Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture
Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
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You really think comparing an edge rusher/OLB to a QB is an apples to apples comparison?
You'd have approached each position the same exact way?
Some of these posts are just really poorly thought out.
The QB position is more complex than DE/OLB and I agree that on the margins continuity at QB is more important for that reason. But this doesn't explain the stark difference in how Vernon and Eli were managed this offseason. The fact that you consider this "poorly thought out", because the QB exists on some sort of different island than the other athletes on the team, I think reflects the thinking around Giants central. I think it's gone way beyond the range of reasonable objectivity.
It's just the facts. QB is exponentially more difficult to replace than Vernon. They are entirely different entities. You can either acknowledge that and understand that it's why they don't have equal value in either the trade market or the contract market - or you can disingenuously pretend otherwise and continue the crusade against Eli Manning out of frustration and just continue to take a piss on all logic and rationality.
The idea that the only objective people here are the ones mercilessly trashing Eli is funny.
That has value.
So let's talk the physical aspect. Simply, can he make the throws or can he not? It's pretty clear to me that he can still make them.
He is not an immobile statue as some insinuate. In fact, he's run more called rollouts than in his entire career. He's also converted QB sneaks. He moves around in the pocket to buy time.
Do we need to plan for his replacement, yes. But he can still play.
If you are open to listening to reason, watch that 30 minute clip of 2018 Manning plays and tell me what exactly he's incapable of doing, because everything I described is right there in living color in it.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
And why do you think that is?
Anyway, we will be arguing about this for a long time. Cheers.
The week before Eli was benched we played the Redskins and offense was terrible -- we punted every possession except 1 field goal and 1 INT at end of game -- The offense had only made one first down in the second half of the game
Since then, literally everyone responsible has suffered some sort of consequence except for Eli.
That was an addendum to my post above yours. It was in general, not to you.
That's true for high performing QBs, not a replacement level QB like Eli. In fact, teams cycle through replacement level QBs constantly.
Right, and where does it get them?
We can cycle through 5 QB's and not find the right one. Or we can be more deliberate and try to not have another Simms -> Eli gap like we did in the mid/late 90's before things settled with Collins for a few years.
People are so desperate to just get rid of Eli, but all of you guys are going to change your tune the second the next guy sucks and we realize that it's not so easy to just throw someone else out there and have it work out better for us.
I want the next guy to be on the team sooner than later. But I want to make sure it's the guy they believe in. Not a guy they are forcing into the fold because all of the fans and talking heads are screaming like lunatics about the QB position.
But it rarely is because you literally have some posters saying there are "Eli apologists" that assign no blame to him. It is a false statement.
Meanwhile, one of the guys that calls people "Eli apologists" just penned a manifesto with the title "Eli Manning IS the Problem".
Every person in the Giants organization bears some responsibility for the down years. Every person.
If there are posters who say Eli bears no responsibility, they are as fucking moronic as twostepgiants is. I haven't seen those posters and before somebody screams that Britt and dep are, ask yourselves if any BBI'er has started a thread with a title:
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
Eli is being kept because of things that happened in 2011 and prior - and that is the opposite of logic and rationality.
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Dep and Britt usually include a perfunctory sentence along those lines, and then proceed to make an argument that indicates that they don't actually believe the pro forma admission that Eli is at least partly responsible for the team's struggles.
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What kind of person wakes up day after day, thinking gee how can I bash Eli on BBI today?
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
If the thread didn't exist in the first place, would there be a need?
Chicken or the egg?
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
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Also, and this is the essential element of the controversy, McAdoo had no intention of waiting for Eli to perform "listlessly" before lifting him.
The week before Eli was benched we played the Redskins and offense was terrible -- we punted every possession except 1 field goal and 1 INT at end of game -- The offense had only made one first down in the second half of the game
It's a nice observation but it has no relevance to either my post or the "Plan" as you presented it, albeit in a distorted fashion.
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I haven't seen those posters and before somebody screams that Britt and dep are, ask yourselves if any BBI'er has started a thread with a title:
"Eli Manning is NOT part of the problem".
Dep and Britt usually include a perfunctory sentence along those lines, and then proceed to make an argument that indicates that they don't actually believe the pro forma admission that Eli is at least partly responsible for the team's struggles.
Sometimes its hard to think outside the box. Maybe one day you will. But if you do/dont - you will still be one miserable person and thats what is most important.
You have very selective reading. Its probably why you dont understand a lot of things to well.
The comparison with how Vernon has been handled makes this stark.
Vernon = an overpaid DE was summarily traded.
Eli = an overpaid QB is not even being asked to take a pay cut. The GM stated this week that not retaining him wasn't even considered.
In both cases, we have no replacement for either player on the team. That didn't prevent DG from trading Vernon. I acknowledge that Vernon brought a talented player back in the trade. There's almost certainly no trade market for Eli at his current salary. Getting Zeitler just indicates that Eli is thought to be much more overpaid than Vernon was.
The hyperbole in the opening post undermines its point. Keeping Eli is a big problem. It's like a f***** albatross around the franchise's neck.
+1.
I also think that at some point, Eli's salary and contributions undermine the team concept as well. You're shipping off, cutting, and not extending younger players but have no problem paying an underperforming Manning $23M a year. That has a negative impact on morale, and probably a bigger one than any of us can imagine.
Everyone wants a meritocracy, until it's time to cut ties with someone that has an emotional attachment.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
Other than Reese, or more appropriately, the products/consequences of Reese's decisions.
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If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
And again..... what have been the Giants strengths in the last 7 years that Eli has been holding us back?
Our run game has averaged 24th in the NFL since 2012, and 20th in defense (with 2016 the only year being in top 15).
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What kind of person wakes up day after day, thinking gee how can I bash Eli on BBI today?
Its turning into a mental disorder of some kind
It's almost as bad as the ones who feel the need to go on every thread and defend him.
By definition, they are responders.
Disclaimer (Please pay attention): If he no longer could lead a team (even with protection), then I AS THE OWNER, would have at least given him his 5 million bonus he received the other day as a heartfrlt and uber appreciative gesture.
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If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
And that's all based on things that happened almost a decade ago.
Eli hasn't been a shitty QB for a decade - he didn't just lose the ability to win games starting in 2012.
The Giants failed him miserably by letting the line deteriorate around him to an embarrassing degree, by bringing in a guy who was forcing an offense that didn't fit the QB's strengths - tried to start changing his footwork and mechanics after he had already been in the league for over a decade, and have saddled him with more terrible defenses than I can even count at this point.
It's just a lazy, shitty argument to make this all Eli's fault. I'm tired of reading this nonsense from people who can't see any grey area.
It's always got to be ALL Eli or ALL one person/thing around here.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
Says a Phil Simms big time supporter
These arent excuses. Its actual facts. Listen we all know he is near the end. But lets not pretend that he was surrounded by all world talent and he was holding the team back. In fact, the only player who probably was worth a damn is the same guy you wanted gone for 4 years.
Eli Manning was NOT the problem of the teams failures. He was a part of it. The main problem for this team suckitude is simple.... Jerry Reese and Marc Ross. Its still gonna take years for whtaver GM to clean up their shittiness.
Eli isn't Andy Dalton. That's why he's not being handled that way.
Ha ha, this one made me laugh out loud. You are spot on, Eli is not Dalton. He is a two time super bowl MVP that has proven time and time again he can win you games of provide with 1.) Protection as he is a pocket passer and 2.) A running game. We solved #2 last year, now let’s finish resolving issue #1.
The utter bullshit spewed about Eli on here is frustrating. Do you really think Gettleman would keep Eli if he wasn’t productive? He is a take no prisoners type of guy, he’s not afraid to trade or cut any player.
Excuses are made for Eli, coaches are hired and fired for Eli, cap space is damned because of Eli, and the Giants have set up a two class system in the clubhouse: Eli and everyone else.
It is infuriating to hear Gettleman say "the narrative that says Eli can't play is a crock" (I've linked the article). And yet, many fans, other players, the media and other front offices can see the steep decline.
And the fans are being set up for another 3-6 win season because the 38-year-old QB's arm is weaker, feet are slower, and that QB almost never extends a play.
Regardless of comparing the GM's ability to evaluate a QB vs a fan's, I would be curious about the 2-class system in the clubhouse (as well as the morale problems mentioned by other posters). If this were the case, I would think that we would all hear about this constantly from Ginats players, especially the plethora of those no longer with the team since DG took over.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
We HAVE TO SAY IF, because the Giants have failed him miserably with the OL..If he had a good OL, we’d all KNOW by now whether he’s lost it or not. So far, we’re waiting, as he goes off into the sunset, to see, if finally, it was diminished skills or mostly the OL. I hope we can finally find out which, before a new QB takes over possibly next season
In January/February of 2012, Eli Manning was in the midst of capping another 4-0 playoff run and topping it off with the SB MVP cherry against NE for a second time. He told people he thought he was an elite QB, and it was hard for anyone to tell him he was wrong after that performance.
By the end of the very next year (2013), Eli had thrown 27 picks, led the entire NFL in turnovers, and was on one of the worst teams in the league.
Did he forget how to play his position in under 2 calendar years, or did the team around him deteriorate around the same time that we were having what were essentially 0-yield drafts with no young guys taking the older players jobs?
I'm under no delusions regarding what Eli is right now, in 2019.
But anyone who says he "IS" the problem, and is unwilling to acknowledge any of the other components here is being willfully obtuse and are fueling their own garbage agenda.
Look at the thread title!
Coughlin wasn't hired for Eli. McAdoo wasn't hired for eli and neither was shurmur. Two of those guys run WCO blends.
McAdoo was likely fired a couple weeks sooner because of how he handled the Eli benching situation, but what are the excuses and coaching moves made to appease Eli??
More made-up nonsense.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
I don't think that there is a single post you've made or argument that you've made that doesn't mention "at his salary". I still don't think that there's been any indication that his salary has held them back from any specific moves. And, if it hasn't, then it's irrelevant. What should be more relevant is can they get better performance by anyone currently available. I honestly don't think so. And not because of any particular affinity for Eli because, frankly, I could just as soon see Lauletta in his place if they wanted to make the strategic move for better position for a better QB. But, since they want to also win as much as they can while still trying to build for the future, Eli seems the best choice to me.
If you listen to the narrative surrounding Eli, one of the most common phrases you hear is "Eli can still play if..." I agree, Eli can still play. If you put him on the 1989 49ers I'm sure he'd do a good job.
But he isn't on the '89 49ers. He's being paid like he's an elite player that can carry the offense, but he isn't elite and he can't carry the offense. If that's the case, the logical thing to do is to replace him with a younger and cheaper alternative. At least in that scenario the money recouped can be reinvested elsewhere into the roster.
There is no purely football reason to keep Eli here at that salary in 2019. It's about nostalgia and sentimentality. Shit I get it...I'm rooting for him to kick ass and finish with a bang. But if I remove my fandom it doesn't make sense at all, and IMO that's how a front office should operate.
This X100
Now, imagine if they gave that defense to HC Coughlin, instead of HC Baggy suit guy.
He truly believes that kind of utter shit.
It is also why he thinks having multiple mobile QB's on rookie contracts that can be used interchangably would be successful too.
There's a certain level of delusion there that is borderline insanity.