I want to preface my remarks that I never called for the Giants to trade Odell. And when I tuned into BBI on the night he got traded, my first response was "Holy (blank)... they traded him!"
But if there was one common refrain I saw from the past five years or so on BBI it was, "I hate this team!"
Fancy that... fans tend to dislike their team when it is not winning. But there seemed to be something deeper than that. BBI was around during other dark times during the 1990s and 2000s. Other than 2016, the team seemed largely dysfunctional. We drafted guys from winning collegiate programs who seemed to quickly become too comfortable with losing. It got to the point where something happened that I never thought I'd see as a Giants fan: Giants fans stopped watching. They stopped going to the games. They didn't watch on TV. Other than the last game or two of a losing season, I had never seen that before. And I can't imagine how empty the seats would have been had Saquon Barkley not been on this team last year despite the fact that these seats were already paid for!
"I hate this team!"
Some folks have mocked posters like Greg and bw who smelled the rot. I don't know if the Giants are turning a corner or not. I don't know if the rot has stopped (those who want Eli out of here yesterday obviously think it hasn't). But something has been "off" on this team for quite some time. Rightly or wrongly, Beckham got caught up in that. He may have contributed to the rot, or been a victim of it... everyone will have a different opinion.
But it is quite clear that Gettleman has smelled the rot. He's purging ALMOST EVERY player from this roster acquired by the previous regime. It's obvious now. Parcells did this after the 1983 season when there wasn't any free agency. He dumped half the team. Gettleman will have almost completely dumped the entire team in two years. Just wait until we compare the September 2019 roster with the September 2017 roster. Hardly anyone will be left.
Why is Odell gone? Right or wrong, Gettleman hated the old team too.
Quote:
In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.
Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.
He should have dealt him last offseason.
For what? They wouldn’t have gotten shit for him last year. Coming off the injury and only one year left on his contract? That contract he signed is the only reason they were able to get what they did in return. At least the Browns know he’s under their control now
Quote:
In comment 14339510 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.
Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.
He should have dealt him last offseason.
For what? They wouldn’t have gotten shit for him last year. Coming off the injury and only one year left on his contract? That contract he signed is the only reason they were able to get what they did in return. At least the Browns know he’s under their control now
It wouldn't have been much different from what they just got, and we wouldn't be dealing with $16M in dead money.
But yeah he should have been traded after the boat trip. That was the sweet spot.
To contrast running a team in a principled way, let's talk about Kareem Hunt. People praise the Brown's for taking a shot with him. He has an 8-game suspension but they still get a hell of a player for nothing. For me? This disgusts me. Rather, I'd like to align myself with the Chiefs, who could also have kept Hunt, but made the principled move. You can't praise both the Chiefs and the Browns here, or you can but for different reasons.
As for the Giants, I don't want a bunch of whiners and sore losers. I'll take players that have been through things, mental illness, addiction, a tough background and things that go along with that, but privilege and abuse of privilege, that doesn't sit right with me.
I think Reese sensed this the year he drafted like 4 or 5 college team captains but they weren’t gifted enough on the field to make a difference.
One could argue that a big drawback on Eli is that he’s too easy ... with his position and salary, fiery would be better,
I’m happy to see OBJ go ... our most recent downspiral started with the Bieber boat trip and the debacle in Green Bay. Over the past 60 years I’ve ‘hated’ my heroes a lot but never more than when the Diva was peeing on the field or the trash with Norman. He embarrassed the team and the franchise many times with his immaturity. Good bye, good luck, good riddance.
what's interesting to me is that the purge of players has not been matched by any real internal purge in the front office. yes Reese and Ross are deservedly gone. but, for example, the entire pro personnel office is intact. these are the people who gave you last year's free agent class. and they're back at again this year. i'm puzzled why they get such a pass on last year, as though those signings were just fluky misses. or has anyone else noticed how weird it is to hear the Giants justifying the Peppers acquisition by talking about how much the team liked him when he was drafted? it just reinforces that while Reese and Ross are gone, many of the architects of this team's disastrous drafting remains.
every GM in the league has "a plan." Idzik had a plan for the Jets. Griggson had a plan for the Colts. look how well those plans went. having a plan means nothing. it's about the ability of the organization to identify talent and put it on the field. and count me as skeptical that there's been nearly enough change in the front office to give me much confidence.
Quote:
In comment 14339452 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.
I think the plan changed. I think Shurmur stuck his neck out for Beckham and it blew up in his face. Now they've done the best they can to make it right for everyone.
Yes, the plan did change. Just like it changed with Collins. That is the concern.
Ummm, one MAJOR point to consider- The Giants didn't know they would be trading Beckham this offseason, at the trade deadline last season. At that time they probably felt Collins was going to be part of this team. BUT, this offseason and clearly at the Combine, the Giants and the Browns were talking trade and who would be involved. They must have known Peppers was going to be a part of this deal before they dropped any idea of tagging and or of keeping Collins... Nothing was done in a vacuum..
Thats what I'm afraid of as well. Always liked the Maras, but their track record of late has been abysmal
Great guy - easy to root for - but he's got to go. He's the last piece that HAS to go.
He was on team that clearly loved and played for each other. They unceremoniously fired the man that treated him like a son. We heard it when he left. I think what the team transformed into broke his heart. OBJ the face of the franchise? Just no. The guy showed up to every fucking game and played hurt. Fuck OBJ. Hunt, OBJ and Mayfield with a first year coach lololoolol
I am glad they are doing this. I am GLAD they are giving Eli another shot. I am fucking hope he kills it. Fuck all the Giant haters, no really. FUCK YOU, you intolerant assholes. Sounds like a 180 for me? You are damn fucking right and I feel a shit ton better. Rather root for a classy organization then one that makes immature assholes their face. I AM PROUD OF THE NY GIANTS TODAY! I have not been since the fire TC over Reese.
I have a strong suspicion that they are going to be a lot better than anyone thinks. GO GIANTS!!!!!
Quote:
Gettleman made Beckham the highest paid receiver in the NFL. If this was the plan, it was poorly executed and is only now being onto the right course.
Well sure, but would you have preferred he let him walk for nothing? We get it, you wanted him traded sooner. But you can’t blame Gettleman for that, he wasn’t here then.
This is a widly intellectually dishonest, and incongruent statement.
The Giants had Beckham on his 5th year option going into the 2018 season, he was under contract and the Giants owned his rights.
They had 4 choices: cut him (clearly not an option), let him play out his 5th year, trade him, or extend him.
The Giants made a mistake, and then made up for it. They paid him 23M for 12 games.
They made good on a mistake, but they made a mistake.
The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward.
Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.
The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward.
Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.
I think this will be the best Giants team in years. Not ready to compete, but they cut out a lot of cancer this offseason.
My big concern is still the quality of the coaching. I don't believe in Shurmur at all.
2) Up until this week I have been in the Eli should go group. Now, I think we need to give him one more shot. First, he has earned the right to finish out his career here. Second, the Giants for teh first time in along time seem to be building the offense around sound principles and not "star" players. This isn't about Eli only, or OBJ outside, it is a concept built around a solid running game (the Pats with a multi headed attack ran the ball and threw the ball to their backs a TON), multi faceted passing game (players can and should be interchangeable- see Pats) with a solid smart Oline.
I think we can see Eli be more like Kurt Warner ala his Cardinals stint after leaving the Giants. He is a guy who knows where to go with the ball, will be a mentor to somebody (tbd still) and will have a major weapon (who can have an effect on all areas of the offense) to lean on in Barkley.
What is questionable was the timing. Moving on may be the plan now, but it wasn't the plan when they signed him to a massive deal, and Odell is the exact same guy today he was then. Like the decision to move on from Collins after passing on opportunity to get something in return, it's the fact of their wavering their decision making that concerns me.
Right. It’s the fact that they re-signed him, created a narrative he’s a cancer, devalued their asset, then sold after devaluation. They just gave up Collins without using the tools they had at their disposal to get assets for him. It’s poor planning and poor asset management.
I think the one thing the board will agree on is that there needs to be change. What and how the change is being effectuated is where the arguments are.
That coupled with the NFL being an inferior product in the past 10-15 years and I can see why fans have stopped giving a fuck.
Do you think though that losing breeds contempt?
After/during 2016 do you think the sentiment changed to more positive?
Maybe the letdown of 2017 washed away any of the good feelings and swung things to a worse place. High expectations = much higher disappointment when they're missed.
Just asking, I don't have the answer. But I think the majority of fans are very emotional and their emotions ebb and flow with wins and losses.
The bigger issue seems to be strategic - the belief that they can win now. They're making compromises in an attempt to pull a winning season immediately, ones that will likely not only result in a positive outcome now, but prolong the losing going forward.
Around here, we call that 'The Knicks'.
I dont even know if they think they can win, I think they are just scared shitless of handling Manning's exit wrong.
Its leading to poor decisions
Do you think though that losing breeds contempt?
After/during 2016 do you think the sentiment changed to more positive?
Maybe the letdown of 2017 washed away any of the good feelings and swung things to a worse place. High expectations = much higher disappointment when they're missed.
Just asking, I don't have the answer. But I think the majority of fans are very emotional and their emotions ebb and flow with wins and losses.
I'll preface my response by reminding folks that I thought the Giants never really considered anyone else but Gettleman. And because of that, their GM search was a farce and poorly conducted.
But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing.
I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.
Having said that I think you give George Young no credit as the guy who smelled the rot and began turning the aircraft carrier around in 1980 by drafting Simms and then in ‘81 drafting the immortal LT. Young selected tough man Ray Perkins to help clean the ship but was short circuited when Perkins returned to Alabama and eventually seemingly dissappeared.
Young was left to choose Parcells who he was not convinced of after the horrid ?’83 season and the Monday night football game with St. louis cards and searched for new coach which caused an irreparable rifts with Parcells that eventually caused Parcells to leave giants and Young and Belicheck basically in the lurch.
Now here we are with DG and Maras still and Tisch. I’m sure Mara told DG to move OBJ and DG tried to get the best price. He is cleaning house and as I have posted many times before, building a team as all great football teams are with guys who are lunchpail, want to play football guys, and around a generational RB. Giants will run, score when they can, eat the clock, play action pass and not be left unable to maintain a lead in 4th qtr or close a game in 4th qtr by getting needed first downs, where almost all games are won or lost. DG is also rebuilding 21st century the to fit his and the 3/4 mold. St’s were surprisingly good last year which says something about their coaches and so many back up guys who play st’s
How this all works out will in part depend on Eli and his unknown successor but I think DG, his personnel and scouting departments, as well as his coaching staff have a plan and are executing it.
Giants #1 in draft capital based on number of picks - ( New Window )
If they’re good (9-7 or better) I’ll take a public flogging on here happily.
Quote:
Agreed ...but honestly, did they really think OBJ was going to change for the better after they handed him a massive contract? As I said, he's the exact same guy today he was when he signed the deal.
Again, why do people keep bringing up the contract? Would you really have preferred they let him go and got nothing in return? So they signed him to a huge contract. It wasn’t really all that hard to move now was it? They have to eat some dead cap this season, sure, but they also got a 1st, 3rd and a starting safety out of the deal.
But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing.
I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.
Eric - we've heard a lot about drafting for culture around here. Once the swoon started, while TC was still onboard, remember how the focus was drafting good character players, guys who were team captains?
If that was a focal point of their process, it failed. Either that, or character wasn't nearly as important as originally believed.
The thing to keep in mind - the same guys are evaluating the talent today and going forward that selected all those team captains.
I think this team has a problem, and it's rooted directly at the top. I've said this before, on his own I wouldn't mind Gettleman as much - I think he's older than I'd like, and his approach to analytics really bothers me. But it's not until he's coupled with this organization that I really thought they were destined for failure. And the OBJ situation is just more evidence of that - FO and ownership not being on the same page.
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?
but when your team trades guys like Patrick Ewing or OBJ.. it has a impact at least temporary.. I would've felt the same way about Eli but that has past.. It sucked this bad when he was benched for Geno..
That wasn't just 2017.. it goes back to the must win game against Baltimore in 2012.. OBJ, Collins, Snacks and Apple weren't there for that one.. It has continued from then till now.. With the exception of 2016.. where I distinctly remember our horrible TE on a 3rd down.. went out of bounds and not even attempt to get a first down.. Who saved us on the very next play? it was a 4th down against a good defense.. OBJ.. I think its stupid to think he didn't love winning or accepted losing.. No one here knows him enough to make that call..
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11:22 am : link : reply
Yup, that "team captains" thing is a long, distant memory, isn't it?
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?
jcn
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11:23 am : link : reply
I saw more emotion from the 2017 Giants on Twitter than I did on the playing field.
Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?
One guy got upset. But he is no longer in the team.
Quote:
Yup, that "team captains" thing is a long, distant memory, isn't it?
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but did anyone on this team ever seem that upset over losing in recent years?
One guy got upset. But he is no longer in the team.
At losing or not getting the ball?
The fans in general have over-rated the talent and potential of this team. We have often seen posts that include "with all of this talent..."
The reality is outside of OBJ and a decent QB, we really were not rich in talent. We had starters at many positions that would either be a backup on another team or not in the league.
We are finally blowing this thing up. We had a piece of shit car with really nice rims (Odell). We have nothing to lose...we are already losers.
It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.
Quote:
And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility.
Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.
Didn't he fight Harvin before the super bowl?
He hired Getteleman after the Reese ROT, and now It's Gettelman Rot.
I was for a total house cleaning, and pulling up of any roots of former Giants connections so there could be a fresh start, but of course that was too much to hope for.
Gettelman is the perfect YES man for Mara. He wouldnt have any kind of high level personnel job anywhere in the NFL if not for Mara. He got rid of Beckham, (after giving him a big time contract?) because Mara didnt like him, and he'd always be a problem? Why pay him and then decide you dont want him? And trade him away at a discount? What was the urgency there? Was he going to hold out a year after getting a mega deal?
Schurmur is ROT. They hired an OC with no people skills, and once the FA defense Reese bought him crapped out the following year, he showed his absolute incompetence. Now we have another OC, seems better at dealing with players than Mac (which is not saying much), and he is on course for more losing seasons and being fired within the next 2-3 years tops.
This team made a bad GM decision, and a bad HC decision, and they will be a losing team until they figure out that they really need to clean house. This isnt a Parcells house cleaning, as the 3 main sources of ROT are still in the house causing the stench. One is not going anywhere, but until he learns that leaning on old ties, and old relationships, are not always the way to make the best decisions as to who runs this football team. And that's another thing Mara needs to do, take that long skinny honker out of personnel decisions and leave them to people you trust to make those decisions. Confusing, I know: Dont rely on old relationships just because they are familiar, hire against that natural instinct, and then step back and let that person make the important decisions related to personnel. I am asking too much, I know, but I cant help but see the ROT of this team starting from the top, and his 2 worst recent decisions have been Gettelman and Shurmur.
Quote:
And sign Tate who is an even bigger asshole? I'd be on board with this if there seems to be a plan. But when you dump OBJ, call him a distraction, and then sign Tate, your plan loses credibility.
Ive never once seen Tate cause a distraction on the field or an interview.
You don't think it was awkard to be in the huddle with a QB whose wife you fucked? or at worst were rumored to fuck and Wilson nor the team ever came to his defense and never wanted him back?
It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.
I agree, it will be interesting to see how he performs and acts in Cleveland
Should be very telling