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Eli Manning IS the Problem.

twostepgiants : 3/19/2019 9:27 am
Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.

In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.

It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.

It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.

One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.

The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.

A few examples stand out -

The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.

Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.

This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.

Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads

Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.

The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.

Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why

Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.

Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.

There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.

Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.

What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.

It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.

It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.

Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.

I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.

Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,

We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.

The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.

Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.

The cloud remains.

Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.

And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture

Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
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This should be an excellent thread,  
Mad Mike : 3/19/2019 9:28 am : link
and will surely blaze new ground never before covered on bbi.
Your handie should've been  
Canton : 3/19/2019 9:29 am : link
twostepsback...















from the keyboard
I agree....  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:30 am : link
his problem of getting to the QB, covering WRs, and running the ball has been holding us back for years.
tl;dr  
Chris in Philly : 3/19/2019 9:30 am : link
.
If it's a problem  
jeff57 : 3/19/2019 9:31 am : link
It's one we'll have to endure for one more year
Tldr...  
JCin332 : 3/19/2019 9:32 am : link
but my guess from the title is your football knowledge is very limited...
I can't imagine someone being so passionate  
RodneyHamp : 3/19/2019 9:32 am : link
about ANYTHING to write that much about it, let alone on Eli Manning.
I honestly cannot wait until this is all over  
Jints in Carolina : 3/19/2019 9:32 am : link
.
Cool story bro!  
BillT : 3/19/2019 9:33 am : link
.
With a good OLine in front of him, Barkley,  
Tom [Giants fan] : 3/19/2019 9:34 am : link
competent WR's and TE, Eli will have his best year. He is NOT the problem. Now, will he have a ton of yards? Probably not since they will probably run the ball more with Barkley and Gallman. But his completion percentage will be higher and I believe his TD to INT ratio will be very solid. The people around Eli has been the problem and I think they are finally fixing that. One more year for Eli and the playoffs are a possibility if they can do something with the defense.
RE: tl;dr  
Eman11 : 3/19/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14346896 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
.


thread is way to long and way to dramatic  
hitdog42 : 3/19/2019 9:35 am : link
the 1 thing i agree with is that the locker room has definitely been fractured by the level of pay vs. the level of his play.
anyone who works in any competitive field understands that sentiment and its not ideal.

the personal attacks on him are a bit much.
it's a flawed argument that misses 1 key fact - the old GM was the rot  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2019 9:35 am : link
he was the one doing the drafting from 2012 on (and prior). He's the one who had to cut most of his own picks even prior to Gettleman arriving. He was 1 of the few people with a voice in first hiring as OC and then promoting Mcadoo. He as also the one who presided over the a team boasting what I expect are likely some of the lowest sack numbers and rushing numbers in the NFL over that same period of time you posted. Was that all on Eli Manning also?

Through at least 2016 Eli Manning was playing the same as he ever was. He led them on numerous 4Q wins and played as good of a first half as he ever has in GB.

Was he the reason for the mutiny in '17 and lackluster season last year? Maybe. His play was certainly a contributing factor. But the rot started well before that - as evidenced by the defense literally going over a cliff each of those 2 seasons, and in total 3 of the last 4.
He also blew all those leads  
Jeff : 3/19/2019 9:36 am : link
in the last two minutes of games last year. (4 blown leads in the last two minutes I believe was the number I heard)
things should become clear this year  
ron mexico : 3/19/2019 9:37 am : link
we will see if OBJ can help a team get wins and become competitive and not blow the whole thing up with his antics

With the line fixed, we will see if Eli really can still play at a high level
.  
arcarsenal : 3/19/2019 9:38 am : link
OP is borderline obsessed with Kyler Murray - so, everything he posts is basically done with that in mind.

I got through about 3 paragraphs of this and quit.
In all honesty  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:38 am : link
the stock of Kleenex has soared recently.

I thank BBI for my profits. Poor Odell is gone..... boo freakity hoo.
no more excuses  
ron mexico : 3/19/2019 9:38 am : link
for either of them
Some people have way too much time on their hands...  
Ryan in Albany : 3/19/2019 9:38 am : link
.
If Eli loses  
CromartiesKid21 : 3/19/2019 9:41 am : link
9 more games this year he will have more losses than any QB in NFL History
RE: With a good OLine in front of him, Barkley,  
chuckydee9 : 3/19/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14346909 Tom [Giants fan] said:
Quote:
competent WR's and TE, Eli will have his best year. He is NOT the problem. Now, will he have a ton of yards? Probably not since they will probably run the ball more with Barkley and Gallman. But his completion percentage will be higher and I believe his TD to INT ratio will be very solid. The people around Eli has been the problem and I think they are finally fixing that. One more year for Eli and the playoffs are a possibility if they can do something with the defense.

Thats the thing.. with the amount of resources it takes for him to look decent how can you field a good defense? We have tons of resources we had to use to get him this OL.. even then we still need to spend even more to get a C and a RT.. Eli will also have the best RB in the league behind him to keep the LB honest.. He has a first round TE, another TE where we spent a good chunk of money. We have a 2nd Rd WR and then another one who is costing us about 10-12M this year.. if everything around him needs to be perfect for him to play decent then why pay him the $23M..

No matter how you put it.. There is Eli then there is everyone else for this franchise.. whether it be Cruz, Nicks, JPP, OBJ, Tuck, TC, JR, KG..
no way I am reading all of that  
EricJ : 3/19/2019 9:41 am : link
.
RE: If Eli loses  
arcarsenal : 3/19/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14346928 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
9 more games this year he will have more losses than any QB in NFL History


He'll also have two more Super Bowls than most QB's in NFL history and 1 more than nearly all of them with very few exceptions.

He's in a position to reach that unfortunate "milestone" by way of his durability and longevity.

I really hope we find our next QB sooner than later, but I'm getting tired of the way people are fucking trashing our own guy left and right and trying to now turn his career into nothing more than the track record of some mediocre loser.
Sit down Shut Mouth and  
NYGNYY : 3/19/2019 9:43 am : link
Watch a HOF QB for 2 more years Hillary.
Comical
When..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/19/2019 9:44 am : link
people say our fan base has no Eli haters, this will be example #1.

Of probably 10,694, just from this fucking schmuck.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/19/2019 9:45 am : link
Someone actually claimed yesterday that Eli "Dilfered" both Super Bowls - i.e.. was just a passenger who did virtually nothing to win either game.

The levels of horseshit at this point are just way, way beyond....

We all know we need to find the next guy.

The only thing Eli Manning is guilty of is wanting to play football.
RE: When..  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14346941 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
people say our fan base has no Eli haters, this will be example #1.

Of probably 10,694, just from this fucking schmuck.


I think Les in TO is the President. He made a comment in DGs presser that Eli dilfered us to 2 SBs. I cant believe he hasnt been banned yet either.
arc..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/19/2019 9:46 am : link
there was a former poster who used to compare Eli to Mark Sanchez in his playoff runs. Basically that Sanchez did more to get the Jets through to the Championship games than eli did.

He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......
Twosteps  
jtgiants : 3/19/2019 9:47 am : link
You really don't know much about football do you? This post explains alot
.  
Bill2 : 3/19/2019 9:47 am : link
Magical thinking

The OP Was a Little Long...  
Jim in Tampa : 3/19/2019 9:47 am : link
And a little over the top.

However, I think the OP's take is a lot closer to the truth than that of many Eli enthusiasts who think Eli is just a solid OL away from playing like an above average QB.

The Giants should have moved on from Eli.
Haha, this will go over well.  
Jim in Hoboken : 3/19/2019 9:48 am : link
Listen, I don’t mind Eli being here for one more year, he’s earnes that. However, just don’t insult us by telling us that the organization is expecting playoffs this year.

You know what’s going to happen? You will see lots of 5-yard checkdowns on Third and eight, after opposing defenses stack the box to limit the run on the first two downs, and Tate and Barkley will each have 100 catches for 500 yards by game 8. The reaction will be, Eli needs a vertical threat, not his fault nobody can get separation!!! Oops. And the defense needs to play 40 min a game and still not allow any points in the 4th quarter!!

I am not reacting to Gettleman’s press conference speak until the draft. If we don’t bring in any viable alternatives, then we will likely never know if Eli was ever a problem here during these last few years. I think the organization wants it that way, and most fans probably feel the same.
RE: arc..  
crick n NC : 3/19/2019 9:48 am : link
In comment 14346949 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there was a former poster who used to compare Eli to Mark Sanchez in his playoff runs. Basically that Sanchez did more to get the Jets through to the Championship games than eli did.

He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......


And Favre's heroic 2009 nfc Championship game loss.
RE: Haha, this will go over well.  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:49 am : link
In comment 14346956 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
Listen, I don’t mind Eli being here for one more year, he’s earnes that. However, just don’t insult us by telling us that the organization is expecting playoffs this year.

You know what’s going to happen? You will see lots of 5-yard checkdowns on Third and eight, after opposing defenses stack the box to limit the run on the first two downs, and Tate and Barkley will each have 100 catches for 500 yards by game 8. The reaction will be, Eli needs a vertical threat, not his fault nobody can get separation!!! Oops. And the defense needs to play 40 min a game and still not allow any points in the 4th quarter!!



Its always been Eli's fault for you. FFS. You could be twosteps brother and I wouldnt be shocked.
RE: arc..  
arcarsenal : 3/19/2019 9:50 am : link
In comment 14346949 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there was a former poster who used to compare Eli to Mark Sanchez in his playoff runs. Basically that Sanchez did more to get the Jets through to the Championship games than eli did.

He also used to go on and on about Asante Samuel dropping an easy INT too......


Oh yes... I remember that well.

A lot of Giants fans never deserved Eli.
I thinking twosteps...  
bw in dc : 3/19/2019 9:51 am : link
has the overarching theme correct - the Giants, specifically Mara, want a fairytale ending for Eli. And come hell or high water, they are determined to give Eli every chance to get there.

Mara is dying to stand on that super bowl stage one more time and, ala Pat Bowlen, shout, “This one’s for Eli!”
If I didn’t care about wasting ink and paper I would print this post  
eric2425ny : 3/19/2019 9:53 am : link
out and wipe my ass with it. Ridiculous.
OP: Don't let the apologists' criticisms deter you  
WillieYoung : 3/19/2019 9:54 am : link
This is a good post and covers ground not discussed previously. I am sure several of the apologists didn't bother to read your post after discerning it was unfavorable to Eli.
Eli haters  
Britt in VA : 3/19/2019 9:54 am : link
Bravo  
Jim in NH : 3/19/2019 9:54 am : link
Very well said, wish I had written it myself.

The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.

This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".
I’m comfortable being the villain around here  
twostepgiants : 3/19/2019 9:55 am : link
I was when I argued just as strongly to draft Eli and most were against it
I was when I argued for Eli all those years and he was criticized after every single throw
I was when I argued for dismissing TC
I was when I argued against hiring McAdoo
I was when I argued to trade Odell last offseason

Always a good sign when people can only personally attack you but not your argument.
If I didn't know better  
RinR : 3/19/2019 9:57 am : link
I would think is a piece from The Onion.

Two important things the OP left out....  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:58 am : link
1. Since 2012 - the Giants have ranked on average 24th in the NFL in rushing.
2. Since 2012, the Giants have ranked 20th in defense in PPG, with 2016 them coming in 2 to alter the stats.

All Eli's fault though.
.  
pjcas18 : 3/19/2019 9:58 am : link
Quote:

Paul Hembekides
‏Verified account @PaulHembo

Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
12:04 PM - 18 Mar 2019
The main issue with Odell's interview  
GiantGrit : 3/19/2019 9:58 am : link
Was not the fact he wavered in his confidence in Eli, it was the fact he even did the interview in the first place. It showed everyone he just didn't get it. Odell grew frustrated and decided to vent on ESPN.

Answering questions about your future with the team with statements like "i don't know" meant Odell is either

- dumb
-calculated

He is not dumb, so i'll go with calculated. He knew exactly what he was doing.

You're overthinking this. The problems here stem from bad drafting and bad luck. Pugh, Richburg & Flowers were all misses. Geoff Schwartz was banged up all the time. Obviously Pugh was too. Eli Apple was a miss. Collins is a good player, but flawed and also injury prone.

Reese failed miserably in finding depth later on in the draft and with UDFA's. Bad luck happens - Olivier Vernon was 25-26 when he signed here with no injury history. How'd that turn out for us? (ties in to Terps point of not putting your eggs in the big contract basket)

Reese and Benny Mac never had the same vision to a point where Reese was signing guys and they weren't touching the field (Ellison) That is fucking embarrassing.

Stop trying to pin blame on one guy. Its stupid. Francesa may be a moron most of the time but he wasn't wrong yesterday when he said this franchise's failures to fix the offensive line have plagued them.

When you're routinely bad for 7/8 years a lot of things went wrong.

RE: Bravo  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14346975 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Very well said, wish I had written it myself.

The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.

This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".


FFS, whats up with people named Jim!!!
RE: OP: Don't let the apologists' criticisms deter you  
dep026 : 3/19/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14346970 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
This is a good post and covers ground not discussed previously. I am sure several of the apologists didn't bother to read your post after discerning it was unfavorable to Eli.


You're a Browns fans.... so your opinion is literally worthless.
RE: Twosteps  
KingBlue : 3/19/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14346950 jtgiants said:
Quote:
You really don't know much about football do you? This post explains alot


This.
RE: .  
pjcas18 : 3/19/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14346985 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:



Paul Hembekides
‏Verified account @PaulHembo

Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
12:04 PM - 18 Mar 2019



that was all you needed to say from your post.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/19/2019 9:59 am : link
you are confusing being a "villain" with being a moron.

You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.

A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.

so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
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