge the poor contracts. Those things were, are, and remain obvious. What I believe is they miscalculated where the team was a year ago. And I think if you asked most fans they would agree with this. Everything we are seeing is not part of some seamless plan from the start. That's independent of the need to clean up the culture. And the initial intention was to keep Collins, and Odell. The plan was not to part ways with them from the start in efforts to clean things up. It became that only later.

I called the rot "malcontents and bad attitude".

I also said, you have to clean it all out.

I mentioned my own past experience taking over rotten projects. And that I could not blame DG for doing what I've done in the past.

Here is the thing. Yes I cleaned house on that project, I terminated all the contractors, I pushed all but 1 of the employees off the project. I threw out all the code and came up with a completely different design approach. I did it despite the fact we were facing some tight deadlines. The new team delivered... On Time...

Yay team... Or NOT...

You would have expected after taking over a failing but critical project and delivering it would have resulted in kudos.

Turns out, I may have cleaned up the team and project, but in doing so, I ruffled the feathers of some senior people.

Instead of kudos, I got a major backlash. They waited until after I delivered, but it got so bad I left the company. Some of the rot I cleaned out was rot connected to more rot that was higher up.

The analogy here, is that I'm not convinced that the Maras and Tisches hate/fear losing. Not much I can do about it, I don't spend time worrying about it. The hope I have is that Gettleman, can clean up enough rot like I did, the rot he has control over, and he can put a winning team out there. But, even if he does, this team will not be able to sustain success for long.

In comment 14339825 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 14339818 CT Charlie said: Quote: had turned out to be merely above-average starting NFL linemen, I'm guessing the past five years would have felt a lot different. You basically just said if the Giants had different players, they would be a different team. (And note the high-level of the draft picks you just listed).

That was my point, Eric. I was simply saying out that if Reese/Ross/scouts/coaches had been better at evaluating talent -- at the positions they rightly identified as a priority -- we would have had a lot more wins, Eli might have looked good, and this whole rot might have been avoided. Whoever signed off on these guys was really bad, or really unlucky.

In comment 14339751 RollBlue said:
[quote



Yet, after a less than inspiring season last year, both are still here.

You wanted Shurmur fires after 1 season? Yikes!

we're unlucky...

as usual lots of inaccurate information about Parcells and the 80's. The "house cleaning" after 1983 was not about football. It was about drugs. The Giants were far from the only team in the NFL in the early 80's that had a massive drug problem but they had one and those were the players that were sent away. Except one of course.

As far as the current Giants go most of you are missing the big picture. Once Ernie "retired" that ended the George Young era of player evaluation and of Mara's in the background. Once Ernie's players retired or were traded away the Mara brothers got front and center and they've sent the franchise right back into the 1970's. It;s like Wellington Deja Vu. Tiny circle of trust, old school pen and paper vs high tech. The Giants are a F150 with 200,000 miles on it and the Eagles are a F1 Car. Good luck winning that race.

Lots of you younger fans think Wellington was a great guy and the Mara family has whitewashed his history. But when he ran the Giants he was a combination of Fred Wilpon and James Dolan but less popular. Hating this team is nothing new if you're old enough.

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

Quote:

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

Why, though? There were plenty of posters going into last season who said the Giants were making the playoffs, and they didn't come close. And all of those posters still post here daily.

Talk about a lack of self-awareness.

In comment 14340247 arniefez said:

Quote:

as usual lots of inaccurate information about Parcells and the 80's. The "house cleaning" after 1983 was not about football. It was about drugs. The Giants were far from the only team in the NFL in the early 80's that had a massive drug problem but they had one and those were the players that were sent away. Except one of course. As far as the current Giants go most of you are missing the big picture. Once Ernie "retired" that ended the George Young era of player evaluation and of Mara's in the background. Once Ernie's players retired or were traded away the Mara brothers got front and center and they've sent the franchise right back into the 1970's. It;s like Wellington Deja Vu. Tiny circle of trust, old school pen and paper vs high tech. The Giants are a F150 with 200,000 miles on it and the Eagles are a F1 Car. Good luck winning that race. Lots of you younger fans think Wellington was a great guy and the Mara family has whitewashed his history. But when he ran the Giants he was a combination of Fred Wilpon and James Dolan but less popular. Hating this team is nothing new if you're old enough.

LT didn't need Brian Kelley and Brad Van Pelt to show him those ropes, he was pretty good at figuring it out on his own. I always found it funny they were sent away for being bad influences. It also helped that the Giants brought in Banks and Reasons in 1984, and they had Hunt and Headen on the roster already.

In comment 14340204 .McL. said:

Quote:

I called the rot "malcontents and bad attitude". I also said, you have to clean it all out. I mentioned my own past experience taking over rotten projects. And that I could not blame DG for doing what I've done in the past. Here is the thing. Yes I cleaned house on that project, I terminated all the contractors, I pushed all but 1 of the employees off the project. I threw out all the code and came up with a completely different design approach. I did it despite the fact we were facing some tight deadlines. The new team delivered... On Time...

It doesn't take any talent to tear something down. That's all Gettleman has really shown the ability to do as a NFL GM. It takes a heckuva lot of talent to build something. The foundation pieces of the Carolina Panters were already in place when he arrived. I know it's early, but things like the Solder contract, not getting assets for Landon Collins, and tethering ourselves to Eli Manning in order to win/compete in 2019 don't give me even an ounce of confidence in DG. I honestly hope he proves me wrong.

The Giants have had success during the last 15 years, and a lot of that is attributed to the pro-player personnel moves which were headed up by Dave Gettleman. I don't think he gets enough credit for the many valued FA that he brought in here who contributed heavily to the SB runs.

Why should we immediately be upset that when the organization wanted to go back to their SB champ status of 7 years earlier they brought in a guy who was a critical part of that success and they knew well? It's NOT like how Washington has done things - chasing the hottest newest FA, coaches and GM's. They brought back a guy who helped them construct a SB championship roster and gave him the keys to try to do so again.

That's why I've urged patience with DG. Let's see what he does. In another 2-4 years I may be completely soured on him, but right now I want to see where he's going with this re-organization of the roster.

If you're biased against him and think he's a part of the problem, then no wonder you turned on him from the time of the hire and continue to find evidence that all he does is lose in every move he makes.

Otherwise, maybe he is getting things right and time will tell. We'll see.

started in October 2012 in the home game vs. Pitt after Hurricane Sandy. That game was the start of this horrendous 7 year run we've been on. We have an awful record since that game.

And guess what? That game took place a full 2 years before Beckham even got drafted.

Whatever the black cloud was/is, it started way before Beckham even dressed for a game as a Giant.

In comment 14340340 Dave in Hoboken said:

Quote:

started in October 2012 in the home game vs. Pitt after Hurricane Sandy. That game was the start of this horrendous 7 year run we've been on. We have an awful record since that game. And guess what? That game took place a full 2 years before Beckham even got drafted. Whatever the black cloud was/is, it started way before Beckham even dressed for a game as a Giant.

Bingo

In comment 14340340 Dave in Hoboken said:

Quote:

started in October 2012 in the home game vs. Pitt after Hurricane Sandy. That game was the start of this horrendous 7 year run we've been on. We have an awful record since that game. And guess what? That game took place a full 2 years before Beckham even got drafted. Whatever the black cloud was/is, it started way before Beckham even dressed for a game as a Giant.

I'd suggest it started when we put Ross in charge of college scouting, got worse when we lost Gettleman in January of 2013. The front office bought into blaming coaches while the talent brought in generally was a disaster, with a few bright exceptions like Beckham.

Tom Coughlin is at fault. The players who were brought in and didn't work hard or flat out didn't give a shit are at fault. The GMs and front office are at fault. Ownership at fault.

There isn't one member of the Giants hierarchy since 2012 who isn't at fault. Coughling, Reese, Mara, Tisch, Mcadoo, Spags, Gilbride, Ross, Fewell, etc.

They're complicit.

the rot, something off about this team, Odell got caught up in it, bla bla bla.

Team very good and 2007, could have repeated in 2008 had Burress not shot himself. won it all in 2011. Which brings us to the next 7-8 years.

Biggest problems - deterioration of Oline, Gilbride (warned the Front Office re: the need to rebuild front 5 - warnings ignored, OLine deteriorated and in turn the offense - Mara, who ignored Gilbride, concluded that the offense was broken and that it was Gilbride's fault.

There's no rot - reese and scouts and the front office were simply not competent at meeting their primary job responsibilities "find talent -get talent - keep talent -discard deicient talent."

Coughlin, not even Lombardi, could overcome the talent deficit so eventually they bring in a new guy McAdoo. Problem with hot coordinators - people always looking for the next great young mind. McAdoo inherited an undertalented team and was probably thrown to the wolves, not ripe for the picking. Quite common - the desire to grab the next great football mind BEFORE another team does results in grabbing someone before they're ready. I wouldn't fault F.O. for this failure - very difficult to get this decision right.

Odell - high strung player who came into an unstable environment. Young inexperienced coach, undertalented team. Odell probably needed a firm stable hand and environment. He was analogous to a kid in a family right before the divorce. But, Odell could have handled it differently. Some kids spiral out of control in unstable homes, some step up and even become de facto parents.

There's no rot. Just key people incompetent at their jobs, they've been fired and looks like the replacemenst we have now have a reasonable grasp of the situation and are taking reasonable steps to correct it.

Even with all of the losing his last 3 seasons and the issues like clock management, I now think they should've given him one more season with the defensive free agents they brought in. If it didn't work out, then they should've done a full rebuild as opposed to the half measure rebuild they chose (keeping McAdoo, Spags, Reese, Eli, etc.)

he picked some poor coordinators and was stubborn to a fault

any of these other people.

I suspect when they gave Beckham 95 million someone was very direct and told him what they expected of him for that contract. The interview had to be exactly what they specifically told him not to do, no? They must have felt betrayed.

You got a brand new HC and he says give me a chance to fix it and you have a player that talented - probably felt obligated to afford him the opportunity to fix it.

they were probably giving PS the benefit of the doubt, perhaps Beckham not so much

When you trade one of best receivers in the league in his prime, trade away a former high first round corner, trade your former high pick LT, trade your best pass rusher, etc, in the last six months, I think rot is definitely on the list of issues...

Think we're both talking about - fundamental, institutional problems just calling it something different

Was the right move, was probably a year late. They should have also fired Reese when they fired Tom, but the Giants don’t fire GMs. It’s not the “Giants Way”.

If Eli doesn’t get benched and the uproar doesn’t follow I’d bet you Reese and Ross are running the team last year.

In comment 14340602 ajr2456 said:

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Was the right move, was probably a year late. They should have also fired Reese when they fired Tom, but the Giants don’t fire GMs. It’s not the “Giants Way”. If Eli doesn’t get benched and the uproar doesn’t follow I’d bet you Reese and Ross are running the team last year.

That’s rot.

seems more agile in that he will change the tires while the car is still driving and he will reverse major decisions if the situation changes.

during the last year they were here. Now it is disappointment with some hope.

Was bizarre in so many ways. The whole transformation of wearing a jacket two sizes too large to the slicked-back hair look by McAdoo. The Reese pressers, the panic move of sitting Eli in a last ditch to save a job.

Just such a weird non-Giants like feel to it. I mean we have had periods of bad seasons but that just felt like a completely different team

because it's so easy for them when they get proficient with the joy-stick in Madden.

You just, like, sign, like, all the, like,best free agents and go, like, $100 million over the cap. It's so simple. Just, like, do it!

was altered to include more active input from the Mara's and the Tisches, is when the process of rot began.

TC arrested it to a degree but b/c of his age & personality could not reverse it.

Until John Mara learns the lessons his father did, likely in the same manner his father did, the team will struggle like it did.

The only real difference is the league itself is so watered down and diluted, that you can see which teams are doing things differently (NE and Seattle as examples) and being rewarded for it. Vs the rest of the league adhering to models and mindsets that are out of date.

In comment 14340716 VinegarPeppers said:

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because it's so easy for them when they get proficient with the joy-stick in Madden. You just, like, sign, like, all the, like,best free agents and go, like, $100 million over the cap. It's so simple. Just, like, do it!

Literally nobody says this.

that want us to build a more robust technology platform. I was just playing Madden the other day and I realized video games are technology, maybe the Giants need more technology. SMH.

In comment 14339771 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14339591 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: The tide started to turn for me last year and it finished the day the traded OBJ. My immediate reaction was that there were reasons we had not heard about. It’s in the thread. I don’t hate Eli, I love him. I just think he has lost the thing that made him special. I thought it was he had played so long behind a terrible OL, they had robbed him of his “IT”. I think it may have been the rot. He was on team that clearly loved and played for each other. They unceremoniously fired the man that treated him like a son. We heard it when he left. I think what the team transformed into broke his heart. OBJ the face of the franchise? Just no. The guy showed up to every fucking game and played hurt. Fuck OBJ. Hunt, OBJ and Mayfield with a first year coach lololoolol I am glad they are doing this. I am GLAD they are giving Eli another shot. I am fucking hope he kills it. Fuck all the Giant haters, no really. FUCK YOU, you intolerant assholes. Sounds like a 180 for me? You are damn fucking right and I feel a shit ton better. Rather root for a classy organization then one that makes immature assholes their face. I AM PROUD OF THE NY GIANTS TODAY! I have not been since the fire TC over Reese. I have a strong suspicion that they are going to be a lot better than anyone thinks. GO GIANTS!!!!! Thumbs up!

I agree Britt, great post.

2019 version!!!

One thing that strikes me about the Giants in the past 5 seasons was the lack of a “team” feel. It all changed during the Beckham one handed catch against Dallas in 2014. That play created a mega star in terms of national popularity. Beckham almost transcended the team.

Every game during warmups, Beckham one handed catches would be televised.

The camera would always find Beckham on the sidelines.

Beckham would often become a national media story, just a few examples off the top of my head:

-Carolina game in 2015
-Minnesota game in 2016
-Outburst with the kicking net
-Pissing like a dog
-Shouting at the fan against Philly in 2018
-ESPN interview
-Missing the final 4 games last year

It just didn’t feel like a team dynamic, it felt like Beckham transcended the team.

It’s refreshing to think it’ll be different this year.

Now can you please spare us from this Rosen fan club nagging lobby day in and day out . It has been two years now and it is never ending and ruining the site.

They rotted under Alie Sherman, and continued all the way to Young, Perkins and Parcells. THe rot was cleaned for a while but started coming back by the end of Parcells and certainly under he who shall not be named. Then Reeves came in and cleaned out that rot, the team improved, but he quickly introduced his own version of rot. Fassel came in and things started to straighten out a bit for a time, (i will credit Accorsi) but then things rotted again under him. Coughlin cleaned up the rot and brought a couple of championships, but between him and Reese, things rotted again...

To my point the other day, the real rot is at the top. We may bring in some shit kickers who clean it up for a while, but it will always come back.

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I worry that perhaps the rot is ownership (Tisch, Maras including Chris) and the FO. Hopefully it is not the repeat of the 70's when Rozelle finally had to step in and 'foist' (thank goodness) Young on the Giants.

Of course that is the rot. Who else made the choice to fire Coughlin and keep Reese? And who else has lacked the sense of honor or accountability to step forward and acknowledge blame? Maybe DG has what it takes, and maybe he doesn't. But whoever is the GM, ownership should get the hell away from football decisions. That is the basic thing they owe to the fans.