Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the cloud hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a rot that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the cloud hanging over this organization is Eli and the rot that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone elses.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as its possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on continuity with the quarterback as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Elis familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying Eli, its not you. its us. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a no trade clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and Im not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Dont mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time Ive ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. Ive never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google Eli Manning emotional and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasnt his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things in-house so they dont cause distractions.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. Theres a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. Thats a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didnt accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has it and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I dont mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didnt support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were corrupted by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players dont see the above. They dont know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. Thats the cloud. Thats the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you cant see what is plainly obvious, then lets look at big picture
Twitter PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
from the keyboard
anyone who works in any competitive field understands that sentiment and its not ideal.
the personal attacks on him are a bit much.
Through at least 2016 Eli Manning was playing the same as he ever was. He led them on numerous 4Q wins and played as good of a first half as he ever has in GB.
Was he the reason for the mutiny in '17 and lackluster season last year? Maybe. His play was certainly a contributing factor. But the rot started well before that - as evidenced by the defense literally going over a cliff each of those 2 seasons, and in total 3 of the last 4.
With the line fixed, we will see if Eli really can still play at a high level
I got through about 3 paragraphs of this and quit.
I thank BBI for my profits. Poor Odell is gone..... boo freakity hoo.
Thats the thing.. with the amount of resources it takes for him to look decent how can you field a good defense? We have tons of resources we had to use to get him this OL.. even then we still need to spend even more to get a C and a RT.. Eli will also have the best RB in the league behind him to keep the LB honest.. He has a first round TE, another TE where we spent a good chunk of money. We have a 2nd Rd WR and then another one who is costing us about 10-12M this year.. if everything around him needs to be perfect for him to play decent then why pay him the $23M..
No matter how you put it.. There is Eli then there is everyone else for this franchise.. whether it be Cruz, Nicks, JPP, OBJ, Tuck, TC, JR, KG..
He'll also have two more Super Bowls than most QB's in NFL history and 1 more than nearly all of them with very few exceptions.
He's in a position to reach that unfortunate "milestone" by way of his durability and longevity.
I really hope we find our next QB sooner than later, but I'm getting tired of the way people are fucking trashing our own guy left and right and trying to now turn his career into nothing more than the track record of some mediocre loser.
Comical
Of probably 10,694, just from this fucking schmuck.
The levels of horseshit at this point are just way, way beyond....
We all know we need to find the next guy.
The only thing Eli Manning is guilty of is wanting to play football.
Of probably 10,694, just from this fucking schmuck.
I think Les in TO is the President. He made a comment in DGs presser that Eli dilfered us to 2 SBs. I cant believe he hasnt been banned yet either.
He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......
However, I think the OP's take is a lot closer to the truth than that of many Eli enthusiasts who think Eli is just a solid OL away from playing like an above average QB.
The Giants should have moved on from Eli.
You know whats going to happen? You will see lots of 5-yard checkdowns on Third and eight, after opposing defenses stack the box to limit the run on the first two downs, and Tate and Barkley will each have 100 catches for 500 yards by game 8. The reaction will be, Eli needs a vertical threat, not his fault nobody can get separation!!! Oops. And the defense needs to play 40 min a game and still not allow any points in the 4th quarter!!
I am not reacting to Gettlemans press conference speak until the draft. If we dont bring in any viable alternatives, then we will likely never know if Eli was ever a problem here during these last few years. I think the organization wants it that way, and most fans probably feel the same.
He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......
And Favre's heroic 2009 nfc Championship game loss.
You know whats going to happen? You will see lots of 5-yard checkdowns on Third and eight, after opposing defenses stack the box to limit the run on the first two downs, and Tate and Barkley will each have 100 catches for 500 yards by game 8. The reaction will be, Eli needs a vertical threat, not his fault nobody can get separation!!! Oops. And the defense needs to play 40 min a game and still not allow any points in the 4th quarter!!
Its always been Eli's fault for you. FFS. You could be twosteps brother and I wouldnt be shocked.
He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......
Oh yes... I remember that well.
A lot of Giants fans never deserved Eli.
Mara is dying to stand on that super bowl stage one more time and, ala Pat Bowlen, shout, This ones for Eli!
The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.
This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".
I was when I argued for Eli all those years and he was criticized after every single throw
I was when I argued for dismissing TC
I was when I argued against hiring McAdoo
I was when I argued to trade Odell last offseason
Always a good sign when people can only personally attack you but not your argument.
2. Since 2012, the Giants have ranked 20th in defense in PPG, with 2016 them coming in 2 to alter the stats.
All Eli's fault though.
Paul Hembekides
Verified account @PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
12:04 PM - 18 Mar 2019
Answering questions about your future with the team with statements like "i don't know" meant Odell is either
- dumb
-calculated
He is not dumb, so i'll go with calculated. He knew exactly what he was doing.
You're overthinking this. The problems here stem from bad drafting and bad luck. Pugh, Richburg & Flowers were all misses. Geoff Schwartz was banged up all the time. Obviously Pugh was too. Eli Apple was a miss. Collins is a good player, but flawed and also injury prone.
Reese failed miserably in finding depth later on in the draft and with UDFA's. Bad luck happens - Olivier Vernon was 25-26 when he signed here with no injury history. How'd that turn out for us? (ties in to Terps point of not putting your eggs in the big contract basket)
Reese and Benny Mac never had the same vision to a point where Reese was signing guys and they weren't touching the field (Ellison) That is fucking embarrassing.
Stop trying to pin blame on one guy. Its stupid. Francesa may be a moron most of the time but he wasn't wrong yesterday when he said this franchise's failures to fix the offensive line have plagued them.
When you're routinely bad for 7/8 years a lot of things went wrong.
The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.
This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".
FFS, whats up with people named Jim!!!
You're a Browns fans.... so your opinion is literally worthless.
This.
Quote:
Paul Hembekides
Verified account @PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
12:04 PM - 18 Mar 2019
that was all you needed to say from your post.
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
CromartiesKid21 : 9:41 am : link : reply
9 more games this year he will have more losses than any QB in NFL History
Drew Brees needs 12 to have the most losses of all time, and he looks less primed for retirement than Eli. So if Brees ends up with the most losses ever, does he suck too?
It's batshit to me that people would even expect that.
You're surprised that a 2-time Super Bowl MVP, and Giants legend is being handled differently than other guys?
The GM literally told everyone yesterday that he plans on addressing the QB position sooner than later.
The piling on Eli by supposed fans of this team is getting exhausting. And I'm the last guy here who should be considered an "apologist"
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
+1 A lengthy post containing mostly innuendo and supposition about what the OP thinks happened, some people are just obsessed...
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
No thanks. It was garbage the first time.
anyone who works in any competitive field understands that sentiment and its not ideal.
the personal attacks on him are a bit much.
Thanks Hitdog. I respect you as a poster.
The one thing I disagree on is that I do not think I personally attacked him. I have criticized him and his play but not personally attacked him.
I attacked the Giants management for how they have handled Eli and created this environment around him and how it has poisoned the team culture.
I really dont blame Eli for taking advantage of it. Its in his personal self interest.
Mara is dying to stand on that super bowl stage one more time and, ala Pat Bowlen, shout, This ones for Eli!
I'm not sure why you would not want him to stand on that stage, but whatever. You seems to have your own priorities and you are certainly entitled to them.
I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you.
Notice that years into his career they went WCO...a highly unlikely fit for their most important player. If they wanted WCO...they should have drafted his replacement. I am not sure they really wanted WCO...they may have wanted to mask a very bad OL situation
Another problem is that with a good OL two years ago, Eli's limitations could have been starkly judged and the latitude to patiently bring in someone new would have been there.
This part of the problem started when they drafted Flowers and thought he was going to be fine. The problem started when they graded Pugh and Richburg as not executing the play call over 20% of the time. The problem started when they thought Jones was a starting center and Hart a RT.
I and they and you have no idea what Eli is right now.
The real problem is that Eli's replacement should have been on the team two years before this year.
To have a future you have to have options.
They fucked up far before DG
I have no idea if they are still fucking up. I do know that you don't drop your only Qb until you actually have the next one in hand
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
Notice that years into his career they went WCO...a highly unlikely fit for their most important player. If they wanted WCO...they should have drafted his replacement. I am not sure they really wanted WCO...they may have wanted to mask a very bad OL situation
Another problem is that with a good OL two years ago, Eli's limitations could have been starkly judged and the latitude to patiently bring in someone new would have been there.
This part of the problem started when they drafted Flowers and thought he was going to be fine. The problem started when they graded Pugh and Richburg as not executing the play call over 20% of the time. The problem started when they thought Jones was a starting center and Hart a RT.
I and they and you have no idea what Eli is right now.
The real problem is that Eli's replacement should have been on the team two years before this year.
To have a future you have to have options.
They fucked up far before DG
I have no idea if they are still fucking up. I do know that you don't drop your only Qb until you actually have the next one in hand
Excellent post.
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you are confusing being a "villain" with being a moron.
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
If that's what you truly believe, then I think you either need a better dictionary or increase your chlorpromazine dose.
Tom -- I think you are hitting a salient, but potentially unintended nail on the head.
If this is a run-first, conservative offense, that is in the process of upgrades at receivers and needs more work on the offensive line. And the defense needs considerable help.
Might it be worth considering a one-year very expensive game managing type QB isn't the best investment?
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
The one thing I disagree on is that I do not think I personally attacked him. I have criticized him and his play but not personally attacked him.
"He is the rot."
My God you are an idiot.
watch - ( New Window )
Rather be an "Eli apologist" whatever the fuck that means than a shitty fan like yourself.
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Eli needs an OL. Put him with top half OL and he'll be good. Put him with a poor OL and he'll struggle to overcome it. Give him a dire OL and he'll be pretty poor.
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
How much of this do you attribute to his complete lack of mobility
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In comment 14347025 English Alaister said:
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Eli needs an OL. Put him with top half OL and he'll be good. Put him with a poor OL and he'll struggle to overcome it. Give him a dire OL and he'll be pretty poor.
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
How much of this do you attribute to his complete lack of mobility
Has he ever been mobile? No. So no, I don't attribute it to his mobility.
He hasn't had a pocket in nearly a decade and he was never one to take off and run.
I contend if Brady played for the Giants behind this line for the last 8-9 years, many would call him the problem as well and people would think he was done because he wouldn't have Scarnecchia/Belichick/McDaniels giving him a pocket and a scheme at which to excel.
I am not saying this is the case but it is a possible explanation. I hope it isn't the case. We are all about to find out. There can be no offensive line excuses if they stay reasonably healthy this year. We have a great running back and decent but not great receivers. If the offense doesn't perform this year it's going to be pretty clear what has been going on. If Eli performs well it will also say a lot as well. The truth is I don't know what the answer is I have my guesses but I don't have anything definitive. I'm ready to watch this play out and I hope Eli Manning and the New York Giants do very well this year.
Since he cannot run to threaten or avoid (same as Brady) he is a unit QB together with the o-line.
Prior management may have allocated enough draft choices to the o-line, but they did not, for whatever reason, put together even an adequate, let alone strong unit.
And the unit this management trotted out at the beginning of last year was truly pathetic.
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this:
Link - ( New Window )
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this: Link - ( New Window )
Some narratives are etched in stone
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And like last year, Elis apologists will point to his good games and say hes still got it, and point the finger anywhere else but at Eli when he sucks (my guess is this year they blame the loss of OBJ)
Rather be an "Eli apologist" whatever the fuck that means than a shitty fan like yourself.
You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
Like all of your posts, this makes little to no sense. And who the fuck calls themselves "chucky" thats over 5 years old.
Yup. The Giants failed Eli. Eli did not fail the Giants and he's never once bitched about it publicly (to my knowledge). I'll always love him for that.
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You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
Like all of your posts, this makes little to no sense. And who the fuck calls themselves "chucky" thats over 5 years old.
Name calling thats your thing.. real mature..
Name calling thats your thing.. real mature..
Yes, I called you by your name. The literal definition of "name calling."
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as the rest of this thread.
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this: Link - ( New Window )
Some narratives are etched in stone
No, they won't bother.
Because if they did, they'd realize half the sh-t they say is dead wrong.
The guy doesn't need a perfect pocket. And the majority of plays in the clip above the pocket is dirty. He rolls out, he moves around in the pocket, he climbs the ladder, and delivers the ball.
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
I think that you might be yogi berra. I neither hate Eli nor pity him.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
I HATE ELI MANNING.
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
Anyone think this poster should change his name worstgiantfan200?
Eli didnt bench himself. He set up a situation where Geno Smith can fully function and play to the best of his ability for an entire game. Get a clue.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
We are all about to find out. There can be no offensive line excuses if they stay reasonably healthy this year.
No Grateful, the new excuse will be that Eli has no receivers. Watch it evolve. Another really good post from you - thanks.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
I would just add two points to your post.
First, I would add the qualifier that we don't know what either player was like in the locker room. That's relevant in the whole "culture context".
The second point goes to reliability. I don't think that this is trivial. If you tally up games played vs games missed, either in absolute numbers or percentages, how do these tow players compare?
ELI IS THE ROT!!
The whole problem is from poor team building. Getts is taking a lot of heat but he knows he had a major rebuild on his hands.
You cant build a solid structure on a weak foundation. Im not saying Reese didnt try but his picks on O line were failures.
This is why Im convinced he wont be taking a QB high. The defense in general and offensive line quality and depth of that quality is at least two rounds deep this year. Getts will take his lumps but this draft will go a long way in fixing the foundation imo
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McAdoo DID NOT BENCH Eli !! Eli BENCHED HIMSELF..
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
Anyone think this poster should change his name worstgiantfan200?
Eli didnt bench himself. He set up a situation where Geno Smith can fully function and play to the best of his ability for an entire game. Get a clue.
Also, and this is the essential element of the controversy, McAdoo had no intention of waiting for Eli to perform "listlessly" before lifting him. And that is regardless of whether he told him of the plan beforehand or not. Missing that, is completely misunderstanding or, more likely, misconstruing, the situation.
Considering that all of the Rosenaphilic Eli-haters cite Rosen's poor OL for his sucky performance this past season, they stand on jello of irony.
You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
^^This^^
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You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
The QB position is more complex than DE/OLB and I agree that on the margins continuity at QB is more important for that reason. But this doesn't explain the stark difference in how Vernon and Eli were managed this offseason. The fact that you consider this "poorly thought out", because the QB exists on some sort of different island than the other athletes on the team, I think reflects the thinking around Giants central. I think it's gone way beyond the range of reasonable objectivity.
It's just the facts. QB is exponentially more difficult to replace than Vernon. They are entirely different entities. You can either acknowledge that and understand that it's why they don't have equal value in either the trade market or the contract market - or you can disingenuously pretend otherwise and continue the crusade against Eli Manning out of frustration and just continue to take a piss on all logic and rationality.
The idea that the only objective people here are the ones mercilessly trashing Eli is funny.
That has value.
So let's talk the physical aspect. Simply, can he make the throws or can he not? It's pretty clear to me that he can still make them.
He is not an immobile statue as some insinuate. In fact, he's run more called rollouts than in his entire career. He's also converted QB sneaks. He moves around in the pocket to buy time.
Do we need to plan for his replacement, yes. But he can still play.
If you are open to listening to reason, watch that 30 minute clip of 2018 Manning plays and tell me what exactly he's incapable of doing, because everything I described is right there in living color in it.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
And why do you think that is?
Anyway, we will be arguing about this for a long time. Cheers.
The week before Eli was benched we played the Redskins and offense was terrible -- we punted every possession except 1 field goal and 1 INT at end of game -- The offense had only made one first down in the second half of the game
Since then, literally everyone responsible has suffered some sort of consequence except for Eli.
That was an addendum to my post above yours. It was in general, not to you.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
Right, and where does it get them?
We can cycle through 5 QB's and not find the right one. Or we can be more deliberate and try to not have another Simms -> Eli gap like we did in the mid/late 90's before things settled with Collins for a few years.
People are so desperate to just get rid of Eli, but all of you guys are going to change your tune the second the next guy sucks and we realize that it's not so easy to just throw someone else out there and have it work out better for us.
I want the next guy to be on the team sooner than later. But I want to make sure it's the guy they believe in. Not a guy they are forcing into the fold because all of the fans and talking heads are screaming like lunatics about the QB position.
But it rarely is because you literally have some posters saying there are "Eli apologists" that assign no blame to him. It is a false statement.
Meanwhile, one of the guys that calls people "Eli apologists" just penned a manifesto with the title "Eli Manning IS the Problem".
Every person in the Giants organization bears some responsibility for the down years. Every person.
If there are posters who say Eli bears no responsibility, they are as fucking moronic as twostepgiants is. I haven't seen those posters and before somebody screams that Britt and dep are, ask yourselves if any BBI'er has started a thread with a title:
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
Eli is being kept because of things that happened in 2011 and prior - and that is the opposite of logic and rationality.
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Dep and Britt usually include a perfunctory sentence along those lines, and then proceed to make an argument that indicates that they don't actually believe the pro forma admission that Eli is at least partly responsible for the team's struggles.
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What kind of person wakes up day after day, thinking gee how can I bash Eli on BBI today?
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
If the thread didn't exist in the first place, would there be a need?
Chicken or the egg?
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
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Also, and this is the essential element of the controversy, McAdoo had no intention of waiting for Eli to perform "listlessly" before lifting him.
The week before Eli was benched we played the Redskins and offense was terrible -- we punted every possession except 1 field goal and 1 INT at end of game -- The offense had only made one first down in the second half of the game
It's a nice observation but it has no relevance to either my post or the "Plan" as you presented it, albeit in a distorted fashion.
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I haven't seen those posters and before somebody screams that Britt and dep are, ask yourselves if any BBI'er has started a thread with a title:
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Dep and Britt usually include a perfunctory sentence along those lines, and then proceed to make an argument that indicates that they don't actually believe the pro forma admission that Eli is at least partly responsible for the team's struggles.
Sometimes its hard to think outside the box. Maybe one day you will. But if you do/dont - you will still be one miserable person and thats what is most important.
You have very selective reading. Its probably why you dont understand a lot of things to well.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
+1.
I also think that at some point, Eli's salary and contributions undermine the team concept as well. You're shipping off, cutting, and not extending younger players but have no problem paying an underperforming Manning $23M a year. That has a negative impact on morale, and probably a bigger one than any of us can imagine.
Everyone wants a meritocracy, until it's time to cut ties with someone that has an emotional attachment.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
Other than Reese, or more appropriately, the products/consequences of Reese's decisions.
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If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
And again..... what have been the Giants strengths in the last 7 years that Eli has been holding us back?
Our run game has averaged 24th in the NFL since 2012, and 20th in defense (with 2016 the only year being in top 15).
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What kind of person wakes up day after day, thinking gee how can I bash Eli on BBI today?
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
By definition, they are responders.
Disclaimer (Please pay attention): If he no longer could lead a team (even with protection), then I AS THE OWNER, would have at least given him his 5 million bonus he received the other day as a heartfrlt and uber appreciative gesture.
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If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
Eli hasn't been a shitty QB for a decade - he didn't just lose the ability to win games starting in 2012.
The Giants failed him miserably by letting the line deteriorate around him to an embarrassing degree, by bringing in a guy who was forcing an offense that didn't fit the QB's strengths - tried to start changing his footwork and mechanics after he had already been in the league for over a decade, and have saddled him with more terrible defenses than I can even count at this point.
It's just a lazy, shitty argument to make this all Eli's fault. I'm tired of reading this nonsense from people who can't see any grey area.
It's always got to be ALL Eli or ALL one person/thing around here.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
Says a Phil Simms big time supporter
These arent excuses. Its actual facts. Listen we all know he is near the end. But lets not pretend that he was surrounded by all world talent and he was holding the team back. In fact, the only player who probably was worth a damn is the same guy you wanted gone for 4 years.
Eli Manning was NOT the problem of the teams failures. He was a part of it. The main problem for this team suckitude is simple.... Jerry Reese and Marc Ross. Its still gonna take years for whtaver GM to clean up their shittiness.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
Ha ha, this one made me laugh out loud. You are spot on, Eli is not Dalton. He is a two time super bowl MVP that has proven time and time again he can win you games of provide with 1.) Protection as he is a pocket passer and 2.) A running game. We solved #2 last year, now lets finish resolving issue #1.
The utter bullshit spewed about Eli on here is frustrating. Do you really think Gettleman would keep Eli if he wasnt productive? He is a take no prisoners type of guy, hes not afraid to trade or cut any player.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
Regardless of comparing the GM's ability to evaluate a QB vs a fan's, I would be curious about the 2-class system in the clubhouse (as well as the morale problems mentioned by other posters). If this were the case, I would think that we would all hear about this constantly from Ginats players, especially the plethora of those no longer with the team since DG took over.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
We HAVE TO SAY IF, because the Giants have failed him miserably with the OL..If he had a good OL, wed all KNOW by now whether hes lost it or not. So far, were waiting, as he goes off into the sunset, to see, if finally, it was diminished skills or mostly the OL. I hope we can finally find out which, before a new QB takes over possibly next season
In January/February of 2012, Eli Manning was in the midst of capping another 4-0 playoff run and topping it off with the SB MVP cherry against NE for a second time. He told people he thought he was an elite QB, and it was hard for anyone to tell him he was wrong after that performance.
By the end of the very next year (2013), Eli had thrown 27 picks, led the entire NFL in turnovers, and was on one of the worst teams in the league.
Did he forget how to play his position in under 2 calendar years, or did the team around him deteriorate around the same time that we were having what were essentially 0-yield drafts with no young guys taking the older players jobs?
I'm under no delusions regarding what Eli is right now, in 2019.
But anyone who says he "IS" the problem, and is unwilling to acknowledge any of the other components here is being willfully obtuse and are fueling their own garbage agenda.
Look at the thread title!
Coughlin wasn't hired for Eli. McAdoo wasn't hired for eli and neither was shurmur. Two of those guys run WCO blends.
McAdoo was likely fired a couple weeks sooner because of how he handled the Eli benching situation, but what are the excuses and coaching moves made to appease Eli??
More made-up nonsense.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
I don't think that there is a single post you've made or argument that you've made that doesn't mention "at his salary". I still don't think that there's been any indication that his salary has held them back from any specific moves. And, if it hasn't, then it's irrelevant. What should be more relevant is can they get better performance by anyone currently available. I honestly don't think so. And not because of any particular affinity for Eli because, frankly, I could just as soon see Lauletta in his place if they wanted to make the strategic move for better position for a better QB. But, since they want to also win as much as they can while still trying to build for the future, Eli seems the best choice to me.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
This X100
Now, imagine if they gave that defense to HC Coughlin, instead of HC Baggy suit guy.
He truly believes that kind of utter shit.
It is also why he thinks having multiple mobile QB's on rookie contracts that can be used interchangably would be successful too.
There's a certain level of delusion there that is borderline insanity.
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You're making excuses for a player that is being paid like he can carry the offense.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
I don't think that there is a single post you've made or argument that you've made that doesn't mention "at his salary". I still don't think that there's been any indication that his salary has held them back from any specific moves. And, if it hasn't, then it's irrelevant. What should be more relevant is can they get better performance by anyone currently available. I honestly don't think so. And not because of any particular affinity for Eli because, frankly, I could just as soon see Lauletta in his place if they wanted to make the strategic move for better position for a better QB. But, since they want to also win as much as they can while still trying to build for the future, Eli seems the best choice to me.
I still don't think that there's been any indication that his salary has held them back from any specific moves.
I havent seen that either. Who have we missed out on that wasnt damaged goods (or close to it) or simply opted to play elsewhere?
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In comment 14347085 Britt in VA said:
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as the rest of this thread.
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this: Link - ( New Window )
Some narratives are etched in stone
No, they won't bother.
Because if they did, they'd realize half the sh-t they say is dead wrong.
The guy doesn't need a perfect pocket. And the majority of plays in the clip above the pocket is dirty. He rolls out, he moves around in the pocket, he climbs the ladder, and delivers the ball.
If he's not THE problem then the Giants should be competitive.
Sounds like a win-win.
My only comment on this will be it sounds like from a lot of the supportive posts that Eli needs things to be perfect to succeed. He needs a good OL, he needs Barkley (or a good running game), he needs quality receivers etc.
Maybe that's true of all QB's but I think this should be the goal, to get a QB who doesn't need EVERYTHING to be perfect for them to succeed.
Let's face it, he's old, so he'll need more to succeed now than he did in his prime, so whether he still has gas in the tank or not, he could be upgraded and that succession plan should be in motion.
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"have saddled him with more terrible defenses than I can even count at this point." Totally agreed with the exception of 2016. That team made the playoffs b/c that defense was legit. They didn't make it b/c Eli and the offense carried them.
Now, imagine if they gave that defense to HC Coughlin, instead of HC Baggy suit guy.
I took a bath that year - I thought for sure the Giants were going to make a monster run.
I still think they would have had DRC not got hurt right before half time.
The team can concurrently rebuild while trying to field a roster that can compete next season.
The team can concurrently hang on to Eli while they search for his successor.
Instead, they only view it as mutually exclusive.
He truly believes that kind of utter shit.
It is also why he thinks having multiple mobile QB's on rookie contracts that can be used interchangably would be successful too.
There's a certain level of delusion there that is borderline insanity.
You of all people are going to call me delusional? That's funny.
So, then we will all know for sure.
What ever will we bitch and argue about then?
This is Manning's mission. He's the perfect guy for this moment. Eli's got this.
So relax, have a cream soda. Say one more word and I swear I'll stab you in the neck with a pencil.
If he's not THE problem then the Giants should be competitive.
Sounds like a win-win.
My only comment on this will be it sounds like from a lot of the supportive posts that Eli needs things to be perfect to succeed. He needs a good OL, he needs Barkley (or a good running game), he needs quality receivers etc.
Maybe that's true of all QB's but I think this should be the goal, to get a QB who doesn't need EVERYTHING to be perfect for them to succeed.
Let's face it, he's old, so he'll need more to succeed now than he did in his prime, so whether he still has gas in the tank or not, he could be upgraded and that succession plan should be in motion.
Not perfect, just a reasonably good OL, especially up the middle where hes been getting killed. That was always his strength; the ability to step up into the pocket. That opportunity has been lost for at least a half a decade, for the most part.
The team can concurrently rebuild while trying to field a roster that can compete next season.
The team can concurrently hang on to Eli while they search for his successor.
Instead, they only view it as mutually exclusive.
I don't think this is accurate. I think a fairer way to put it is that hanging on to Eli (and that's what it is now - hanging on) is not the best way for the team to compete.
So you didn't post that 53 players all taking up the same cap space is a viable model to win with good coaching??
No, but you're also not addressing the fact that there has always been a high level of variance in Eli's performances throughout his career, probably more so than any other high level QB I can think of. He had two playoff runs for the ages, but he's also been awful at times even with good supporting casts.
Anyway, we will be arguing about this for a long time. Cheers.
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You of all people are going to call me delusional? That's funny.
So you didn't post that 53 players all taking up the same cap space is a viable model to win with good coaching??
I did. It's an academic exercise to illustrate a point...rosters around the NFL are too top heavy when it comes to the salary cap, and that comes at the cost of quality depth and roster flexibility year to year. In a league where injuries are such a major determinant of wins and losses, it seems inefficient. It probably shouldn't come as a surprise that New England tends to have a more even cap disbursement across the roster than most or all other teams. They get this concept.
That has nothing to do with it being funny for you to call me delusional. I can't remember the last thing related to this team that you've been right on.
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has the overarching theme correct - the Giants, specifically Mara, want a fairytale ending for Eli. And come hell or high water, they are determined to give Eli every chance to get there.
Mara is dying to stand on that super bowl stage one more time and, ala Pat Bowlen, shout, This ones for Eli!
I'm not sure why you would not want him to stand on that stage, but whatever. You seems to have your own priorities and you are certainly entitled to them.
It's a probability call. Sure, that would be great to hoist another trophy. But at 38, and with the rest of the holes the team has, that is highly unlikely. And a waste of cap dollars - in my view...
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
I will always respect you as a football poster Terps, and I totally get the salary thing, however some of us rate his capability at this point higher than you do (and some others).
We can argue that point all day subjectively, however one thing posters that take your position seem to not be able to admit is the fact that it is impossible to fully and objectively rate what his actual rate of deterioration is based on how bad the OL is, and the fact that he has now changed offensive system 2x in the last 2 years. That stuff matters. And we have seen improved QB play behind improved blocking and 8+ games into the new system.
The fact is that you have his contemporaries at the same age and older playing at high levels. So what's the difference? Did Eli completely fall off of a cliff? Or do the things I mentioned above actually have a tangible (and negative) effect on his play and his offense.
Does anyone REALLY want Bridgewater/Foles/Tannehill/Fitzpatrick here as some stop gap QB? Especially if we have improved the OL even more, the system is taking hold and we actually start showing a good offense again with our possible HOF QB (even though he is close to the end of his career)? I certainly DO NOT. And those of us that bring up these points are all on the same page that we need to bring another QB into the fold for when he is gone.
Everyone acts like there is some easy formula to replacing your franchise QB. Well, there ain't.
I don't think that portion - like me - hate Eli. I've never been an Eli fan - for a variety of reasons - but I hold Mara et al COMPLETELY responsible for this situation.
Eli just wants to continue to play football, and get paid.
I don't know if this is something that will magically come back with a revived OL, or if this is something that is actually mental with him. He's been accustomed to needing to get the ball out so quick in the last few years, that I'm curious as to his internal clock now, with a pocket that should hold up better.
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You're making excuses for a player that is being paid like he can carry the offense.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
I will always respect you as a football poster Terps, and I totally get the salary thing, however some of us rate his capability at this point higher than you do (and some others).
We can argue that point all day subjectively, however one thing posters that take your position seem to not be able to admit is the fact that it is impossible to fully and objectively rate what his actual rate of deterioration is based on how bad the OL is, and the fact that he has now changed offensive system 2x in the last 2 years. That stuff matters. And we have seen improved QB play behind improved blocking and 8+ games into the new system.
The fact is that you have his contemporaries at the same age and older playing at high levels. So what's the difference? Did Eli completely fall off of a cliff? Or do the things I mentioned above actually have a tangible (and negative) effect on his play and his offense.
Does anyone REALLY want Bridgewater/Foles/Tannehill/Fitzpatrick here as some stop gap QB? Especially if we have improved the OL even more, the system is taking hold and we actually start showing a good offense again with our possible HOF QB (even though he is close to the end of his career)? I certainly DO NOT. And those of us that bring up these points are all on the same page that we need to bring another QB into the fold for when he is gone.
Everyone acts like there is some easy formula to replacing your franchise QB. Well, there ain't.
Good post Johnny, well said.
You have to want to replace him first. I don't think the Giants are at all interested in that.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
However, Rodgers is getting $30m, Wilson is going to get that and more. There's a lot worse things than paying Eli $23m in 2019, especially when you think that $6m of that is a sunk cost anyway.
What I do think and hope Eli can do is play very effectively behind a quality OL. I think he can step up and post a 100+ QBR season based on last year.
To be clear, I'd take the opportunity to draft a successor if it presented itself (and I think DG has been clear on that too) but for now I don't feel we're evaluating Eli on something that happened 7 years ago. We're evaluating him on a second half of the season where he looked like a 100 rated QB.
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Did he forget how to play his position in under 2 calendar years
No, but you're also not addressing the fact that there has always been a high level of variance in Eli's performances throughout his career, probably more so than any other high level QB I can think of. He had two playoff runs for the ages, but he's also been awful at times even with good supporting casts.
Of course, Eli has always been enigmatic - I think that goes without saying.
But he was really good in 2015 - two years after he led the NFL in turnovers and looked terrible in the process. The 2013 team was an utter disaster and although 32 year old Eli Manning played his part - the state of the OL at that point was becoming truly pathetic.
We had Brandon Jacobs out of retirement not even wearing his #27 on that team... we had Peyton Hillis and Michael Cox getting meaningful carries. Brandon Myers was our TE and Louis Murphy was a starting WR.
It was a truly terrible offense. The talent around Eli was pitiful.
The Giants org failed Eli in a lot of ways and did a really poor job of sustaining his career/maximizing it.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
Eric our GM is one of these 2 categories.
I've been saying this for years. It really sucks. But the sad truth is there's no undoing it now, and Eli is a 38 year old QB at the end of several years of beatings. He isn't the same QB.
However, Rodgers is getting $30m, Wilson is going to get that and more. There's a lot worse things than paying Eli $23m in 2019, especially when you think that $6m of that is a sunk cost anyway.
What I do think and hope Eli can do is play very effectively behind a quality OL. I think he can step up and post a 100+ QBR season based on last year.
To be clear, I'd take the opportunity to draft a successor if it presented itself (and I think DG has been clear on that too) but for now I don't feel we're evaluating Eli on something that happened 7 years ago. We're evaluating him on a second half of the season where he looked like a 100 rated QB.
I think that in part his immobility is overstated. Much of it is exacerbated by having a porous line. He already has one of the fastest if not the fastest get off times in the league purely because he has to. With a better line, he wold have less need to be mobile and therefore we would not notice it as much.
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Everyone acts like there is some easy formula to replacing your franchise QB. Well, there ain't.
You have to want to replace him first. I don't think the Giants are at all interested in that.
That may be true to some degree with ownership, but we can only speculate. I'm pretty sure Gettleman knows he needs to have have a plan (or multiple plans) to replace him, and sooner rather than later. I mean you may or may not like him as a GM but he would not be where he is if he didn't. And I'm sure he doesn't want to get it wrong. We are in a precarious spot here. I totally get trying to win with your current franchise QB while rebuilding the team and also working diligently on finding his (valid) replacement. But it's a huge decision that we don't want to force.
That is horse shit. No one is saying that Eli needs everything to be perfect.
All most Eli supporters have stated is that he could still perform at a productive level if the offensive wasn't complete dog shit for nearly a decade.
There is an enormous difference between not having an impossibly bad offensive line for nearly a decade and needing everything to be perfect.
And that says nothing of how bad the defense has been for the better part of the last decade as well.
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The Giants org failed Eli in a lot of ways and did a really poor job of sustaining his career/maximizing it.
I've been saying this for years. It really sucks. But the sad truth is there's no undoing it now, and Eli is a 38 year old QB at the end of several years of beatings. He isn't the same QB.
I don't think many would disagree with you. My perspective is still that for this one year (and I would include for last year as well considering the quality of player we picked versus all others) he is the best available option. I want my newly drafted rookie starting from day 1 next year with Eli off the books. (The last part was to sate your salary obsession.)
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The Giants org failed Eli in a lot of ways and did a really poor job of sustaining his career/maximizing it.
I've been saying this for years. It really sucks. But the sad truth is there's no undoing it now, and Eli is a 38 year old QB at the end of several years of beatings. He isn't the same QB.
He's not - and my preferred route is to move on now. I don't want to see an extension or see this thing continue to be prolonged longer than it needs to.
I'm just tired of seeing him take all the heat for mistakes the organization made or get kicked out the door like some run of the mill JAG when it's not all his fault.
Hopefully the next guy is in the fold by the time we hit camp and we can move forward sooner than later.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
I wouldn't characterize it that way. Stripped down, this is really a very good debate about reason vs emotion.
And for the last 3-4 years, I this emotion has dominated decision making at Jints Central. And likely at the expense of getting better for the long term...
Now we are plunged into quite a bit of uncertainty at QB this year and going forward.
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most annoying thing about the endless debates on Eli Manning are the extremists who either insist (1) Eli shares no/very little of the responsibility for the team's poor play, or (2) all of the other issues are mostly moot because Eli is largely to blame.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
I wouldn't characterize it that way. Stripped down, this is really a very good debate about reason vs emotion.
And for the last 3-4 years, I this emotion has dominated decision making at Jints Central. And likely at the expense of getting better for the long term...
With respect, I think that's a load of condescending bullshit. You might disagree with their reasoning but people have provided cogent arguments in support of retention. Likewise, there's a ton of arguments by some, including you I would surmise, that are largely fueled by reflexive and visceral despite.
Oh really? And what's the excuse of the running game sucking since SB46? What's the excuse of watching the #2 pick in the draft RB getting hit with 1st contact from the defense an average of literally 6 inches after receiving the handoff? That's not even a HALF of a step before contact. Do you have eyes? Are you going to argue that we actually had a solid OL? Really?
Now we are plunged into quite a bit of uncertainty at QB this year and going forward.
See...so it really did work out for the best. We got the best player and made the best choice, apparently all because of unfounded attachment to Eli. Maybe the attachment is bad but, omg we were so freaking lucky to have it.
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This refrain is repeated year after year. But the offensive line is a great excuse, and has been since SB46. It's been truly abysmal.
Oh really? And what's the excuse of the running game sucking since SB46? What's the excuse of watching the #2 pick in the draft RB getting hit with 1st contact from the defense an average of literally 6 inches after receiving the handoff? That's not even a HALF of a step before contact. Do you have eyes? Are you going to argue that we actually had a solid OL? Really?
If I wasn't clear, I'm saying it IS a legitimate excuse. We're in agreement.
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The Giants org failed Eli in a lot of ways and did a really poor job of sustaining his career/maximizing it.
I've been saying this for years. It really sucks. But the sad truth is there's no undoing it now, and Eli is a 38 year old QB at the end of several years of beatings. He isn't the same QB.
I don't think many would disagree with you. My perspective is still that for this one year (and I would include for last year as well considering the quality of player we picked versus all others) he is the best available option. I want my newly drafted rookie starting from day 1 next year with Eli off the books. (The last part was to sate your salary obsession.)
No rookie starts from "day one". They will at least have a veteran QB presence on the roster.
As recent examples, the Jets signed both Bridewater (15 mil) and McCown (10 mil), the Bills signed McCarron (10 mil), the Cards signed Bradford (15 mil) and the Browns traded a 3rd for Tyrod Taylor. The Bears signed Glennon for 3 yrs 45 mil, the Chiefs kept Alex Smith, the Eagles had kept Bradford and only traded him a week before season when they knew what they had in Wentz, the Rams resigned Keenum on a 1 year tender.
Which means the Giants will either waste valuable time & dollars pursuing a vet QB next offseason or use this once again as a reason to bring back Eli to "mentor".
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This refrain is repeated year after year. But the offensive line is a great excuse, and has been since SB46. It's been truly abysmal.
Oh really? And what's the excuse of the running game sucking since SB46? What's the excuse of watching the #2 pick in the draft RB getting hit with 1st contact from the defense an average of literally 6 inches after receiving the handoff? That's not even a HALF of a step before contact. Do you have eyes? Are you going to argue that we actually had a solid OL? Really?
I think he is agreeing with you...lol
Just think of the opportunities to win we would have had we gotten a running QB. Think of all the incredibility great OL men unfairly accused of sucking like a turnstile in a vacuum and run out of town because Eli couldn't take off and go break his leg or blow out his knee like the running QBs over the last 10 years have.
Lets trade our entire draft to get a 5'10 QB who's strongest feature is his ability to take off and run for 65 yards. At least he will provide excitement while the defense gives up 35 points per game because we have zero pass rush.
Honestly I am more frustrated by the haters than by Eli's bad performances behind horrible OLs with some of the leading PASS DROPPERS, Route Blowers and Tipped Ballers in the NFL.
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Mara probably should have been the adult in the room and ended it after 2017. Had that happened we'd be talking about Darnold at QB (no way we take Barkley if Eli was off the roster) and loading up the roster around him this year and next. The planets aligned - 2nd overall pick in a great QB draft, new GM, new coach, new OC...that was the time to make the change. The only confounder was Eli - Mara should have known better.
Now we are plunged into quite a bit of uncertainty at QB this year and going forward.
See...so it really did work out for the best. We got the best player and made the best choice, apparently all because of unfounded attachment to Eli. Maybe the attachment is bad but, omg we were so freaking lucky to have it.
I don't agree.
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In comment 14347356 Go Terps said:
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The Giants org failed Eli in a lot of ways and did a really poor job of sustaining his career/maximizing it.
I've been saying this for years. It really sucks. But the sad truth is there's no undoing it now, and Eli is a 38 year old QB at the end of several years of beatings. He isn't the same QB.
I don't think many would disagree with you. My perspective is still that for this one year (and I would include for last year as well considering the quality of player we picked versus all others) he is the best available option. I want my newly drafted rookie starting from day 1 next year with Eli off the books. (The last part was to sate your salary obsession.)
No rookie starts from "day one". They will at least have a veteran QB presence on the roster.
As recent examples, the Jets signed both Bridewater (15 mil) and McCown (10 mil), the Bills signed McCarron (10 mil), the Cards signed Bradford (15 mil) and the Browns traded a 3rd for Tyrod Taylor. The Bears signed Glennon for 3 yrs 45 mil, the Chiefs kept Alex Smith, the Eagles had kept Bradford and only traded him a week before season when they knew what they had in Wentz, the Rams resigned Keenum on a 1 year tender.
Which means the Giants will either waste valuable time & dollars pursuing a vet QB next offseason or use this once again as a reason to bring back Eli to "mentor".
okay, let's say day 2. We had 4 rookie QB's this year who didn't really get mentored and got tons of game experience. I'm sure if you go back through time you can find others. Plus we have Tanney. We dpon't need Eli next year andgiven the state of the contract, it would be foolish to have him.
All his "gunslinger" mistakes historically were when he had one of forced / rushed / lazy footwork. He was never mobile but he had light feet and AWESOME pocket fluidity.
HE HAS LOST HIS FEET - he has lost that pocket fluidity.
Look back at one of my favorite Eli games. He was so eff-ing tough. His protection was breaking down ALL game against a great D. But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
No one can honestly say that those are the feet you've seen the last two years. So yes the line was bad, but he needs an all pro line at this stage for his heavy feet.
This was jerry's biggest failing. Poor scouting on the lineman he did draft, ignoring it in FA, not being honest about his picks, and instead giving him all these skill position toys.
So one thing that Gettlemen said, I agree with. All of these moves aren't in a vacuum. I just disagree with his conclusion. This line will never be at the level in the short term where we can be truly competitive with 2019 Eli.
SF NFC title game - 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58... - ( New Window )
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In comment 14347393 Go Terps said:
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Mara probably should have been the adult in the room and ended it after 2017. Had that happened we'd be talking about Darnold at QB (no way we take Barkley if Eli was off the roster) and loading up the roster around him this year and next. The planets aligned - 2nd overall pick in a great QB draft, new GM, new coach, new OC...that was the time to make the change. The only confounder was Eli - Mara should have known better.
Now we are plunged into quite a bit of uncertainty at QB this year and going forward.
See...so it really did work out for the best. We got the best player and made the best choice, apparently all because of unfounded attachment to Eli. Maybe the attachment is bad but, omg we were so freaking lucky to have it.
I don't agree.
Well, color me shocked.
All his "gunslinger" mistakes historically were when he had one of forced / rushed / lazy footwork. He was never mobile but he had light feet and AWESOME pocket fluidity.
HE HAS LOST HIS FEET - he has lost that pocket fluidity.
Look back at one of my favorite Eli games. He was so eff-ing tough. His protection was breaking down ALL game against a great D. But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
No one can honestly say that those are the feet you've seen the last two years. So yes the line was bad, but he needs an all pro line at this stage for his heavy feet.
This was jerry's biggest failing. Poor scouting on the lineman he did draft, ignoring it in FA, not being honest about his picks, and instead giving him all these skill position toys.
So one thing that Gettlemen said, I agree with. All of these moves aren't in a vacuum. I just disagree with his conclusion. This line will never be at the level in the short term where we can be truly competitive with 2019 Eli. SF NFC title game - 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58... - ( New Window )
You can thank McAdoo for that. He changed his footwork.
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
The rot is not Eli his teammates actually speak highly of him. Just as they have about Odell. The problem on this team was evaluating talent. Drafting players that were not deserving of their draft position. Trying to fix an OL where your RG, C and LT were basically useless, injured or both. The rot that occurred started on the OL and DL's. Go back a watch Tom Coughlin's 1st press conference, I could not wait for pre-season that year. You knew we were going to get it right. You build the OL and DL then you get your QB. Right now we are close to doing that. the OL is almost done now we focus on the DL then the QB of the future. The game is won in the trenches. The QB gets paid gets the glory but the trenches win championships.
With respect, I think that's a load of condescending bullshit. You might disagree with their reasoning but people have provided cogent arguments in support of retention. Likewise, there's a ton of arguments by some, including you I would surmise, that are largely fueled by reflexive and visceral despite.
This is where I think twosteps nailed it in his post. If you take Eli's name out of the mix, and replace it with Player X, and describe Eli's circumstances, I think it's very hard to say it's worth the stretch to keep Player X.
On the other hand, if Player X is Brady, and his situation is described in great detail, it's a reasonable position to conclude that he's worth keeping. To a lesser degree, Brees, too.
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In comment 14347383 jogo1 said:
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This refrain is repeated year after year. But the offensive line is a great excuse, and has been since SB46. It's been truly abysmal.
Oh really? And what's the excuse of the running game sucking since SB46? What's the excuse of watching the #2 pick in the draft RB getting hit with 1st contact from the defense an average of literally 6 inches after receiving the handoff? That's not even a HALF of a step before contact. Do you have eyes? Are you going to argue that we actually had a solid OL? Really?
If I wasn't clear, I'm saying it IS a legitimate excuse. We're in agreement.
Ah... yes, I see that now. So Sorry! Carry on then... lol
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Not to this level of detail, but this is a question I always ask in these debates to the Eli Army.
And I'm fairly certain the most common answer is crickets.
And that makes sense because a legitimate case for Eli to lead a team in the SB is almost impossible to make.
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
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But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
- ( New Window )
You can thank McAdoo for that. He changed his footwork.
STAHHHHP. McAdoo didn't tell him that once he takes his dropback to not evade the rush. C'mon dude.
That is horse shit. No one is saying that Eli needs everything to be perfect.
All most Eli supporters have stated is that he could still perform at a productive level if the offensive wasn't complete dog shit for nearly a decade.
There is an enormous difference between not having an impossibly bad offensive line for nearly a decade and needing everything to be perfect.
And that says nothing of how bad the defense has been for the better part of the last decade as well.
It's not really a strawman if you read this site and have heard fan comments over the years.
And again, I'm not saying this myself, I do think the Giants can probably win some games with Eli, I also think they can probably win games though with a lot of QB's though.
Anyway, I have read fans and talking heads say the OL stinks, Eli has no time. So I think we all agree Eli needs a better OL.
Then what can he live without? what doesn't need to be perfect? running game? WR's? coaching?
Giants leading rushers before Barkley since the last SB (in order)
Bradshaw (1015)
Andre Brown (492)
Andre Williams (721)
Rashad Jennings (863)
Rashad Jennings (593)
Orleans Darkwa (751)
I've read multiple fans complaints about that group (and rightly so) as Eli struggled over the years.
receivers? After Beckham, and to a lesser extent Shepard no wide receiver on the Giants did anything acceptable, even Ruben Randle or especially Ruben Randle.
So now in 2018 running game solved, Barkley is the real deal.
quality receivers should not have been an issue with Beckham, Shepard, Engram.
You have a running game, wide receivers, but your OL stinks and now that's the reason for the offensive struggles.
It's the OL or coaching. until Beckham was injured.
I have read all of that on here, no one is creating a straw man. read the threads it's all there.
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
So what can Eli thrive without? Because all those variables are not going to be fixed in one off-season.
The line needed to be fixed regardless. The defense needs a lot of work regardless. We need an edge rusher regardless.
Obviously if Eli gets a 2 year extension, I'll look at it differently.
But I think they really want to have someone else in here this year and get that guy into games as soon as it looks like the season is taking a downturn. That's what I got from Gettleman yesterday - I don't think he was FOS on that part. They know they need a QB. They aren't trying to make this a long-term plan with Eli - or at least that's not my perception.
All his "gunslinger" mistakes historically were when he had one of forced / rushed / lazy footwork. He was never mobile but he had light feet and AWESOME pocket fluidity.
HE HAS LOST HIS FEET - he has lost that pocket fluidity.
Look back at one of my favorite Eli games. He was so eff-ing tough. His protection was breaking down ALL game against a great D. But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
No one can honestly say that those are the feet you've seen the last two years. So yes the line was bad, but he needs an all pro line at this stage for his heavy feet.
This was jerry's biggest failing. Poor scouting on the lineman he did draft, ignoring it in FA, not being honest about his picks, and instead giving him all these skill position toys.
So one thing that Gettlemen said, I agree with. All of these moves aren't in a vacuum. I just disagree with his conclusion. This line will never be at the level in the short term where we can be truly competitive with 2019 Eli. SF NFC title game - 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58... - ( New Window )
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
.
I would argue that the Steelers had all that except maybe coaching.
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
The resources being used to keep him as a placeholder can be much better allocated to improving the team so that it can be better for the future QB.. Either he could've taken a pay cut to be in line with his performance or we could've had another player take his place and pay them placeholder salary..
The line needed to be fixed regardless. The defense needs a lot of work regardless. We need an edge rusher regardless.
Obviously if Eli gets a 2 year extension, I'll look at it differently.
But I think they really want to have someone else in here this year and get that guy into games as soon as it looks like the season is taking a downturn. That's what I got from Gettleman yesterday - I don't think he was FOS on that part. They know they need a QB. They aren't trying to make this a long-term plan with Eli - or at least that's not my perception.
and that's the part that pissed me off. in 2019 he says would be a clown not to address QB. but in 2018 after all his film review, Eli is his guy. Analytics be damned.
The team may be decent and the product will still look like an NFL team with Eli.
However, going with a rookie or Rosen/Lauletta or another acquisition for trade (Driskel-type) will likely lead to a product less appealing on the field.
And I don't think they want to offer their customer a product like that. So they are hedging with Eli.
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Eli is neither "The" problem or "The" solution moving forward. If you think Eli can carry this team to the playoffs like he did in 2011 (yes he did do that), you are wrong. He's not that guy anymore. He could be the guy that's good enough to win it with a good team around like big brother did for the Broncos but .... this team is no where near good enough to do that. Alternatively, none of the rookie QBs last year, this year, or next year can carry this team into the playoffs. Tom Brady, Drew Bress, Russell Wilson, etc couldn't carry this team to the playoffs either.
Bottom line, no player could get this team to the Super Bowl. We can re-evaluate again before the season starts (after the draft, FA, trades, etc). Let the Giants build around the QB REGARDLESS of who is at the position until they get the QB of the future. Don't waste precious picks (high picks) on a damn maybe. Want to give a QB the best possible situation to grow, learn, and succeed? Give him an OL that can protect him. Give him a running game. Give him a defense that can hold a damn lead at the end of a game. A defense that can get the ball back in his hands as quick as possible. Hell, just give the man a fighting chance because the current team can't do that. Throwing a rookie back there now is like tying one of his hands behind his back!
The team may be decent and the product will still look like an NFL team with Eli.
However, going with a rookie or Rosen/Lauletta or another acquisition for trade (Driskel-type) will likely lead to a product less appealing on the field.
And I don't think they want to offer their customer a product like that. So they are hedging with Eli.
No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
What has Kyle Lauletta done to deserve this job? Everyone is all bent out of shape over Eli getting his job "handed to him" based on his namesake, and then in the next breath,, they suggest Lauletta being given the job on zero merit.
Lauletta's claim to fame so far is a run in with the cops.
Driskel is a waste of assets. I don't know why you're so hung up on this guy. No reason to make a trade for him.
We have no idea if Rosen is actually available, what the ask is, or what the Giants would be willing to pay for him.
You're talking about this like Rosen is just sitting there and all you need to do is put a 3rd rd pick in a vending machine and wallah - we have a QB!
It's not about appeal. For better or worse, they want to win games this year and think they can improve the team in the interim.
I'd prefer to swing a deal for Rosen if the option is there - but I have no idea if the option is there. Do you? Does anyone? All we're doing is guessing.
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At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
.
I would argue that the Steelers had all that except maybe coaching.
If the Steelers had that then maybe it helps explain their 12 win per season (roughly) average and not less than 8 wins in a season since 2003.
You know the Giants won't improve all those areas probably in what's left of Eli's career. And that was my point about fans saying Eli needs the other facets to be perfect. If you disagree fine, it is an opinion, what doesn't he need resolved to succeed?
And I've read many fans complain about each of those facets.
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to say that those who believe in Eli are arguing that Eli can succeed if everything else is perfect, or if they had the late-80s SF 49ers roster.
That is horse shit. No one is saying that Eli needs everything to be perfect.
All most Eli supporters have stated is that he could still perform at a productive level if the offensive wasn't complete dog shit for nearly a decade.
There is an enormous difference between not having an impossibly bad offensive line for nearly a decade and needing everything to be perfect.
And that says nothing of how bad the defense has been for the better part of the last decade as well.
It's not really a strawman if you read this site and have heard fan comments over the years.
And again, I'm not saying this myself, I do think the Giants can probably win some games with Eli, I also think they can probably win games though with a lot of QB's though.
Anyway, I have read fans and talking heads say the OL stinks, Eli has no time. So I think we all agree Eli needs a better OL.
Then what can he live without? what doesn't need to be perfect? running game? WR's? coaching?
Giants leading rushers before Barkley since the last SB (in order)
Bradshaw (1015)
Andre Brown (492)
Andre Williams (721)
Rashad Jennings (863)
Rashad Jennings (593)
Orleans Darkwa (751)
I've read multiple fans complaints about that group (and rightly so) as Eli struggled over the years.
receivers? After Beckham, and to a lesser extent Shepard no wide receiver on the Giants did anything acceptable, even Ruben Randle or especially Ruben Randle.
So now in 2018 running game solved, Barkley is the real deal.
quality receivers should not have been an issue with Beckham, Shepard, Engram.
You have a running game, wide receivers, but your OL stinks and now that's the reason for the offensive struggles.
It's the OL or coaching. until Beckham was injured.
I have read all of that on here, no one is creating a straw man. read the threads it's all there.
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
So what can Eli thrive without? Because all those variables are not going to be fixed in one off-season.
It begins and ends with the offensive line. Some teams have very high quality offensive lines, like the Steelers and the Patriots to name a couple.
The run game was dog shit in large part due to the offensive line-- it certainly wasn't personnel where Reese and Ross drafted 9 RBs in the same period they drafted 11 OL. Barkley was amazing as a generational talent, but for large part of the season he was being contacted after moving 6 inches.
But pointing out that the Giants had several bad personnel groups on offense doesn't further the argument that the Eli needs everything to be perfect, but rather that he was saddled by a lot of bad. What did any of those RBs do after leaving the Giants?
What did Ruben Randle do after leaving the Giants?
In every iteration of what the Giants have put out over the last 8-9 years, there have been two constants: Eli Manning and a horrific offensive line play, often in both run blocking and pass protection.
So by stating that in 2018 they had a great RB and WR weapons but still struggled, that it must mean that Eli needs everything to be perfect still misses the point. Because in that version, the offensive line was still awful. It improved in the second half of the season, but was by no means good, let alone excellent (and then they lost Beckham for the last 4 so they didn't have the WR weapons anyway).
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Not to this level of detail, but this is a question I always ask in these debates to the Eli Army.
And I'm fairly certain the most common answer is crickets.
And that makes sense because a legitimate case for Eli to lead a team in the SB is almost impossible to make.
Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
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is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
What does his accumulated salary over a decade an a half have to do with anything at all?
Taylor is garbage.
This is true. And what kind of offense are we running now? A WCO that is predicated on timing and short, accurate passes...neither of which were Eli's strong suit even on his best days.
Eli remains a bad fit for the offense the Giants currently run.
Taylor is garbage.
I'm not a huge Tyrod Taylor fan, but he's a better fit for this offense than Eli is, and more likely to help get the most out of Barkley given his mobility, short yardage accuracy, and propensity not to turn the ball over.
And his cap hit is 1/4 of Eli's. So it's not just Taylor vs. Eli. It's Taylor + 2 or 3 players vs. Eli.
It begins and ends with the offensive line. Some teams have very high quality offensive lines, like the Steelers and the Patriots to name a couple.
Thats not true either.. Patriots don't spend too much on OL.. part of why their OL looks good is their QB's movement and his passing is spot on both in terms o accuracy and touch.. If you don't believe me then look at their 2015 season.. by the second half of their season they had a worse OL than the Giants.. 2 of their starters never even played another game after their loss in AFC conference finals.. Yet.. Brady kept the offense moving.. He didn't have a strong running game either that season and god knows his WR were not great.. QB doesn't need to be mobile to help the OL.. moving within the pocket and dumping the ball off with precision accuracy and touch can solve the problem..
Correct?
So, it's really not a strawman.
When the Giants were starting WR's like Louis Murphy and even when Dwayne Harris started I read about how bad the WR's were. No QB can win with these JAGs.
When the Giants were starting RB's like Andre Williams, I read about how bad the RB's were. No QB can win with these JAGs.
When the OL had Flowers and Omameh and others I read about how bad the OL was. No QB can win with these JAGs.
So, with the addition of at least Zeitler (a top 5 G) and the improved play of Solder and Hernandez, plus likely at least one more OL (RT) the OL should be at worst league average.
The receivers will have Tate, Shepard, Engram (plus whoever else).
RB's should be good with Barkley and Gallman
So, Eli should be able to perform well, right?
And assuming health of the key contributors there should be no), but his [blank] stinks. because if you do see that then the strawman is real (like it has been). This time it's OL and maybe it has been, but that's not always what you'd read on here and other places.
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In comment 14347482 Eric on Li said:
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is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
What does his accumulated salary over a decade an a half have to do with anything at all?
Just goes to prove that Giants have taken care of him and paid him.. This year he is going to count as the 7th highest CAP hit of all the QB.. He should've been asked to take a cut so he can get the center he needs or a RT..
Yes, if the offensive line plays well this year, I expect Eli to have a good season. Let's see if Barkley can go 6 inches without getting hit. Let's see if they can actually maintain a pocket for Eli to step up into instead of having our center and right side of our line bull-rushed right into him.
When was the last season the Giants offensive line was above average as a unit? It has been too long that the offensive line was towards the bottom of the league.
Yes, if the offensive line plays well this year, I expect Eli to have a good season. Let's see if Barkley can go 6 inches without getting hit. Let's see if they can actually maintain a pocket for Eli to step up into instead of having our center and right side of our line bull-rushed right into him.
When was the last season the Giants offensive line was above average as a unit? It has been too long that the offensive line was towards the bottom of the league.
I don't know. OL evaluation is sort of sketchy, most of us (at least I'm not) are not qualified to really evaluate the OL.
Is the OL or is it the RB? Is it the OL or is it the QB?
This year we knew the OL was dogshit, but has it been consistently since 2011? Not sure.
I do know on last year's team the only questionable position groups were OL and QB (at least theoretically).
So if you fix the OL then Eli needs to perform even if say the WR group takes a step back.
I hope he does and Eli goes out on top, but I hope this also points out to you that the straw man you accused me of creating is not a strawman.
People on this site (and other places) 100% absolutely complained about all of the items below:
1. OL
2. RB
3. Coaching/play calling
4. WR
probably in that order.
Eli is neither "The" problem or "The" solution moving forward. If you think Eli can carry this team to the playoffs like he did in 2011 (yes he did do that), you are wrong. He's not that guy anymore. He could be the guy that's good enough to win it with a good team around like big brother did for the Broncos but .... this team is no where near good enough to do that. Alternatively, none of the rookie QBs last year, this year, or next year can carry this team into the playoffs. Tom Brady, Drew Bress, Russell Wilson, etc couldn't carry this team to the playoffs either.
Bottom line, no player could get this team to the Super Bowl. We can re-evaluate again before the season starts (after the draft, FA, trades, etc). Let the Giants build around the QB REGARDLESS of who is at the position until they get the QB of the future. Don't waste precious picks (high picks) on a damn maybe. Want to give a QB the best possible situation to grow, learn, and succeed? Give him an OL that can protect him. Give him a running game. Give him a defense that can hold a damn lead at the end of a game. A defense that can get the ball back in his hands as quick as possible. Hell, just give the man a fighting chance because the current team can't do that. Throwing a rookie back there now is like tying one of his hands behind his back!
This is spot on. Perfectly said. For all those that want Eli gone, do you think a rookie QB can come in and win with this team. How did Darnold do last year with the Jets? did they win? How about Rosen? Allen? anyone? Build the team then get the QB. It will give them a better chance to win if the team around them is better.
Taylor was garbage in the playoff game he played against JAX. Totally useless - they weren't concerned with him throwing the football at all. Between he and Bortles it was one of the worst playoff games I've ever watched as it applies to the QB position.
Taylor was awful before the Browns benched him, too. I don't think they were planning on going to Mayfield quite that soon - but Taylor forced their hand against the Jets because he was so bad.
If we're trying to win some games and have a young guy in the fold to take over if we don't, I'm fine with Eli being the bridge.
I'd still probably rather hitch my wagon to Eli for one year at age 38 with a better line than I would Taylor.
Cost controlled QBs are the new wave of the NFL (if those QBs are not Brees Rodgers or Brady esque)
Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of Taylor's...but with his mobility and ball security I think he'd be a good fit in an offense designed to get the ball out quickly to Barkley, Engram, and Tate. Better fit than Eli, anyway. And that $13.5M would have covered, as an example: Weddle (safety), Ty Nsekhe (right tackle), Deonne Bucannon (SS/ILB), and JJ Nelson (deep threat WR).
You can go on Spotrac's free agent page and play that game all day, and of course you never know who would be willing to sign where. The point is that that additional $13.5M gives you options you wouldn't otherwise have had.
Comical
I'm not sure which is actually more comical - that you went with "2 more years" when Eli has one year remaining on his contract and the Giants have so far shown no eager desire to extend him when doing so would help with the cap; or that you decided to throw a political comment into a thread that had nothing to do with politics by adding "Hillary."
Comical indeed.
We are veering once again into the blame game of the last 7 years which has dominated countless threads in the last 2 years
My intention was to stir a new discussion about how the treatment of Eli by management has poisoned the culture and is irreparable while he is still present on the roster
I dont think the team culture can be fixed while Eli is treated differently then everyone else
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Watch a HOF QB for 2 more years Hillary.
Comical
I'm not sure which is actually more comical - that you went with "2 more years" when Eli has one year remaining on his contract and the Giants have so far shown no eager desire to extend him when doing so would help with the cap; or that you decided to throw a political comment into a thread that had nothing to do with politics by adding "Hillary."
Comical indeed.
1. Cutting Eli for someone they determine to be the QB of the future and ready to play immediately (like Rosen) would have made sense. Not for Tyrod Taylor - who in his entire career has never even had a single season as good as Eli's last year. If Eli's year last year was the problem, a worse player would really really be the problem, no?
2. I'm not convinced the extra money would have gone as far in gaining much of a competitive advantage. Let's say the extra $ meant they increased their offers enough to get Bucannon and Williams - 2 good players they were in on who I think would have been great gets. I don't think those 2 make the team better than the difference between Eli & Tyrod - especially when factoring in they will probably end up adding lower cost alternatives like Remmers to fortify the positions those more expensive FA would have stepped into. So IMO Eli/Remmers/cheap vet LB would still outperform Tyrod/Williams/Bucannon. They were also likely to use some of their draft picks at both of those positions either way, which could have further nullified the difference.
Again, if we added Rosen, terrific, move on from Eli and add as many extra players as you can around him. But with retreads? It's hard for me to think there's any difference in quality as meaningful as downgrading from a consistent 4k yard, 20+ td, durable starter who already knows the offense to a guy who is none of those things, albeit more mobile.
Keeping Eli and using the draft capital they built up to identify someone with 5 years of cheap control happens to be the best move to win now without giving up any future $ flexibility and secure the franchise longer term - IF they get the decision right. That's the part that matters exponentially more than Eli vs. Tyrod.
Place what blame you want where ever you want, but he hasn't been part of the solution either.
One thing the OP stated that I agree with, His tearful interview at his locker after the benching was not appropriate.
Place what blame you want where ever you want, but he hasn't been part of the solution either.
One thing the OP stated that I agree with, His tearful interview at his locker after the benching was not appropriate.
WTF?
WTF, man. You guys suck.
Seriously...
Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
The object with this team shouldn't be the SB. It should accepting the probability that Eli is no longer a SB winning QB; and start a process to see who Eli's successor is - Lauletta, a rookie QB, a player like Rosen via trade, etc.
If you think about it, this team is setting a decent stage to allow for that audition - an improved OL, a terrific young RB, a play-making TE, and a dependable veteran slot guy in Tate.
Unfortunately this FO just can't see the value in that...
We are veering once again into the blame game of the last 7 years which has dominated countless threads in the last 2 years
My intention was to stir a new discussion about how the treatment of Eli by management has poisoned the culture and is irreparable while he is still present on the roster
I dont think the team culture can be fixed while Eli is treated differently then everyone else
Veering off into the blame game???
Dude, that was the whole point of our post and you starting this thread.
"Eli is the ROT!!!" but I'm not blaming him.
Jesus.
Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of Taylor's...but with his mobility and ball security I think he'd be a good fit in an offense designed to get the ball out quickly to Barkley, Engram, and Tate. Better fit than Eli, anyway. And that $13.5M would have covered, as an example: Weddle (safety), Ty Nsekhe (right tackle), Deonne Bucannon (SS/ILB), and JJ Nelson (deep threat WR).
You can go on Spotrac's free agent page and play that game all day, and of course you never know who would be willing to sign where. The point is that that additional $13.5M gives you options you wouldn't otherwise have had.
Enough with this bullshit of a mobile QB. Since the 1999 Super Bowl there has been only 2 mobile QBs that have won the Super Bowl, Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers. Only 2, and I would not exactly call Rodgers a mobile QB. Yet you would have rathered signed T. Taylor. The trenches win games and a solid QB. I really hope Eli sticks it to us good and has an awesome year. Then this place will implode, sign him again or not. It is my hope for the Giants and our fans this happens. Then maybe Eli will be left alone. Season can not get here fast enough so we can see more of the plan by DG.
No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
I agree - they want to win games. But they want to do that with Eli because they know he has enough appeal to keep a fairly large portion of their customer base happy.
Seriously...
Leaving out Mara is a serious oversight.
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Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
The object with this team shouldn't be the SB. It should accepting the probability that Eli is no longer a SB winning QB; and start a process to see who Eli's successor is - Lauletta, a rookie QB, a player like Rosen via trade, etc.
If you think about it, this team is setting a decent stage to allow for that audition - an improved OL, a terrific young RB, a play-making TE, and a dependable veteran slot guy in Tate.
Unfortunately this FO just can't see the value in that...
Well, the object for them is to always win so they have decided upon a two-pronged way to move forward (win as much as possible while rebuilding). Agree or disagree.
I don't disagree that they are setting a great stage. But that implies that the stage wasn't so great before. That's where some people think that some of the criticisms (or blame) of ELi are unfair. Personally, I can sympathize with that and I am actually interested in seeing how he performs under better than horrid conditions. SO, to some extent I am excited to see him play this year.
OTOH, I recognize that he's pretty much at the end of his career and that we need to transition forward. Where I really disagree with folks is that I strongly believe that setting that stage was the highest priority for building a SB winning team in the future (let's at least agree that winning a SB at some point is a laudable goal and accomplishment, yes?). If I have the best complete team, then I'm okay with filling in the best QB at a later point if necessary. SO, I really support and am still ecstatic with the Barkley pick, eschewing the QB options. Likewise, I am extremely hopeful that they will use every high pick, because the holes are so many and the draft so defensively strong, to better the team as opposed to taking a JAG or short (and likely short-term) QB high or trading valuable asset (even a 2nd round pick) for an iffy, likely very very short-term QB this year when just when year away is a plethora for quality candidates. I think by next year tat this time, with this full draft and with a boatload of cap space, we will be in outstanding position as a team and will just need that final piece at QB.
Since that's my approach, I'm on the fence with Eli, not because I need to audition Lauletta...I'm almost 100% certain they know what they have in Lauletta by this point...but that I think him playing will facilitate us getting closer to the draft pick we want. I don't actually feel we need to be all that close to get one of the candidates but, even so, I would trade my whole draft next year to move up to get the one I want. So, I would be okay with cutting ELi, playing Lauletta but, like I said, for enjoyment of the upcoming season I am also excited to see what Eli can do under fair conditions. And, again I emphasize, I know that we are only talking about one single year. And then he's gone.
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
So if that's the case Britt, and let's say management does in fact view Manning as a placeholder:
1) is it wise to pay the placeholder 23M against any cheaper alternative?
2) if management doesn't pick a QB in this draft, should Manning return in 2020 and at what salary?
3) if management selects a QB, are they prepared to sit Manning as soon as the rookie is ready to function?
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In comment 14347452 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
So if that's the case Britt, and let's say management does in fact view Manning as a placeholder:
1) is it wise to pay the placeholder 23M against any cheaper alternative?
2) if management doesn't pick a QB in this draft, should Manning return in 2020 and at what salary?
3) if management selects a QB, are they prepared to sit Manning as soon as the rookie is ready to function?
1. If they want the best option to win, and have an out at the end of the season with zero money on the books, then yes. Consider it a one year, 23 million dollar deal.
2. Tied to one. If they don't pick a QB at the end of the draft they can give a one year extension and get that cost down over the course of the two years, more "more in line to his level of play" as some have said (although another poster has pointed out that he's just average in pay among QB's right now).
3. How do I know? Depends on a lot of things, I guess. Are they winning? Is Manning a detriment? Is the rookie ready? Too many variable to forecast.
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No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
I agree - they want to win games. But they want to do that with Eli because they know he has enough appeal to keep a fairly large portion of their customer base happy.
I think that for *any* team, winning games *is* marketing. It is a business after all. I do think that they fell that Eli is the best of any available or potential option to help them achieve that next year. DOesn't mean that they are still doing other things to work for the future, including QB of the future. Just means that while they are doing he's the best to help them win. In all of these discussions, with the exception of Go Terp's push for Tyrod Taylor, which is purely based on salary and not W-L, there has not been a reasonable alternative suggested.
It's all tied to W-L...including the salary cap. There is a definite correlation between ROI and win-loss records. Eli isn't just a poor fit for this offense; he's a terrible value for his significant cost. His cost could cover several players at other positions for a team that has needs everywhere. If he were an elite player you could look the other way on that, but he isn't an elite player and there are viable alternatives that would be likely to play at his level for a fraction of the cost.
It's a good point, but it dismisses the very real possibility that his weaknesses and poor performances will be dismissed/excused by management, and/or his good moments will be amplified.
It's all tied to W-L...including the salary cap. There is a definite correlation between ROI and win-loss records. Eli isn't just a poor fit for this offense; he's a terrible value for his significant cost. His cost could cover several players at other positions for a team that has needs everywhere. If he were an elite player you could look the other way on that, but he isn't an elite player and there are viable alternatives that would be likely to play at his level for a fraction of the cost.
I disagree with you that the cost for this season is an issue. I know that you listed names where the 17M - the cost of his replacement (8M for Taylor was mentioned)...say, 9M could be spent, but there is no evidence at all that they wre interested in spending it on those or any other names but were unable to do so. If that were the case, I would expect that you would see them re-doing Jenkins or Zeitler or a couple other contracts where they could free up sufficient cash. It looks to me like they are not spending because they choose not to as opposed to them being unable to. And, if that's the case, then Eli's salary is irrelevant. ROI has no meaning here and his money is not useful unless it is used.
So would it be fair to say you think the Giants can win a championship with Manning?
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IS the problem this year will be a total shitshow and it will ultimately help the team get his replacement.
It's a good point, but it dismisses the very real possibility that his weaknesses and poor performances will be dismissed/excused by management, and/or his good moments will be amplified.
True. No one gains though by bashing Eli. My point was though that if this year is a shit show and Eli is the QB, the Giants record would be bad and it would help get Eli's replacement by having a good 2020 draft pick as a result of the shit show
That is not an insignificant number, and could have been used to buy some real assets to help in 2019. And again, I'd argue Taylor is a better fit for Shurmur's offense. Eli is, frankly, a terrible fit for this offense.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
That is not an insignificant number, and could have been used to buy some real assets to help in 2019. And again, I'd argue Taylor is a better fit for Shurmur's offense. Eli is, frankly, a terrible fit for this offense.
Again I would argue that even at that number, they could free it up elsewhere now if they wanted to buy those assets. But they haven't. To me, that says Eli's money is not burdensome. On, Taylor, I'll just say that I have a btter opinion of ELi's (current) ability than you do.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
I think that for *any* team, winning games *is* marketing. It is a business after all. I do think that they fell that Eli is the best of any available or potential option to help them achieve that next year. DOesn't mean that they are still doing other things to work for the future, including QB of the future. Just means that while they are doing he's the best to help them win. In all of these discussions, with the exception of Go Terp's push for Tyrod Taylor, which is purely based on salary and not W-L, there has not been a reasonable alternative suggested.
I have given alternatives. As usual I will get killed for this, which is fine because most people here don't watch other games, but I think trading for Jeff Driskel would be a very smart move. He's only at $800K-ish and showed very well filling in for Dalton last year. He's only 26, has a terrific arm, can really move and he's got live game experience. So at the very least it's a nice stop-gap. But, but if he hits, well we last landed a nice young player who fits the bill of the ideal QB Shurmur craves for his offense...
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
I don't think that Eli will be here in 2020 regardless, so I think that part of your fear is unfounded. I also think that next year is so flush that it still wouldn't be an issue as far as being able to reach a QB. Regardless, I would pretty much do a Mike Lynn trade to move up to get one, so I'm not bothered. We would otherwise be in good position to go the FA router in lieu of a draft for a year (or two) because we are going to be flush next year.
The main thing though is...what is the worth of being in the playoffs? Philosophically, do you trade damaging your chance to solidify your future (by getting a better draft pick) by making the playoffs and even a shot at the SB? I think I would; it's why they play (and I watch) the games after all.
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Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
2. Too many people are concerned with winning this year, just like last year. Those of us that want to move on (again) don't give a shit how well the team does. This team needs to focus on the long term.
3. "What QB could be better as a placeholder?" Again, it doesn't matter. This team is not going to the playoffs next year, and any win they get makes it harder to get a QB like Fromm in the next draft.
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In comment 14347947 bw in dc said:
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Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
When is your sabbatical due?
Such evidence is unlikely to ever exist. We won't be hearing Gettleman report that he would have liked to have signed _______, but didn't even bother attempting to do so because of Eli's salary.
Regardless, that it is very funny.
Sticking with the "Dilfered" narrative, eh?
Embarrassing.
Wow, Less is a very appropriate name for you.
If Eli is the starting QB, I will root like hell for them to win a SB.
But the realist in me will not allow me to root for the team to take this approach to the most important position on the football field.
It's lunacy to run him out there and expect different results this time.
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In comment 14347947 bw in dc said:
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Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
I think Eli is at the end of a steep decline but would never try to make the argument that winning with him could ever be bad.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
Very well said.
Count me in the middle. Eli has been a problem - but he is not the problem.
Eli is a good player capable of greatness when surrounded by a better cast. No doubt the o-line has been an issue. But Eli has not elevated the team over that short coming.
You guys seriously don't see that this is classic trolling behavior?
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You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. Im sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offenses poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
You guys seriously don't see that this is classic trolling behavior?
Of course.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
This what if is weird to me. Why would I be scared of a winning season, a playoff win, or even a potential SB. I would welcome it and smile the whole way. since 2000 other than the patriots the giants have been to 3 SBs. not many teams with supposedly better QBs, better defenses, better coacches, and with better records can make that claim. have we gone long strectches as a bad team, yes. But we still made it to 3 SBs and are 2/3 in the last 19 years. think about that for a moment.
Of course I would take the silverware, but I think all of that would require overcoming long, long odds.
We have a GM that walked into a mess, a recycled head coach, a team with material gaps on both sides of the ball, and the aging QB.
Does that feel stable to you to produce such an outcome?
I think you made a mistake framing it the way you did. If we go 10-6 and WIN a playoff game...Full stop. AWESOME SAUCE! That would mean the team is decent. DG draft was solid and the FA signings worked out. Unless we had some kind of freakish turnover +XX ratio or we win all our close games that would go back to the mean the following year(McAdoo). You do yourself no favors making this point. Just my opinion.
I think Eli is at the end of a steep decline but would never try to make the argument that winning with him could ever be bad.
Fair enough.
I always look through the lens of what if is going to take to build a consistent winner for consecutive years. Not these one-offs.
All your "suggestions" are variations of " hey take a chance how could it be worse?" or "maybe its Darnold but that will take a few years to find out"
As reasoning goes this kind of swirl does not even make it to a hypothetical syllogism
I said it before the last two seasons - any season we go into with him as the starting quarterback is a lost season. Everything I've seen since leaves me just as convinced heading into this season.
But the problem isn't Eli, it's ownership.
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Very well said, wish I had written it myself.
The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.
This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".
FFS, whats up with people named Jim!!!
Why do you ask?
All your "suggestions" are variations of " hey take a chance how could it be worse?" or "maybe its Darnold but that will take a few years to find out"
As reasoning goes this kind of swirl does not even make it to a hypothetical syllogism
I'm not looking to get better in the short term (w/Eli). I'm trying to find the best solution to get better in the long term. And sustain that over time.
And to do that, IMV, we need to get younger on both sides of the ball; and much younger and more mobile at QB.
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
Better lines while he learns?
Younger lines for the sake of it?
Some practical mix of the two on the lines with a lean towards younger as long as better is soon to come?
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
Rosen. Admittedly I don't know for certain that he's available, though it's not a huge leap of logic to think he is. If he's available he's a better option for the Giants in 2019 than Eli.
Despite a questionable center and RT?
Despite a questionable center and RT?
At a second rounder I wouldn't think twice. Rosen is highly accurate in the short to intermediate passes this offense features. His background as a tennis player has given him the footwork to excel in the screen and quick pass game in ways that Eli never did even at his very best.
If expect increases in YAC for Engram and Barkley right off the bat.
And again, that would have been a found $15M on the salary cap had we done this last week.
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
I appreciate the Gettleman no one is sacred, churn approach.
I'd like to see competition; both to avail the best player and shed some light on the quality of the rest of the team.
I believe Tanney and Lualetta are non-competition by design. I know the only alternative data point is a start 16 months ago by one Geno Smith who didn't fair much worse as a variable in the equation.
I'd like to see a camp with AJ McCarron, Josh Rosen (substitute 1st round pick), and Eli Manning. I'd like to see under fair evaluation, who is better right now and the medium-term.
I want the staff to come out of the process and say; we are putting our eggs in the basket of a guy we think we will win a future championship for this team.
If the team isn't quite there, I'd rather a character like McCarron take the lumps while the rookie/Rosen gears up, and hand the baton mid-season.
And lost in my rambling, hello Bill, hope life is treating you well.
I've posted the rhetorical "can Manning be champion again" a number of times without answering; the roster needs another 2 drafts and a dynamite UFA next year -- if Manning is the same guy he was weeks 9-17 with no degradation over the next 2 years, then yes.
And again, whatever you may think of Rosen there is one thing that is inarguable - he is a supremely talented thrower of the football. The reward with him is potentially extremely high.
And again, whatever you may think of Rosen there is one thing that is inarguable - he is a supremely talented thrower of the football. The reward with him is potentially extremely high.
The more time that goes by, I think Rosen just makes sense. I'd give AZ our 2nd rounder for him and hope it works out. Wonder what Shurmur thinks of him?
Obviously if that's a route available to us, it's what I'd prefer to do. It makes sense for several reasons.
The only obvious questions are: how willing is Arizona to actually deal him; and how interested are NYG?
Unfortunately, if jt is correct - it seems the latter would render the former question worthless to even answer since he maintains they're a "no" on Rosen.
I don't know if that means the Giants just aren't interested, or if it means that they are - but not at the purported ask.
The only thing I am hanging onto here is that Gettleman definitely seems to be sending out more smoke this year than he did last year and I think NYG's draft approach seems more fluid/flexible - which naturally comes with the additional capital - but it doesn't feel like we're really married to a specific player like we were with Barkley. At least not at this juncture.
Eli being here and being the one to pass the baton really doesn't bug me that much. The pause when asked if Eli was "promised" the starting gig did, though. I don't understand why it needs to be approached that way.
Just say we know who Eli is, we know what he's capable of and that he'll be given every opportunity to retain his job... but is a promise really necessary at this juncture? If we draft someone or bring someone else in and they outperform him in camp, it should be their job. There's no reason why anyone should just be promised the job given the current landscape of the team.
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
Yes. I would have cut Eli for for his cap money. And reinvested that elsewhere. I'm just deferring to the football actuarial tables that Eli is very close to "the cliff". So time to get into the QB audition phase of the transition.
Like Terps, I would be very aggressive to secure Rosen. Economically, it's a win-win. Low risk all the way around. Unfortunately, whatever negative view the Giants had of him last year pre-draft appears, by some accounts, to have extended to this year as well.
Otherwise, there are multiple ways I would play this. Draft a QB in the second or third round this year - I am partial to Finley, Grier, and even Thorson. Or I could consider a trade for Lock at #17, but that's a tougher sell - or trade for a Driskel-type or go with Lauletta. And let the audition begin.
If we fail with any of those, including Rosen, we are likely in the driver's seat for a top QB in the 2020 draft.
As I mentioned earlier, what I like is that we have now have the beginning of a nice offensive infrastructure with a better OL, a terrific RB, a solid slot WR, and a good TE. A solid surrounding for a new QB.
And, the likeliest outcome still remains that we begin the build around and forgo QB picks next year...which is actually what we would almost certainly do even if he sucks. Nobody throws away that pick without giving him more than a year to show for himself...and he retires due to the cerebral hematoma and we are stuck for half a decade in QB hell
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playoffs. Heck, suppose they win it all. And if they did, as you fear reward him and sign Eli for another year and put off the future. Would that be so bad? What if he cold do it again? What if the drop-off really was the OL and D or whatever. Would it be wrong to run for however long the string went?
Of course I would take the silverware, but I think all of that would require overcoming long, long odds.
We have a GM that walked into a mess, a recycled head coach, a team with material gaps on both sides of the ball, and the aging QB.
Does that feel stable to you to produce such an outcome?
Well, this was your scenario in the first place....My fear is.... so you fear it in one post and argue against the possibility of it happening in another. That makes no sense.
Because of the commitment to Eli, the Giants passed on Darnold in the 2018 draft and do not appear to be interested in Rosen in the 2019 offseason.
Rosen's situation still has yet to play out, and if Arizona opts to keep him I'll admit to being wrong and withdraw any criticism of the Giants for not pursuing him. But if Rosen ends up being traded to the Dolphins or Patriots for a 3rd round pick, I think many of us are going to be within our rights to be aggravated at the Giants' approach.
Both Darnold and Rosen are high level QB prospects. To pass on an opportunity to add either over the course of a year because we thought Eli "could still play"...that would be tough to accept.
And, the likeliest outcome still remains that we begin the build around and forgo QB picks next year...which is actually what we would almost certainly do even if he sucks. Nobody throws away that pick without giving him more than a year to show for himself...and he retires due to the cerebral hematoma and we are stuck for half a decade in QB hell
Why would we lose the chance to improve the offensive line by way of surrendering a 2nd round pick for Rosen?
We could go BPA defense @ 6, we could look for ORT @ 17. We can also look OL in round 3 or 4.
Giving up pick 37 and maybe a future 3rd or something of that ilk precludes us from being able to improve the offensive line?
I don't really understand that logic.
Because of the commitment to Eli, the Giants passed on Darnold in the 2018 draft and do not appear to be interested in Rosen in the 2019 offseason.
Rosen's situation still has yet to play out, and if Arizona opts to keep him I'll admit to being wrong and withdraw any criticism of the Giants for not pursuing him. But if Rosen ends up being traded to the Dolphins or Patriots for a 3rd round pick, I think many of us are going to be within our rights to be aggravated at the Giants' approach.
Both Darnold and Rosen are high level QB prospects. To pass on an opportunity to add either over the course of a year because we thought Eli "could still play"...that would be tough to accept.
Do you think that Eli Manning gets a contract from another NFL team right away?
If so - what kind of deal do you think he'd get?
There was no way in hell they were going to draft Darnold to push Eli out the door.
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We lose the chance to improve the OL that you say youwant to improve (or the DL f we take OL at #17). That pick is a useful asset. So, if he sucks, we lose the chance to better ourselves and go back in the mix with the same quandary about moving up in 2020 but more holes to fill.
And, the likeliest outcome still remains that we begin the build around and forgo QB picks next year...which is actually what we would almost certainly do even if he sucks. Nobody throws away that pick without giving him more than a year to show for himself...and he retires due to the cerebral hematoma and we are stuck for half a decade in QB hell
Why would we lose the chance to improve the offensive line by way of surrendering a 2nd round pick for Rosen?
We could go BPA defense @ 6, we could look for ORT @ 17. We can also look OL in round 3 or 4.
Giving up pick 37 and maybe a future 3rd or something of that ilk precludes us from being able to improve the offensive line?
I don't really understand that logic.
That #2 gets us a top tier OL or, as I said, Defensive player (where we need many top players) if they go OL at 17. If they go DL, DL, then they lose the opportunity...minimal chance a starting is in round 3 or later...to fix the line which we say is needed for a young qb to succeed.
Better use of resources is fix the holes this year and plug in the QB afterward.
There was no way in hell they were going to draft Darnold to push Eli out the door.
But Its easy to bet a paycheck on something that is not testable. At least you can agree that we will never know.
Nope
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In comment 14348472 Bill L said:
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We lose the chance to improve the OL that you say youwant to improve (or the DL f we take OL at #17). That pick is a useful asset. So, if he sucks, we lose the chance to better ourselves and go back in the mix with the same quandary about moving up in 2020 but more holes to fill.
And, the likeliest outcome still remains that we begin the build around and forgo QB picks next year...which is actually what we would almost certainly do even if he sucks. Nobody throws away that pick without giving him more than a year to show for himself...and he retires due to the cerebral hematoma and we are stuck for half a decade in QB hell
Why would we lose the chance to improve the offensive line by way of surrendering a 2nd round pick for Rosen?
We could go BPA defense @ 6, we could look for ORT @ 17. We can also look OL in round 3 or 4.
Giving up pick 37 and maybe a future 3rd or something of that ilk precludes us from being able to improve the offensive line?
I don't really understand that logic.
That #2 gets us a top tier OL or, as I said, Defensive player (where we need many top players) if they go OL at 17. If they go DL, DL, then they lose the opportunity...minimal chance a starting is in round 3 or later...to fix the line which we say is needed for a young qb to succeed.
Better use of resources is fix the holes this year and plug in the QB afterward.
I don't think the 2nd round pick we'd spend on an offensive lineman has significantly better odds (if better odds at all) of being a "hit" pick than Rosen succeeding or being a starting-caliber QB.
We'd have an extra dart... maybe two. But that doesn't mean we're going to throw bullseyes with them - we may even miss the board entirely.
What if Rosen does pan out? Now we have two top 10 picks from the 2018 draft, a QB/RB duo on rookie deals, and a 3-4 year window to maximize the team around them with the advantages that type of cap structure affords you.
- firing McAdoo and Reese for the benching
- using Accorsi to hire Gettleman
- extending Beckham
- drafting Barkley
- drafting a project QB with Lauletta
- cutting Davis Webb
- signing Tanney
- throwing Lauletta under the bus after his one appearance
- paying Eli his $5M bonus
That all points to "starting QB is not a priority...I think we're good with Eli".
I think Eli is here in 2019, and if he wants to be, 2020 at least.
An insufferable fuck of a troll.
Obviously if that's a route available to us, it's what I'd prefer to do. It makes sense for several reasons.
The only obvious questions are: how willing is Arizona to actually deal him; and how interested are NYG?
Unfortunately, if jt is correct - it seems the latter would render the former question worthless to even answer since he maintains they're a "no" on Rosen.
I don't know if that means the Giants just aren't interested, or if it means that they are - but not at the purported ask.
The only thing I am hanging onto here is that Gettleman definitely seems to be sending out more smoke this year than he did last year and I think NYG's draft approach seems more fluid/flexible - which naturally comes with the additional capital - but it doesn't feel like we're really married to a specific player like we were with Barkley. At least not at this juncture.
Eli being here and being the one to pass the baton really doesn't bug me that much. The pause when asked if Eli was "promised" the starting gig did, though. I don't understand why it needs to be approached that way.
Just say we know who Eli is, we know what he's capable of and that he'll be given every opportunity to retain his job... but is a promise really necessary at this juncture? If we draft someone or bring someone else in and they outperform him in camp, it should be their job. There's no reason why anyone should just be promised the job given the current landscape of the team.
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Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls
An insufferable fuck of a troll.
Gettleman has seemingly made it very clear he wants to find the franchises next QB sooner rather than later. I think it's fair to evaluate who we end up with whenever it happens and keep Eli around in the interim. QB's have the highest bust rate of any position - rushing into the first available option seems like an invitation for trouble, especially since we now have the draft capital to be strategic (either this year or next).
If the Giants have a chance to markedly improve the quality of QB play in the medium-term, would that not be an extraordinary good use of resources?
Would you disagree QB has an outsized impact on a team, and the jump from average to good at that position is more impactful than a bad to good jump at say right tackle?
If this is about holes, aren't all holes not created equal, and might there be plenty of "hole" at the QB position that could cover for other less important holes?
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Better use of resources is fix the holes this year and plug in the QB afterward.
If the Giants have a chance to markedly improve the quality of QB play in the medium-term, would that not be an extraordinary good use of resources?
Would you disagree QB has an outsized impact on a team, and the jump from average to good at that position is more impactful than a bad to good jump at say right tackle?
If this is about holes, aren't all holes not created equal, and might there be plenty of "hole" at the QB position that could cover for other less important holes?
Well, plugging the other holes eases the transition of the QB. But also, I dont want to just plug with paper mache. The #2 pick gets an OL better than can be gotten otherwise. The qb that we would get next year would be better than we can get therwise. And, I simply dont think Rosen has any sort of shelf life other than one long enough for us to rely and plan around him.
Gettleman has seemingly made it very clear he wants to find the franchises next QB sooner rather than later. I think it's fair to evaluate who we end up with whenever it happens and keep Eli around in the interim. QB's have the highest bust rate of any position - rushing into the first available option seems like an invitation for trouble, especially since we now have the draft capital to be strategic (either this year or next).
Gettleman made it clear it needs to be addressed. There was urgency. But with Francessa he was cagey about using THIS draft to address it. And I forgot the phrase he used, but it gave the impression that a trade was a possibility. Which got me thinking Rosen was back in the picture. But jt indicated - rather strongly - that there is little to no interest in Rosen. So I'm not sure where we are...
I've been reading and hearing more of a steady beat the Giants were not smitten with Haskins at the Combine. Not sure whether it was the interview and/or his work on the field. So I think it's really a mystery right now where or how Gettleman is looking to solve this problem.
And it seems crystal clear that Lauletta is persona non grata these days.
So until more information is available, I think the formula right now is Eli as the starter and Taney as the back-up.
Are we long-term or not?
Fair enough -- if Rosen just isn't good enough to build around -- then case closed.
I wouldn't worry about easing, or the alternative player. If there is a QB who has the skills to be a good starter and he's available for a 2nd round pick, I make the trade ASAP.
I think he's plenty good to invest a pick and can be a good starter, which I think is a marked improvement over the QB play today. I'd peg the current play as average, with plenty of room of to improve.
I think better QB play can cover for a lot, and dial down the pressure on the management and coaching.
Playing in NYC requires a specific mindset that he does not have.
That's why it would be a mistake to bring him here.
The rest I agree with.
Bw, your nightmare scenario would be more realistic if you had simply stopped at them making the playoffs. That I could see happening and fooling them as it did last time.
Just to be clear, my comment above wasnt about his mental acuity or personality, neither of which concerns me too much. My comment was about the cranial injury risk and subsequent precipitous retirement.
Are we long-term or not?
I don't know about next year's crop either being some bumper crop. Tua is a great college QB but I think his medical is a real concern. Herbert looks to be a great athlete playing QB. But he really regressed last year, so who knows where he lands. Fromm looks the steadiest, but I don't see anything really on the plus or plus-plus side.
As I've mentioned before, this draft should have better value in the later rounds. I think Finley would be a very worthwhile selection in round two or three. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually slips into the late first.
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Long-term the draft is rich next year.
Are we long-term or not?
I don't know about next year's crop either being some bumper crop. Tua is a great college QB but I think his medical is a real concern. Herbert looks to be a great athlete playing QB. But he really regressed last year, so who knows where he lands. Fromm looks the steadiest, but I don't see anything really on the plus or plus-plus side.
As I've mentioned before, this draft should have better value in the later rounds. I think Finley would be a very worthwhile selection in round two or three. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually slips into the late first.
Ive no issue with that. I had Stidham late in my mental mock.
And Ive said here many times, that I would actually pick a QB in the mid to late rounds every single draft. Thats regardless of the age or tenure of my starter. Thats my lottery ticket and one day it would pay off. Nassib. Webb, Lauletta...Im okay with them all. Just so long as you cut bait as soon as you know their ceiling.
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Always enjoy when people are somehow convinced they've captured the mindset and thought process of a kid they've spent no actual time around and don't even know personally....
Just to be clear, my comment above wasnt about his mental acuity or personality, neither of which concerns me too much. My comment was about the cranial injury risk and subsequent precipitous retirement.
I know - wasn't a response to your posts, Bill - it was the one above mine.
One thing to call it a concern, another to be sure he can't play in New York. Not sure how someone here could possibly have enough information to know that and express it as a certainty, but.. we know how it goes here.
Josh McCown signed a one year contract at 39 years old for 10 million dollars with the Jets.
Alex Smith signed a 5 year, 85 million dollar deal last year.
And you're telling me that Eli would not get another contract from another team if he were cut tomorrow? Okay, yeah, that's totally rational.
Josh McCown signed a one year contract at 39 years old for 10 million dollars with the Jets.
Alex Smith signed a 5 year, 85 million dollar deal last year.
And you're telling me that Eli would not get another contract from another team if he were cut tomorrow? Okay, yeah, that's totally rational.
What team and terms do you think Manning gets if cut today?
Ive no issue with that. I had Stidham late in my mental mock.
And Ive said here many times, that I would actually pick a QB in the mid to late rounds every single draft. Thats regardless of the age or tenure of my starter. Thats my lottery ticket and one day it would pay off. Nassib. Webb, Lauletta...Im okay with them all. Just so long as you cut bait as soon as you know their ceiling.
Speaking my language now. I would draft a QB every year, too - somewhere. It's a very wise strategy because it will pay a dividend sooner or later. And you can never have enough quality at that position.
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which could go as high as 17-20 million
Josh McCown signed a one year contract at 39 years old for 10 million dollars with the Jets.
Alex Smith signed a 5 year, 85 million dollar deal last year.
And you're telling me that Eli would not get another contract from another team if he were cut tomorrow? Okay, yeah, that's totally rational.
What team and terms do you think Manning gets if cut today?
There is not ONE TEAM that would sign him as a starter.
There is not ONE TEAM that would sign him with a $23 million dollar cap hit.
There are a handful of teams that may toss $5-7 mil with incentives to be a backup.
You ignore probably the single clear problem that probably would have made life hell for any coach they brought it. THEIR DRAFTS HAVE SUCKED. Look at the draft history. Search it now. It is depressing as f****. It is not rocket science why the team is feeling. They have not had great players consistently on the field.
Nice try with the misleading stats at the bottom. 1) What is more relevant is the last few years. 2) Why go back 9 years...how many QB's have started all games except one game in that time period you dumb f****
Nice try with the misleading stats at the bottom. 1) What is more relevant is the last few years. 2) Why go back 9 years...how many QB's have started all games except one game in that time period you dumb f****
The timeframe for the stats are pretty clearly meant to be the time period since the last Super Bowl the Giants won. That seemed obvious, although apparently not to you. Maybe the OP isn't the dumb f***?
The more concrete the recommended actions the more obvious it is that there is high risk, no easy choices and it aint that simple being in charge of any complex organization with about 85 different coaching and playing ( plus practice squad) positions in a tightly balancd industry with an average length of service at 4 years.
Logically, there are about 60 personnel decisions per year.
Logically, there are 4 to 6 alternative people to fill each position.
The possibility of not making 10 "so far seems like" mistakes per year is zilch.
Debating other peoples mistakes is a way to pass time and avoid.
Its the leap to the operating assumption that is easy or obvious or malign/intent or ability that is strange to watch
But no team that is rebuilding or looking to replace veterans would sign him because he is 38 and the future is there. But if Brady decided to retire tomorrow.... I would wager that BB would have no problem hearing the availability of Eli.
Well what do you think the Redskins would have paid him vs. trading for Case Keenum, why not start there. That signing would have Redskins all over it.
Now I can do the hypothetical exercise of naming all the teams like the Redskins or Miami that could have easily signed him, or Jacksonville had he been available, but what's the point? He's not available, and he wasn't available. But there are teams out there where he is an upgrade.
The end.
The Giants are going to pay him $23 million dollars this year - so that is his worth - you are correct.
I guess it's not worth discussing how stupid it is to pay him that much money b/c I find it hard to believe that any team (even Washington) would be willing to do so.
You're only worth what people are willing to pay you - unless you play for the Giants - they are willing to pay way more than market value b/c 7 years ago he was good - and we should just deal with it...got it.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
I totally agree - you are right it's hard to compare since he is currently under contract.
My point is simply keeping Eli at the price they are keeping him at is a big part of the problem.
Not only do I believe that Eli is done - but paying him $23 million dollars (which is way above market value) is compounding the problem since it prohibits them from making other moves to improve the team around him in the rebuilding process.
So what you are saying is that a guy like Blake Bortles who got the AFc championship game and a division title in 2017 is better than Eli?
You want your opinion to go on record like that? At some point fans need to stop watching Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith and all these fucking shows on cable TV to learn the game. Its bad for your health.
Eli Manning is NOT the reason the team has stunk. He has been a contributor. Nothing more or nothing less. But with better personnel around him - he can still EASILy win in the NFL.
For christ sakes, Giants fans are the fucking worst.
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versus what the Giants agreed to pay him in the past. They are not operating under the same conditions. If they choose to keep him, and they do, then they are bound by the contract.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
I totally agree - you are right it's hard to compare since he is currently under contract.
My point is simply keeping Eli at the price they are keeping him at is a big part of the problem.
Not only do I believe that Eli is done - but paying him $23 million dollars (which is way above market value) is compounding the problem since it prohibits them from making other moves to improve the team around him in the rebuilding process.
Name ONE move it prevented us from doing. Just one. And dont throw random names out there as if its a guarantee they would have been signed if we wanted them.
trading for Ogletree
Signing divs WR to a huge contract
Kareem Martin to a bad deal
Omameh to a terrible deal
Its didnt hamper us in 2016 when we spent out of our ass in getting defensive players.
Lets try and keep facts straight about the Giants. Throwing out lies just looks bad at this point.
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that grown men and woman (we'll I'm assuming their grown) have to a fading super-star that clearly can't win anymore in the NFL to be equally comical.
So what you are saying is that a guy like Blake Bortles who got the AFc championship game and a division title in 2017 is better than Eli?
You want your opinion to go on record like that? At some point fans need to stop watching Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith and all these fucking shows on cable TV to learn the game. Its bad for your health.
Eli Manning is NOT the reason the team has stunk. He has been a contributor. Nothing more or nothing less. But with better personnel around him - he can still EASILy win in the NFL.
For christ sakes, Giants fans are the fucking worst.
I love how you think that you can just say he can EASILY win game in the NFL and expect people to just buy that... Just b/c I'm not willing to just buy that bill of goods nor a bunch of other people doesn't make us the worst...I'm having a hard time following that line of thinking.
You are right - of course - I doubt it would net $17 million (is that right?)this year...maybe it would though - I am no cap expert.
It's also a little late to jump in that game - FA is essentially over for the top of the line guys.
Look at the title of this thread. Nothing more needs to be said.
A guy that has started every game (except one) for the Giants, though me being single at 24 and seeing him as a rookie in training camp, to being married, buying my first house, to having a puppy, my first child, my second child, buying my second house, losing an old dog that was a puppy when the guy was playing QB, to now that I'm a 43 year old man. Every Sunday, every fall, through all that I could put on my Eli jersey and root like hell for the Giants, make a Giants fan out of my wife and our two children. Pass down what was passed down to me as a kid in the 80's.
15 years is a looooong time. Yeah, I like the guy, I'm a fan. Tell me why that's bad again?
How old were you when Eli because QB?
I just want to pay someone less money to suck ass so I afford to pay for a nice young player that could help this team rebuild.
I have no clue who the Giants may or may not have been interested in had they had an extra $17 million to spend this offseason. The Giants were going to pay the man that money so they probably didn't even dip their toes in the high end OL, DL, DB market.
You're not all junior GM's, sportswriters, or analysts.
Again, our fan base is terrible.
I'm 40 - so I too went through almost every single life altering moment that you went through while rocking my #10 Eli jersey.
But it's not 2012 anymore - it's not even 2016. It's hard to explain to my 11 year old son why Eli just falls down when the DL from the Cowboys gets near him. Or why the Giants have not beaten the Eagles, in what feels like to him, his whole life. Or why I watch the games in November when as he says, "they don't matter anymore....again."
Maybe it makes me a cold-hearted SOB but I just want to win and Eli isn't going to just turn on his magic and be good again. I've fallen for the story line one to many times and I'm ready for change.
You're not all junior GM's, sportswriters, or analysts.
We're trying to understand why the front office does what it does. If you're going to just tell us about what a fan of Eli you are then you might as well add a 'Z' to your handle so it's easier to know you're someone whose posts aren't worth reading.
We're all fans of Eli's. If criticism of him bothers you then you're probably too sensitive.
Again, our fan base is terrible.
I love how my saying that he's terrible is bias - yet your saying that he can EASILY win games in the NFL is not.
So maybe I also have an understanding of what they are thinking.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
He has been the reason for their downfall the last two years. I mean its sad that people on this site have propped up guys like Blake Bortles, Macus Mariotta, Alex Smith, Mitch Trubisky, have made Goff an already HOF, Nick Foles, etcc.... as winners and Eli as a loser.
Just f'n weird.
So maybe I also have an understanding of what they are thinking.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
You've been pretty accurate in what they've been thinking, and what they've been thinking has usually led to more losing.
I can have an emotional fan attachment to a players, and still look at that player's status on the team realistically. Which I've clearly done.
The Giants can rebuild while trying to field a competitive roster.
The Giants can find a new QB while the current one is still playing.
I think the Giants are making QB decisions with a high degree of subjectivity and it's clouding their judgment.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
Well, I think jtgiants' recent post about being frustrated about the league/media/fanbase's perceptions of Eli indicates that yes, there is a contingent at Jints Central that emotional about him similar to posters here at BBI.
It wasn't "Eli can serve as the best option as he finishes his contract," it was "Eli is going to prove the haters wrong next year!" which sounds inspiring but also seems off for a professional team to operate.
He has been the reason for their downfall the last two years. I mean its sad that people on this site have propped up guys like Blake Bortles, Macus Mariotta, Alex Smith, Mitch Trubisky, have made Goff an already HOF, Nick Foles, etcc.... as winners and Eli as a loser.
Just f'n weird.
Eli didn't forget how to play QB.
Derek Jeter didn't forget how to play SS.
Messier didn't forget how to be a centerman.
Ewing didn't forget how to play C.
They lost to the undefeated Father Time - and there's no shame in that game.
It ain't personal.
I think the Giants are making QB decisions with a high degree of subjectivity and it's clouding their judgment.
I'll give Jints Central this...if they don't love a QB this year, no one will sell more tickets that's available than Eli Manning. And as much as I would like to believe that it's the FO's job to win games above all else...it's not. It's to sell tickets.
HAHAHAA - first time I every typed that, where did that phrase come from and who started it?
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If I came on here and never saw "Jints Central" again.
HAHAHAA - first time I every typed that, where did that phrase come from and who started it?
Our resident Redskins fan, bw in DC can't go a day on here without mentioning it at least once. It is used as as a slight when referring to the Giants brass.
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Ive no issue with that. I had Stidham late in my mental mock.
And Ive said here many times, that I would actually pick a QB in the mid to late rounds every single draft. Thats regardless of the age or tenure of my starter. Thats my lottery ticket and one day it would pay off. Nassib. Webb, Lauletta...Im okay with them all. Just so long as you cut bait as soon as you know their ceiling.
Speaking my language now. I would draft a QB every year, too - somewhere. It's a very wise strategy because it will pay a dividend sooner or later. And you can never have enough quality at that position.
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and I'm starting to be annoyed with myself for getting roped into them time after time.
None of us can help it. I have talked myself into not posting about Eli numerous times. I read these threads like conversations with my childhood friends in a bar and then someone says something that hits a nerve and "They pull me back in" Is what it is Britt.
Pretty accurate description of how I feel about it, as well.
A guy that has started every game (except one) for the Giants, though me being single at 24 and seeing him as a rookie in training camp, to being married, buying my first house, to having a puppy, my first child, my second child, buying my second house, losing an old dog that was a puppy when the guy was playing QB, to now that I'm a 43 year old man. Every Sunday, every fall, through all that I could put on my Eli jersey and root like hell for the Giants, make a Giants fan out of my wife and our two children. Pass down what was passed down to me as a kid in the 80's.
15 years is a looooong time. Yeah, I like the guy, I'm a fan. Tell me why that's bad again?
How old were you when Eli because QB?
How the hell did you age 19 years over the course of Eli's 15 year career? Or do you age even faster than some fans think Eli does?
No, thats John Claytons wife
Made my day in less than 15 words. Thanks.
There is no definitive answer to a lot this discussion - it's what makes it fun to debate.
Bell believes Roethlisbergers role with the organization allowed him to play favorites to the detriment of the team, which has seen the departure of two of the best offensive players in the league this offseason, with Bell signing with the Jets and Brown, the star wide receiver, traded to Oakland after a falling out with Roethlisberger.
So if Im mad at a player and Im not throwing him the ball if Im not throwing [Brown] the ball and Im giving JuJu [Smith-Schuster] all the shine or Jesse [James] or Vance [McDonald] or whoever it is and you know consciously youre making your other receiver mad but you dont care, its hard to win that way, Bell said.
Obviously the situation with Giants & Eli is different but I think the concept is the same. I dont think he is playing favorites to the WRs but I think the organization is allowing him to power and not enough accountability
JTGIANTS even alleges the Giants have a handshake agreement with Eli to start and therefore wont draft a QB at 6
You may be too young to know about it...
But wayyyy back when (like the 70s), before you could follow your favorite team on the internet, many newspapers derogatorily referred to the Giant's Front Office as Jints Central... This was at a time when the organization didn't even qualify as a joke...
anybody who can't see that Eli is a huge part of the problem is also a part of the problem....
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versus what the Giants agreed to pay him in the past. They are not operating under the same conditions. If they choose to keep him, and they do, then they are bound by the contract.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
I totally agree - you are right it's hard to compare since he is currently under contract.
My point is simply keeping Eli at the price they are keeping him at is a big part of the problem.
Not only do I believe that Eli is done - but paying him $23 million dollars (which is way above market value) is compounding the problem since it prohibits them from making other moves to improve the team around him in the rebuilding process.
this team is going to be running in mud until they part ways with Eli, he is just sucking money away from this franchise and I can't believe that Giants management doesn't see this.....