Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture
Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
The rot is not Eli his teammates actually speak highly of him. Just as they have about Odell. The problem on this team was evaluating talent. Drafting players that were not deserving of their draft position. Trying to fix an OL where your RG, C and LT were basically useless, injured or both. The rot that occurred started on the OL and DL's. Go back a watch Tom Coughlin's 1st press conference, I could not wait for pre-season that year. You knew we were going to get it right. You build the OL and DL then you get your QB. Right now we are close to doing that. the OL is almost done now we focus on the DL then the QB of the future. The game is won in the trenches. The QB gets paid gets the glory but the trenches win championships.
With respect, I think that's a load of condescending bullshit. You might disagree with their reasoning but people have provided cogent arguments in support of retention. Likewise, there's a ton of arguments by some, including you I would surmise, that are largely fueled by reflexive and visceral despite.
This is where I think twosteps nailed it in his post. If you take Eli's name out of the mix, and replace it with Player X, and describe Eli's circumstances, I think it's very hard to say it's worth the stretch to keep Player X.
On the other hand, if Player X is Brady, and his situation is described in great detail, it's a reasonable position to conclude that he's worth keeping. To a lesser degree, Brees, too.
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In comment 14347383 jogo1 said:
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This refrain is repeated year after year. But the offensive line is a great excuse, and has been since SB46. It's been truly abysmal.
Oh really? And what's the excuse of the running game sucking since SB46? What's the excuse of watching the #2 pick in the draft RB getting hit with 1st contact from the defense an average of literally 6 inches after receiving the handoff? That's not even a HALF of a step before contact. Do you have eyes? Are you going to argue that we actually had a solid OL? Really?
If I wasn't clear, I'm saying it IS a legitimate excuse. We're in agreement.
Ah... yes, I see that now. So Sorry! Carry on then... lol
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Not to this level of detail, but this is a question I always ask in these debates to the Eli Army.
And I'm fairly certain the most common answer is crickets.
And that makes sense because a legitimate case for Eli to lead a team in the SB is almost impossible to make.
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
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But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
- ( New Window )
You can thank McAdoo for that. He changed his footwork.
STAHHHHP. McAdoo didn't tell him that once he takes his dropback to not evade the rush. C'mon dude.
That is horse shit. No one is saying that Eli needs everything to be perfect.
All most Eli supporters have stated is that he could still perform at a productive level if the offensive wasn't complete dog shit for nearly a decade.
There is an enormous difference between not having an impossibly bad offensive line for nearly a decade and needing everything to be perfect.
And that says nothing of how bad the defense has been for the better part of the last decade as well.
It's not really a strawman if you read this site and have heard fan comments over the years.
And again, I'm not saying this myself, I do think the Giants can probably win some games with Eli, I also think they can probably win games though with a lot of QB's though.
Anyway, I have read fans and talking heads say the OL stinks, Eli has no time. So I think we all agree Eli needs a better OL.
Then what can he live without? what doesn't need to be perfect? running game? WR's? coaching?
Giants leading rushers before Barkley since the last SB (in order)
Bradshaw (1015)
Andre Brown (492)
Andre Williams (721)
Rashad Jennings (863)
Rashad Jennings (593)
Orleans Darkwa (751)
I've read multiple fans complaints about that group (and rightly so) as Eli struggled over the years.
receivers? After Beckham, and to a lesser extent Shepard no wide receiver on the Giants did anything acceptable, even Ruben Randle or especially Ruben Randle.
So now in 2018 running game solved, Barkley is the real deal.
quality receivers should not have been an issue with Beckham, Shepard, Engram.
You have a running game, wide receivers, but your OL stinks and now that's the reason for the offensive struggles.
It's the OL or coaching. until Beckham was injured.
I have read all of that on here, no one is creating a straw man. read the threads it's all there.
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
So what can Eli thrive without? Because all those variables are not going to be fixed in one off-season.
The line needed to be fixed regardless. The defense needs a lot of work regardless. We need an edge rusher regardless.
Obviously if Eli gets a 2 year extension, I'll look at it differently.
But I think they really want to have someone else in here this year and get that guy into games as soon as it looks like the season is taking a downturn. That's what I got from Gettleman yesterday - I don't think he was FOS on that part. They know they need a QB. They aren't trying to make this a long-term plan with Eli - or at least that's not my perception.
All his "gunslinger" mistakes historically were when he had one of forced / rushed / lazy footwork. He was never mobile but he had light feet and AWESOME pocket fluidity.
HE HAS LOST HIS FEET - he has lost that pocket fluidity.
Look back at one of my favorite Eli games. He was so eff-ing tough. His protection was breaking down ALL game against a great D. But watch his feet, constantly hopping, bouncing, giving the play that extra 1-2 secs. for example 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58...
No one can honestly say that those are the feet you've seen the last two years. So yes the line was bad, but he needs an all pro line at this stage for his heavy feet.
This was jerry's biggest failing. Poor scouting on the lineman he did draft, ignoring it in FA, not being honest about his picks, and instead giving him all these skill position toys.
So one thing that Gettlemen said, I agree with. All of these moves aren't in a vacuum. I just disagree with his conclusion. This line will never be at the level in the short term where we can be truly competitive with 2019 Eli. SF NFC title game - 3:30, 8:30, 9:40, 9:58... - ( New Window )
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
.
I would argue that the Steelers had all that except maybe coaching.
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
The resources being used to keep him as a placeholder can be much better allocated to improving the team so that it can be better for the future QB.. Either he could've taken a pay cut to be in line with his performance or we could've had another player take his place and pay them placeholder salary..
The line needed to be fixed regardless. The defense needs a lot of work regardless. We need an edge rusher regardless.
Obviously if Eli gets a 2 year extension, I'll look at it differently.
But I think they really want to have someone else in here this year and get that guy into games as soon as it looks like the season is taking a downturn. That's what I got from Gettleman yesterday - I don't think he was FOS on that part. They know they need a QB. They aren't trying to make this a long-term plan with Eli - or at least that's not my perception.
and that's the part that pissed me off. in 2019 he says would be a clown not to address QB. but in 2018 after all his film review, Eli is his guy. Analytics be damned.
The team may be decent and the product will still look like an NFL team with Eli.
However, going with a rookie or Rosen/Lauletta or another acquisition for trade (Driskel-type) will likely lead to a product less appealing on the field.
And I don't think they want to offer their customer a product like that. So they are hedging with Eli.
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Eli is neither "The" problem or "The" solution moving forward. If you think Eli can carry this team to the playoffs like he did in 2011 (yes he did do that), you are wrong. He's not that guy anymore. He could be the guy that's good enough to win it with a good team around like big brother did for the Broncos but .... this team is no where near good enough to do that. Alternatively, none of the rookie QBs last year, this year, or next year can carry this team into the playoffs. Tom Brady, Drew Bress, Russell Wilson, etc couldn't carry this team to the playoffs either.
Bottom line, no player could get this team to the Super Bowl. We can re-evaluate again before the season starts (after the draft, FA, trades, etc). Let the Giants build around the QB REGARDLESS of who is at the position until they get the QB of the future. Don't waste precious picks (high picks) on a damn maybe. Want to give a QB the best possible situation to grow, learn, and succeed? Give him an OL that can protect him. Give him a running game. Give him a defense that can hold a damn lead at the end of a game. A defense that can get the ball back in his hands as quick as possible. Hell, just give the man a fighting chance because the current team can't do that. Throwing a rookie back there now is like tying one of his hands behind his back!
The team may be decent and the product will still look like an NFL team with Eli.
However, going with a rookie or Rosen/Lauletta or another acquisition for trade (Driskel-type) will likely lead to a product less appealing on the field.
And I don't think they want to offer their customer a product like that. So they are hedging with Eli.
No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
What has Kyle Lauletta done to deserve this job? Everyone is all bent out of shape over Eli getting his job "handed to him" based on his namesake, and then in the next breath,, they suggest Lauletta being given the job on zero merit.
Lauletta's claim to fame so far is a run in with the cops.
Driskel is a waste of assets. I don't know why you're so hung up on this guy. No reason to make a trade for him.
We have no idea if Rosen is actually available, what the ask is, or what the Giants would be willing to pay for him.
You're talking about this like Rosen is just sitting there and all you need to do is put a 3rd rd pick in a vending machine and wallah - we have a QB!
It's not about appeal. For better or worse, they want to win games this year and think they can improve the team in the interim.
I'd prefer to swing a deal for Rosen if the option is there - but I have no idea if the option is there. Do you? Does anyone? All we're doing is guessing.
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At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
.
I would argue that the Steelers had all that except maybe coaching.
If the Steelers had that then maybe it helps explain their 12 win per season (roughly) average and not less than 8 wins in a season since 2003.
You know the Giants won't improve all those areas probably in what's left of Eli's career. And that was my point about fans saying Eli needs the other facets to be perfect. If you disagree fine, it is an opinion, what doesn't he need resolved to succeed?
And I've read many fans complain about each of those facets.
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to say that those who believe in Eli are arguing that Eli can succeed if everything else is perfect, or if they had the late-80s SF 49ers roster.
That is horse shit. No one is saying that Eli needs everything to be perfect.
All most Eli supporters have stated is that he could still perform at a productive level if the offensive wasn't complete dog shit for nearly a decade.
There is an enormous difference between not having an impossibly bad offensive line for nearly a decade and needing everything to be perfect.
And that says nothing of how bad the defense has been for the better part of the last decade as well.
It's not really a strawman if you read this site and have heard fan comments over the years.
And again, I'm not saying this myself, I do think the Giants can probably win some games with Eli, I also think they can probably win games though with a lot of QB's though.
Anyway, I have read fans and talking heads say the OL stinks, Eli has no time. So I think we all agree Eli needs a better OL.
Then what can he live without? what doesn't need to be perfect? running game? WR's? coaching?
Giants leading rushers before Barkley since the last SB (in order)
Bradshaw (1015)
Andre Brown (492)
Andre Williams (721)
Rashad Jennings (863)
Rashad Jennings (593)
Orleans Darkwa (751)
I've read multiple fans complaints about that group (and rightly so) as Eli struggled over the years.
receivers? After Beckham, and to a lesser extent Shepard no wide receiver on the Giants did anything acceptable, even Ruben Randle or especially Ruben Randle.
So now in 2018 running game solved, Barkley is the real deal.
quality receivers should not have been an issue with Beckham, Shepard, Engram.
You have a running game, wide receivers, but your OL stinks and now that's the reason for the offensive struggles.
It's the OL or coaching. until Beckham was injured.
I have read all of that on here, no one is creating a straw man. read the threads it's all there.
At some point you need to look around the league and realize no QB really has a quality OL, good running game, good receiving options, good defense and good coaching.
no team has that.
So what can Eli thrive without? Because all those variables are not going to be fixed in one off-season.
It begins and ends with the offensive line. Some teams have very high quality offensive lines, like the Steelers and the Patriots to name a couple.
The run game was dog shit in large part due to the offensive line-- it certainly wasn't personnel where Reese and Ross drafted 9 RBs in the same period they drafted 11 OL. Barkley was amazing as a generational talent, but for large part of the season he was being contacted after moving 6 inches.
But pointing out that the Giants had several bad personnel groups on offense doesn't further the argument that the Eli needs everything to be perfect, but rather that he was saddled by a lot of bad. What did any of those RBs do after leaving the Giants?
What did Ruben Randle do after leaving the Giants?
In every iteration of what the Giants have put out over the last 8-9 years, there have been two constants: Eli Manning and a horrific offensive line play, often in both run blocking and pass protection.
So by stating that in 2018 they had a great RB and WR weapons but still struggled, that it must mean that Eli needs everything to be perfect still misses the point. Because in that version, the offensive line was still awful. It improved in the second half of the season, but was by no means good, let alone excellent (and then they lost Beckham for the last 4 so they didn't have the WR weapons anyway).
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In comment 14347436 christian said:
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
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There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Not to this level of detail, but this is a question I always ask in these debates to the Eli Army.
And I'm fairly certain the most common answer is crickets.
And that makes sense because a legitimate case for Eli to lead a team in the SB is almost impossible to make.
Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
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is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
What does his accumulated salary over a decade an a half have to do with anything at all?
Taylor is garbage.
This is true. And what kind of offense are we running now? A WCO that is predicated on timing and short, accurate passes...neither of which were Eli's strong suit even on his best days.
Eli remains a bad fit for the offense the Giants currently run.
Taylor is garbage.
I'm not a huge Tyrod Taylor fan, but he's a better fit for this offense than Eli is, and more likely to help get the most out of Barkley given his mobility, short yardage accuracy, and propensity not to turn the ball over.
And his cap hit is 1/4 of Eli's. So it's not just Taylor vs. Eli. It's Taylor + 2 or 3 players vs. Eli.
It begins and ends with the offensive line. Some teams have very high quality offensive lines, like the Steelers and the Patriots to name a couple.
Thats not true either.. Patriots don't spend too much on OL.. part of why their OL looks good is their QB's movement and his passing is spot on both in terms o accuracy and touch.. If you don't believe me then look at their 2015 season.. by the second half of their season they had a worse OL than the Giants.. 2 of their starters never even played another game after their loss in AFC conference finals.. Yet.. Brady kept the offense moving.. He didn't have a strong running game either that season and god knows his WR were not great.. QB doesn't need to be mobile to help the OL.. moving within the pocket and dumping the ball off with precision accuracy and touch can solve the problem..
Correct?
So, it's really not a strawman.
When the Giants were starting WR's like Louis Murphy and even when Dwayne Harris started I read about how bad the WR's were. No QB can win with these JAGs.
When the Giants were starting RB's like Andre Williams, I read about how bad the RB's were. No QB can win with these JAGs.
When the OL had Flowers and Omameh and others I read about how bad the OL was. No QB can win with these JAGs.
So, with the addition of at least Zeitler (a top 5 G) and the improved play of Solder and Hernandez, plus likely at least one more OL (RT) the OL should be at worst league average.
The receivers will have Tate, Shepard, Engram (plus whoever else).
RB's should be good with Barkley and Gallman
So, Eli should be able to perform well, right?
And assuming health of the key contributors there should be no), but his [blank] stinks. because if you do see that then the strawman is real (like it has been). This time it's OL and maybe it has been, but that's not always what you'd read on here and other places.
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In comment 14347482 Eric on Li said:
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is the expectation really that half of the league is definitively getting "franchise QB" production for $20m?
Rodgers ($33m) and Ryan ($30m) make significantly more. Extremely mediocre recently available options like Cousins ($28m), Grappolo ($27m), Alex Smith ($23.5m), Flacco ($22m) and Foles ($22m) make more. Brady ($15m) should be in the top 3 but we all know NE games the system.
The lack of understanding of what even semi-competent (NON-franchise QB) costs regardless of how anyone rates Eli specifically is mind boggling. The only alternatives to Eli that save money lead to the tired Saquon vs. Darnold argument or the short sighted delusions of "fitzmagic". It's also why the way forward that makes the most sense is drafting someone in the first round and getting 5 years of relatively cheap control.
Thats a shallow way of looking at it.. Eli is going to demand the 7th highest CAP this season.. He is going to end this year as the highest paid player in the league history.. and its not like its only because he paid in the current era.. Brees and Brady have been active every year of Eli's career. Peyton has played majority of his career in the same salary cap era.. He has been payed plenty and his performance in the past 3 years does not match his 2019 salary..
Cutting Eli saves 17M this season.. that could have gotten us Tyrod Taylor and 2 starting OL..
What do you think the rookie QB needs more? good OL to protect him or a old QB who may or may not even want to mentor the kid?
What does his accumulated salary over a decade an a half have to do with anything at all?
Just goes to prove that Giants have taken care of him and paid him.. This year he is going to count as the 7th highest CAP hit of all the QB.. He should've been asked to take a cut so he can get the center he needs or a RT..
Yes, if the offensive line plays well this year, I expect Eli to have a good season. Let's see if Barkley can go 6 inches without getting hit. Let's see if they can actually maintain a pocket for Eli to step up into instead of having our center and right side of our line bull-rushed right into him.
When was the last season the Giants offensive line was above average as a unit? It has been too long that the offensive line was towards the bottom of the league.
Yes, if the offensive line plays well this year, I expect Eli to have a good season. Let's see if Barkley can go 6 inches without getting hit. Let's see if they can actually maintain a pocket for Eli to step up into instead of having our center and right side of our line bull-rushed right into him.
When was the last season the Giants offensive line was above average as a unit? It has been too long that the offensive line was towards the bottom of the league.
I don't know. OL evaluation is sort of sketchy, most of us (at least I'm not) are not qualified to really evaluate the OL.
Is the OL or is it the RB? Is it the OL or is it the QB?
This year we knew the OL was dogshit, but has it been consistently since 2011? Not sure.
I do know on last year's team the only questionable position groups were OL and QB (at least theoretically).
So if you fix the OL then Eli needs to perform even if say the WR group takes a step back.
I hope he does and Eli goes out on top, but I hope this also points out to you that the straw man you accused me of creating is not a strawman.
People on this site (and other places) 100% absolutely complained about all of the items below:
1. OL
2. RB
3. Coaching/play calling
4. WR
probably in that order.
Eli is neither "The" problem or "The" solution moving forward. If you think Eli can carry this team to the playoffs like he did in 2011 (yes he did do that), you are wrong. He's not that guy anymore. He could be the guy that's good enough to win it with a good team around like big brother did for the Broncos but .... this team is no where near good enough to do that. Alternatively, none of the rookie QBs last year, this year, or next year can carry this team into the playoffs. Tom Brady, Drew Bress, Russell Wilson, etc couldn't carry this team to the playoffs either.
Bottom line, no player could get this team to the Super Bowl. We can re-evaluate again before the season starts (after the draft, FA, trades, etc). Let the Giants build around the QB REGARDLESS of who is at the position until they get the QB of the future. Don't waste precious picks (high picks) on a damn maybe. Want to give a QB the best possible situation to grow, learn, and succeed? Give him an OL that can protect him. Give him a running game. Give him a defense that can hold a damn lead at the end of a game. A defense that can get the ball back in his hands as quick as possible. Hell, just give the man a fighting chance because the current team can't do that. Throwing a rookie back there now is like tying one of his hands behind his back!
This is spot on. Perfectly said. For all those that want Eli gone, do you think a rookie QB can come in and win with this team. How did Darnold do last year with the Jets? did they win? How about Rosen? Allen? anyone? Build the team then get the QB. It will give them a better chance to win if the team around them is better.
Taylor was garbage in the playoff game he played against JAX. Totally useless - they weren't concerned with him throwing the football at all. Between he and Bortles it was one of the worst playoff games I've ever watched as it applies to the QB position.
Taylor was awful before the Browns benched him, too. I don't think they were planning on going to Mayfield quite that soon - but Taylor forced their hand against the Jets because he was so bad.
If we're trying to win some games and have a young guy in the fold to take over if we don't, I'm fine with Eli being the bridge.
I'd still probably rather hitch my wagon to Eli for one year at age 38 with a better line than I would Taylor.
Cost controlled QBs are the new wave of the NFL (if those QBs are not Brees Rodgers or Brady esque)
Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of Taylor's...but with his mobility and ball security I think he'd be a good fit in an offense designed to get the ball out quickly to Barkley, Engram, and Tate. Better fit than Eli, anyway. And that $13.5M would have covered, as an example: Weddle (safety), Ty Nsekhe (right tackle), Deonne Bucannon (SS/ILB), and JJ Nelson (deep threat WR).
You can go on Spotrac's free agent page and play that game all day, and of course you never know who would be willing to sign where. The point is that that additional $13.5M gives you options you wouldn't otherwise have had.
Comical
I'm not sure which is actually more comical - that you went with "2 more years" when Eli has one year remaining on his contract and the Giants have so far shown no eager desire to extend him when doing so would help with the cap; or that you decided to throw a political comment into a thread that had nothing to do with politics by adding "Hillary."
Comical indeed.
We are veering once again into the blame game of the last 7 years which has dominated countless threads in the last 2 years
My intention was to stir a new discussion about how the treatment of Eli by management has poisoned the culture and is irreparable while he is still present on the roster
I dont think the team culture can be fixed while Eli is treated differently then everyone else
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Watch a HOF QB for 2 more years Hillary.
Comical
I'm not sure which is actually more comical - that you went with "2 more years" when Eli has one year remaining on his contract and the Giants have so far shown no eager desire to extend him when doing so would help with the cap; or that you decided to throw a political comment into a thread that had nothing to do with politics by adding "Hillary."
Comical indeed.
1. Cutting Eli for someone they determine to be the QB of the future and ready to play immediately (like Rosen) would have made sense. Not for Tyrod Taylor - who in his entire career has never even had a single season as good as Eli's last year. If Eli's year last year was the problem, a worse player would really really be the problem, no?
2. I'm not convinced the extra money would have gone as far in gaining much of a competitive advantage. Let's say the extra $ meant they increased their offers enough to get Bucannon and Williams - 2 good players they were in on who I think would have been great gets. I don't think those 2 make the team better than the difference between Eli & Tyrod - especially when factoring in they will probably end up adding lower cost alternatives like Remmers to fortify the positions those more expensive FA would have stepped into. So IMO Eli/Remmers/cheap vet LB would still outperform Tyrod/Williams/Bucannon. They were also likely to use some of their draft picks at both of those positions either way, which could have further nullified the difference.
Again, if we added Rosen, terrific, move on from Eli and add as many extra players as you can around him. But with retreads? It's hard for me to think there's any difference in quality as meaningful as downgrading from a consistent 4k yard, 20+ td, durable starter who already knows the offense to a guy who is none of those things, albeit more mobile.
Keeping Eli and using the draft capital they built up to identify someone with 5 years of cheap control happens to be the best move to win now without giving up any future $ flexibility and secure the franchise longer term - IF they get the decision right. That's the part that matters exponentially more than Eli vs. Tyrod.
Place what blame you want where ever you want, but he hasn't been part of the solution either.
One thing the OP stated that I agree with, His tearful interview at his locker after the benching was not appropriate.
Place what blame you want where ever you want, but he hasn't been part of the solution either.
One thing the OP stated that I agree with, His tearful interview at his locker after the benching was not appropriate.
WTF?
WTF, man. You guys suck.