Was Eli "dogging it" in 2007 when he threw three pick-6's against Minnesota or did he just suck that day?
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
He didn't dog it in 2007.. he was a young QB who had to mature.. besides he played good in some games and I remember he led all QBs in game winning drives that year.. but if he can raise his game if we had made the playoffs last season then it would beg the question why didn't you play better in the game vs the Jags or Eagles.. weren't those games important? I am not saying he is dogging anything.. its just that if the 2019 Eli made it to the playoffs because he was carried to the payoffs then he isn't going to raise his game in the playoffs..
BTW I agree with everything you said afterwards except I would go a step further and simply cut Eli, get any QB to play KL, Haskins (if we get him at 6) Murray another 3rd/4th round QB.. Rosen anyone thats young or cheap enough so we can use 11M to get a RT or a center who will be here for 4-5 years to protect the 2020/2021 QB..
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
Eli is what he is now - an aging QB who doesn't have the same moxie and ability he had in his prime.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
No. Ross wants Tua next year. He is willing to purge the roster and field the least competitive team to ensure the end result of picking at the top of the 2020 draft. Ross is one foot in the grave and hasn't won a damn thing. Tua is his superbowl.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
Eli Manning and a first-round pick on the same depth chart will be an agonizingly dramatic situation for the entire year.
Replacing Ryan Fitzpatrick would be orders of magnitude less emotionally packed than replacing Eli Manning.
Put it this way, if Manning is getting his ass kicked and the Giants find themselves 5-4, does this staff have the mandate Coughlin did to bench Warner? Will the staff have the authority to pick what's best for the longterm at the expense of clinging onto one more shot for Manning?
christian, the problem with that logic is that it continues to cater to the fans and go about business in a way that is meant to appease them (us), rather than just removing that from the equation as much as possible and doing what's best for the Giants.
I need to be clear (even though I think I already have been...) that going the Eli route is absolutely not my first choice.
But, if we're not going with Eli and he's not here (we already know he will be, so this is hypothetical), there's no point in bringing in a stopgap. Either you're trading for Rosen, who already got thrown to the wolves last year, or a QB in the first round this year who should be able to take his lumps immediately.
Haskins is a guy I've made the argument for as someone who could probably benefit from some time watching with the clipboard... but even with Haskins, it's not the worst idea to just have him start out of the gates.
If we're going to go the "KC model" route, and have the next guy here before Eli is gone, I don't think too many fans are going to be upset with the Giants pulling the plug and giving the ball to the rookie if we're losing games.
I don't even think fans would have been that upset if it had been Davis Webb in 2017. Even knowing now that he's not any good. It's just that it was Geno Smith... it was like a major slap in the face.
There's a pretty large faction of Giants fans who want them to move on from Eli... I don't think that decision is going to be met with much resistance at all as long as it's in favor of a 1st rd rookie or young guy we've made a trade for (i.e.. Rosen)
I think throwing a guy right in without a vet ready to take the reigns is irresponsible. Even the Cards had Bradford in for 3 games.
A rookie might not be ready to function, and you're trying to build a team, teach guys the offense, etc. and you need someone who can keep the lights on.
As far as fan sentiment, I couldn't care less. I'd rather drop a guy too early than too late, and just being able to function isn't enough to pay a guy 23M.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
I think that's lames as heck, and an awful way to run a team -- but I don't think that's a limited sentiment. I think there's a huge contingent of fans who are loyal to Manning no matter what, and I'd lump John Mara in that group.
I'd just rather get beyond that drama now, cut Manning, save some coin, sign a baby sitter and draft a QB.
From a cash perspective, it made sense to move on from Tannehill, but he's probably worse than Fitz. Same with Bortles. They'd have been better off signing Bortles to QB this team.
Fitz is not good; no doubt about that. But he is going to play well in a handful of games and probably help them win 3-4. With Bortles, they probably win 2. That is my opinion, anyway.
Eli is what he is now - an aging QB who doesn't have the same moxie and ability he had in his prime.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
I think the Giants will be better than most people think.
Fitzpatrick averaged over 9 YPA last year. That is a big number.
Yea except he’s worse than Eli and you have to pay dead Eli money. So it’s not really better value. We go over this every day here lol... I love how everyone ignores this.
Can’t let go of that extra 5 million or so that Eli will count against the precious cap this year compare to some other unknown and likely terrible vet qb.
So. Fucking. Annoying. Guys, just move on already.
But if you really think that fitz gives the giants the same chance to win games right now over Eli you’re fucking lost. The guy has a good month every year, same shit Eli does in his sleep, then loses games in such mind blowing fashion time and time again. He’s not better than Eli. Never been better than Eli and never will be better than Eli.
Eli takes too many sacks behind a terrible OL. That’s his major flaw.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
Name one poster who said this.
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
Quote:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we aren’t walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell year’s all over again.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we aren’t walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell year’s all over again.
Then you, like DJM, didn't really read what I posted.
I don't think a placeholder QB is going to win more games than Manning.
I think the Giants should cut ties with Manning, draft a QB and sign a placeholde, and plan for the future. Precisely what the Giants did when Manning came here.
I think it will be unnecessarily distracting to deal with Manning and a highly drafted rookie on the same roster. Especially because I think the Giants will be pretty bad to start the year, and the calls for a rookie will come quickly.
See, I just don’t get these Miami Tanking comments. Fitz has virtually “untanked” every team in recent memory. The man refuses to go down without a fight. He’s the last guy you would want to bring along to drive the boat over the cliff. Either Miami is absurdly unaware, or the rhetoric is typical fandumb.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
The thing is, this isn't baseball and Jeter. The eagles and the cowboys aren't going to be giving him gifts before the game. Eli can't hide on the field. He is going to get creamed in the field and in the media and get booed at home a lot. Fairwell tours don't work in the NFL
there will be no booing. The offense will likely be fine and put up points.
There are three vital reasons why they are sticking with Eli from a logistical standpoint:
1. Eli's dead cap hit plus whatever it would take to sign a step down veteran would yield a negligible amount of money that really won't affect things one way or the other.
2. The return on making that move would not be worth the step down in play at the position.
3. If the Giants were so hard up for that five million dollars or so that they just had to have it, there are a billion options with the other 52 other players on the roster.
Cutting the guy just for the sake of cutting him to make a clean break is just as emotional as keeping him for sentimental reasons.
Eli makes sense for the team this year, from a logistical standpoint. He just does. You're going to have to deal with it. Unless we're just going to do this exercise over and over every day until he takes the field week one.
why do you keep saying #1 when this thread proves it untrue` Â
and signing Fitz to that deal just doesn't seem worth it for several reasons.
1. We just drastically improved the line, we've waited this long for it (as has Eli) and cutting him now for an inferior QB who's not in the long term plans seems moronic.
2. Cutting Eli is something I'm still on board with but it would have to be for a whoever was taking this team over (Rosen, a draft pick, etc).
3. The Giants, whether you agree with it or not, are still trying to win this year. An improved OLine with Barkley and hopefully a draft chock full of defensive additions could surprise. We see it all the time, why not Eli in his last year under contract?
4. As Britt mentioned wanting Eli gone so badly that you'd "waste" more money on Fitzpatrick is just as belligerent as wanting to keep him at all costs.
They've paid his bonus. They've stated he's back. He's the starter.
It's irrational to continue to discuss this, really, because you can pound your fist about his salary all you want, it's not going to change the fact that's he's returning as the starter.
But I guess if you want to do this every day for the next six months, have at it? Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year.
If the goal from management was to win games in Eli's last year, they would have franchised Collins and kept Beckham for one more try.
At minimum, they would not have made the 27th ranked defense worse by trading off pieces for picks.
You are not improving your defense by starting a bunch of rookies.
Why not? With improved ball control (better OLine) and young defensive pieces with a lot to prove why can’t we be better on defense? Our safeties on paper are better now than they were a week ago as well.
But if the goal isn’t to win games why sign Fitzpatrick to a 2 year deal when we can just start Lauletta for free?
They've paid his bonus. They've stated he's back. He's the starter.
It's irrational to continue to discuss this, really, because you can pound your fist about his salary all you want, it's not going to change the fact that's he's returning as the starter.
But I guess if you want to do this every day for the next six months, have at it? Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
You are the one that brought it back up.
It was just reported as another transaction ion until you incorrectly chimed in that there would have been no savings
I must have blinked during the fabulous free agent period of 2018 Â
when we paid a bundle for a wonderful set of bad and/or average players.
The set of malcontents seems to be an everlasting list as this purging started back over a year ago, continued during the past regular season and is now reaching into this free agent. Did we shed them all yet?
And now signing Golden Tate to his $23M deal at his age...for this team?
Peppered in-between are some good things the DG has done as well, but cannot have this hokie-pokey dance of good moves and really poor ones, and expect things to get better other than around the margins.
not sure what's hard to understand about it. They tried making a run in 2018 and it didn't work. Period. Would you rather continue to make mistakes or learn from them. Shouldn't the answer be obvious?
I suggest getting over 2018 sooner rather than later. The team has moved on from it, so should the fans.
I am not confused uconn. My post was simply about Â
how this restructuring, rebuilding, business as usual or making a run...whatever you want to call it, has proceeded.
We keep taking one step forward for every one that sets us back, and this has continued to occur under DG's reign now.
Moving on from mistakes and learning from them...all for it. But that means limiting them going forward too, and signing Tate for $23M guaranteed for a WR on the wrong side of 30 years old makes me roll my eyes...yet again.
and its to provide a very solid, above average WR to lead this WR corps. Maybe you don't see the value in that, but I do, especially after the immaturity of that unit over the past several years.
The money to him only hurts us this year and we have tons next year so it really is a wash, costwise. I don't see how this is taking a step back. Unless you just want them to not field a team at all we still have to sign vets and in case we get some good bounces, be in position to capitalize on them.
We were never "tearing it down". If you feel that's what we should do I can't argue that, but you can't really fault DG (or even Mara) if they don't want to openly punt a season.
Restructuring need to have started earlier and been done deeper. Those are mistakes we continue to pay for.
Consider them sunk costs...fine. But then go hard and deep now with it. So what do we do, we sign a 31 year old WR to play catch from a 39 year old guy we don’t want to cut because of loyalty.
You don’t just kind of dabble in restructuring or reorganizing. Less you want it to drag on forever...
RE: I must have blinked during the fabulous free agent period of 2018 Â
The set of malcontents seems to be an everlasting list as this purging started back over a year ago, continued during the past regular season and is now reaching into this free agent. Did we shed them all yet?
Not yet, let's turn over the roster again. Obviously when you win 5 games, it's "the culture" not the shocking lack of talent and the head coach that's 15-39 for his life.
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
He didn't dog it in 2007.. he was a young QB who had to mature.. besides he played good in some games and I remember he led all QBs in game winning drives that year.. but if he can raise his game if we had made the playoffs last season then it would beg the question why didn't you play better in the game vs the Jags or Eagles.. weren't those games important? I am not saying he is dogging anything.. its just that if the 2019 Eli made it to the playoffs because he was carried to the payoffs then he isn't going to raise his game in the playoffs..
BTW I agree with everything you said afterwards except I would go a step further and simply cut Eli, get any QB to play KL, Haskins (if we get him at 6) Murray another 3rd/4th round QB.. Rosen anyone thats young or cheap enough so we can use 11M to get a RT or a center who will be here for 4-5 years to protect the 2020/2021 QB..
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
If we do end up acquiring a young QB, he is unlikely to do much more than sit and watch Eli.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
Quote:
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
Quote:
the Rosen sweepstakes :)
They never were. There is only one sweepstakes as far as Ross is concerned and that is the Tua Sweepstakes.
I'm starting to believe there is only one team in the Rosen sweepstakes - the Giants.
No. Ross wants Tua next year. He is willing to purge the roster and field the least competitive team to ensure the end result of picking at the top of the 2020 draft. Ross is one foot in the grave and hasn't won a damn thing. Tua is his superbowl.
Quote:
In comment 14343820 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie can’t, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of “benching” Manning when the rookie is ready.
I don’t think any fan’s preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
Eli Manning and a first-round pick on the same depth chart will be an agonizingly dramatic situation for the entire year.
Replacing Ryan Fitzpatrick would be orders of magnitude less emotionally packed than replacing Eli Manning.
Put it this way, if Manning is getting his ass kicked and the Giants find themselves 5-4, does this staff have the mandate Coughlin did to bench Warner? Will the staff have the authority to pick what's best for the longterm at the expense of clinging onto one more shot for Manning?
I need to be clear (even though I think I already have been...) that going the Eli route is absolutely not my first choice.
But, if we're not going with Eli and he's not here (we already know he will be, so this is hypothetical), there's no point in bringing in a stopgap. Either you're trading for Rosen, who already got thrown to the wolves last year, or a QB in the first round this year who should be able to take his lumps immediately.
Haskins is a guy I've made the argument for as someone who could probably benefit from some time watching with the clipboard... but even with Haskins, it's not the worst idea to just have him start out of the gates.
If we're going to go the "KC model" route, and have the next guy here before Eli is gone, I don't think too many fans are going to be upset with the Giants pulling the plug and giving the ball to the rookie if we're losing games.
I don't even think fans would have been that upset if it had been Davis Webb in 2017. Even knowing now that he's not any good. It's just that it was Geno Smith... it was like a major slap in the face.
There's a pretty large faction of Giants fans who want them to move on from Eli... I don't think that decision is going to be met with much resistance at all as long as it's in favor of a 1st rd rookie or young guy we've made a trade for (i.e.. Rosen)
A rookie might not be ready to function, and you're trying to build a team, teach guys the offense, etc. and you need someone who can keep the lights on.
As far as fan sentiment, I couldn't care less. I'd rather drop a guy too early than too late, and just being able to function isn't enough to pay a guy 23M.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
I think that's lames as heck, and an awful way to run a team -- but I don't think that's a limited sentiment. I think there's a huge contingent of fans who are loyal to Manning no matter what, and I'd lump John Mara in that group.
I'd just rather get beyond that drama now, cut Manning, save some coin, sign a baby sitter and draft a QB.
Fitz is not good; no doubt about that. But he is going to play well in a handful of games and probably help them win 3-4. With Bortles, they probably win 2. That is my opinion, anyway.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
I think the Giants will be better than most people think.
Not 4-12 category but solid, maybe 9-7.
Yea except he’s worse than Eli and you have to pay dead Eli money. So it’s not really better value. We go over this every day here lol... I love how everyone ignores this.
So. Fucking. Annoying. Guys, just move on already.
Eli takes too many sacks behind a terrible OL. That’s his major flaw.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Name one poster who said this.
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we aren’t walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell year’s all over again.
Quote:
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. There’s a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we aren’t walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell year’s all over again.
Then you, like DJM, didn't really read what I posted.
I don't think a placeholder QB is going to win more games than Manning.
I think the Giants should cut ties with Manning, draft a QB and sign a placeholde, and plan for the future. Precisely what the Giants did when Manning came here.
I think it will be unnecessarily distracting to deal with Manning and a highly drafted rookie on the same roster. Especially because I think the Giants will be pretty bad to start the year, and the calls for a rookie will come quickly.
See, I just don’t get these Miami Tanking comments. Fitz has virtually “untanked” every team in recent memory. The man refuses to go down without a fight. He’s the last guy you would want to bring along to drive the boat over the cliff. Either Miami is absurdly unaware, or the rhetoric is typical fandumb.
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
Quote:
“But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.”
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If it’s an obvious tear down, then it doesn’t matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesn’t matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
The thing is, this isn't baseball and Jeter. The eagles and the cowboys aren't going to be giving him gifts before the game. Eli can't hide on the field. He is going to get creamed in the field and in the media and get booed at home a lot. Fairwell tours don't work in the NFL
There are three vital reasons why they are sticking with Eli from a logistical standpoint:
1. Eli's dead cap hit plus whatever it would take to sign a step down veteran would yield a negligible amount of money that really won't affect things one way or the other.
2. The return on making that move would not be worth the step down in play at the position.
3. If the Giants were so hard up for that five million dollars or so that they just had to have it, there are a billion options with the other 52 other players on the roster.
Cutting the guy just for the sake of cutting him to make a clean break is just as emotional as keeping him for sentimental reasons.
Eli makes sense for the team this year, from a logistical standpoint. He just does. You're going to have to deal with it. Unless we're just going to do this exercise over and over every day until he takes the field week one.
Fitz and elis dead cap will cost 11.5 mil
Thats a 11.5 mil savings, basically doubling our current cap space
The Giants have a lot of ways to free up money if they wanted to. What they don't have a lot of is options at QB.
1. We just drastically improved the line, we've waited this long for it (as has Eli) and cutting him now for an inferior QB who's not in the long term plans seems moronic.
2. Cutting Eli is something I'm still on board with but it would have to be for a whoever was taking this team over (Rosen, a draft pick, etc).
3. The Giants, whether you agree with it or not, are still trying to win this year. An improved OLine with Barkley and hopefully a draft chock full of defensive additions could surprise. We see it all the time, why not Eli in his last year under contract?
4. As Britt mentioned wanting Eli gone so badly that you'd "waste" more money on Fitzpatrick is just as belligerent as wanting to keep him at all costs.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year.
If the goal from management was to win games in Eli's last year, they would have franchised Collins and kept Beckham for one more try.
At minimum, they would not have made the 27th ranked defense worse by trading off pieces for picks.
You are not improving your defense by starting a bunch of rookies.
It's irrational to continue to discuss this, really, because you can pound your fist about his salary all you want, it's not going to change the fact that's he's returning as the starter.
But I guess if you want to do this every day for the next six months, have at it? Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
Quote:
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year.
If the goal from management was to win games in Eli's last year, they would have franchised Collins and kept Beckham for one more try.
At minimum, they would not have made the 27th ranked defense worse by trading off pieces for picks.
You are not improving your defense by starting a bunch of rookies.
Why not? With improved ball control (better OLine) and young defensive pieces with a lot to prove why can’t we be better on defense? Our safeties on paper are better now than they were a week ago as well.
But if the goal isn’t to win games why sign Fitzpatrick to a 2 year deal when we can just start Lauletta for free?
Doesn't change anything I just said.
How are they wasting time?
By getting rid of cancerous players, not overpaying marginal talent, trading away malcontents and rebuilding the OL/DL?
Thats wasting time? Oh no.... this is all about Eli again. Been the theme of the offseason....
Not overpaying marginal players?
This restructuring keeps taking one step forward and another one back....
Should've just hauled whatever grocery store Curtis Painter is working in these days and had him in for a tryout.
Not overpaying marginal players?
This restructuring keeps taking one step forward and another one back....
We got rid of malcontents first. Then we didnt overpay marginal talents. And got rid of the biggest headache of them all.
These are smart moves. We have cap space out of the wazoo next year. We will have a new QB.
The plan is so easy to see, yet many just dont want to open their eyes.
It's irrational to continue to discuss this, really, because you can pound your fist about his salary all you want, it's not going to change the fact that's he's returning as the starter.
But I guess if you want to do this every day for the next six months, have at it? Seems like a giant waste of time to me.
You are the one that brought it back up.
It was just reported as another transaction ion until you incorrectly chimed in that there would have been no savings
The set of malcontents seems to be an everlasting list as this purging started back over a year ago, continued during the past regular season and is now reaching into this free agent. Did we shed them all yet?
And now signing Golden Tate to his $23M deal at his age...for this team?
Peppered in-between are some good things the DG has done as well, but cannot have this hokie-pokey dance of good moves and really poor ones, and expect things to get better other than around the margins.
or maybe you do...
I suggest getting over 2018 sooner rather than later. The team has moved on from it, so should the fans.
We keep taking one step forward for every one that sets us back, and this has continued to occur under DG's reign now.
Moving on from mistakes and learning from them...all for it. But that means limiting them going forward too, and signing Tate for $23M guaranteed for a WR on the wrong side of 30 years old makes me roll my eyes...yet again.
The money to him only hurts us this year and we have tons next year so it really is a wash, costwise. I don't see how this is taking a step back. Unless you just want them to not field a team at all we still have to sign vets and in case we get some good bounces, be in position to capitalize on them.
We were never "tearing it down". If you feel that's what we should do I can't argue that, but you can't really fault DG (or even Mara) if they don't want to openly punt a season.
I don't know what to tell you man. You know what i'm talking about but you are fighting it regardless.
Consider them sunk costs...fine. But then go hard and deep now with it. So what do we do, we sign a 31 year old WR to play catch from a 39 year old guy we don’t want to cut because of loyalty.
You don’t just kind of dabble in restructuring or reorganizing. Less you want it to drag on forever...
The set of malcontents seems to be an everlasting list as this purging started back over a year ago, continued during the past regular season and is now reaching into this free agent. Did we shed them all yet?
Not yet, let's turn over the roster again. Obviously when you win 5 games, it's "the culture" not the shocking lack of talent and the head coach that's 15-39 for his life.