I wrote a much longer and angrier post the day of the trade, but I ultimately decided against posing it because it added nothing new. This post is basically the same, as in it won't add much new, but this is my way of venting before ultimately moving on, so please just give me this one and then I can stop thinking about it. I don't post often, but I had to on this.
Let us take a journey to the day of the trade.
You're DG, and you're on the phone with Dorsey. You've laid out getting the obvious pick at 17, you're swapping your picks back in relation to the prior Vernon trade, you're getting a mid-level NFL starting safety that has some serious tackling concerns, but your coaches probably like his upside.
Then you're working on the final piece of the negotiation. For me, that would have been the 2020 Brown's first rounder, especially since they're likely to have a low pick next year, somewhere in the mid 20's perhaps. You're trading a top-3 player at his position under contract in exchange for a gamble that you can get anyone near his value at pick 17 (which is a bad bet), so that certainly warrants another opportunity to replace his talent/value next year with a player picked around 24. Maybe both of those picks combined come close to equaling OBJ's talent.
But for whatever reason, DG is so set on this trade, that he doesn't get that second 1st rounder. Or even a 2nd rounder this year or next year, which would have been much more bearable of a trade to most of us on here, I'm sure.
This ultimately means they finally come to terms on a third rounder this year. I think it's a shitty place to come together, but fine, I'm over it fairly quickly.
Then here's the part where DG looks like he got played like a peice of shit chump of a GM. I'm positive DG asked Dorsey for the Browns 3rd pick at #80 overall (how could you not?). Dorsey apparently responded: no way, but I'll give you the last pick of the third at #95.
At this point, the NYG have the leverage. They're clearly getting the shittier end of the deal because they want OBJ out immediately, in fact, so fast that it appears they may not have even had serious discussions with other potential trade partners (despite the whole "you don't extend a player if you're going to trade him"...blah blah blah).
How in the world, does DG ultimately just accept the #95 pick, versus saying "No deal, call me back when you're ready to be reasonable and complete this trade with the #80 spot." and then promptly end the call.
Does anyone here honestly think the Browns would turn down this entire trade which could put them into the 2019 playoffs, all over a 15-spot difference in the third round when they're clearly winning on this deal at any angle you look at it?
In my humble opinion, the fact DG accepted #95 instead of #80 makes him look like the biggest bitch of a GM in the entire league. And no, I don't care if that's what it said on any stupid draft value trade card or any obscure precedent from an entirely different trade.
If you have conceded so much as-is to give the Browns a discounted OBJ contract with $20m straight off the top already paid by the NYG, and you can't get a selection 15 picks higher in the third round? What? Are you kidding me? You call yourself a GM? A negotiator, a deal maker?
Just disgusting...
He walked away from the deal and the Browns folded and gave up Peppers.
There is no way Dorsey kills the deal if DG walks away letting the Browns know they need the higher third round pick to close. And if they didn’t give it, DG should have walked. Browns most likely would have come back to the table.
In my opinion thus far Gettleman has been a huge failure. His one claim is that last year’s draft was solid but if you are in the camp that they should have gone QB rather than Barkley, then even that draft was a failure.
Giants are riding with Eli again in 2019/20. With this roster, I can’t imagine the Giants winning more than 5 or 6. And then they are back in the draft, probably picking 10 down or 11 and too far to get a franchise QB.
So we ride with Eli again in 2020-21. It’s a bad cycle.
Somewhere between the combine and the OV trade....as OBJ must have been in discussions.
Jamison disregards Pepper as "a midlevel safety with tackling concern".....i view him as an upgrade over Collin in coverage and pretty equal against the run. Peppers is much faster and bonofide 1st rounder....with 3 years under a draft control contract.
The 17th pick and Peppers are the prize
I am stilling holding judgement on trade until i see what we get in draft....but from a value stand point....it is a decent haul.
Compared to Coopee, AB.....and OBJ does not have a cheap contract.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.
Why are 15 spots more important for the Giants than they are for the Browns?
As it stands now. The Giants will be getting to pick 3 times before the Browns even get to their 1st pick. If the Browns gave the Giants the 80th pick instead of the 95th pick they would have had only 1 pick smack dab in the middle of the 1st 3 rounds (since the 95th is close to being a 4th rounder). I'd argue the Browns had more draft capital to lose than the Giants had to gain.
Yes this is speculation but I honestly feel there is some truth to it. Giants decided they had enough. So they took what they could get. I’m ok with the trade.
IMO, if they like Peppers as much as reported, DG did well.
If you want to strip all nuance away from my post and the replies to my post, it comes down to this: did we NEED that 15-spot difference in the 3rd round? No...but you can't convince me that DG failed in getting the #80 spot because I simply don't see the Browns calling off the trade over 15 spots.
In other words, DG failed in finding maximum value in the trade based on realistic expectations and real-world realistic variables. I find it just absolutely inconveivable that the Browns would cancel the trade if we demanded the #80 pick, and if I'm wrong and the Browns would refuse the trade merely based on the #80 pick, then call their bluff and call off the trade to find a new trading partner. I'm betting Dorsey gives DG a call a few hours later and simply says "#80 is yours, let's get this done."
I don't think I can be convinced otherwise, and as minor as this single aspect may be under any circumstance, and even if this trade turns out to be a masterstroke of genius by DG, it's STILL a sign of weakness and incompetence that he couldn't get a 15-spot bump in a trade where I haven't seen/read a single NFL analyst stating the NYG won this trade from looking at it in immediate terms. One, two, three years from now the NYG may have certainly won this trade, but right now, I just don't see it. So, my overall point is, we all know in hindsight how any draft position can produce a hall of fame player, but the higher the draft spot you have, the slightly better chance you'll land a quality player.
It's merely about leaving an attainable asset on the table. DG folded over 15 spots in the draft while he had the better hand (in respect to leverage, as the Browns had more to gain from this trade than the NYG in the immediate future/2019 season), and I'm not satisfied with the job he did. And this isn't even evaluating the nuances of the remainder of the trade, just those 15 spots.
Thank you guys for some reasonable discussion and replies; it's appreciated.
2020 #2 would have been my preference as a hedge against not getting a QB this year.
How can you say DG didn't get maximum value when you yourself stated you don't know what DG got? If you are just counting the draft picks in exchange for OBJ, then you have can make your case. Or if you have great knowledge of Peppers, you can make your case. But if you don't know much about him, your own line of reasoning fails because you don't know what DG got in return for OBJ.
Absolutely....not sure why people omit this little detail. I guess they want to hide it because it doesn’t support their agenda.
Being bugged about something like this means you are looking for a reason to hate it.
Peppers does miss a lot of tackles
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.
And freed up enough salary to sign another player. So it's really 4 players plus swapping a 5th for a 4th. In the NFL, I'll take this.
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was. Yes DG wanted OBJ gone, he wanted him gone last year. I'm a huge OBJ fan, but behind the scenes he was a PIA. Anyway, the OPs dismissal of Peppers as some throw in is his mistake. Peppers takes Collins position and is apparently an upgrade.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick and swapped a 5th for a 4th. That is quite a haul.
And freed up enough salary to sign another player. So it's really 4 players plus swapping a 5th for a 4th. In the NFL, I'll take this.
Didn’t we only save like $3 million?
That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.
That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.
Couldn't agree more.
Be upset that the long time ID of the NY Football Giants was hijacked by the Reese regime and thankful that DG is bringing it back. Stop fretting over the little things and start digging the big picture.
That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.
Not in a literal manner. It's more of a matter of perception. Given all of the many variables of the trade, I imagine DG wouldn't have wanted the 80th pick and in the grand scheme of things, the 80th pick isn't a big deal.
However, showing everyone in the NFL he couldn't get such a slight upgrade to the deal as a whole either means he was out-negotiated bu Dorsey or didn't see to get every last ounce of value from the deal.
It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG
I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.
It's not like I'm losing sleep over this or thinking about it several times a day, just whenever I visit the forums here or read a general article on free agency and trades hat mentions the deal.
I think you’re looking for something to take Gettleman to task on.
In essence they got 1st round pick, 1st round player, 3rd round pick AND SWAPPED A 4TH FOR A 5TH . That is quite a haul.
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Getting pick #95 in the third round as opposed to #80 in the third round? 15 spots?
That is just nitpicking. Weird thing to be bothered by.
Not in a literal manner. It's more of a matter of perception. Given all of the many variables of the trade, I imagine DG wouldn't have wanted the 80th pick and in the grand scheme of things, the 80th pick isn't a big deal.
However, showing everyone in the NFL he couldn't get such a slight upgrade to the deal as a whole either means he was out-negotiated bu Dorsey or didn't see to get every last ounce of value from the deal.
It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG
I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.
It's not like I'm losing sleep over this or thinking about it several times a day, just whenever I visit the forums here or read a general article on free agency and trades hat mentions the deal.
It’s impressive how much you know about this deal without being involved in it. Remarkable really.
It's really not about not having that pick for me, it's about not having the pick because our GM was too weak in negotiations or if he didn't bring up getting the higher pick, he wasn't fighting for the maximum benefit to the NYG
I guess if you want to boil it down to fewer words, it's a symbolic weakness that I don't like being part of the deal.
Odell Beckham Jr.
1. Has played in 16 games in 2 years
2. Still very good but did look less explosive
3. Is such a problem behind the scenes the team who just signed him to a long term deal decided they had to 100% move on from him
His value is depreciating. And while people here like to say a lot of the Odell noise is simply rumors, the reality is a lot more has gone on behind the scenes which the Giants rightfully have kept hush hush. Why?
Because 31 teams have sharks as GM's, and the minute word gets out Odell is more trouble than he is worth and the Giants have decided to move on, blood is in the water. Now the value drops even more. Then it gets reported Odell is all but gone. Lets be real - how is he going to handle that? Now you have more of a media circus which is the absolute last thing this organization needs right now.
Lets stop pretending the Giants were negotiating from a position of strength. In reality, they were in a position to be had but did a good job keeping it under wraps.
When you consider all of the above information, it actually blows my mind people still have a problem with the compensation.