We really don't know where we will be in the draft order in 2020 (the schedule this year is better than usual). We know where are in 2019.
I watched Josh Rosen's work for the Cardinals last year. Keep in mind their O-line wasn't good. He looked good to me, like the guy at UCLA. Makes excellent throws, strong arm, puts the ball where the receiver is going, has some mobility, looks like a leader.
I watched Kyler Murray. Cannon & accurate arm, able to run when needs & runs well, throws 90% from from the pocket. 5' 10" but sees the field well, it appears.
I think either QB can be the next great Giants QB. The price the Cardinals will extract for the 1st overall pick for Murray is going to be extremely high, however.
What do you do if you are Dave Gettleman?
1. Trade what it takes and get Murray. Could be a superstar.
2. Trade a good amount for Rosen.
3. Wait till 2020 for the QB and hope for the best.
As of today, I would go with option (2).
Adding Rosen should not cost us anymore than our second round pick, allowing us to add an impact player on defense and six and pssibly ay seventeen as well.
If the Cards want Murray, then they take him and make Rosen available and we can potentially pursue that.
If the Cards trust Rosen and want to trade out of 1 for value then we can pursue that.
If you're only looking at these two guys as options, then we'd have to do what we're told, and see if the price is acceptable - a price others might be competing to pay.
Rosen I am intrigued but only for a second round pick max. I would also understand if the Giants just aren’t interested, although I think a player with his talent is worth bringing in even if they aren’t in love with him. If you can get him for a third rounder (which might not be possible) then it’s probably worth it just to have him in the building and practice for a year to make a throrough assessement. Worst case scenario you blow a third round pick on a guy who’s not the answer, it’s a low risk move.
Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake.
Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy.
A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy.
The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock.
Don't agree at all. Didn't Rosen put up better/similar numbers than Darnold at the combine? Rosen just chooses to stand in the pocket and make his throws. Remember, mobility to Shurmur is more than running. It is being able to buy more time and that means being mobile inside the pocket. Just because he said mobile doesn't mean outside the pocket. And since Rosen has the ability he should still be able to run plays on designed roll outs like Eli did a bunch this year.
Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum.
He can move. He can't run like Murray, but he moves better than Eli and Haskins...
I would not trade up for Murray for valuable picks, he'll I didn't like trading up for Eli at the time. If he falls to us, in DG we trust.
This
Murray is the superior athlete with an incredible upside as a play-maker. But that height and overall size it too risky for my blood...
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Is not mobile at all. Who knows if the reports are true but if they are then you have to figure Rosen is eliminated as someone DG would trade for.
He can move. He can't run like Murray, but he moves better than Eli and Haskins...
4.92 40 time is not a QB that can move. What is your justification on this? He is a sit in the pocket passer which this league is moving away from. Not even sure if this is the right direction to go in for QBs but it seems like that’s what Shurmur and DG are looking for.
If they can get him for a 2nd rounder as has been rumored, I think you pull the trigger, so to speak and focus on OL and Defense going forward.
11 picks next year. Build the lines up this year and if need be then trade up for a QB next year.
I will admit that I wanted Darnold or Rosen last year in that order and I would be happy if the Giants could get him for their 2nd round pick unless of course he isn't truly focused on football. If the Giants came out of the draft with Rosen, Montez Sweat, and either Christian Wilkins, Jawaan Taylor, Devin Bush, or Andre Dillard at 17 then I would be far more hopeful about the Giants chances next season.
I would not trade up for Murray for valuable picks, he'll I didn't like trading up for Eli at the time. If he falls to us, in DG we trust.
Really it's confirmed? Who confirmed this?
I don’t even hate Rosen but why does he have mobility? Because he has 2 legs? He’s not mobile. He’s a straight pocket passer.
Likewise, Rosen is fool’s gold. *Even* if we discount his performance last year and pretend it never happened, and it looked like he had the ability to be our qb of the future, we would rely upon him for a year, maybe two, and then after he wobbles away I to retirement, we would be stuck in qb hell looking to be in position to draft a new one.
It’s been reported that plan B was Chubb. When you get to plan C or D or whatever, why Rosen and not Darnold? Based on what nfl gm’s thought, as proven by their actions, Rosen was the 4th best QB in last year’s draft.
I don’t think that means anything. You can get sacked a lot but that next noggin knocker is still ticking away.
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Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum.
He's not going to be good enough to be a winning franchise QB, i.e., a bum.
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Thought he ran a 4.79, but what’s the difference people who hate him will slam him. He’s a pocket QB with mobility (which is what Shurmur has said he likes)
I don’t even hate Rosen but why does he have mobility? Because he has 2 legs? He’s not mobile. He’s a straight pocket passer.
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In comment 14343274 allstarjim said:
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Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
How is he a bum? If you don't think he is good enough to be a franchise QB, say so. Don't call him a bum because you don't think he fits YOUR requirements at QB. Rosen is not a bum.
He's not going to be good enough to be a winning franchise QB, i.e., a bum.
That is your definition of a bum? Yikes. Man oh man. You really need to get out more dude.
Sounds crazy, but I don’t like the odds that two QB’s from the same school taken #1 in successive years will both be good. And that’s not even taking into account the lack of experience and being undersized.
That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE.
There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long.
He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.
That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE.
There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long.
He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.
what were Eli's stats after his rookie year?
In other words, a train wreck.
That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE.
There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long.
He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.
Did you actually watch them play at all? They had the worst OL in the entire league and it wasn't even close. He was pressured on over 40% of his dropbacks. That's a nightmare for a rookie QB. David Johnson was pretty terrible all year long but you just called him one of the best RB's. Notice the inconsistency there? Kirk missed the last 4 games and was also a rookie, Fitzgerald looked like a corpse out there 90% of the time. Chad Williams didn't even play weeks 9-15.
For comparison's sake:
Player---3Cone---20Yard Shuttle
Rosen---7.09---4.28
Darnold---6.96---4.40
Mayfield---7.0---4.28
Lauletta---6.95---4.07(best time amongst QBs last year)
Kind of hard to quantify wouldn’t you say.
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55% passing, 11-14 TD to INT in 14 games.
That's bad even if you have a bad OL. And the skill position talent he had being subpar is overblown. One of the best RBs in DJ, Christian Kirk will soon be recognized as a budding star. Chad Williams is a good young receiver, Larry Fitzgerald though old is as sure-handed as they come and an elite route runner still, and Ricky Seals-Jones and Jermaine Gresham were not dog poo at TE.
There's a decent enough chance it was all due to the rookie learning curve, fine. But he didn't play any better late in he season. Baker Mayfield got better as the season went on. Sam Darnold got better and more consistent as the season went on. Josh Allen got better as the season went on. Josh Rosen was consistently bad all year. Want to talk about the sacks, fine. But some of those are not recognizing the blitz, and some are holding the ball too long.
He may get better. He may adjust better to NFL speed and make better decisions with the football, but from what I've seen from him, I don't expect Josh Rosen to settle anyone's QB situation.
Did you actually watch them play at all? They had the worst OL in the entire league and it wasn't even close. He was pressured on over 40% of his dropbacks. That's a nightmare for a rookie QB. David Johnson was pretty terrible all year long but you just called him one of the best RB's. Notice the inconsistency there? Kirk missed the last 4 games and was also a rookie, Fitzgerald looked like a corpse out there 90% of the time. Chad Williams didn't even play weeks 9-15.
Strahan is correct, the Cardinals were pitiful. David Johnson did close to nothing because the OL was so bad. At least Rosen beat out the starter Bradford, managed to put some points on the board, and take a beating but kept right on. The HC was fired this team was so bad. To paint some kind of picture that Rosen ever had a shot is wrong. In the end his stats weren't much different than Darnold, who had a much much better situation with the Jets.
Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake.
Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy.
A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy.
The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock.
Sorry, but you are clueless when it comes to Rosen. You have a real blind spot there.
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But good job with the original thread content.
Murray might end up being a great player, but trading massive draft capital to move up for a 5-10 QB is a mistake.
Trading for a bum like Rosen is an even worse mistake.
You can't screw up by waiting, you can only screw up by getting the wrong guy.
A 2nd rounder on Grier is better than the first two options. Best thing to me is to trade back, get an extra 2020 first, so that it's easier to trade up to get your man next year if need be. Having two first rounders next year also means two chances to naturally be in position to get the right guy.
The only QB I could see the Giants using #6 or #17 (he probably won't last that long), is Drew Lock.
Sorry, but you are clueless when it comes to Rosen. You have a real blind spot there.
I'm clueless when it comes to Rosen? Nah, I think I have a clue. I watched a LOT of his UCLA snaps. He wasn't a winner there, he did not put up exceptional statistics, and the one game everybody lauded (the comeback vs Texas A&M), would've ended on an INT if the Aggie safety would've secured the ill-advised heave that went right through his hands and resulted in a TD. He also got away with another bad, bailout throw in that game that also resulted in a TD. Two touchdowns late that were absolutely terrible throws that he was tremendously lucky to get away with.
He did not win many games.
He is not an accurate thrower of the football on off-schedule throws.
His mobility, escapability, while not the worst, is not good enough.
He makes panic throws, he loses composure under pressure and often tries to do too much.
He doesn't feel pressure well, this was evident in college and it was evident last year, and part of the reason he was sacked so much.
He never put up elite stats in college, but his very predictable terrible rookie season is excused because of the bad team around him. DJ was not part of the problem. He would've been a lot better with competent QB play that punished overloaded boxes. Defenses just didn't respect Rosen nor should they have.
If Rosen ever becomes a top 10 QB I will be shocked. It's easy to fall in love with his arm talent and accuracy when he has a good pocket and is not under duress. He throws a pretty ball and is accurate when the protection is there. He has good mechanics. But you have to win and make plays under pressure in the NFL. You have to recognize the blitz and make quick decisions and deliver under pressure. You have to feel that pressure and have an in-tune internal clock. Rosen struggles in all these areas.
Yes, protection for him was bad. But there is a lot of tape from last year in which he was legitimately terrible, even when protection was there. That Atlanta game was week 15 of the season and he sucked out loud in that game and got yanked by his coach.
There is a chance Rosen will prove me wrong and he will make great strides and show massive improvement (because he will need massive improvement). But he did not have a good rookie year. He did not improve over the course of the year. And you can't just dismiss his contribution to his own performance and just say it was only because of the play of his teammates. You have to show some improvement, and you have to make plays in the NFL when protection isn't ideal. Darnold didn't have good pass pro last year and he improved from early in the year to late in the year.
If I knew any of you outside of here I'd make a bet with you that he won't be a starter by 2021, unless it's because of injury.