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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
He started last year like gangbusters - 1230 pass yards, 12 TD's 4 INT's in the first 3 games of the season. 70% passer.
The next 5 games were much more bad than good.
6 TD's, 8 picks, 4 fumbles, 0-5 record.
The real kicker is that he got benched against our horrendous defense after getting picked off 3 times in that game.
He's one of those guys who fools you for a few weeks, and then reminds you what he really is.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Fitzpatrick choked when all the Jets needed to do was beat a hapless Bills team in 2015 to make the playoffs.
Pretty sure FItzpatrick has never played in a playoff game... and he's not much younger than Eli.
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
It ranges from $5.5 million per year to possibly $10 million. The incentives to get it to $10 million per year are probably impossible to hit. Is that not cheap?
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
Never change Britt. At the maximum how is 10M a year not significantly cheaper than 23M?
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
The argument was always the cost PLUS Elis dead cap.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
Yes, neither QB is going to carry anyone to the playoffs at this point.
But, the idea is that NYG - for better or worse - don't appear to be punting on 2019, so, if the goal is to win football games, and build the offense around Barkley, improve the defense, and beef up the OL - wouldn't Eli be a more reliable guy to hitch the wagon to?
If we somehow made the playoffs with 9 wins - a movie we've seen before - I'd much rather go into January with Eli than Fitzpatrick.
Even in GB a couple years ago, Eli looked like he was ready to rock.
He's earned trust from me in big games. He may never play in another one... but, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't a guy I'd be comfortable heading into that situation with. He's more likely to throw the game away than give you a shot to win it.
RE: The argument was always the cost PLUS Elis dead cap.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
Yes, neither QB is going to carry anyone to the playoffs at this point.
But, the idea is that NYG - for better or worse - don't appear to be punting on 2019, so, if the goal is to win football games, and build the offense around Barkley, improve the defense, and beef up the OL - wouldn't Eli be a more reliable guy to hitch the wagon to?
If we somehow made the playoffs with 9 wins - a movie we've seen before - I'd much rather go into January with Eli than Fitzpatrick.
Even in GB a couple years ago, Eli looked like he was ready to rock.
He's earned trust from me in big games. He may never play in another one... but, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't a guy I'd be comfortable heading into that situation with. He's more likely to throw the game away than give you a shot to win it.
If somebody can still raise their game during the playoffs.. it basically means they are dogging it throughout the year.. You can't be bad for 3 years and then show up during the playoffs..
RE: The argument was always the cost PLUS Elis dead cap.
Was Eli "dogging it" in 2007 when he threw three pick-6's against Minnesota or did he just suck that day?
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
Really? I read on here all options would cost 11mil per year creating next to no savings. not 11 for two
Was Eli "dogging it" in 2007 when he threw three pick-6's against Minnesota or did he just suck that day?
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
He didn't dog it in 2007.. he was a young QB who had to mature.. besides he played good in some games and I remember he led all QBs in game winning drives that year.. but if he can raise his game if we had made the playoffs last season then it would beg the question why didn't you play better in the game vs the Jags or Eagles.. weren't those games important? I am not saying he is dogging anything.. its just that if the 2019 Eli made it to the playoffs because he was carried to the payoffs then he isn't going to raise his game in the playoffs..
BTW I agree with everything you said afterwards except I would go a step further and simply cut Eli, get any QB to play KL, Haskins (if we get him at 6) Murray another 3rd/4th round QB.. Rosen anyone thats young or cheap enough so we can use 11M to get a RT or a center who will be here for 4-5 years to protect the 2020/2021 QB..
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
Eli is what he is now - an aging QB who doesn't have the same moxie and ability he had in his prime.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
No. Ross wants Tua next year. He is willing to purge the roster and field the least competitive team to ensure the end result of picking at the top of the 2020 draft. Ross is one foot in the grave and hasn't won a damn thing. Tua is his superbowl.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
Eli Manning and a first-round pick on the same depth chart will be an agonizingly dramatic situation for the entire year.
Replacing Ryan Fitzpatrick would be orders of magnitude less emotionally packed than replacing Eli Manning.
Put it this way, if Manning is getting his ass kicked and the Giants find themselves 5-4, does this staff have the mandate Coughlin did to bench Warner? Will the staff have the authority to pick what's best for the longterm at the expense of clinging onto one more shot for Manning?
christian, the problem with that logic is that it continues to cater to the fans and go about business in a way that is meant to appease them (us), rather than just removing that from the equation as much as possible and doing what's best for the Giants.
I need to be clear (even though I think I already have been...) that going the Eli route is absolutely not my first choice.
But, if we're not going with Eli and he's not here (we already know he will be, so this is hypothetical), there's no point in bringing in a stopgap. Either you're trading for Rosen, who already got thrown to the wolves last year, or a QB in the first round this year who should be able to take his lumps immediately.
Haskins is a guy I've made the argument for as someone who could probably benefit from some time watching with the clipboard... but even with Haskins, it's not the worst idea to just have him start out of the gates.
If we're going to go the "KC model" route, and have the next guy here before Eli is gone, I don't think too many fans are going to be upset with the Giants pulling the plug and giving the ball to the rookie if we're losing games.
I don't even think fans would have been that upset if it had been Davis Webb in 2017. Even knowing now that he's not any good. It's just that it was Geno Smith... it was like a major slap in the face.
There's a pretty large faction of Giants fans who want them to move on from Eli... I don't think that decision is going to be met with much resistance at all as long as it's in favor of a 1st rd rookie or young guy we've made a trade for (i.e.. Rosen)
I think throwing a guy right in without a vet ready to take the reigns is irresponsible. Even the Cards had Bradford in for 3 games.
A rookie might not be ready to function, and you're trying to build a team, teach guys the offense, etc. and you need someone who can keep the lights on.
As far as fan sentiment, I couldn't care less. I'd rather drop a guy too early than too late, and just being able to function isn't enough to pay a guy 23M.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
I think that's lames as heck, and an awful way to run a team -- but I don't think that's a limited sentiment. I think there's a huge contingent of fans who are loyal to Manning no matter what, and I'd lump John Mara in that group.
I'd just rather get beyond that drama now, cut Manning, save some coin, sign a baby sitter and draft a QB.
From a cash perspective, it made sense to move on from Tannehill, but he's probably worse than Fitz. Same with Bortles. They'd have been better off signing Bortles to QB this team.
Fitz is not good; no doubt about that. But he is going to play well in a handful of games and probably help them win 3-4. With Bortles, they probably win 2. That is my opinion, anyway.
Eli is what he is now - an aging QB who doesn't have the same moxie and ability he had in his prime.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
I think the Giants will be better than most people think.
Fitzpatrick averaged over 9 YPA last year. That is a big number.
Yea except hes worse than Eli and you have to pay dead Eli money. So its not really better value. We go over this every day here lol... I love how everyone ignores this.
Cant let go of that extra 5 million or so that Eli will count against the precious cap this year compare to some other unknown and likely terrible vet qb.
So. Fucking. Annoying. Guys, just move on already.
But if you really think that fitz gives the giants the same chance to win games right now over Eli youre fucking lost. The guy has a good month every year, same shit Eli does in his sleep, then loses games in such mind blowing fashion time and time again. Hes not better than Eli. Never been better than Eli and never will be better than Eli.
Eli takes too many sacks behind a terrible OL. Thats his major flaw.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
Name one poster who said this.
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
Quote:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we arent walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell years all over again.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we arent walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell years all over again.
Then you, like DJM, didn't really read what I posted.
I don't think a placeholder QB is going to win more games than Manning.
I think the Giants should cut ties with Manning, draft a QB and sign a placeholde, and plan for the future. Precisely what the Giants did when Manning came here.
I think it will be unnecessarily distracting to deal with Manning and a highly drafted rookie on the same roster. Especially because I think the Giants will be pretty bad to start the year, and the calls for a rookie will come quickly.
See, I just dont get these Miami Tanking comments. Fitz has virtually untanked every team in recent memory. The man refuses to go down without a fight. Hes the last guy you would want to bring along to drive the boat over the cliff. Either Miami is absurdly unaware, or the rhetoric is typical fandumb.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
The thing is, this isn't baseball and Jeter. The eagles and the cowboys aren't going to be giving him gifts before the game. Eli can't hide on the field. He is going to get creamed in the field and in the media and get booed at home a lot. Fairwell tours don't work in the NFL
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
They never were. There is only one sweepstakes as far as Ross is concerned and that is the Tua Sweepstakes.
He started last year like gangbusters - 1230 pass yards, 12 TD's 4 INT's in the first 3 games of the season. 70% passer.
The next 5 games were much more bad than good.
6 TD's, 8 picks, 4 fumbles, 0-5 record.
The real kicker is that he got benched against our horrendous defense after getting picked off 3 times in that game.
He's one of those guys who fools you for a few weeks, and then reminds you what he really is.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Fitzpatrick choked when all the Jets needed to do was beat a hapless Bills team in 2015 to make the playoffs.
Pretty sure FItzpatrick has never played in a playoff game... and he's not much younger than Eli.
lol
lol
Hats off to the guy from Harvard for finding a way to stick around in this league for as long as he has.
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
It ranges from $5.5 million per year to possibly $10 million. The incentives to get it to $10 million per year are probably impossible to hit. Is that not cheap?
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Adam Schefter
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
Never change Britt. At the maximum how is 10M a year not significantly cheaper than 23M?
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
Quote:
Fitzpatrick is a mirage.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
Yes, neither QB is going to carry anyone to the playoffs at this point.
But, the idea is that NYG - for better or worse - don't appear to be punting on 2019, so, if the goal is to win football games, and build the offense around Barkley, improve the defense, and beef up the OL - wouldn't Eli be a more reliable guy to hitch the wagon to?
If we somehow made the playoffs with 9 wins - a movie we've seen before - I'd much rather go into January with Eli than Fitzpatrick.
Even in GB a couple years ago, Eli looked like he was ready to rock.
He's earned trust from me in big games. He may never play in another one... but, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't a guy I'd be comfortable heading into that situation with. He's more likely to throw the game away than give you a shot to win it.
So Elis dead cap + Fitzpatricks base amount come to $11 million, which is $6 million in savings.
Youre using a difference of $2 million to say its not cheap?
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In comment 14343633 arcarsenal said:
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Fitzpatrick is a mirage.
If it's a pure value discussion, then I suppose you could make an argument that any improvement you get with Eli is totally offset by the fact that Fitzpatrick's cap hit will be like 1/4 of what we're paying for Eli.
If NYG think they can win games this year, I don't really agree with them - but I'd trust Eli a heck of a lot more than Fitzpatrick if that's the case.
Thats the point tough.. Niether will take us to the playoffs.. If we get there it won't be because of Eli like 2011.. if thats the case take the cheaper guy sign a center or RT with eh savings and then in 202 we have both a RT and a Young QB from draft.. this thing with Eli is ridiculous.. why does he get a leash 4 years longer than TC? Much much longer than Tuck? weren't they also responsible for the 2 SB..
Yes, neither QB is going to carry anyone to the playoffs at this point.
But, the idea is that NYG - for better or worse - don't appear to be punting on 2019, so, if the goal is to win football games, and build the offense around Barkley, improve the defense, and beef up the OL - wouldn't Eli be a more reliable guy to hitch the wagon to?
If we somehow made the playoffs with 9 wins - a movie we've seen before - I'd much rather go into January with Eli than Fitzpatrick.
Even in GB a couple years ago, Eli looked like he was ready to rock.
He's earned trust from me in big games. He may never play in another one... but, Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't a guy I'd be comfortable heading into that situation with. He's more likely to throw the game away than give you a shot to win it.
If somebody can still raise their game during the playoffs.. it basically means they are dogging it throughout the year.. You can't be bad for 3 years and then show up during the playoffs..
Well, he can be bad for 2-3 million, 5M/yr, or even $10M/yr.
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
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Miami is giving its new quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick a two-year, $11 million deal with incentives that could boost it to between $17 and $20 million, per source.
Wasn't that the reason why we should sign him over keeping Eli?
Really? I read on here all options would cost 11mil per year creating next to no savings. not 11 for two
In 2013, Eli threw a league-leading 27 picks - and just 18 TD passes.
Dogging it?
Threw 30 scores in 2014 and 35 in 2015. The 2016 team won 11 games despite a less productive year for him. He also had virtually no running game - close to the worst in football.
2017 was a complete mess from top to bottom.
If I had my way, we'd flip non-1st rd picks for Rosen, continue to build the OL, beef up the defense, and go that route. I also like Haskins and can make a case for Murray.
But, it's not that difficult for me to envision Eli being respectable with a better OL, another year of Saquon, and a defense on the other side of the ball that isn't one of the worst in the league.
It's not the first route I'd go, but as long as we don't do things to sacrifice the post-Eli future for the sake of right now, I think most of what we're doing can be parlayed and still benefit us beyond just 2019.
Anything being done to repair the offensive line is a plus for now and later. We should continue to focus on young talent and future cap flexibility and work on continuing to rebuild the defense.
A guy like Fitzpatrick just doesn't do anything for me. There's a reason why he's been through 1/4 of the teams in this league. He makes you think he's a bargain for a bit, and then the wheels fall off and it just goes to shit.
He fooled Buffalo, and then a couple years later he was leading the league in picks.
The Jets were his only stop along the way where he had a winning season - and he laid an egg in Week 17 with the playoffs on the line. Got picked off 3 times... including the final drive to seal it for Buffalo when the Jets still had a shot to win the game.
The following year, he went 3-8 as a starter there and that was that.
He wasn't any good in Tennessee or Houston after Buffalo gave up on him.
TB benched him against us after a dreadful performance.
And he's not even much younger than Eli. He's like a year or two younger.
From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
He didn't dog it in 2007.. he was a young QB who had to mature.. besides he played good in some games and I remember he led all QBs in game winning drives that year.. but if he can raise his game if we had made the playoffs last season then it would beg the question why didn't you play better in the game vs the Jags or Eagles.. weren't those games important? I am not saying he is dogging anything.. its just that if the 2019 Eli made it to the playoffs because he was carried to the payoffs then he isn't going to raise his game in the playoffs..
BTW I agree with everything you said afterwards except I would go a step further and simply cut Eli, get any QB to play KL, Haskins (if we get him at 6) Murray another 3rd/4th round QB.. Rosen anyone thats young or cheap enough so we can use 11M to get a RT or a center who will be here for 4-5 years to protect the 2020/2021 QB..
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
If we do end up acquiring a young QB, he is unlikely to do much more than sit and watch Eli.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
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From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
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the Rosen sweepstakes :)
They never were. There is only one sweepstakes as far as Ross is concerned and that is the Tua Sweepstakes.
I'm starting to believe there is only one team in the Rosen sweepstakes - the Giants.
No. Ross wants Tua next year. He is willing to purge the roster and field the least competitive team to ensure the end result of picking at the top of the 2020 draft. Ross is one foot in the grave and hasn't won a damn thing. Tua is his superbowl.
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In comment 14343820 arcarsenal said:
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From a cost:production standpoint, you might find a way for Fitzpatrick to squeak ahead in a comparison to Eli... but the difference isn't big enough for me to really think it should have been entertained.
To me, at this point, either you go young, or you go with Eli.
Guys like Foles, Fitzpatrick, etc. should just be thrown out the window. They've already signed elsewhere, thankfully.
The entire point of a babysitter is to 1) operate the offense adequately in the event a rookie cant, especially during camp and in the lead up to the season 2) extract the emotional component of benching Manning when the rookie is ready.
I dont think any fans preference is a babysitter without drafting a QB.
#2 just shouldn't factor in.
If we're losing games, and the rookie is on the sidelines, fans will be fine with the switch.
When you try to replace a Giants legend with a Jets reject... that's what causes an uproar.
Eli Manning and a first-round pick on the same depth chart will be an agonizingly dramatic situation for the entire year.
Replacing Ryan Fitzpatrick would be orders of magnitude less emotionally packed than replacing Eli Manning.
Put it this way, if Manning is getting his ass kicked and the Giants find themselves 5-4, does this staff have the mandate Coughlin did to bench Warner? Will the staff have the authority to pick what's best for the longterm at the expense of clinging onto one more shot for Manning?
I need to be clear (even though I think I already have been...) that going the Eli route is absolutely not my first choice.
But, if we're not going with Eli and he's not here (we already know he will be, so this is hypothetical), there's no point in bringing in a stopgap. Either you're trading for Rosen, who already got thrown to the wolves last year, or a QB in the first round this year who should be able to take his lumps immediately.
Haskins is a guy I've made the argument for as someone who could probably benefit from some time watching with the clipboard... but even with Haskins, it's not the worst idea to just have him start out of the gates.
If we're going to go the "KC model" route, and have the next guy here before Eli is gone, I don't think too many fans are going to be upset with the Giants pulling the plug and giving the ball to the rookie if we're losing games.
I don't even think fans would have been that upset if it had been Davis Webb in 2017. Even knowing now that he's not any good. It's just that it was Geno Smith... it was like a major slap in the face.
There's a pretty large faction of Giants fans who want them to move on from Eli... I don't think that decision is going to be met with much resistance at all as long as it's in favor of a 1st rd rookie or young guy we've made a trade for (i.e.. Rosen)
A rookie might not be ready to function, and you're trying to build a team, teach guys the offense, etc. and you need someone who can keep the lights on.
As far as fan sentiment, I couldn't care less. I'd rather drop a guy too early than too late, and just being able to function isn't enough to pay a guy 23M.
But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
I think that's lames as heck, and an awful way to run a team -- but I don't think that's a limited sentiment. I think there's a huge contingent of fans who are loyal to Manning no matter what, and I'd lump John Mara in that group.
I'd just rather get beyond that drama now, cut Manning, save some coin, sign a baby sitter and draft a QB.
Fitz is not good; no doubt about that. But he is going to play well in a handful of games and probably help them win 3-4. With Bortles, they probably win 2. That is my opinion, anyway.
Eli wasn't awful against JAX - but the OL was still pretty bad early in the season. I felt they played better in the 2nd half - worked up to about average. But before that, they were still pretty bad.
That 2nd loss to PHI was on Shurmur more than anyone else. He handled that game terribly after the half. We had them beat.
I'm not under any illusions regarding what Eli is at this point, and like I said, if I had my way, we'd be moving on now - and going with a young guy immediately.
But if we're going with a vet?
I don't want anything to do with retreads. I'd rather just go with Eli for one more season.
I'd still believe in Eli to rekindle a little spark in a January game if we were to get there. I'd be petrified that someone like Fitzpatrick would throw the game away in the first half.
I think the Giants will be better than most people think.
Not 4-12 category but solid, maybe 9-7.
Yea except hes worse than Eli and you have to pay dead Eli money. So its not really better value. We go over this every day here lol... I love how everyone ignores this.
So. Fucking. Annoying. Guys, just move on already.
Eli takes too many sacks behind a terrible OL. Thats his major flaw.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Name one poster who said this.
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we arent walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell years all over again.
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But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
Name one poster who said this.
Why do some of you twist shit around? No one says this with a straight face. Theres a huge difference between letting Eli play out the string here rather than swapping him out for a lesser qualified or enigmatic veteran.
Agree with djm here, Eli is our best option to win any games this year. Why in the hell would anyone want to bring in a clown like Fitzpatrick? The money thing with Eli is overblown, there is no one to sign that is a long term solution in FA at this point. He has one year left on his deal and hope we arent walking into the Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Danny Kanell years all over again.
Then you, like DJM, didn't really read what I posted.
I don't think a placeholder QB is going to win more games than Manning.
I think the Giants should cut ties with Manning, draft a QB and sign a placeholde, and plan for the future. Precisely what the Giants did when Manning came here.
I think it will be unnecessarily distracting to deal with Manning and a highly drafted rookie on the same roster. Especially because I think the Giants will be pretty bad to start the year, and the calls for a rookie will come quickly.
See, I just dont get these Miami Tanking comments. Fitz has virtually untanked every team in recent memory. The man refuses to go down without a fight. Hes the last guy you would want to bring along to drive the boat over the cliff. Either Miami is absurdly unaware, or the rhetoric is typical fandumb.
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
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But you have guys on this site saying Manning deserves to play this year out of respect to what he's accomplished.
....
I am not dragging Chris into this to dump on him. He's a good, even tempered dude, but:
RE: RE: Why is anyone surprised at this ?
Chris in Philly : 3/14/2019 12:50 am :
If its an obvious tear down, then it doesnt matter if Eli is still here or not. His salary is not preventing them from signing some mythical major free agent, so all of this drama is for nothing. Whether they draft a guy this year or next, it doesnt matter in the end if the let him finish out 2019 or drop him tomorrow. So just let him finish 2019 if he wants to. Those 2 Super Bowls earns him that. This organization failed him over and over with their bungling of the OL for years. If he wants to be here for another year, let him be here.
Y'know, I'm tired of watching the Giants lose, and I might be fine with them parting ways with Eli. However, I don't believe for one minute that that's what they're going to do. That's not how the Maras want to run their business. They're going to give Eli a season to say goodbye and be celebrated. They're not going to just cut him. They just won't. Maybe they should, but they won't. They're too sentimental.
The thing is, this isn't baseball and Jeter. The eagles and the cowboys aren't going to be giving him gifts before the game. Eli can't hide on the field. He is going to get creamed in the field and in the media and get booed at home a lot. Fairwell tours don't work in the NFL