Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture
Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
CromartiesKid21 : 9:41 am : link : reply
9 more games this year he will have more losses than any QB in NFL History
Drew Brees needs 12 to have the most losses of all time, and he looks less primed for retirement than Eli. So if Brees ends up with the most losses ever, does he suck too?
It's batshit to me that people would even expect that.
You're surprised that a 2-time Super Bowl MVP, and Giants legend is being handled differently than other guys?
The GM literally told everyone yesterday that he plans on addressing the QB position sooner than later.
The piling on Eli by supposed fans of this team is getting exhausting. And I'm the last guy here who should be considered an "apologist"
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
+1 A lengthy post containing mostly innuendo and supposition about what the OP thinks happened, some people are just obsessed...
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
No thanks. It was garbage the first time.
anyone who works in any competitive field understands that sentiment and its not ideal.
the personal attacks on him are a bit much.
Thanks Hitdog. I respect you as a poster.
The one thing I disagree on is that I do not think I personally attacked him. I have criticized him and his play but not personally attacked him.
I attacked the Giants management for how they have handled Eli and created this environment around him and how it has poisoned the team culture.
I really don’t blame Eli for taking advantage of it. It’s in his personal self interest.
Mara is dying to stand on that super bowl stage one more time and, ala Pat Bowlen, shout, “This one’s for Eli!”
I'm not sure why you would not want him to stand on that stage, but whatever. You seems to have your own priorities and you are certainly entitled to them.
I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you.
Notice that years into his career they went WCO...a highly unlikely fit for their most important player. If they wanted WCO...they should have drafted his replacement. I am not sure they really wanted WCO...they may have wanted to mask a very bad OL situation
Another problem is that with a good OL two years ago, Eli's limitations could have been starkly judged and the latitude to patiently bring in someone new would have been there.
This part of the problem started when they drafted Flowers and thought he was going to be fine. The problem started when they graded Pugh and Richburg as not executing the play call over 20% of the time. The problem started when they thought Jones was a starting center and Hart a RT.
I and they and you have no idea what Eli is right now.
The real problem is that Eli's replacement should have been on the team two years before this year.
To have a future you have to have options.
They fucked up far before DG
I have no idea if they are still fucking up. I do know that you don't drop your only Qb until you actually have the next one in hand
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
Notice that years into his career they went WCO...a highly unlikely fit for their most important player. If they wanted WCO...they should have drafted his replacement. I am not sure they really wanted WCO...they may have wanted to mask a very bad OL situation
Another problem is that with a good OL two years ago, Eli's limitations could have been starkly judged and the latitude to patiently bring in someone new would have been there.
This part of the problem started when they drafted Flowers and thought he was going to be fine. The problem started when they graded Pugh and Richburg as not executing the play call over 20% of the time. The problem started when they thought Jones was a starting center and Hart a RT.
I and they and you have no idea what Eli is right now.
The real problem is that Eli's replacement should have been on the team two years before this year.
To have a future you have to have options.
They fucked up far before DG
I have no idea if they are still fucking up. I do know that you don't drop your only Qb until you actually have the next one in hand
Excellent post.
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you are confusing being a "villain" with being a moron.
You just wrote two pages about Eli being the reason the team has been bad.
A person with any semblance of intelligence should know there is never just one problem on a team.
so much time used to write a post that misses this very basic point.
That is not what my post is about. You may want to try reading it
If that's what you truly believe, then I think you either need a better dictionary or increase your chlorpromazine dose.
Tom -- I think you are hitting a salient, but potentially unintended nail on the head.
If this is a run-first, conservative offense, that is in the process of upgrades at receivers and needs more work on the offensive line. And the defense needs considerable help.
Might it be worth considering a one-year very expensive game managing type QB isn't the best investment?
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
The one thing I disagree on is that I do not think I personally attacked him. I have criticized him and his play but not personally attacked him.
"He is the rot."
My God you are an idiot.
watch - ( New Window )
Rather be an "Eli apologist" whatever the fuck that means than a shitty fan like yourself.
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Eli needs an OL. Put him with top half OL and he'll be good. Put him with a poor OL and he'll struggle to overcome it. Give him a dire OL and he'll be pretty poor.
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
How much of this do you attribute to his complete lack of mobility
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In comment 14347025 English Alaister said:
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Eli needs an OL. Put him with top half OL and he'll be good. Put him with a poor OL and he'll struggle to overcome it. Give him a dire OL and he'll be pretty poor.
The crazy thing is that Reese never worked this out. That Eli passed for 4200 yards and a 90+QBR is frankly astonishing given what passed for blocking in 2018.
He was also sacked a career high 47 times, 31 of which came in the first 8 games (which tied his previous career high). Basically a full season of sacks in only 8 games.
How much of this do you attribute to his complete lack of mobility
Has he ever been mobile? No. So no, I don't attribute it to his mobility.
He hasn't had a pocket in nearly a decade and he was never one to take off and run.
I contend if Brady played for the Giants behind this line for the last 8-9 years, many would call him the problem as well and people would think he was done because he wouldn't have Scarnecchia/Belichick/McDaniels giving him a pocket and a scheme at which to excel.
I am not saying this is the case but it is a possible explanation. I hope it isn't the case. We are all about to find out. There can be no offensive line excuses if they stay reasonably healthy this year. We have a great running back and decent but not great receivers. If the offense doesn't perform this year it's going to be pretty clear what has been going on. If Eli performs well it will also say a lot as well. The truth is I don't know what the answer is I have my guesses but I don't have anything definitive. I'm ready to watch this play out and I hope Eli Manning and the New York Giants do very well this year.
Since he cannot run to threaten or avoid (same as Brady) he is a unit QB together with the o-line.
Prior management may have allocated enough draft choices to the o-line, but they did not, for whatever reason, put together even an adequate, let alone strong unit.
And the unit this management trotted out at the beginning of last year was truly pathetic.
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this:
Link - ( New Window )
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this: Link - ( New Window )
Some narratives are etched in stone
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And like last year, Eli’s apologists will point to his good games and say he’s still got it, and point the finger anywhere else but at Eli when he sucks (my guess is this year they blame the loss of OBJ)
Rather be an "Eli apologist" whatever the fuck that means than a shitty fan like yourself.
You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
Like all of your posts, this makes little to no sense. And who the fuck calls themselves "chucky" thats over 5 years old.
Yup. The Giants failed Eli. Eli did not fail the Giants and he's never once bitched about it publicly (to my knowledge). I'll always love him for that.
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You are just as shitty to other giants players who won SB so don't bring it out that its better to be an apologist..
Like all of your posts, this makes little to no sense. And who the fuck calls themselves "chucky" thats over 5 years old.
Name calling thats your thing.. real mature..
Name calling thats your thing.. real mature..
Yes, I called you by your name. The literal definition of "name calling."
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as the rest of this thread.
Here are 30 minutes of Eli Manning throws and plays from THIS season.
I do not see a complete lack of mobility. Nor do I see a guy who can't make throws if not protected.
Maybe some of you should revisit this: Link - ( New Window )
Some narratives are etched in stone
No, they won't bother.
Because if they did, they'd realize half the sh-t they say is dead wrong.
The guy doesn't need a perfect pocket. And the majority of plays in the clip above the pocket is dirty. He rolls out, he moves around in the pocket, he climbs the ladder, and delivers the ball.
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
I think that you might be yogi berra. I neither hate Eli nor pity him.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
I HATE ELI MANNING.
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
Anyone think this poster should change his name worstgiantfan200?
Eli didnt bench himself. He set up a situation where Geno Smith can fully function and play to the best of his ability for an entire game. Get a clue.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
We are all about to find out. There can be no offensive line excuses if they stay reasonably healthy this year.
No Grateful, the new excuse will be that Eli has no receivers. Watch it evolve. Another really good post from you - thanks.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
I would just add two points to your post.
First, I would add the qualifier that we don't know what either player was like in the locker room. That's relevant in the whole "culture context".
The second point goes to reliability. I don't think that this is trivial. If you tally up games played vs games missed, either in absolute numbers or percentages, how do these tow players compare?
ELI IS THE ROT!!
The whole problem is from poor team building. Getts is taking a lot of heat but he knows he had a major rebuild on his hands.
You can’t build a solid structure on a weak foundation. I’m not saying Reese didn’t try but his picks on O line were failures.
This is why I’m convinced he won’t be taking a QB high. The defense in general and offensive line quality and depth of that quality is at least two rounds deep this year. Getts will take his lumps but this draft will go a long way in fixing the foundation imo
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McAdoo DID NOT BENCH Eli !! Eli BENCHED HIMSELF..
McAdoo graciously. told Eli his plans and Eli decided to not go along with his head coach's .. Eli defied his head coach and took himself out of a game -- if any other player on Giants had done that .. The player would have been RIGHTLY crucified on BBI threads and probably shown the door by the Giants
I also thought McAdoo's big mistake was TELLING Eli his plans . McAdoo should have just waited for Eli to have yet ANOTHER listless half and pulled him.
Eli definitely is the rot in this organization .. Here is a thought experiment .The Giants are assuming this is Eli's last year but. let's say Giants trade for Rosen this year .. and Giants end up with losing season but Eli personally has a very good season . What happens then? Rosen is QB of future and Giants can't let him sit another year ..
Do you think Eli retires ?? Or he goes free agent to another team ?
I would place my money that Eli would definitely go to another team just like his brother -.
.. the loyalty in Eli Manning is misplaced and has been for years .. HE IS THE ROT.
Anyone think this poster should change his name worstgiantfan200?
Eli didnt bench himself. He set up a situation where Geno Smith can fully function and play to the best of his ability for an entire game. Get a clue.
Also, and this is the essential element of the controversy, McAdoo had no intention of waiting for Eli to perform "listlessly" before lifting him. And that is regardless of whether he told him of the plan beforehand or not. Missing that, is completely misunderstanding or, more likely, misconstruing, the situation.
Considering that all of the Rosenaphilic Eli-haters cite Rosen's poor OL for his sucky performance this past season, they stand on jello of irony.
You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
^^This^^