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What Year Does DG Commit To A True Rebuild?

Giants38 : 3/15/2019 2:27 pm
I say 2020. I think he brings back Eli next year, too, convincing us that every QB in the 2020 class is garbage, and people here eat it up like they do this year believing that this team is going to be good. Good news is with Eli back in the fold, we will be in the hunt for Trevor Lawrence in the 2021 Draft.

Gear up boys, there is going to be a whole lotta losing in the next couple years.
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With the knuckleheads gone  
JonC : 3/15/2019 2:49 pm : link
I believe we'll have a team we want to root for again, and they'll play the game the right way. It all feeds into playing well as units, limiting the mental and physical errors, and playing clean, crisp football.
The rebuild is about the QB-  
Sean : 3/15/2019 2:52 pm : link
once there is clarity at the QB position, it starts.
My god  
djm : 3/15/2019 2:52 pm : link
...
RE: The rebuild is about the QB-  
giants#1 : 3/15/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14340403 Sean said:
Quote:
once there is clarity at the QB position, it starts.


Maybe in your mind, but you can get the team foundation in place and add the QB last too. Rams just did this. Jags are hoping too. KC did this. Etc
Heck  
giants#1 : 3/15/2019 2:57 pm : link
the Eagles won a SB with Wentz basically being the last piece added.
making nate soldier  
hitdog42 : 3/15/2019 2:58 pm : link
the highest paid OL in league last year... doesn't constitute rebuilding since they got here...
they added parts to make a run last year--- they added parts that would help Eli... this year they are turning things over a bit more but with similar thoughts in mind... to try to still make a run... to try to help Eli.

the optimist in me says they will nail 3-4 draft picks again, and with the abundance of cap space next year, be able to rebuild the roster... and either this year or next find the QB of the future
RE: Detach from your emotions  
Giants38 : 3/15/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14340358 JonC said:
Quote:
and stop focusing on what you're being told via the media.

They've been tearing it down since DG took over, look at the roster.

It will take two years or more to strip it, and at least as long to restock it. While it's in progress, they're fielding the best team they can year to year and, of course, they're trying to win.

Enjoy the process, cease the insufferable whining.


Jon: They are not rebuilding while starting a 38 year old QB. And - as the Sixers learned in basketball - you need top picks to accelerate the process. In basketball itís to get stars. In football, itís to get QBs.

Well, we had the 2 pick last year, and that was a no go for a QB. Now this year, itís evidently a no go for one of the top guys. Incredibly, they seem to like Daniel Jones because he is a very poor manís Eli clone. Evidently they will only push Eli out for an Eli clone and as a way to revere him when heís gone.

You canít rebuild and want to win games at the same time. Thatís just not how it works. Now if they trade up for Murray, Iíll admit defeat on that point. They wonít though. Iím not that lucky.
RE: With the knuckleheads gone  
Thegratefulhead : 3/15/2019 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14340393 JonC said:
Quote:
I believe we'll have a team we want to root for again, and they'll play the game the right way. It all feeds into playing well as units, limiting the mental and physical errors, and playing clean, crisp football.
YES!
Guys please read between the lines  
dep026 : 3/15/2019 2:59 pm : link
With this poster.

The only rhing he posts about is Eli. Itís not about a rebuild or making smart deals. He just whines about Eli.
You have fun  
JonC : 3/15/2019 3:00 pm : link
torturing yourself. I tried.
RE: making nate soldier  
giants#1 : 3/15/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14340429 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
the highest paid OL in league last year... doesn't constitute rebuilding since they got here...
they added parts to make a run last year--- they added parts that would help Eli... this year they are turning things over a bit more but with similar thoughts in mind... to try to still make a run... to try to help Eli.

the optimist in me says they will nail 3-4 draft picks again, and with the abundance of cap space next year, be able to rebuild the roster... and either this year or next find the QB of the future


Some of these are moves they had to make regardless. The OL was complete garbage. It doesn't matter who is/was playing QB, they had to address that.
RE: You have fun  
dep026 : 3/15/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14340443 JonC said:
Quote:
torturing yourself. I tried.


Heís started about 100 threads this offseason about everyone here wants Eli long term. Just weird.
RE: ...  
Boy Cord : 3/15/2019 3:03 pm : link
In comment 14340318 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If you think jtgiants has good contacts, they insist they are not rebuilding.


If the front office and coaching staff think they are in the process of reloading and not rebuilding, the Giants are in deep trouble. This is a tear down and the next two drafts and 2020 FA are the keys to success.

Worst WR corps in the NFL and the defense doesnít appear to be much better.
giants#1  
YANKEE28 : 3/15/2019 3:03 pm : link
Probably the best post I have seen all year.

You are EXACTLY right. Eli is our QB in 2019. We have a ton of draft picks to fix areas OTHER than QB.

Use them wisely, keep taking the true BPA and worry about the QB situation in 2020.
RE: making nate soldier  
JonC : 3/15/2019 3:03 pm : link
In comment 14340429 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
the highest paid OL in league last year... doesn't constitute rebuilding since they got here...
they added parts to make a run last year--- they added parts that would help Eli... this year they are turning things over a bit more but with similar thoughts in mind... to try to still make a run... to try to help Eli.

the optimist in me says they will nail 3-4 draft picks again, and with the abundance of cap space next year, be able to rebuild the roster... and either this year or next find the QB of the future


I don't disagree they're caught between one or the other if we're looking at in terms of black or white, Eli goes or we're not rebuilding type of perspective. But, how much of the roster has been turned over so far, 80%+
RE: Dear god  
Giants38 : 3/15/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14340372 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
I have only been aware of Giants38 posts today adn already your act is getting old. They are retooling, rebuilding whatever you want to call it already. The fact that OBJ is gone for picks adn a player says that. The fact that in the last year Harrison, Apple, Flowers, Hart, Collins, JPP, Pugh, Richburg etc are all gone says they are rebuilding/retooling.

Your act is a one card hand, Eli is the reason they are not rebuilding. Somebody has to play QB this year regardless. A Young QB needs a vet to show the way if you want to follow KC's way from last two seasons (draft a guy and sit behind vet). The Giants didn't draft a QB last year because Barkley was considered that good. He won ROY so I guess he is fucking good..

We have 12 picks in the draft and FA is still in session... Give it time first but, just because you rebuild doesn't mean you can't try and win too!


I donít care what you think of my act. Are my posts any dumber than those people who foolishly believe we are winning 7-9 games this year? You may not like my posts, but that doesnít mean they are any more off base than most on this site. Please tell me what Iíve said that is so wrong.

I want Eli off this team. Maybe the saddest part of all this - in addition to DG dragging down a once proud franchise - is the now nationwide beating Eli is taking. For all of you who really love Eli, how could you want to see him go out this way? To see him mocked by everyone everywhere? To see his record go below .500. To watch a guy who was once a candidate for a first ballot HOF now need to fight to get his way in. All because fans canít let go of the past. I want you to think about that for a second before you seek to run it back so quickly.
If it takes two or more years  
mattyblue : 3/15/2019 3:05 pm : link
to rebuild Gettleman is pretty awful. I am not talking about building the Patriots dynasty here, but if it takes Gettleman a total of 4 years to get to a competitive team thatís awful. Certain franchises, basically the AFC East minus the Patriots, manage to suck for decades. Look what Dorsey did in 15 months. You canít burn all the rookie contracts from last year trying to figure out how to play decent football. In two or more years from now, Shurmur will without a doubt be gone if things continue as they have. So then does it take longer because you need a new coach?
RE: RE: making nate soldier  
hitdog42 : 3/15/2019 3:08 pm : link
In comment 14340453 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14340429 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


the highest paid OL in league last year... doesn't constitute rebuilding since they got here...
they added parts to make a run last year--- they added parts that would help Eli... this year they are turning things over a bit more but with similar thoughts in mind... to try to still make a run... to try to help Eli.

the optimist in me says they will nail 3-4 draft picks again, and with the abundance of cap space next year, be able to rebuild the roster... and either this year or next find the QB of the future



I don't disagree they're caught between one or the other if we're looking at in terms of black or white, Eli goes or we're not rebuilding type of perspective. But, how much of the roster has been turned over so far, 80%+


fair and dont disagree
RE: Guys please read between the lines  
Giants38 : 3/15/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14340441 dep026 said:
Quote:
With this poster.

The only rhing he posts about is Eli. Itís not about a rebuild or making smart deals. He just whines about Eli.


Thatís what you donít get. I ďwhineĒ about Eli BECAUSE of what it signifies. It signifies that this organization has no direction. The vets in Carolina despised DG there too. Was he getting rid of the rot there?

This team needs a new direction. We arenít doing that until we move on from Eli. You can call me what you want. If you donít see that, too, then youíre as naive as they come.
Why does  
mattyblue : 3/15/2019 3:13 pm : link
Eli need to be brought up and argued about when talking about a rebuild?
RE: Detach from your emotions  
joeinpa : 3/15/2019 3:13 pm : link
In comment 14340358 JonC said:
Quote:
and stop focusing on what you're being told via the media.

They've been tearing it down since DG took over, look at the roster.

It will take two years or more to strip it, and at least as long to restock it. While it's in progress, they're fielding the best team they can year to year and, of course, they're trying to win.

Enjoy the process, cease the insufferable whining.


Exactly
G38 -  
Diver_Down : 3/15/2019 3:15 pm : link
For you it is clear, Eli must be gone. Fine you are entitled to your opinion. But an earlier comment in this thread by you outlined a few prospects. You want a specific type. Any QB outside of your defined ideal is met with derision. How is that appropriate? You want Eli gone, but don't want to accept any QB outside of your ideals.
RE: RE: You have fun  
Thegratefulhead : 3/15/2019 3:17 pm : link
In comment 14340448 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14340443 JonC said:


Quote:


torturing yourself. I tried.



Heís started about 100 threads this offseason about everyone here wants Eli long term. Just weird.
To be fair, Strawman runs rampant on this site both in favor and against Eli.
you're aways rebuilding  
bc4life : 3/15/2019 3:20 pm : link
it's just a difference in urgency and speed
If weíre ďout of itĒ by the trade deadline  
The_Boss : 3/15/2019 3:24 pm : link
He may finally see the error of his ways and do a firesale 2.0. Theyíll ride Eli off into the sunset and then take it apart.
RE: G38 -  
Giants38 : 3/15/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14340476 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
For you it is clear, Eli must be gone. Fine you are entitled to your opinion. But an earlier comment in this thread by you outlined a few prospects. You want a specific type. Any QB outside of your defined ideal is met with derision. How is that appropriate? You want Eli gone, but don't want to accept any QB outside of your ideals.


Thatís not what I said. I donít have a specific ďtypeĒ. I like Haskins - a pocket passer - and Murray - a much smaller QB who can do it all. To be clear, it is aggravating to me that the Giants seem blindly committed to Eli for the sake of it - not because it is what is best for the team.

But fine. I wonít start anymore threads or draft anymore posts. Iíll let you all chime in about how good the Giants will be this season as, in your heads, we fight for that PO spot.
RE: RE: Guys please read between the lines  
dep026 : 3/15/2019 3:28 pm : link
In comment 14340467 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14340441 dep026 said:


Quote:


With this poster.

The only rhing he posts about is Eli. Itís not about a rebuild or making smart deals. He just whines about Eli.



Thatís what you donít get. I ďwhineĒ about Eli BECAUSE of what it signifies. It signifies that this organization has no direction. The vets in Carolina despised DG there too. Was he getting rid of the rot there?

This team needs a new direction. We arenít doing that until we move on from Eli. You can call me what you want. If you donít see that, too, then youíre as naive as they come.


Thereís no direction? You mean getting rid of all the malcontents and players who are more known for their social media takes than their playmaking abilities? You mean rebuilding on the OL and DL with a tremendous RB?

Thereís a direction and itís plain as day to see. Itís been apparent since DG took over. You may not like it and it may not work but if you stop crying about Eli every day, you will see it.
team has direction Gettleman tells you he's going to do  
bc4life : 3/15/2019 3:30 pm : link
First major quote - "We have to fix the Oline". Few misssteps but they are a right tackle away form the horrendous Oline from two years ago.

This year's major quote was about the failure of defense to make stops. competent safety tandem, got rid of Vernon talented but overpaid player. and the draft will defeinitely be front 7 heavy.

he did say he wans't goin to trade Odell, but things change. People take the wedding vows and the divorce rate in the country is about 50%. I don't understand why people blast DG for changing his mind.
RE: RE: G38 -  
Diver_Down : 3/15/2019 3:32 pm : link
In comment 14340517 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14340476 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


For you it is clear, Eli must be gone. Fine you are entitled to your opinion. But an earlier comment in this thread by you outlined a few prospects. You want a specific type. Any QB outside of your defined ideal is met with derision. How is that appropriate? You want Eli gone, but don't want to accept any QB outside of your ideals.



Thatís not what I said. I donít have a specific ďtypeĒ. I like Haskins - a pocket passer - and Murray - a much smaller QB who can do it all. To be clear, it is aggravating to me that the Giants seem blindly committed to Eli for the sake of it - not because it is what is best for the team.

But fine. I wonít start anymore threads or draft anymore posts. Iíll let you all chime in about how good the Giants will be this season as, in your heads, we fight for that PO spot.


Are you sure? I don't want to have to copy/paste your words to prove my point. If you are being honest with yourself, you are critical of Jones because he looks like Eli.

That is contradictory to your intent of this thread. A rebuild only starts when Eli is gone. So if Eli is gone and Jones is next in line, do we have to wait for you to like the QB in order to classify it as a "rebuild".
RE: RE: RE: G38 -  
Giants38 : 3/15/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14340545 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14340517 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14340476 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


For you it is clear, Eli must be gone. Fine you are entitled to your opinion. But an earlier comment in this thread by you outlined a few prospects. You want a specific type. Any QB outside of your defined ideal is met with derision. How is that appropriate? You want Eli gone, but don't want to accept any QB outside of your ideals.



Thatís not what I said. I donít have a specific ďtypeĒ. I like Haskins - a pocket passer - and Murray - a much smaller QB who can do it all. To be clear, it is aggravating to me that the Giants seem blindly committed to Eli for the sake of it - not because it is what is best for the team.

But fine. I wonít start anymore threads or draft anymore posts. Iíll let you all chime in about how good the Giants will be this season as, in your heads, we fight for that PO spot.



Are you sure? I don't want to have to copy/paste your words to prove my point. If you are being honest with yourself, you are critical of Jones because he looks like Eli.

That is contradictory to your intent of this thread. A rebuild only starts when Eli is gone. So if Eli is gone and Jones is next in line, do we have to wait for you to like the QB in order to classify it as a "rebuild".


Iím not critical of Jones because he looks like Eli. Iím critical of Jones because of how he plays. If he had Eliís talent, Iíd be all for taking him. I think this team is going to take Jones in deference to Eli. Itís more about Eli. Eli has a relationship with him. Eli likes him. Ití continues to be all about Eli with a Jones selection. We need a clean break from that nonsense.
People are ridiculous when talking  
mattyblue : 3/15/2019 3:46 pm : link
about Eli, some defend him endlessly, some crucify him at every chance. I have been guilty of it myself at times. I really think people should try to leave that alone until next season. The decision appears to be made. I find Alex Tanney on this roster way more annoying than Eli. Try to trade Lauretta if you want, if not and Ei gets hurt play Lauretta they fucking drafted him. I would actually them rather play Davis Webb and I donít actually know why, I just feel like Lauletta has no shot in the NFL. Webb doesnít either probably. Heís just more interesting. Tanney whatís the point? He might as well be on the staff and not the roster.
No SUCH THING AS REBUILD IN NFL  
Foobarbaz : 3/15/2019 3:50 pm : link
Players have a 4 year contracts, only 1 or 2 players are good from the draft....so in 5 years you maybe have 6 players good....they will want huge contacts like odell wanted....
NFL is win NOW. Browns rebuilded their team in 2 years...they went 1-15, 0-16 then boom now they are a playoff team. This isnt the 60s anymore, rebuild is a year or two max, look at eagles and pats they rebuild in a year or two max
I Believe This is Code For "Dumping Eli"  
Bernie : 3/15/2019 4:03 pm : link
apparently rebuilding begins and ends with that singular move.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/15/2019 4:06 pm : link
There are no true "rebuilds" in the NFL  
Chris684 : 3/15/2019 4:20 pm : link
but what the Giants are doing with their roster is as close as you'll come.

For the dummies, think of it as chewing gum and walking at the same time.

Objective A: Turn over as much of the roster as possible, ridding the team of malcontents or players you still have to make a financial decision or commitment on but don't want to.

Objective B: Within that, try to field the best team you can and win as many games as possible.

RE: There are no true  
Foobarbaz : 3/15/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14340633 Chris684 said:
Quote:
but what the Giants are doing with their roster is as close as you'll come.

For the dummies, think of it as chewing gum and walking at the same time.

Objective A: Turn over as much of the roster as possible, ridding the team of malcontents or players you still have to make a financial decision or commitment on but don't want to.

Objective B: Within that, try to field the best team you can and win as many games as possible.


Gettleman is that you? Shouldn't you be at bingo night
Yes its all about Eli  
twostepgiants : 3/15/2019 5:04 pm : link
80% of tbe roster is nothing

From 2013 to 2017 we changed every single player but Eli and DeOssie. We changed all coaches, management

Same results.

How can you possibly talk about a rebuild without the singke mosy impirtant position in all of sports?

Its like saying you changed a house becsuse you painted and put in new carpets and furniture. What difference does it make if you have a rotten foundation?
RE: RE: Guys please read between the lines  
Reb8thVA : 3/15/2019 5:34 pm : link
In comment 14340467 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14340441 dep026 said:


Quote:


With this poster.

The only rhing he posts about is Eli. Itís not about a rebuild or making smart deals. He just whines about Eli.



Thatís what you donít get. I ďwhineĒ about Eli BECAUSE of what it signifies. It signifies that this organization has no direction. The vets in Carolina despised DG there too. Was he getting rid of the rot there?

This team needs a new direction. We arenít doing that until we move on from Eli. You can call me what you want. If you donít see that, too, then youíre as naive as they come.


We need to start a BBI Lexicon.

ďWhen are we going to start a true rebuild?Ē really means, ďĒWhen are we going to dump Eli?Ē

ďThe Giants have no plan or direction!Ē Really means The Giants have a plan, itís just not my plan!Ē

Iím sure there are more we could come up with.
I agree  
montanagiant : 3/15/2019 6:33 pm : link
You need to get a new act Giants38
RE: RE: RE: RE: G38 -  
GFAN52 : 3/15/2019 6:39 pm : link
In comment 14340579 Giants38 said:
Quote:
In comment 14340545 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14340517 Giants38 said:


Quote:


In comment 14340476 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


For you it is clear, Eli must be gone. Fine you are entitled to your opinion. But an earlier comment in this thread by you outlined a few prospects. You want a specific type. Any QB outside of your defined ideal is met with derision. How is that appropriate? You want Eli gone, but don't want to accept any QB outside of your ideals.



Thatís not what I said. I donít have a specific ďtypeĒ. I like Haskins - a pocket passer - and Murray - a much smaller QB who can do it all. To be clear, it is aggravating to me that the Giants seem blindly committed to Eli for the sake of it - not because it is what is best for the team.

But fine. I wonít start anymore threads or draft anymore posts. Iíll let you all chime in about how good the Giants will be this season as, in your heads, we fight for that PO spot.



Are you sure? I don't want to have to copy/paste your words to prove my point. If you are being honest with yourself, you are critical of Jones because he looks like Eli.

That is contradictory to your intent of this thread. A rebuild only starts when Eli is gone. So if Eli is gone and Jones is next in line, do we have to wait for you to like the QB in order to classify it as a "rebuild".



Iím not critical of Jones because he looks like Eli. Iím critical of Jones because of how he plays. If he had Eliís talent, Iíd be all for taking him. I think this team is going to take Jones in deference to Eli. Itís more about Eli. Eli has a relationship with him. Eli likes him. Ití continues to be all about Eli with a Jones selection. We need a clean break from that nonsense.




RE: Yes its all about Eli  
eli4life : 3/15/2019 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14340731 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
80% of tbe roster is nothing

From 2013 to 2017 we changed every single player but Eli and DeOssie. We changed all coaches, management

Same results.

How can you possibly talk about a rebuild without the singke mosy impirtant position in all of sports?

Its like saying you changed a house becsuse you painted and put in new carpets and furniture. What difference does it make if you have a rotten foundation?


Thatís it you figured it out..... itís DeOssieís fault😂😂
RE: Detach from your emotions  
eli4life : 3/15/2019 6:57 pm : link
In comment 14340358 JonC said:
Quote:
and stop focusing on what you're being told via the media.

They've been tearing it down since DG took over, look at the roster.

It will take two years or more to strip it, and at least as long to restock it. While it's in progress, they're fielding the best team they can year to year and, of course, they're trying to win.

Enjoy the process, cease the insufferable whining.


Come on itís more fun with the pitchforks and torches
Theyíre certainly purging the roster  
UberAlias : 3/15/2019 7:08 pm : link
Of bad contracts and the locker room of bad eggs. But on the rebuilding side, sticking with your 37 year old QB and building offense around RB (and signing a WR to a massive contract) is not your typical rebuild formula. Despite the roster overhaul, there does appear to be a reluctance to cut the cord with #10.
RE: ...  
mrvax : 3/15/2019 7:29 pm : link
In comment 14340318 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If you think jtgiants has good contacts, they insist they are not rebuilding.


With a 90% roster turnover so far (from Reese & Co.) it is a rebuild no matter what they call it.
RE: Detach from your emotions  
mrvax : 3/15/2019 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14340358 JonC said:
Quote:
and stop focusing on what you're being told via the media.

They've been tearing it down since DG took over, look at the roster.

It will take two years or more to strip it, and at least as long to restock it. While it's in progress, they're fielding the best team they can year to year and, of course, they're trying to win.

Enjoy the process, cease the insufferable whining.


Good post. The OP seems to hate DG because he didn't pick Giants34's favorite shiny new QB.
RE: RE: making nate soldier  
Enzo : 3/15/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14340453 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14340429 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


the highest paid OL in league last year... doesn't constitute rebuilding since they got here...
they added parts to make a run last year--- they added parts that would help Eli... this year they are turning things over a bit more but with similar thoughts in mind... to try to still make a run... to try to help Eli.

the optimist in me says they will nail 3-4 draft picks again, and with the abundance of cap space next year, be able to rebuild the roster... and either this year or next find the QB of the future



I don't disagree they're caught between one or the other if we're looking at in terms of black or white, Eli goes or we're not rebuilding type of perspective. But, how much of the roster has been turned over so far, 80%+

turning the roster over and replacing what was there with young players is rebuilding. Bringing in guys like Solder, Stewert, Bethea, Tate, Ogletree is something else. Half measures....
RE: Detach from your emotions  
JOrthman : 3/15/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14340358 JonC said:
Quote:
and stop focusing on what you're being told via the media.

They've been tearing it down since DG took over, look at the roster.

It will take two years or more to strip it, and at least as long to restock it. While it's in progress, they're fielding the best team they can year to year and, of course, they're trying to win.

Enjoy the process, cease the insufferable whining.


Jon, I don't know why more people don't get this.
Enjoy the process?  
twostepgiants : 3/15/2019 8:46 pm : link
What has been enjoyable about any of this?
Make a Run?  
Doomster : 3/15/2019 11:26 pm : link
Is that anything like this:

DG has gutted this team in his two offseasons here  
PatersonPlank : 3/15/2019 11:37 pm : link
Its going to be a completely different, younger team. People just focusing on Eli are missing the point. He is providing stability while everything is changing all around him. Once its done the next QB is plugged in, which could be next season if we can get Rosen or another guy. Putting a rookie QB in now could do more damage than good, to both the QB and team morale.
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