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Landon Collins - Best offer was a 4th round Pick

ZogZerg : 3/18/2019 12:05 pm
This was buried in the DG thread.

According to Dunleavy:

Quote:


Ryan Dunleavy
& #10004;
@rydunleavy

Gettleman says reports he was offered a first-round pick for Landon Collins aren't close to true. As I reported, the best they were offered was a 4th: https://www.nj.com/giants/2019/03/giants-best-offer-for-landon-collins-before-trade-deadline-was-4th-round-nfl-draft-pick-can-they-get-better-now.html … #giants #nygiants #redskins


A lot of crying over not trading Collins. I think it was widely believed on BBI that DG was offered a 3rd.
Who knows what the truth really is...
Well a 4th would've been better than 0.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/18/2019 12:07 pm : link
.
RE: Well a 4th would've been better than 0.  
ZogZerg : 3/18/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14344947 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


Well, we'll see what the Comp Pick is (or isn't) when all of the dust settles on FA signings.
sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
Dave : 3/18/2019 12:10 pm : link
that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?
Chris Bisagnano said this as well.  
Brown Recluse : 3/18/2019 12:12 pm : link
There never was a third.

And for everyone who is now suddenly jumping to the narrative of "well why didn't he take it!" - you'll probably never know. Things change. Its pretty obvious though that he'd prefer to get something from a player before they leave than to let them walk for nothing.
RE: sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
giants#1 : 3/18/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14344954 Dave said:
Quote:
that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?


If he took the 4th, BBI would be complaining he can't negotiate and didn't hold out for a 3rd!

The comp pick will be a 3d  
Pete in VA : 3/18/2019 12:14 pm : link
Unless it is cancelled out by a late and big signing. There aren't any free agents available who would cancel out Collins'$14,000,000 per year
RE: RE: sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14344967 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14344954 Dave said:


Quote:


that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?



If he took the 4th, BBI would be complaining he can't negotiate and didn't hold out for a 3rd!


LOL, yup.

If he took the 4th, he'd get killed for "giving Collins away"
Should have traded him even if it was for a 4th  
Go Terps : 3/18/2019 12:16 pm : link
Though I'm skeptical he'd be truthful about what his best offer was at this point.
RE: RE: RE: sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/18/2019 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14344974 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14344967 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 14344954 Dave said:


Quote:


that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?



If he took the 4th, BBI would be complaining he can't negotiate and didn't hold out for a 3rd!




LOL, yup.

If he took the 4th, he'd get killed for "giving Collins away"


Which is what he did anyway, they let him walk for nothing. Nothing about Collins should have taken the front office by surprise.

You can approximate the franchise tag value for safeties with a little bit of simple math. Having an idea of what it would cost to re-sign him is a phone call to an agent. There really isn't a valid reason for just letting him go like it's some spare part.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 12:19 pm : link
I'm not opining on what he should or shouldn't have done, I'm just telling you that if he took a 4th, the narrative here would be that he's a shitty negotiator, didn't get proper value, and that he gave Collins away.

Don't believe me?

Check the Beckham threads regarding the compensation there.
The people bitching about the Beckham compensation are ignorant  
Go Terps : 3/18/2019 12:20 pm : link
The fact still remains we got nothing for Collins when we could have had something.
3rd or 4th is of little consequence  
AcesUp : 3/18/2019 12:20 pm : link
When he isn't in your longterm plans and the alternative is a contingent future 3. He's in the firesale category if that's how you see him. 2019 4th + a contingent 2020 5th round comp pick is still better than a contingent 2020 3rd that could be zero. The extent of the mistake is being overblown in the media, it's the decision making involved in the mistake is what is more concerning. It's a mistake, I've moved on but the spin involved is stupid.
Actually that offer  
Harvest Blend : 3/18/2019 12:23 pm : link
of a 4th was essentially a 5th in BBI Land. Isn't that how it works?
RE: The people bitching about the Beckham compensation are ignorant  
UConn4523 : 3/18/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14345000 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The fact still remains we got nothing for Collins when we could have had something.


I think he probably wanted to but held out hope that he can work something out with him, and worst case from there would be a comp pick.

Maybe he should have taken the sure thing (a 4th), time will tell. Its possible franchising was on the table then, but the injury happened and then that went out the window.
RE: .  
Mr. Bungle : 3/18/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14344994 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm not opining on what he should or shouldn't have done, I'm just telling you that if he took a 4th, the narrative here would be that he's a shitty negotiator, didn't get proper value, and that he gave Collins away.

Don't believe me?

Check the Beckham threads regarding the compensation there.

People bitched about the returns on the Apple and Snacks trades.

They absolutely would have bitched about a 4th for Collins.
RE: Actually that offer  
figgy2989 : 3/18/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14345010 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
of a 4th was essentially a 5th in BBI Land. Isn't that how it works?


But if it was an early 4th, it is essentially like another 3rd!

I can say for certain  
figgy2989 : 3/18/2019 12:26 pm : link
If he just traded LC for a 4th, you bet your ass this place would have been in melt down mode and rightfully so.

That is the benefit of hindsight in these types of situations.
Hindsight is 20/20  
Jim Bur(n)t : 3/18/2019 12:27 pm : link
What is done, is done.. Moving on.
RE: RE: Actually that offer  
giants#1 : 3/18/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14345023 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
In comment 14345010 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


of a 4th was essentially a 5th in BBI Land. Isn't that how it works?



But if it was an early 4th, it is essentially like another 3rd!


It would've been to a playoff team and likely KC.
He is a good player and all  
Beer Man : 3/18/2019 12:31 pm : link
But in his contract year, that is probably the best the team could get.
and IF a 4th is the best he got  
giants#1 : 3/18/2019 12:32 pm : link
then DG will probably get the last laugh as they are currently set to get a 3rd round comp pick for him. (Tate will cancel Jamon Brown).
SO Matt Miller with PFF lied  
montanagiant : 3/18/2019 12:34 pm : link
When he claimed a 1st was offered and then refused to name the team that made the offer
RE: RE: sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
giantsFC : 3/18/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14344967 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14344954 Dave said:


Quote:


that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?



If he took the 4th, BBI would be complaining he can't negotiate and didn't hold out for a 3rd!


So true.

But really, it’s just adds to the history on a lot of bad moves this guy has done w good players over his career
So teams weren't willing to offer a 3rd round pick  
chuckydee9 : 3/18/2019 12:41 pm : link
but were willing to pay a strong safety $80+ M? One of that is a fact.. the other just doesn't make sense.. Wehave no idea who offered what.. DG isn't telling us the truth.. if he is then there is no reason to believe him..
RE: .  
USAF NYG Fan : 3/18/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14344994 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm not opining on what he should or shouldn't have done, I'm just telling you that if he took a 4th, the narrative here would be that he's a shitty negotiator, didn't get proper value, and that he gave Collins away.

Don't believe me?

Check the Beckham threads regarding the compensation there.

Couldn't agree with you more on this point!

I also think the risk associated with getting a compensatory pick in 2020 is more valuable than another 4th round pick this year. All we know about the formula for compensatory picks is

1. Average annual salary with his new team (likely the biggest factor). $14 million per year. Yep.
2. Playing time with his new team. Likely will play every snap on a defense I suspect might be on the field longer than the offense.
3. Post-Season honors with his new team. Not likely.

Of course beyond somehow grabbing Russel Wilson, I'm in the get a QB from the better class next year camp. Rosen for no higher than a 2nd wouldn't hurt my feelings though.
But it would have likely been a late fourth...  
the mike : 3/18/2019 12:44 pm : link
So it would have really been a fifth. And since it would have been done last season, it would have to be considered a sixth because of the time value of draft picks... And since interest rates were relatively high last October because of the speculation of the Government Shutdown, it most certainly would have been discounted to a seventh...

Gettleman has navigated this brutal terrain like a seasoned Delta Force command leader ruthlessly taking enemy territory without the enemy having the slightest suspicion of his actions... Collins and OBJ will go down as two of the most successful foistings in the history of sports...
RE: .  
giants#1 : 3/18/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14344994 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm not opining on what he should or shouldn't have done, I'm just telling you that if he took a 4th, the narrative here would be that he's a shitty negotiator, didn't get proper value, and that he gave Collins away.

Don't believe me?

Check the Beckham threads regarding the compensation there.


Or Snacks threads. Hell, people even thought the compensation for Eli Apple wasn't enough!
if we can get a 3rd round comp pick  
SHO'NUFF : 3/18/2019 12:46 pm : link
all is forgiven... hell, I'll take a 4th at this point.
Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
chuckydee9 : 3/18/2019 12:53 pm : link
I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..
The team that offered him that contract  
gmen9892 : 3/18/2019 1:04 pm : link
Is one of the worst run organizations in football. That doesn't mean squat about what was offered to trade for him during the season.
RE: Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 1:18 pm : link
In comment 14345103 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..


What does the contract he signed have to do with what teams were willing to offer at the deadline?

Would you give up a 3rd round pick for a few games of a safety you weren't likely to re-sign? Collins' contract was expiring, so he didn't have a whole lot of value.

The Redskins gave up a 4 for Clinton-Dix, who was in a similar boat.

That's pretty much what the market was. You can either believe it or don't.
RE: Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
SJGiant : 3/18/2019 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14345103 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..


The Redskins signed him to the large contract. .. that organization is known for overpaying for free agents while Snyder is the owner.
Still happy to see  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 3/18/2019 1:26 pm : link
Weasel Dan Snyder handing out stupid big contracts.
RE: Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
Leg of Theismann : 3/18/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14345103 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..


Your thinking makes no sense. The whole point is that Collins's value was low because his contract was expiring. Trading a 3rd rounder for him and getting him on your team was not a guarantee of anything except that he was going to play the last few games of 2018. Whatever team wanted him was going to have to sign him for $14M/year. If you're going to do that (Redskins) why give up a draft pick for him? Your idea of just "franchising" him wouldn't have worked, the tag also would have been worth a ton of money and a franchise tag does not guarantee the player is going to play for you (as we have seen as of late).
RE: RE: Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
chuckydee9 : 3/18/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14345236 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14345103 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..



Your thinking makes no sense. The whole point is that Collins's value was low because his contract was expiring. Trading a 3rd rounder for him and getting him on your team was not a guarantee of anything except that he was going to play the last few games of 2018. Whatever team wanted him was going to have to sign him for $14M/year. If you're going to do that (Redskins) why give up a draft pick for him? Your idea of just "franchising" him wouldn't have worked, the tag also would have been worth a ton of money and a franchise tag does not guarantee the player is going to play for you (as we have seen as of late).


Franchise tag number for collins would've been $11M.. Collins hasn't made real NFL money to give up on $11M.. This isn't anywhere close to being on the same level Leveon Bell.. If I am a team that knows we need safety help and I'd be willing to pay $84M for to a player.. I'd rather have them franchised.. its guarantees me that a player would not play anywhere else and has no where else they can get offers from.. You know how much easier negotiations are when you the only party a player can deal with..
Besides a said player signs somewhere else  
chuckydee9 : 3/18/2019 2:06 pm : link
then the team that traded a 3rd round pick for him would be able to get a 3rd back because he was overpaid in the market.. It makes no sense for them to have not offered a 3rd for a safety they'd be willing to pay $84M.. None..
RE: The people bitching about the Beckham compensation are ignorant  
speedywheels : 3/18/2019 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14345000 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The fact still remains we got nothing for Collins when we could have had something.


Depends how the comp pick situation plays out. Could end up with the same 4th. Or maybe a 3rd
Then  
AcidTest : 3/18/2019 2:11 pm : link
I can understand why they didn't trade him, although they certainly knew that he was unlikely to resign. The third round comp pick is likely, but not a guarantee.
RE: RE: RE: Do you guys actually believe it because DG said it?  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14345353 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 14345236 Leg of Theismann said:


Quote:


In comment 14345103 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


I mean a team offered Collins $80+M.. You dont think they would've offered a high 3rd instead and franchise him?

Nothing about DG makes me believe that this was the case.. it doesn't make sense.. Its just as believable as me saying Synder called me and said that He wanted collins in the middle of the year and he had offered 2 first..



Your thinking makes no sense. The whole point is that Collins's value was low because his contract was expiring. Trading a 3rd rounder for him and getting him on your team was not a guarantee of anything except that he was going to play the last few games of 2018. Whatever team wanted him was going to have to sign him for $14M/year. If you're going to do that (Redskins) why give up a draft pick for him? Your idea of just "franchising" him wouldn't have worked, the tag also would have been worth a ton of money and a franchise tag does not guarantee the player is going to play for you (as we have seen as of late).



Franchise tag number for collins would've been $11M.. Collins hasn't made real NFL money to give up on $11M.. This isn't anywhere close to being on the same level Leveon Bell.. If I am a team that knows we need safety help and I'd be willing to pay $84M for to a player.. I'd rather have them franchised.. its guarantees me that a player would not play anywhere else and has no where else they can get offers from.. You know how much easier negotiations are when you the only party a player can deal with..


Collins didn't want to be franchised. I guess you could say "tough shit" and do it anyway, but they didn't want to deal with more of a headache.

We got better and cheaper @ safety. What is the issue here?

We're probably going to wind up with the comp pick anyway.
We got cheaper, yes  
Greg from LI : 3/18/2019 2:13 pm : link
Better remains to be seen
RE: sheesh, so why not take the dagum 4th?  
djm : 3/18/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14344954 Dave said:
Quote:
that is the weird part taht will never go away

4th this yr, v hopes for a compensatory 3rd next?


Because we likely get a 3rd or 4th in the comp formula.
RE: RE: The people bitching about the Beckham compensation are ignorant  
Go Terps : 3/18/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14345369 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 14345000 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The fact still remains we got nothing for Collins when we could have had something.



Depends how the comp pick situation plays out. Could end up with the same 4th. Or maybe a 3rd


Signing Tate likely cost us the comp pick.
RE: We got cheaper, yes  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14345395 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Better remains to be seen


I'll gladly take the more versatile 23 year old safety who didn't just need shoulder surgery.

Pretty safe bet that Peppers/Bethea will be a better tandem than Collins/Riley.
Collins and You would be a better tandem than Collins and Riley.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/18/2019 2:47 pm : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/18/2019 2:52 pm : link
I'd still rather have Peppers than Collins going forward - especially factoring age, health, and cost.

Collins is a good player. His 2016 appears to be the outlier right now, though. The safety position isn't going to only improve by way of Riley not starting. I think both spots will see better production than we got last year.
He should have taken the 4th  
Vanzetti : 3/18/2019 3:21 pm : link
That way it is locked in and it is a "real" pick not a sandwich pick at the end of the round.

Right now, if I had to guess, Giants will get a 5th round comp pick pick--and that can probably only go down since Giants don't have any free agents who will sign big contracts elsaewhere.
He would have absolutely been shredded  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 3/18/2019 5:59 pm : link
last year if he traded Collins for a 4th. FOH. I have a moon to sell you if you think that's not true.
Also...  
Giantfan in skinland : 3/18/2019 6:02 pm : link
Worth noting, we're talking a guaranteed 2019 4th vs. a possible 2020 3rd. That's a no brainer for a team with a million current holes. Cover up is worse than the crime here...but Gettleman's justification is nonsense.

Btw, I think Dunleavy's report is nonsense too. Very convenient that a source tells him in March that they couldn't get better than what they will get as a comp pick. This is what Dunleavy said at the trade deadline:
Quote:
The single biggest decision the Giants have to make in the hours leading up to the deadline is this: Do we plan to give Collins a long-term big-money contract extension?

If yes, they should keep him. If no, they should trade him for a 2019 third-round pick or better, because compensation draft picks for losing premium free agents begin at the end of the third round and do not come into effect for one year. So a compensation pick for Collins is in the 2020 draft.

The NFL Draft compensation pick formula is extremely complicated and not finalized until later, so there is no solid guarantee of Collins warranting a third-rounder.
RE: The people bitching about the Beckham compensation are ignorant  
.McL. : 3/18/2019 7:39 pm : link
In comment 14345000 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The fact still remains we got nothing for Collins when we could have had something.

It certainly seems we are going to get comp-3rd...

I am skeptical as well that only a 4th was offered. I think DG was holding out for a 2nd know he could get a 3rd as comp.
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