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The one thing that keeps nagging me on the OBJ trade

jamison884 : 3/16/2019 5:52 am
I wrote a much longer and angrier post the day of the trade, but I ultimately decided against posing it because it added nothing new. This post is basically the same, as in it won't add much new, but this is my way of venting before ultimately moving on, so please just give me this one and then I can stop thinking about it. I don't post often, but I had to on this.

Let us take a journey to the day of the trade.

You're DG, and you're on the phone with Dorsey. You've laid out getting the obvious pick at 17, you're swapping your picks back in relation to the prior Vernon trade, you're getting a mid-level NFL starting safety that has some serious tackling concerns, but your coaches probably like his upside.

Then you're working on the final piece of the negotiation. For me, that would have been the 2020 Brown's first rounder, especially since they're likely to have a low pick next year, somewhere in the mid 20's perhaps. You're trading a top-3 player at his position under contract in exchange for a gamble that you can get anyone near his value at pick 17 (which is a bad bet), so that certainly warrants another opportunity to replace his talent/value next year with a player picked around 24. Maybe both of those picks combined come close to equaling OBJ's talent.

But for whatever reason, DG is so set on this trade, that he doesn't get that second 1st rounder. Or even a 2nd rounder this year or next year, which would have been much more bearable of a trade to most of us on here, I'm sure.

This ultimately means they finally come to terms on a third rounder this year. I think it's a shitty place to come together, but fine, I'm over it fairly quickly.

Then here's the part where DG looks like he got played like a peice of shit chump of a GM. I'm positive DG asked Dorsey for the Browns 3rd pick at #80 overall (how could you not?). Dorsey apparently responded: no way, but I'll give you the last pick of the third at #95.

At this point, the NYG have the leverage. They're clearly getting the shittier end of the deal because they want OBJ out immediately, in fact, so fast that it appears they may not have even had serious discussions with other potential trade partners (despite the whole "you don't extend a player if you're going to trade him"...blah blah blah).

How in the world, does DG ultimately just accept the #95 pick, versus saying "No deal, call me back when you're ready to be reasonable and complete this trade with the #80 spot." and then promptly end the call.

Does anyone here honestly think the Browns would turn down this entire trade which could put them into the 2019 playoffs, all over a 15-spot difference in the third round when they're clearly winning on this deal at any angle you look at it?

In my humble opinion, the fact DG accepted #95 instead of #80 makes him look like the biggest bitch of a GM in the entire league. And no, I don't care if that's what it said on any stupid draft value trade card or any obscure precedent from an entirely different trade.

If you have conceded so much as-is to give the Browns a discounted OBJ contract with $20m straight off the top already paid by the NYG, and you can't get a selection 15 picks higher in the third round? What? Are you kidding me? You call yourself a GM? A negotiator, a deal maker?

Just disgusting...
I don't disagree.  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 3/16/2019 6:09 am : link
You make a valid point.
Mid level safety with tackling concerns? Have you seen him play?  
George from PA : 3/16/2019 6:09 am : link
I suspect you will be pleasently surprised and he will be our punt returner
The piece he coveted want the second pick...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/16/2019 6:09 am : link
It was Peppers, according to all accounts, and the Browns from all accounts did not want to give him up.

He walked away from the deal and the Browns folded and gave up Peppers.
Agreed Jamison  
PhilSimms15 : 3/16/2019 6:10 am : link
We can never know what’s in the hearts of men, but I believe DG desperately wanted to trade Odell that he said yes to that deal too quickly. We have no evidence but your theory makes all the sense in the world.

There is no way Dorsey kills the deal if DG walks away letting the Browns know they need the higher third round pick to close. And if they didn’t give it, DG should have walked. Browns most likely would have come back to the table.

In my opinion thus far Gettleman has been a huge failure. His one claim is that last year’s draft was solid but if you are in the camp that they should have gone QB rather than Barkley, then even that draft was a failure.

Giants are riding with Eli again in 2019/20. With this roster, I can’t imagine the Giants winning more than 5 or 6. And then they are back in the draft, probably picking 10 down or 11 and too far to get a franchise QB.

So we ride with Eli again in 2020-21. It’s a bad cycle.
Guys, I am no insider but DG walked away several timed  
George from PA : 3/16/2019 6:19 am : link
Last year

Somewhere between the combine and the OV trade....as OBJ must have been in discussions.

Jamison disregards Pepper as "a midlevel safety with tackling concern".....i view him as an upgrade over Collin in coverage and pretty equal against the run. Peppers is much faster and bonofide 1st rounder....with 3 years under a draft control contract.

The 17th pick and Peppers are the prize
Peppers has tackling issues???  
gtt350 : 3/16/2019 6:23 am : link
he's a tackling machine
And getting back their 4th  
George from PA : 3/16/2019 6:24 am : link
From the OV trade....

I am stilling holding judgement on trade until i see what we get in draft....but from a value stand point....it is a decent haul.

Compared to Coopee, AB.....and OBJ does not have a cheap contract.
In Bettcher ‘s defense  
Dave on the UWS : 3/16/2019 6:24 am : link
Peppers could be a Pro Bowler. His skill set fits very well.
The market was what the market  
section125 : 3/16/2019 6:30 am : link
was. Yes DG wanted OBJ gone, he wanted him gone last year. I'm a huge OBJ fan, but behind the scenes he was a PIA. Anyway, the OPs dismissal of Peppers as some throw in is his mistake. Peppers takes Collins position and is apparently an upgrade.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.
I'll give the same response I gave the last time someone asked this  
USAF NYG Fan : 3/16/2019 6:34 am : link
Your complaining about a 15 spot difference stating that since it's only 15 spots so the Browns would have eventually gave them up for the trade. Your argument already diminishes the importance of those 15 spots yet your upset that the Giants couldn't move up ..... 15 more spots believing it to be very important.

Why are 15 spots more important for the Giants than they are for the Browns?

As it stands now. The Giants will be getting to pick 3 times before the Browns even get to their 1st pick. If the Browns gave the Giants the 80th pick instead of the 95th pick they would have had only 1 pick smack dab in the middle of the 1st 3 rounds (since the 95th is close to being a 4th rounder). I'd argue the Browns had more draft capital to lose than the Giants had to gain.
Can we evaluate this trade  
djstat : 3/16/2019 6:52 am : link
In 2 years?
I think there is much that went on we don’t know about.  
Giant John : 3/16/2019 6:52 am : link
Rumors spread. Teams hear things. I thing the league knew he was a head case which undermined the Giants demand.
Yes this is speculation but I honestly feel there is some truth to it. Giants decided they had enough. So they took what they could get. I’m ok with the trade.
Didn't they make up more than 15 spots....  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 3/16/2019 6:57 am : link
...when they were no longer giving up their 4th for the Browns's 5th?
Sometimes, if you really want to rid yourself of a perceived  
Big Blue '56 : 3/16/2019 7:08 am : link
problem, you push, but not TOO HARD and decide which is more important-pushing to the point of having a deal blow up entirely or capitulating and being happy with what you managed to negotiate.
Stopped reading at comments on safety  
ZogZerg : 3/16/2019 7:09 am : link
You are obviously clueless
Yes,we got the lesser of their 3rds  
UberAlias : 3/16/2019 7:14 am : link
But we also undid the swapping of 4th and 5th in the Vernon deal.

IMO, if they like Peppers as much as reported, DG did well.
I hear what you guys are saying and I'm not dismissing it  
jamison884 : 3/16/2019 7:19 am : link
And I'll be honest, I don't know much about the safety, I just read that he had tackling issues from some pundit, but I do agree he increases our capabilities in coverage especially compared to Collins.

If you want to strip all nuance away from my post and the replies to my post, it comes down to this: did we NEED that 15-spot difference in the 3rd round? No...but you can't convince me that DG failed in getting the #80 spot because I simply don't see the Browns calling off the trade over 15 spots.

In other words, DG failed in finding maximum value in the trade based on realistic expectations and real-world realistic variables. I find it just absolutely inconveivable that the Browns would cancel the trade if we demanded the #80 pick, and if I'm wrong and the Browns would refuse the trade merely based on the #80 pick, then call their bluff and call off the trade to find a new trading partner. I'm betting Dorsey gives DG a call a few hours later and simply says "#80 is yours, let's get this done."

I don't think I can be convinced otherwise, and as minor as this single aspect may be under any circumstance, and even if this trade turns out to be a masterstroke of genius by DG, it's STILL a sign of weakness and incompetence that he couldn't get a 15-spot bump in a trade where I haven't seen/read a single NFL analyst stating the NYG won this trade from looking at it in immediate terms. One, two, three years from now the NYG may have certainly won this trade, but right now, I just don't see it. So, my overall point is, we all know in hindsight how any draft position can produce a hall of fame player, but the higher the draft spot you have, the slightly better chance you'll land a quality player.

It's merely about leaving an attainable asset on the table. DG folded over 15 spots in the draft while he had the better hand (in respect to leverage, as the Browns had more to gain from this trade than the NYG in the immediate future/2019 season), and I'm not satisfied with the job he did. And this isn't even evaluating the nuances of the remainder of the trade, just those 15 spots.

Thank you guys for some reasonable discussion and replies; it's appreciated.
DG  
TommyWiseau : 3/16/2019 7:39 am : link
Wanted Peppers, Browns said GTFO. DG walked away.. Browns eventually came crawling back and agreed to send Peppers. DG wanted a player now not a pick more then a year from now in 2020, one that could grow in the defense and be a leader and he got it in Peppers.
Of all the things to get worked up over  
ron mexico : 3/16/2019 7:39 am : link
Pick 80 vs 95 seems fairly insignificant

2020 #2 would have been my preference as a hedge against not getting a QB this year.
" I don't know much about the safety......"  
JohnB : 3/16/2019 7:43 am : link
"In other words, DG failed in finding maximum value in the trade..."

How can you say DG didn't get maximum value when you yourself stated you don't know what DG got? If you are just counting the draft picks in exchange for OBJ, then you have can make your case. Or if you have great knowledge of Peppers, you can make your case. But if you don't know much about him, your own line of reasoning fails because you don't know what DG got in return for OBJ.
right now the 17th and 95th picks and the return of the 4th round pick  
Giants61 : 3/16/2019 7:46 am : link
only have a perceived value. As Djstat indicates wait to see the actual benefits of the drafted individuals to add to the known facts about Zeitler and Peppers. Plus the team needs to get out of, and/or further into cap hell
I believe...  
GeorgeAdams33 : 3/16/2019 7:49 am : link
that you are just venting. Take a deep breath, accept this, and move on. We didn't have a 3rd round pick so we weren't getting too picky about it. There were 30 other teams that could've offered us more. We took the best available deal and it was worth it to the organization to move this player. What matters here is how we spend the picks we did acquire.
RE: Didn't they make up more than 15 spots....  
5BowlsSoon : 3/16/2019 8:29 am : link
In comment 14341490 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:
Quote:
...when they were no longer giving up their 4th for the Browns's 5th?


Absolutely....not sure why people omit this little detail. I guess they want to hide it because it doesn’t support their agenda.
Rumors we’ve been looking to trade him since the clmbime  
UConn4523 : 3/16/2019 8:30 am : link
my guess is this was the only package even close to considering. And if that’s the case you don’t get picky on which 3rd rounder. For all you know we got them to come up from a 4th.

Being bugged about something like this means you are looking for a reason to hate it.
I’m ok with the deal  
tony71 : 3/16/2019 8:36 am : link
You got to figure OBJ finished the year on the sideline, so that was a question mark , goes to Cleveland and now wants to redo his contract.. we got rid of OV as well.. so not only did we get picks, and former 1st round players who are pretty good supposedly, we freed up a ton of cap space for next year. 120 mil or so is not something to sneeze about. After the clusterfuck of the Jerry Reese era, I knew it wasn’t going to turn around in a year or two. Anyone who thought that has unrealistic expectations. The team was so screwed with bad draft choices and over paid free agents that there was no way DG coulda fixed it in one year. I said before it’s going to take 3 years to get this team set up with the GM and Coach. That is all due to the sucky ass draft picks we had.. can’t build a team with free agents and expect it to last for years with only one player that works out in the draft a year..
RE: Mid level safety with tackling concerns? Have you seen him play?  
ajr2456 : 3/16/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14341468 George from PA said:
Quote:
I suspect you will be pleasently surprised and he will be our punt returner


Peppers does miss a lot of tackles
You also have to take into account the possibility  
UConn4523 : 3/16/2019 8:39 am : link
of Beckham going public and decreasing his trade value further. Sometimes you have to jump on a deal before things get worse. There’s two sides to this trade with many variables.
RE: The market was what the market  
markky : 3/16/2019 9:01 am : link
In comment 14341476 section125 said:
Quote:
was. Yes DG wanted OBJ gone, he wanted him gone last year. I'm a huge OBJ fan, but behind the scenes he was a PIA. Anyway, the OPs dismissal of Peppers as some throw in is his mistake. Peppers takes Collins position and is apparently an upgrade.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.


And freed up enough salary to sign another player. So it's really 4 players plus swapping a 5th for a 4th. In the NFL, I'll take this.
RE: RE: The market was what the market  
ajr2456 : 3/16/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14341610 markky said:
Quote:
In comment 14341476 section125 said:


Quote:


was. Yes DG wanted OBJ gone, he wanted him gone last year. I'm a huge OBJ fan, but behind the scenes he was a PIA. Anyway, the OPs dismissal of Peppers as some throw in is his mistake. Peppers takes Collins position and is apparently an upgrade.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.



And freed up enough salary to sign another player. So it's really 4 players plus swapping a 5th for a 4th. In the NFL, I'll take this.


Didn’t we only save like $3 million?
jamison884...There is so much we don't know. Overall as others  
Blue21 : 3/16/2019 9:18 am : link
have said I think we did ok on the deal. I've been a fan for over 60 years. The Giants have disapointed me a lot. This isn't one of them. I haven't lost a second of sleep over this. Let it go. A 1 and a (late 3) our 4 back we thought we gave up and a very good Safety we definitely needed. Fine by me. Look forward not behind.
You know what still bothers me about this trade?  
dep026 : 3/16/2019 9:20 am : link
Nothing. He is gone and never coming back. Time to move on. Lets start cheering for the guys who are actually on the team.
He basically wanted to wash his hands with players  
Shockwave : 3/16/2019 9:23 am : link
Who act like little bitches and be done with it. It’s onlh going to get worse with this generation of menwems
So you are having trouble getting over  
Mike from Ohio : 3/16/2019 9:26 am : link
Getting pick #95 in the third round as opposed to #80 in the third round? 15 spots?

That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.
RE: Mid level safety with tackling concerns? Have you seen him play?  
Beer Man : 3/16/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14341468 George from PA said:
Quote:
I suspect you will be pleasently surprised and he will be our punt returner
+1. He may turn out to be a better value to this team than Collins was. Of course that means he will also fly the coup when his contract is up.
RE: Mid level safety with tackling concerns? Have you seen him play?  
Beer Man : 3/16/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14341468 George from PA said:
Quote:
I suspect you will be pleasently surprised and he will be our punt returner
+1
RE: So you are having trouble getting over  
lecky : 3/16/2019 9:49 am : link
In comment 14341655 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Getting pick #95 in the third round as opposed to #80 in the third round? 15 spots?

That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.


Couldn't agree more.
I suggest you refocus your anger at Reese and Ross  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/16/2019 9:50 am : link
for picking a flashy hood ornament player over the undersized DT who just this past year earned his second consecutive DPOY award, the 3rd player in league history to do so, after Lawrence Taylor and JJ Watt. That player competed in the SB this year...

Be upset that the long time ID of the NY Football Giants was hijacked by the Reese regime and thankful that DG is bringing it back. Stop fretting over the little things and start digging the big picture.
RE: So you are having trouble getting over  
jamison884 : 3/16/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14341655 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Getting pick #95 in the third round as opposed to #80 in the third round? 15 spots?

That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.


Not in a literal manner. It's more of a matter of perception. Given all of the many variables of the trade, I imagine DG wouldn't have wanted the 80th pick and in the grand scheme of things, the 80th pick isn't a big deal.

However, showing everyone in the NFL he couldn't get such a slight upgrade to the deal as a whole either means he was out-negotiated bu Dorsey or didn't see to get every last ounce of value from the deal.

It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG

I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.

It's not like I'm losing sleep over this or thinking about it several times a day, just whenever I visit the forums here or read a general article on free agency and trades hat mentions the deal.
*DG would have  
jamison884 : 3/16/2019 9:56 am : link
Typo
Jamison  
Gregorio : 3/16/2019 10:40 am : link
Following your thoughts on this... by DG not gaining those 15 spots in the 3rd round, he was weak and got the worse of the deal. Did you feel any better the next day, when reports came out that swapping pick 155 for 132 was also part of the trade? That’s a net gain of 22 spots.

I think you’re looking for something to take Gettleman to task on.

RE: The market was what the market  
Red Right Hand : 3/16/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14341476 section125 said:
Quote:

In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick AND SWAPPED A 4TH FOR A 5TH . That is quite a haul.
and that's where you got the few slots back the OP is upset about. We now have 2 picks in the 4th rd and 3 in the 5th.We got our second 4th rounder back in the Odell trade. Undermines the entire premise of the thread, something the OP left out. And we climbed back into the 3rd. we picked up way more spots moving back into the 4th than we lost out on not picking up 15 slots. We moved back up quite bit, more than 15 spots.
RE: RE: So you are having trouble getting over  
UConn4523 : 3/16/2019 11:23 am : link
In comment 14341717 jamison884 said:
Quote:
In comment 14341655 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Getting pick #95 in the third round as opposed to #80 in the third round? 15 spots?

That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.



Not in a literal manner. It's more of a matter of perception. Given all of the many variables of the trade, I imagine DG wouldn't have wanted the 80th pick and in the grand scheme of things, the 80th pick isn't a big deal.

However, showing everyone in the NFL he couldn't get such a slight upgrade to the deal as a whole either means he was out-negotiated bu Dorsey or didn't see to get every last ounce of value from the deal.

It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG

I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.

It's not like I'm losing sleep over this or thinking about it several times a day, just whenever I visit the forums here or read a general article on free agency and trades hat mentions the deal.


It’s impressive how much you know about this deal without being involved in it. Remarkable really.
RE: RE: So you are having trouble getting over  
GiantGrit : 3/16/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14341717 jamison884 said:
Quote:


It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG

I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.



Odell Beckham Jr.

1. Has played in 16 games in 2 years
2. Still very good but did look less explosive
3. Is such a problem behind the scenes the team who just signed him to a long term deal decided they had to 100% move on from him

His value is depreciating. And while people here like to say a lot of the Odell noise is simply rumors, the reality is a lot more has gone on behind the scenes which the Giants rightfully have kept hush hush. Why?

Because 31 teams have sharks as GM's, and the minute word gets out Odell is more trouble than he is worth and the Giants have decided to move on, blood is in the water. Now the value drops even more. Then it gets reported Odell is all but gone. Lets be real - how is he going to handle that? Now you have more of a media circus which is the absolute last thing this organization needs right now.

Lets stop pretending the Giants were negotiating from a position of strength. In reality, they were in a position to be had but did a good job keeping it under wraps.

When you consider all of the above information, it actually blows my mind people still have a problem with the compensation.


I really don’t...  
Strip-Sack : 3/16/2019 1:18 pm : link
understand how anyone can get so upset about something they can’t possibly know the specifics of....were you in the room or on the calls? I get being upset with the trade in general, as a fan....but it’s not like they traded OBJ for a sixth rd pick and a backup long snapper. Hey, it would be great if they snared 3 first rounders but it’s a negotiation that none of us were apart of so why be so livid about the minutiae because you assume something was or wasn’t done.
I agree and I think DG really wanted a pick this year  
Vanzetti : 3/16/2019 2:20 pm : link
You are probably right that he could have gotten a higher future pick, but he really wants to prove himself and turn it around this year, so he covted the 2019 third more than a higher pick in 2020 or 2021
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