Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture
Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
Seriously...
Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
The object with this team shouldn't be the SB. It should accepting the probability that Eli is no longer a SB winning QB; and start a process to see who Eli's successor is - Lauletta, a rookie QB, a player like Rosen via trade, etc.
If you think about it, this team is setting a decent stage to allow for that audition - an improved OL, a terrific young RB, a play-making TE, and a dependable veteran slot guy in Tate.
Unfortunately this FO just can't see the value in that...
We are veering once again into the blame game of the last 7 years which has dominated countless threads in the last 2 years
My intention was to stir a new discussion about how the treatment of Eli by management has poisoned the culture and is irreparable while he is still present on the roster
I dont think the team culture can be fixed while Eli is treated differently then everyone else
Veering off into the blame game???
Dude, that was the whole point of our post and you starting this thread.
"Eli is the ROT!!!" but I'm not blaming him.
Jesus.
Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of Taylor's...but with his mobility and ball security I think he'd be a good fit in an offense designed to get the ball out quickly to Barkley, Engram, and Tate. Better fit than Eli, anyway. And that $13.5M would have covered, as an example: Weddle (safety), Ty Nsekhe (right tackle), Deonne Bucannon (SS/ILB), and JJ Nelson (deep threat WR).
You can go on Spotrac's free agent page and play that game all day, and of course you never know who would be willing to sign where. The point is that that additional $13.5M gives you options you wouldn't otherwise have had.
Enough with this bullshit of a mobile QB. Since the 1999 Super Bowl there has been only 2 mobile QB’s that have won the Super Bowl, Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers. Only 2, and I would not exactly call Rodgers a mobile QB. Yet you would have rathered signed T. Taylor. The trenches win games and a solid QB. I really hope Eli sticks it to us good and has an awesome year. Then this place will implode, sign him again or not. It is my hope for the Giants and our fans this happens. Then maybe Eli will be left alone. Season can not get here fast enough so we can see more of the plan by DG.
No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
I agree - they want to win games. But they want to do that with Eli because they know he has enough appeal to keep a fairly large portion of their customer base happy.
Seriously...
Leaving out Mara is a serious oversight.
Quote:
Of all available options, tell me who you think would lead the Giants to the SB this upcoming season. Since you get crickets when you ask if people believe that Eli could (and for the record, I think that it is unlikely that he will), you must have an alternative that you think could. (I know that you don't want us to, but just go with the hypothetical).
The object with this team shouldn't be the SB. It should accepting the probability that Eli is no longer a SB winning QB; and start a process to see who Eli's successor is - Lauletta, a rookie QB, a player like Rosen via trade, etc.
If you think about it, this team is setting a decent stage to allow for that audition - an improved OL, a terrific young RB, a play-making TE, and a dependable veteran slot guy in Tate.
Unfortunately this FO just can't see the value in that...
Well, the object for them is to always win so they have decided upon a two-pronged way to move forward (win as much as possible while rebuilding). Agree or disagree.
I don't disagree that they are setting a great stage. But that implies that the stage wasn't so great before. That's where some people think that some of the criticisms (or blame) of ELi are unfair. Personally, I can sympathize with that and I am actually interested in seeing how he performs under better than horrid conditions. SO, to some extent I am excited to see him play this year.
OTOH, I recognize that he's pretty much at the end of his career and that we need to transition forward. Where I really disagree with folks is that I strongly believe that setting that stage was the highest priority for building a SB winning team in the future (let's at least agree that winning a SB at some point is a laudable goal and accomplishment, yes?). If I have the best complete team, then I'm okay with filling in the best QB at a later point if necessary. SO, I really support and am still ecstatic with the Barkley pick, eschewing the QB options. Likewise, I am extremely hopeful that they will use every high pick, because the holes are so many and the draft so defensively strong, to better the team as opposed to taking a JAG or short (and likely short-term) QB high or trading valuable asset (even a 2nd round pick) for an iffy, likely very very short-term QB this year when just when year away is a plethora for quality candidates. I think by next year tat this time, with this full draft and with a boatload of cap space, we will be in outstanding position as a team and will just need that final piece at QB.
Since that's my approach, I'm on the fence with Eli, not because I need to audition Lauletta...I'm almost 100% certain they know what they have in Lauletta by this point...but that I think him playing will facilitate us getting closer to the draft pick we want. I don't actually feel we need to be all that close to get one of the candidates but, even so, I would trade my whole draft next year to move up to get the one I want. So, I would be okay with cutting ELi, playing Lauletta but, like I said, for enjoyment of the upcoming season I am also excited to see what Eli can do under fair conditions. And, again I emphasize, I know that we are only talking about one single year. And then he's gone.
Quote:
In comment 14347436 christian said:
Quote:
There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
So if that's the case Britt, and let's say management does in fact view Manning as a placeholder:
1) is it wise to pay the placeholder 23M against any cheaper alternative?
2) if management doesn't pick a QB in this draft, should Manning return in 2020 and at what salary?
3) if management selects a QB, are they prepared to sit Manning as soon as the rookie is ready to function?
Quote:
In comment 14347452 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14347436 christian said:
Quote:
There are a few variables that seemingly get dodged in this conversation:
- As he is and will be (say over 2 years), is Manning good enough, all things equal to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster (say this and next year), will this be a roster that can compliment current Manning in such away to win a championship?
- With the current trajectory of the roster, is QB one of the positions where an upgrade in performance could get the Giants closer to championship level?
What I see frankly is management and a lot of fans trying to construct a story around Manning that gets the team north of the dumpster.
As I fan, I don't care much about Manning retiring on a marginally better team for his legacy. All I care about is getting on a championship-level path ASAP.
Manning might not be as bad as his performance has indicated and much of it is not his fault. But is he the guy to build the next champion around?
Crucial question, and a difficult one to answer in the affirmative for anyone that supports the current decision making regarding the QB position.
This is what I was talking about doing concurrently.
Why can't Manning be the placeholder while the roster is built up around him, making the situation for a rookie that much better when he is plugged in?
So if that's the case Britt, and let's say management does in fact view Manning as a placeholder:
1) is it wise to pay the placeholder 23M against any cheaper alternative?
2) if management doesn't pick a QB in this draft, should Manning return in 2020 and at what salary?
3) if management selects a QB, are they prepared to sit Manning as soon as the rookie is ready to function?
1. If they want the best option to win, and have an out at the end of the season with zero money on the books, then yes. Consider it a one year, 23 million dollar deal.
2. Tied to one. If they don't pick a QB at the end of the draft they can give a one year extension and get that cost down over the course of the two years, more "more in line to his level of play" as some have said (although another poster has pointed out that he's just average in pay among QB's right now).
3. How do I know? Depends on a lot of things, I guess. Are they winning? Is Manning a detriment? Is the rookie ready? Too many variable to forecast.
Quote:
No, I think they are trying to win games. It's not about marketing.
I agree - they want to win games. But they want to do that with Eli because they know he has enough appeal to keep a fairly large portion of their customer base happy.
I think that for *any* team, winning games *is* marketing. It is a business after all. I do think that they fell that Eli is the best of any available or potential option to help them achieve that next year. DOesn't mean that they are still doing other things to work for the future, including QB of the future. Just means that while they are doing he's the best to help them win. In all of these discussions, with the exception of Go Terp's push for Tyrod Taylor, which is purely based on salary and not W-L, there has not been a reasonable alternative suggested.
It's all tied to W-L...including the salary cap. There is a definite correlation between ROI and win-loss records. Eli isn't just a poor fit for this offense; he's a terrible value for his significant cost. His cost could cover several players at other positions for a team that has needs everywhere. If he were an elite player you could look the other way on that, but he isn't an elite player and there are viable alternatives that would be likely to play at his level for a fraction of the cost.
It's a good point, but it dismisses the very real possibility that his weaknesses and poor performances will be dismissed/excused by management, and/or his good moments will be amplified.
It's all tied to W-L...including the salary cap. There is a definite correlation between ROI and win-loss records. Eli isn't just a poor fit for this offense; he's a terrible value for his significant cost. His cost could cover several players at other positions for a team that has needs everywhere. If he were an elite player you could look the other way on that, but he isn't an elite player and there are viable alternatives that would be likely to play at his level for a fraction of the cost.
I disagree with you that the cost for this season is an issue. I know that you listed names where the 17M - the cost of his replacement (8M for Taylor was mentioned)...say, 9M could be spent, but there is no evidence at all that they wre interested in spending it on those or any other names but were unable to do so. If that were the case, I would expect that you would see them re-doing Jenkins or Zeitler or a couple other contracts where they could free up sufficient cash. It looks to me like they are not spending because they choose not to as opposed to them being unable to. And, if that's the case, then Eli's salary is irrelevant. ROI has no meaning here and his money is not useful unless it is used.
So would it be fair to say you think the Giants can win a championship with Manning?
Quote:
IS the problem this year will be a total shitshow and it will ultimately help the team get his replacement.
It's a good point, but it dismisses the very real possibility that his weaknesses and poor performances will be dismissed/excused by management, and/or his good moments will be amplified.
True. No one gains though by bashing Eli. My point was though that if this year is a shit show and Eli is the QB, the Giants record would be bad and it would help get Eli's replacement by having a good 2020 draft pick as a result of the shit show
That is not an insignificant number, and could have been used to buy some real assets to help in 2019. And again, I'd argue Taylor is a better fit for Shurmur's offense. Eli is, frankly, a terrible fit for this offense.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
That is not an insignificant number, and could have been used to buy some real assets to help in 2019. And again, I'd argue Taylor is a better fit for Shurmur's offense. Eli is, frankly, a terrible fit for this offense.
Again I would argue that even at that number, they could free it up elsewhere now if they wanted to buy those assets. But they haven't. To me, that says Eli's money is not burdensome. On, Taylor, I'll just say that I have a btter opinion of ELi's (current) ability than you do.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
I think that for *any* team, winning games *is* marketing. It is a business after all. I do think that they fell that Eli is the best of any available or potential option to help them achieve that next year. DOesn't mean that they are still doing other things to work for the future, including QB of the future. Just means that while they are doing he's the best to help them win. In all of these discussions, with the exception of Go Terp's push for Tyrod Taylor, which is purely based on salary and not W-L, there has not been a reasonable alternative suggested.
I have given alternatives. As usual I will get killed for this, which is fine because most people here don't watch other games, but I think trading for Jeff Driskel would be a very smart move. He's only at $800K-ish and showed very well filling in for Dalton last year. He's only 26, has a terrific arm, can really move and he's got live game experience. So at the very least it's a nice stop-gap. But, but if he hits, well we last landed a nice young player who fits the bill of the ideal QB Shurmur craves for his offense...
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
I don't think that Eli will be here in 2020 regardless, so I think that part of your fear is unfounded. I also think that next year is so flush that it still wouldn't be an issue as far as being able to reach a QB. Regardless, I would pretty much do a Mike Lynn trade to move up to get one, so I'm not bothered. We would otherwise be in good position to go the FA router in lieu of a draft for a year (or two) because we are going to be flush next year.
The main thing though is...what is the worth of being in the playoffs? Philosophically, do you trade damaging your chance to solidify your future (by getting a better draft pick) by making the playoffs and even a shot at the SB? I think I would; it's why they play (and I watch) the games after all.
Quote:
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
2. Too many people are concerned with winning this year, just like last year. Those of us that want to move on (again) don't give a shit how well the team does. This team needs to focus on the long term.
3. "What QB could be better as a placeholder?" Again, it doesn't matter. This team is not going to the playoffs next year, and any win they get makes it harder to get a QB like Fromm in the next draft.
Quote:
In comment 14347947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
When is your sabbatical due?
Such evidence is unlikely to ever exist. We won't be hearing Gettleman report that he would have liked to have signed _______, but didn't even bother attempting to do so because of Eli's salary.
Regardless, that it is very funny.
Sticking with the "Dilfered" narrative, eh?
Embarrassing.
Wow, Less is a very appropriate name for you.
If Eli is the starting QB, I will root like hell for them to win a SB.
But the realist in me will not allow me to root for the team to take this approach to the most important position on the football field.
It's lunacy to run him out there and expect different results this time.
Quote:
In comment 14347947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Here's my bigger fear - actually winning with Eli.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
Dude..stop. If you are upset with 10-6 and the playoffs in 2019 find something else to do other than follow The Giants. I think Eli is much closer to toast than not...I often agree with you but with this take, you lose me completely.
I knew that would be misread. I'm not upset by the winning and the chance for some enjoyment in the short-term. I fear the ramification of that winning by the front office and them getting this false hope - in my eyes - that Eli is still the solution at QB.
Let's be honest - in the last decade there isn't a pattern of winning in successive seasons with this QB. So why we would think he could suddenly reverse that at 39 is not what I would call a strong, winning bet.
I think Eli is at the end of a steep decline but would never try to make the argument that winning with him could ever be bad.
Neither passes the smell test. Yet this conversation is largely dominated by those who try to shout down those in the middle.
Very well said.
Count me in the middle. Eli has been a problem - but he is not the problem.
Eli is a good player capable of greatness when surrounded by a better cast. No doubt the o-line has been an issue. But Eli has not elevated the team over that short coming.
You guys seriously don't see that this is classic trolling behavior?
Quote:
You can churn through GMs coaches coordinators and surrounding linemen and talent but Eli has and is the issue. I’m sure the Eli Fanboynistas will blame a dearth of receiving talent on the offense’s poor performance this year. Eli Dilfered his two Super Bowls and the Giants held on to him and overpaid him five years too long.
You guys seriously don't see that this is classic trolling behavior?
Of course.
Let's say we go 10-6 with Eli at the helm. A classic outhouse to near penthouse NFL turnaround in this cap era.
And let's say we actually earn a wild card spot, even win a playoff game. But ultimately we are exposed for having too many holes and get rolled by a better team.
Then we are drafting at the bottom third of the next draft. And any hope of grabbing one of these supposed great QBs/class'20 is greatly diminished - absent selling off key future draft assets to move up.
Furthermore, and this is where it just becomes "Groundhog Day", a winning season puts Jints Central back in the same spot - "...maybe Eli does have something left? I guess we rev it up yet again..."
Now the 39 year old QB is put back in the saddle - because you know damn well that will be the outcome - and the chase is back on. So we delay, yet again, another year to transition to the heir apparent. And I am backing asking the same question 365 days from now - do we really think we can win another SB with Eli?
This what if is weird to me. Why would I be scared of a winning season, a playoff win, or even a potential SB. I would welcome it and smile the whole way. since 2000 other than the patriots the giants have been to 3 SBs. not many teams with supposedly better QBs, better defenses, better coacches, and with better records can make that claim. have we gone long strectches as a bad team, yes. But we still made it to 3 SBs and are 2/3 in the last 19 years. think about that for a moment.
Of course I would take the silverware, but I think all of that would require overcoming long, long odds.
We have a GM that walked into a mess, a recycled head coach, a team with material gaps on both sides of the ball, and the aging QB.
Does that feel stable to you to produce such an outcome?
I think you made a mistake framing it the way you did. If we go 10-6 and WIN a playoff game...Full stop. AWESOME SAUCE! That would mean the team is decent. DG draft was solid and the FA signings worked out. Unless we had some kind of freakish turnover +XX ratio or we win all our close games that would go back to the mean the following year(McAdoo). You do yourself no favors making this point. Just my opinion.
I think Eli is at the end of a steep decline but would never try to make the argument that winning with him could ever be bad.
Fair enough.
I always look through the lens of what if is going to take to build a consistent winner for consecutive years. Not these one-offs.
All your "suggestions" are variations of " hey take a chance how could it be worse?" or "maybe its Darnold but that will take a few years to find out"
As reasoning goes this kind of swirl does not even make it to a hypothetical syllogism
I said it before the last two seasons - any season we go into with him as the starting quarterback is a lost season. Everything I've seen since leaves me just as convinced heading into this season.
But the problem isn't Eli, it's ownership.
Quote:
Very well said, wish I had written it myself.
The number of threads and comments here about how this or that move makes Eli Manning FEEL are unbelievable.
This is the NFL. For good and for bad, the mission is "Just win, baby".
FFS, whats up with people named Jim!!!
Why do you ask?
All your "suggestions" are variations of " hey take a chance how could it be worse?" or "maybe its Darnold but that will take a few years to find out"
As reasoning goes this kind of swirl does not even make it to a hypothetical syllogism
I'm not looking to get better in the short term (w/Eli). I'm trying to find the best solution to get better in the long term. And sustain that over time.
And to do that, IMV, we need to get younger on both sides of the ball; and much younger and more mobile at QB.
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
Better lines while he learns?
Younger lines for the sake of it?
Some practical mix of the two on the lines with a lean towards younger as long as better is soon to come?
Until we have one...is it your recommendation to drop the Qb we have first?
Is Jints Central suddenly smart if they drop all QBs and hope for a better one that's younger?
Or are they stupid to drop the one we do have ( no matter what his name) and go into the draft with no one?
Rosen. Admittedly I don't know for certain that he's available, though it's not a huge leap of logic to think he is. If he's available he's a better option for the Giants in 2019 than Eli.