"I hate this team!"

and having a roster full of character guys is all well and good. But a losing team full of good guys is really no different than a losing team full of me-first guys. If the front office is behind the times when it comes to roster construction, positional value, etc., none of it's going to matter.

We're trying to compete with big cap hits coming from dead money, an average to below average QB, and the RB position. It's going to be very difficult to build a a competitive roster given those handicaps.

I now own my own business but for 10 years I was the administrator for a 3 physician 3.5 million dollar practice. I was in complete control of the staff except for one person. The owner’s scribe and manager of the technicians. She was the most educated, productive and talented person the staff. She was also a raging asshole. The morale in the office was terrible. She was above the law, so to speak.

One thing began to become obvious. Whenever she was out or on vacation the office ran better. Everyone raised their game. From the front office to the rest of technicians. Everyone worked for each other, HARD. Addition by subtraction is a real thing. When most of the production comes from an asshole, they get entitled and act however they want and it reduces the performance of others.

I love the plan. Get the assholes out and let me watch a team again, a group of guys that love and play hard for each other. Anyone who that tells the coach to fuck off HAS GOT TO GO. Can’t have it, you will NEVER have sustained success with assholes like that. It is a house built on sand. I am excited for 2019. DG was right about Barkley, he has it all combined with character in spades.

In comment 14339733 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water? It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys.

I think Freddie Kitchens is the biggest thing that gives me pause there - this guy has no HC experience. I'd think that's the last thing you'd want in place to manage all of these big personalities they're bringing in there... the guy was literally not even a coordinator until last year. Up until then, he was just a positional coach.

The Browns are either going to be really good, or it's going to be an absolute disaster.

One thing is for sure.... they better not start 0-2...

OBJ sure seemed passionate about winning to me. The last 8 games of last year were meaningless, not to mention the last 4.

The rot DG smells is an aging, immobile QB (who I love, and always will), and the coaching for about the last 5 years.

Yet, after a less than inspiring season last year, both are still here.

For about the 10 millionth time, it's a QB and Coach driven league. Until they FINALLY address both of those properly, we can have the best RB, OL, etc in the league, it won't translate to winning Super Bowls. Why do you think Dallas hasn't sniffed one in 25 years, despite recently having a great OL, RB, and a pretty decent Defense?

Reese was a poor GM and was kept on far too long. Teams would get wind of players we liked and would trade up to get in front of us, and we end up with trash like Eli Apple..

Reese had one good draft, the rest were sub par and you can see that because the lack of depth and talent on the team.

Poor drafts lead to over paying in F/A and that puts you in CAP HELL.

The Eli of today is not the Eli of 2011. But I will argue that Reese/ Ross WASTED many years of prime Eli time by poor drafts and failure to rebuild the OL. Reese was so arrogant, because he hit on JPP, he thought he could outsmart the league and keep drafting freak athletes, instead of football players...

He was left in place far too long by ownership.
Just because your last name is Mara, doesn't mean you are a football genuis. Mara needed to get outside of this comfort zone and hire a real front office. Remember, we were in this position because, in the 1970's with Mara Cronies running things, the team got into being the joke of the NFL. and a stalemate ensued, with out Roselle, we dont have Young, Parcells or 2 super Bowls.

I dont know if DG is good or bad, at this point, but he's who we have. I hope he can get things right

In comment 14339639 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I'll preface my response by reminding folks that I thought the Giants never really considered anyone else but Gettleman. And because of that, their GM search was a farce and poorly conducted. But Gettleman is right about one thing. You want players who are more afraid of losing than they want to win. Those are the players Parcells sought because what drove him more was the fear of losing. I don't think the Reese-Ross-McAdoo Giants feared losing.

Eric - what about Eli? Do you think he's more afraid of losing than he wants to win?

Why build a strategy around a specific mindset but establish at the core a leader who doesn't share that mindset? Could a lack of fear of losing from Eli be a part why the Giants have lost the "fear of losing"?

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

Quote:

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

Oh come on brother -- that's not true. There is plenty of reason to be both 1) optimistic in the long-term and 2) pessimistic about this season.

I'm thrilled Gettleman is moving bad contracts, collecting cap and draft picks, and getting younger. I wanted him to do that last year.

I don't think this is a playoff team right now. I think it's actually a pretty bad team.

I remember a good deal of optimism coming out of UFA last year, after adding Solder, Omameh, Martin, and trading for Ogletree. It was an average class of acquisitions followed by a good draft.

All that and the following churn made it a 2 win better team.

I think this is a 6-10 team, unless they draft and play a QB, then I'd say 4-12.

And I'll be available to stand by that stance all season, including if they are in the playoffs where I will be very happy to be wrong.

But this draft is pivotal for better or worse.

Consistently breeds grumpiness. people will not be that much happier if we go 5-11 again, only without the antics/drama and with an improved culture. While stepping back in the big picture fans are lucky to have 4 super bowl wins, being a hardcore fan is an addiction and you crave the highs of winning.

In comment 14339591 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

The tide started to turn for me last year and it finished the day the traded OBJ. My immediate reaction was that there were reasons we had not heard about. It’s in the thread. I don’t hate Eli, I love him. I just think he has lost the thing that made him special. I thought it was he had played so long behind a terrible OL, they had robbed him of his “IT”. I think it may have been the rot. He was on team that clearly loved and played for each other. They unceremoniously fired the man that treated him like a son. We heard it when he left. I think what the team transformed into broke his heart. OBJ the face of the franchise? Just no. The guy showed up to every fucking game and played hurt. Fuck OBJ. Hunt, OBJ and Mayfield with a first year coach lololoolol I am glad they are doing this. I am GLAD they are giving Eli another shot. I am fucking hope he kills it. Fuck all the Giant haters, no really. FUCK YOU, you intolerant assholes. Sounds like a 180 for me? You are damn fucking right and I feel a shit ton better. Rather root for a classy organization then one that makes immature assholes their face. I AM PROUD OF THE NY GIANTS TODAY! I have not been since the fire TC over Reese. I have a strong suspicion that they are going to be a lot better than anyone thinks. GO GIANTS!!!!!

Thumbs up!

You know who sure didn't look like they were scared to lose? The 2009 Giants who got the living shit beaten out of them by a mediocre Panthers team to get knocked out off playoff contention. In the very last game in Giants Stadium, no less. Just one of a boatload of embarassing defeats that marked the second half of Coughlin's tenure.

In comment 14339720 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Organizations get stale. The clubby atmosphere breeds groupthink. Yes, Tom Coughlin, Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were fired....but what happened when Reese was fired? They went the sadly predictable route of bringing in Accorsi as a supposed consultant to hire his former deputy, a guy eligible for Social Security who thinks he's resurrecting the '73 Dolphins blueprint. The scouting department remains mostly intact. They're rearranging the deck chairs, that's all.

This right here.

If the problem with this team is the "stink of losing" then you're not getting rid of the stink by just ditching players. The stink goes all the way up the chain right into the owners' box.

What I see here from the actions over the last few days is waste. Waste of time. Waste of money. Waste of player talent. And a lot of people making excuses for poor performance.

If we're blowing up the team to clean out the stink, we're doing it at least a year late.

In comment 14339744 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14339733 Eric from BBI said: Quote: You mean the guy who didn't play the last four games? Or the guy who couldn't play because he didn't drink enough water? It will be very interesting to see what happens in Cleveland. Everyone thinks that team will take off and dominate. There is a lot of pressure on those guys. I agree, it will be interesting to see how he performs and acts in Cleveland Should be very telling

I expect in there years he won't be in Cleveland anymore.

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

Dan in the Springs... I personally think Eli isn't the same hungry player he was back in 2011.

Negative Nancy when Beckham was traded. Just felt like a kick to the guy for me, personally.

I've been onboard (for the most part) with Dave being brought in. Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster. I've been onboard (mostly) for Eli being the QB... That's starting to wane but I'll wait and see.

Things are very fluid right now. The QB situation, the defense, ect ect...

I may "hate" this team sometimes but I love this team. As I suspect we all go.

Good post Eric.

In comment 14339779 Tim in Eternal Blue said:

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Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster.

You know what he inherited in Carolina? The nucleus of that SB roster he supposedly "constructed".

In comment 14339720 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Organizations get stale. The clubby atmosphere breeds groupthink. Yes, Tom Coughlin, Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were fired....but what happened when Reese was fired? They went the sadly predictable route of bringing in Accorsi as a supposed consultant to hire his former deputy, a guy eligible for Social Security who thinks he's resurrecting the '73 Dolphins blueprint. The scouting department remains mostly intact. They're rearranging the deck chairs, that's all.

Amen.

It continues to amaze me how people just gloss over that joke of a process.

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

Yes and I responded to someone last night who said Parcells allowed LT to get away with various things. Parcells NEVER would allow a player not to give 100% even if injured. IF he thought you were using an injury as an excuse to sit out... you would not be on the team. Would not matter who you were.

Also, for those who do not think that the locker room and team unity is important. We had the best cornerback in the game (or close to it) in Mark Haynes. The moment he turned into a locker room lawyer was when he was traded to Denver. We traded him while he was at his peak.

I don't think everyone is glossing over it.

It is what it is. It's like being a Redskins fan and knowing Snyder is not going anywhere.

In comment 14339787 bw in dc said:

Quote:

It continues to amaze me how people just gloss over that joke of a process.

BTW, I'm not sure you share these sentiments, but I think that process was so rigged that it just added to the rot spread.

And they didn't want to pay him. Had nothing to do with being a "locker room lawyer".

had turned out to be merely above-average starting NFL linemen, I'm guessing the past five years would have felt a lot different.

then that has me hopeful that the Giants FO is open to change. I was worried that they would target Daniel Jones or Drew Lock because they fit their old MO. I don't believe that Jones is worth a 1st or 2nd round pick. Lock has a lot of talent but the concerns about him between the ears worry me. If they took him in the late 1st I could get on board but I would rather take a chance on Tyree Jackson in the 3rd or 4th round.

In comment 14339818 CT Charlie said:

Quote:

had turned out to be merely above-average starting NFL linemen, I'm guessing the past five years would have felt a lot different.

You basically just said if the Giants had different players, they would be a different team. (And note the high-level of the draft picks you just listed).

, and teams ran rings around us

who always hopes for the best. I was pissed they could get Flowers or even Pugh to be an above average LT. But always thought there was a chance. I knew it was time for a change when they fired coughlin, but didn't know if firing HIM and Him alone was the right move at the time (Now I KNOW it wasn't). I had an eerily bad feeling when the next coach showed up in a sports jacket 2 sizes too big, but thought ok their trying for some continuity. I was meh about Gettleman, liking what he did in Carolina an previously with the Giants but skeptical that they 'stayed in the organization' for the 'new hire'. I was and still am meh about Shurmur. I hate his press conferences, his time management skills and his sometimes clueless offensive play calling. I like that the players seem to want to play for him, that his message has stayed consistent (at least from an outsiders view point) and he seems even keeled. I like Gettlemans go for it attitude, not afraid to make changes mid season, preseason, big moves little moves....time will tell how they DG and PS turn out. I still don't hate the team, but that feeling of something not right hasn't left and won't until they play a significant part of the season fairly successfully and with little or no controversy (Eli Sucking, Sterling tantrums, PS taking a shite time out, etc.)...Go Giants!

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Dan in the Springs... I personally think Eli isn't the same hungry player he was back in 2011.

I agree, and I think a part of the problem is that the team cannot build a culture that "hates to lose" while acting out of sentimentality, reacting to fan/media outrage, and designing a season-strategy playing homage to a single, satisfied player.

I agree completely until this idea of Gettleman "smelling the rot" and the entirety of what that entails.

I think this is ironic coming from the Giants but I think some of the thesis here in what you are saying that this rot is housed within the players and players can have rot or don't when the Giants have always preached the idea that the way they act at the top means their players will perform will perform better on the field. If they want to have this shouldn't that also absolutely have to be responsible for the converse of this?

The player blame while completely correct there is also evidence to believe is dangerously narrow which is why I don't think it's wrong to bring up largely the same scouts and the very little evidence of a buy into analytical frameworks that are being increasingly used around the league.

If there is one thing about rot and removing it effectively it is that you do have to get rid of ALL of it. What this rot very well might be is a slavish attitude towards the old ways. Ways that make them less competitive like not signing players that are past there prime. In the article on analytics about the Eagles in ESPN recently they talked about their sports science unit and knowing someone's acceleration and force is one thing i'm sure the Giants know that. It's quite another to compare these numbers vs. earlier in their career via film or even college numbers and build some kind of advanced projection of value and injury probability and win delta predictions based on the sum of these assets.

Rot and poor performance are intertwined. When you have a coach that doesn't use timeouts properly in a game and it's obvious enough that even many of the players might know and fans are booing in the stands that's a problem. When you have an owner fighting with a player via the media and in basically a 1+ year trade rumor mill that's rot, that's owner rot. When that same owner who clearly has to sign off on a benching of his 2 time SB winning QB and does so takes too much heat and completely throws his coach under the bus that's rot. Saying someone "handled it the wrong way" is straight out of the poor leader not taking responsibility handbook. You want it handled the right way? You are so personal fond of this QB, fine, do it yourself. If you delegate that delegation is on you and only you.

Finally if you look at organizations generally that develop rot in and out of sports it generally is top down not bottom up. If it's bottom up it's very easy to excise if you will. Can we as fans demand new owners? No not really.

But I don't see a really rational argument that we don't at least demand in larger force that this team starts to innovate instead of scape goating certain people or fire all the factory workers because the factory continues to not produce.

We are all in this boat together but I don't know how people wouldn't feel like we are letting this team off too easily by letting ourselves be sold on this idea that it is a player issue and removing the players fixes the rot.

"A fish rots from the head down"

the premise of your rebuttal, but we are speculating on the "injury". Regardless, OBJ seems to be one of the more competitive players in the league to me.

Shockey was competitive too, but that can work against the team. You were lamenting the lack of players who hate to loose. I personally think OBJ hates losing. A guy like Vernon, maybe not...

the team has been run and the refusal to fully lean into a rebuild. And of course, it's 99% about Eli. The discussion around when they should move or should have moved on is by leaps and bounds the most polarizing issue among fans that I've experienced in my life as a NYG fan (I'm 36).

I have no intention to re-ignite that discussion here, because this thread (in spite of its title) seems to have bred some unity in a positive outlook, and it's just not the spot for it.

We're at the point where whichever side of the discussion one has been on, we can all agree that the end is visible, so I think we'll increasingly see things being less polarized among the fans. That whole debate has lead to a lot of interesting discussions, but also a lot of discord, to put it lightly.

I'm highly encouraged by the fact that the books are wide open for 2020 and beyond. Truly an open slate. It's easier to get excited right now than it was 12 or 24 months ago. The near future is more of an unmarred ball of clay than it has been in recent years.

So I'm a weird mix of still pissed off because I don't love the 2019 plan, yet very optimistic because there's a very unencumbered future and a lot of draft capital.

Disagree, someone has to play CB. Jackrabbit is our only proven starter.

I'm not sure Shepard is a goner, especially with OBJ's departure. It opens up more opportunity for him.

This is a big year for him.

In comment 14339451 bluepepper said:

Quote:

In comment 14339439 giants#1 said: Quote: Offense Eli Engram Shepard Ellison Wheeler - for now Defense Jenkins - somewhat stunned he's survived the purge Wynn Goodson Moss Specials Rosas DeOssie Did I miss anyone? Yeah, that the Jackrabbit is still here is astonishing. Maybe they're just biding their time. Have to believe Shep is a goner now.

I think DG may just be getting a good whiff of himself......

In comment 14339643 dep026 said:

Quote:

are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said.

Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

In comment 14339775 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

RollBlue...Truly competitive players don't sit out the last four games of the year. This is what Tom Coughlin truly meant when he said injuries were a cancer (that quote has always been misinterpreted).

What Coughlin meant about injuries being a cancer is that he didn't give a shit about players being injured, he just wanted them to play. There are plenty of stories out a Carolina about TC abusing players.

OBJ has played while injured or not fully recovered. It's ridiculous to gig for not playing in meaningless games when he was clearly on 100%.

But his is all on Mara and Tisch. This started w the drip drip changes. Fired Gilbride. Then Fewell. Then TC only to hire McAdoo. 5-6 years of idiots in charge. Yeah. People should hate this team. Not the individuals but the product which is thebteam. All while keeping Reese and Ross who were not only criminally inept. They were smug and arrogant.

NONE of that disfunction occurs without Mara and Tisch being involved. And if they had any honor or courage they would apologize and take the blame. Want people to trust this organization. Be men. Those two may not be bad people per se. Just that they have SUCKED at being owners of a football team. I have very little respect for them in that regard

In comment 14339784 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 14339779 Tim in Eternal Blue said: Quote: Dave also delt with a very similiar situation that he inherited in Carolina. He got constructed a SB roster. You know what he inherited in Carolina? The nucleus of that SB roster he supposedly "constructed".

And he was then fired just before training camp because HE'S AN ASSHOLE.

They will draft a C higher than we think this year.

I think they know...they signed Pulley to give them options (he sucks though).

C needs to be addressed.

In comment 14339504 ij_reilly said:

Quote:

The team is on a different path, and that's good news. However, everyone makes mistakes, and I believe Gettleman has made some. But they have not been team-crushing mistakes, like drafting Ereck Flowers. So I'm relieved about that. What do I mean by mistakes? Well, an easy one to identify is the Stewart contract. It was a mistake. But it didn't crush the team. I'll comment on what I think is a current Gettleman mistake. I think they are making a mistake in regards to Halapio. He's a JAG coming off a broken leg. It appears they like him and it seems he is penciled in as the starting C. But I don't think this is a team-crushing mistake. He's a big dude, a hard worker, not an attitude issue at all. So he's probably not going to be very good. But he doesn't have a crushing contract, he's not on a scholarship, and his being on the team does not prevent the team from drafting his future replacement. So, I don't like what the Giants are doing at C (thus far). But the damage from this is nowhere near the level of damage the previous regime would cause with really poor personnel decisions. The previous regime made team-crushing mistakes. Those days seem to be over. I'm happy about that. This team will play hard. The talent isn't there yet (WR is still really bad, in my view). But they have some tough dudes now. And there won't be any dog peeing nonsense in the end zone, thank God. What an embarrassment!

In comment 14339793 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I don't think everyone is glossing over it. It is what it is. It's like being a Redskins fan and knowing Snyder is not going anywhere.

We agree! The Giants can’t adapt because all we do is pick from the same group of candidates. Ran a fake GM search last time and will do the same next time. Eventually this team has to make a philosophical change, but it’s evidently not now.

I can’t believe we are sitting here a year later and actually debating whether we need to run it back with Eli. It’s nonsense. It’s not good enough that we figured out the answer last year. No, we need yet another year of losing. Awesome.

It’s just a bit disappointing that the one big tradable asset they had didn’t seem to fetch enough in return in order to really supercharge the rebuild plan. Maybe expectations were too high to begin with, but it’s not like this was a draft night trade we are a month and a half out. Perhaps a better deal could have been struck. Perhaps not. Moving on

How did that work out in the end? I say let DG do his job. Time will tell.

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

lol

I don't mind people 'smelling the rot' and raging, but a few people here made it a daily rant, and frankly it has reached a point where opening some threads I knew the same cadre of complainers would be showing up. We have a right to bitch if we see the things we've seen over the last few years. I'm just sick of seeing it in every thread, day in and day out.

I'm hoping that by the time the draft is over and OT
A's start, things will have quieted down, and we'll be able to get a better feeling about what the future holds.

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs?

Did I say they were going to make the playoffs? Or did my post going over you and Les's head?

Eli and OBJ should be a package deal. Eli has been the most important player on a team that stinks. Shouldn’t his leadership be questioned along with his declining skills? No I’m not equating Eli and OBJ as players and people. But it is blind loyalty and bias to not see Eli as part of the problem.

Oh, oh, bad for business.

But great posts, I can tell you as a fan since 56, I have never hated a Giants team, but this most recent version has been hard to like.

I think that s why I was psyched by Beckham trade. Regardless of what part he had in the make up of this team, it signaled a purge that was long over due.

In comment 14339470 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14339460 Chris684 said: Quote: Not DG. Ownership was making that call as well as the one to get rid of him, which, thankfully they did. Gettleman had to sign off too, and want it Shurmur that asked for it to happen? Brutal mistake. As was drafting Barkley, frankly. But this offseason has been much better. Hopefully it keeps up.

With Beckham, the argument could be made that his talent outweighed his on-field actions and immaturity. I loved what he did as a player. I hated the 'diva' part of him. Whether trading him now was a mistake or not, I'll let history be the judge.

How about all the people that predicted disaster? Were they right?
Absolutely
Were they called negative? Yes
Were they called bad fans? Yes
Where is everyone that predicted 12-4
11/5
Playoffs?
Flowers success at RT?
Wheeler will be good?
Eli still has it?
Where are you ? But you call out the people that were right?

We are in the company of Arizona Miami Tampa
As the worst teams in the nfl
The worst teams for nearly a decade
We can’t beat a good team
With their starting QB
We can’t get our defense off the field
We have one great player at the most vulnerable position in
Football
Where are the people that praised Reese? Where are you?
Eli should retire when he wants? Tom Brady should and nobody else.

This team and franchise is not among the nfl elite anymore
It is ROTTEN
Its being torn down finally
Blame Ross blame Reese blame Mara blame all of them
We kept Reese when he should have been fired and tc moved upstairs
We deserve this because of poor leadership
Own it
Quit being blind fans unless you admit that’s what you are
I’ve been around football for my whole 60 years of life
My son and father played d1 football
This team has only one way to go now
Up
We have hit bottom and will build momentum with players fans and critics when the plan for a QB becomes evident
That’s all that’s left for heavy lifting

In comment 14340012 greek13 said:

Quote:

How about all the people that predicted disaster? Were they right? Absolutely Were they called negative? Yes Were they called bad fans? Yes Where is everyone that predicted 12-4 11/5 Playoffs? Flowers success at RT? Wheeler will be good? Eli still has it? Where are you ? But you call out the people that were right? We are in the company of Arizona Miami Tampa As the worst teams in the nfl The worst teams for nearly a decade We can’t beat a good team With their starting QB We can’t get our defense off the field We have one great player at the most vulnerable position in Football Where are the people that praised Reese? Where are you? Eli should retire when he wants? Tom Brady should and nobody else. This team and franchise is not among the nfl elite anymore It is ROTTEN Its being torn down finally Blame Ross blame Reese blame Mara blame all of them We kept Reese when he should have been fired and tc moved upstairs We deserve this because of poor leadership Own it Quit being blind fans unless you admit that’s what you are I’ve been around football for my whole 60 years of life My son and father played d1 football This team has only one way to go now Up We have hit bottom and will build momentum with players fans and critics when the plan for a QB becomes evident That’s all that’s left for heavy lifting

What is this, a poem?

In comment 14339984 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14339881 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 14339643 dep026 said: Quote: are somehow good this year and make the playoffs.....lot of posters dont show up on this site. Cause they will deny everything what they have said. Will you do the same if they don't make the playoffs? Did I say they were going to make the playoffs? Or did my post going over you and Les's head?

Just having fun since you decided to go a bit too far with your post and deserved the poke.

And no, your posts are typically well below my head.

les can speak for himself...