Kyler Murray or Josh Rosen?

Physically he fits the bill the Giants seem to like in a QB. He performed adequately last year for a horrible Cardinal team and he demonstrated his durability.

Adding Rosen should not cost us anymore than our second round pick, allowing us to add an impact player on defense and six and pssibly ay seventeen as well.

Nobody ever wants to trade picks, but do you think the Eagles regret trading for Wentz? Do we regret trading for Eli?

that we don't really have any control over this answer. Arizona does.

If the Cards want Murray, then they take him and make Rosen available and we can potentially pursue that.

If the Cards trust Rosen and want to trade out of 1 for value then we can pursue that.

If you're only looking at these two guys as options, then we'd have to do what we're told, and see if the price is acceptable - a price others might be competing to pay.

In that scenario I don’t know what he’d cost because I don’t know who would move up to get him. Plausible he could fall to #6.

Rosen I am intrigued but only for a second round pick max. I would also understand if the Giants just aren’t interested, although I think a player with his talent is worth bringing in even if they aren’t in love with him. If you can get him for a third rounder (which might not be possible) then it’s probably worth it just to have him in the building and practice for a year to make a throrough assessement. Worst case scenario you blow a third round pick on a guy who’s not the answer, it’s a low risk move.

But good job with the original thread content.

Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake.

Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.

You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy.

A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy.

The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock.

it would be a no brainier. The advantages to Rosen, is that he is a very good QB prospect, could be obtained without giving up the 6th pick in the draft, and the Cards will have to eat his signing bonus. Consequently, the Giants would be getting someone with the talent to become the next franchise QB, would keep the 6th and could use it building-up the D, and would not take as big of hit to the salary cap.

with what Giants have been doing. To waste their draft capital on the QB this year when they are trying to improve the team with a loaded defensive draft and depth at OL would be against everything we’ve seen from Gettleman so far.

That the Giants don’t like Haskins because he is not mobile then I think we can rule out Rosen as well. No need to trade up for Murray. If we’re making a trade it should be for Russell Wilson.

In comment 14343283 Doubledeuce22 said:

Quote:

That the Giants don’t like Haskins because he is not mobile then I think we can rule out Rosen as well. No need to trade up for Murray. If we’re making a trade it should be for Russell Wilson.

Don't agree at all. Didn't Rosen put up better/similar numbers than Darnold at the combine? Rosen just chooses to stand in the pocket and make his throws. Remember, mobility to Shurmur is more than running. It is being able to buy more time and that means being mobile inside the pocket. Just because he said mobile doesn't mean outside the pocket. And since Rosen has the ability he should still be able to run plays on designed roll outs like Eli did a bunch this year.

is not a superstar. He’s QB fools gold.

In comment 14343274 allstarjim said:

Quote:

Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.

How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum.

Is not mobile at all. Who knows if the reports are true but if they are then you have to figure Rosen is eliminated as someone DG would trade for.

In comment 14343315 Doubledeuce22 said:

Quote:

Is not mobile at all. Who knows if the reports are true but if they are then you have to figure Rosen is eliminated as someone DG would trade for.

He can move. He can't run like Murray, but he moves better than Eli and Haskins...

It's confirmed his douchiness is congenital and can't be fixed, like OBJs soyboy divaness.
I would not trade up for Murray for valuable picks, he'll I didn't like trading up for Eli at the time. If he falls to us, in DG we trust.

In comment 14343276 Beer Man said:

Quote:

it would be a no brainier. The advantages to Rosen, is that he is a very good QB prospect, could be obtained without giving up the 6th pick in the draft, and the Cards will have to eat his signing bonus. Consequently, the Giants would be getting someone with the talent to become the next franchise QB, would keep the 6th and could use it building-up the D, and would not take as big of hit to the salary cap.

This

Ran the same 40 time at the combine. While I don’t think the Giants are looking for a running QB, they want one who can move outside the pocket and make plays. Hopefully they don’t go after a QB this year and wait til next years crop. Don’t care for any of these QBs and it’s worth the gamble of waiting til next year.

because of the economics of his deal and the fact he has a one year of NFL experience under his belt. And it goes without saying that his arm and fundamental skills are plus-plus.

Murray is the superior athlete with an incredible upside as a play-maker. But that height and overall size it too risky for my blood...

In comment 14343318 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14343315 Doubledeuce22 said: Quote: Is not mobile at all. Who knows if the reports are true but if they are then you have to figure Rosen is eliminated as someone DG would trade for. He can move. He can't run like Murray, but he moves better than Eli and Haskins...

4.92 40 time is not a QB that can move. What is your justification on this? He is a sit in the pocket passer which this league is moving away from. Not even sure if this is the right direction to go in for QBs but it seems like that’s what Shurmur and DG are looking for.

Shurmur, Mara, Gettleman and NY Media, I'd take Rosen immediately. On the 50-minute-every-pass-play-with-the-Cards reel, he looked as good as peak Eli (even better on screens and quick passes to the flat) and he was operating behind a line worse than ours.

I like both qb's, but I'm not sure I'd pay the price to get Murray if he were available. I like Murray better than Rosen because of his mobility, but my guess is that he's the one that the Cards take and keep.

If he sits a year behind Eli for year one he could come in and do some of the Taysom Hill does in NO. He could run the wildcat, a few option runs etc. Guys like him can do more than hold a clipboard.

I can see us winning 8 games this year. I doubt the big 3 will be available where we are picking next year. So we may have to trade picks next year, too.

is that we make a play for Rosen as I do not think they see any of the QB's in this class as guys are franchise QB's.

If they can get him for a 2nd rounder as has been rumored, I think you pull the trigger, so to speak and focus on OL and Defense going forward.

In comment 14343347 TrueBlue22 said:

Quote:

I can see us winning 8 games this year. I doubt the big 3 will be available where we are picking next year. So we may have to trade picks next year, too.

11 picks next year. Build the lines up this year and if need be then trade up for a QB next year.

It was the worst in football. Not to mention that Rosen was only 21 playing with one of the worst WR and TE's groups in the NFL. His head coach was fired after just one year because he was in way over his head.

I will admit that I wanted Darnold or Rosen last year in that order and I would be happy if the Giants could get him for their 2nd round pick unless of course he isn't truly focused on football. If the Giants came out of the draft with Rosen, Montez Sweat, and either Christian Wilkins, Jawaan Taylor, Devin Bush, or Andre Dillard at 17 then I would be far more hopeful about the Giants chances next season.

In comment 14343320 Coach Red Beaulieu said:

Quote:

It's confirmed his douchiness is congenital and can't be fixed, like OBJs soyboy divaness. I would not trade up for Murray for valuable picks, he'll I didn't like trading up for Eli at the time. If he falls to us, in DG we trust.

Really it's confirmed? Who confirmed this?

Herbert Tua and Fromm

I liked him last year and I still like him this year. KM is going to Zona but I’m not a fan of undersized QBs.

for a 2nd. QB issue solved and we still keep our 1st round picks. Even if we give #17 for Rosen its a good deal.

him

Josh Rosen can't move at all have clearly never even watched a Josh Rosen highlight before.

Thought he ran a 4.79, but what’s the difference people who hate him will slam him. He’s a pocket QB with mobility (which is what Shurmur has said he likes)

Murray by 20 lengths.

In comment 14343417 Dave on the UWS said:

Quote:

Thought he ran a 4.79, but what’s the difference people who hate him will slam him. He’s a pocket QB with mobility (which is what Shurmur has said he likes)

I don’t even hate Rosen but why does he have mobility? Because he has 2 legs? He’s not mobile. He’s a straight pocket passer.

I believe the Giants looked hard at Rosen last year as possible plan B if Barkley was gone ... if they liked him then, they will get him now; if the Cards want Murray

Murray is a poor fit for this team. His measureables and potential baseball future make him too risky to rely upon anyway.

Likewise, Rosen is fool’s gold. *Even* if we discount his performance last year and pretend it never happened, and it looked like he had the ability to be our qb of the future, we would rely upon him for a year, maybe two, and then after he wobbles away I to retirement, we would be stuck in qb hell looking to be in position to draft a new one.

In comment 14343447 Spider56 said:

Quote:

I believe the Giants looked hard at Rosen last year as possible plan B if Barkley was gone ... if they liked him then, they will get him now; if the Cards want Murray

It’s been reported that plan B was Chubb. When you get to plan C or D or whatever, why Rosen and not Darnold? Based on what nfl gm’s thought, as proven by their actions, Rosen was the 4th best QB in last year’s draft.

than his ability. After getting pummeled behind a porous O-line, his durability seems fine.

In comment 14343466 CT Charlie said:

Quote:

than his ability. After getting pummeled behind a porous O-line, his durability seems fine.

I don’t think that means anything. You can get sacked a lot but that next noggin knocker is still ticking away.

Option 3 only.

Option 3 only.

In comment 14343313 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14343274 allstarjim said: Quote: Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake. How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum.

He's not going to be good enough to be a winning franchise QB, i.e., a bum.

pick Rosen, but I'd be surprised if the Giants trade for him. I think the Cardinals will pick Murray.

In comment 14343440 Doubledeuce22 said:

Quote:

In comment 14343417 Dave on the UWS said: Quote: Thought he ran a 4.79, but what’s the difference people who hate him will slam him. He’s a pocket QB with mobility (which is what Shurmur has said he likes) I don’t even hate Rosen but why does he have mobility? Because he has 2 legs? He’s not mobile. He’s a straight pocket passer.

He is about as mobile as Darnold who for some reason people think makes plays with his legs which he doesn't. Darnold ran a 4.85.

In comment 14343481 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14343313 section125 said: Quote: In comment 14343274 allstarjim said: Quote: Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake. How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum. He's not going to be good enough to be a winning franchise QB, i.e., a bum.

That is your definition of a bum? Yikes. Man oh man. You really need to get out more dude.

In comment 14343308 Sammo85 said:

Quote:

is not a superstar. He’s QB fools gold.

Sounds crazy, but I don’t like the odds that two QB’s from the same school taken #1 in successive years will both be good. And that’s not even taking into account the lack of experience and being undersized.

55% passing, 11-14 TD to INT in 14 games.

That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE.

There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long.

He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.

In comment 14343516 allstarjim said:

Quote:

55% passing, 11-14 TD to INT in 14 games. That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE. There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long. He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.

what were Eli's stats after his rookie year?

48.2% completions. 6 TD's, 9 Int's.

But given the legitimate concerns about his height, durability, ability to read defenses, and possibility of returning to baseball, I go could go either way on the question of whether Giants should trade a boatload of picks for him.

doesn't have the mindset to survive NYC so its irrelevant.

In 9 games, he completed 48.2% of his passes, 6 to 9 TD/INT ratio, 5.3 YPA, old QB rating 55.4. And with Coughlin as the HC.

In other words, a train wreck.

In comment 14343516 allstarjim said:

Quote:

55% passing, 11-14 TD to INT in 14 games. That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE. There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long. He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.

Did you actually watch them play at all? They had the worst OL in the entire league and it wasn't even close. He was pressured on over 40% of his dropbacks. That's a nightmare for a rookie QB. David Johnson was pretty terrible all year long but you just called him one of the best RB's. Notice the inconsistency there? Kirk missed the last 4 games and was also a rookie, Fitzgerald looked like a corpse out there 90% of the time. Chad Williams didn't even play weeks 9-15.

What's more important is 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle.

For comparison's sake:

Player---3Cone---20Yard Shuttle

Rosen---7.09---4.28
Darnold---6.96---4.40
Mayfield---7.0---4.28

Lauletta---6.95---4.07(best time amongst QBs last year)

You build from the inside out. Eli will surprise everyone this year.i guarantee it.

In comment 14343551 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

doesn't have the mindset to survive NYC so its irrelevant.

Kind of hard to quantify wouldn’t you say.

In comment 14343561 Strahan91 said:

Quote:

In comment 14343516 allstarjim said: Quote: 55% passing, 11-14 TD to INT in 14 games. That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE. There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long. He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation. Did you actually watch them play at all? They had the worst OL in the entire league and it wasn't even close. He was pressured on over 40% of his dropbacks. That's a nightmare for a rookie QB. David Johnson was pretty terrible all year long but you just called him one of the best RB's. Notice the inconsistency there? Kirk missed the last 4 games and was also a rookie, Fitzgerald looked like a corpse out there 90% of the time. Chad Williams didn't even play weeks 9-15.

Strahan is correct, the Cardinals were pitiful. David Johnson did close to nothing because the OL was so bad. At least Rosen beat out the starter Bradford, managed to put some points on the board, and take a beating but kept right on. The HC was fired this team was so bad. To paint some kind of picture that Rosen ever had a shot is wrong. In the end his stats weren't much different than Darnold, who had a much much better situation with the Jets.

In comment 14343274 allstarjim said:

Quote:

But good job with the original thread content. Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake. Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake. You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy. A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy. The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock.

Sorry, but you are clueless when it comes to Rosen. You have a real blind spot there.

I liked him during the draft last year, and if the Cards want to put him up for a trade, the Giants should go for him full force. I don't want to see Rosen end up in New England, where he'd be the heir apparent of Tom Brady. He needs to be a Giant!

In comment 14343676 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:

Quote:

In comment 14343274 allstarjim said: Quote: But good job with the original thread content. Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake. Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake. You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy. A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy. The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock. Sorry, but you are clueless when it comes to Rosen. You have a real blind spot there.

I'm clueless when it comes to Rosen? Nah, I think I have a clue. I watched a LOT of his UCLA snaps. He wasn't a winner there, he did not put up exceptional statistics, and the one game everybody lauded (the comeback vs Texas A&M), would've ended on an INT if the Aggie safety would've secured the ill-advised heave that went right through his hands and resulted in a TD. He also got away with another bad, bailout throw in that game that also resulted in a TD. Two touchdowns late that were absolutely terrible throws that he was tremendously lucky to get away with.

He did not win many games.
He is not an accurate thrower of the football on off-schedule throws.
His mobility, escapability, while not the worst, is not good enough.
He makes panic throws, he loses composure under pressure and often tries to do too much.
He doesn't feel pressure well, this was evident in college and it was evident last year, and part of the reason he was sacked so much.
He never put up elite stats in college, but his very predictable terrible rookie season is excused because of the bad team around him. DJ was not part of the problem. He would've been a lot better with competent QB play that punished overloaded boxes. Defenses just didn't respect Rosen nor should they have.

If Rosen ever becomes a top 10 QB I will be shocked. It's easy to fall in love with his arm talent and accuracy when he has a good pocket and is not under duress. He throws a pretty ball and is accurate when the protection is there. He has good mechanics. But you have to win and make plays under pressure in the NFL. You have to recognize the blitz and make quick decisions and deliver under pressure. You have to feel that pressure and have an in-tune internal clock. Rosen struggles in all these areas.

Yes, protection for him was bad. But there is a lot of tape from last year in which he was legitimately terrible, even when protection was there. That Atlanta game was week 15 of the season and he sucked out loud in that game and got yanked by his coach.

There is a chance Rosen will prove me wrong and he will make great strides and show massive improvement (because he will need massive improvement). But he did not have a good rookie year. He did not improve over the course of the year. And you can't just dismiss his contribution to his own performance and just say it was only because of the play of his teammates. You have to show some improvement, and you have to make plays in the NFL when protection isn't ideal. Darnold didn't have good pass pro last year and he improved from early in the year to late in the year.

If I knew any of you outside of here I'd make a bet with you that he won't be a starter by 2021, unless it's because of injury.