Eli Manning IS the Problem. He is the cloud. He is the rot.
In the aftermath of the Odell Beckham trade, BBI seemed to expel a collective sign of relief that the “cloud” hanging over the Giants has passed and that there had been a “rot” that set in for a culture of accepting losing.
It is my contention that the “cloud” hanging over this organization is Eli and the “rot” that set in began when the New York Giants began worrying about things other than winning and putting Eli Mannings concerns and needs above everyone else’s.
It is not my contention to argue about the Beckham trade as it’s possible to make the right move for the wrong reasons. The Beckham trade is irrelevant to this argument and I am not arguing for or against that trade.
One of the things that struck me during the BBI aftermath was a poster who told the story of the Bill Parcells and Phil Simms sideline fight. The new detail was that this was over a single play call In a game that they were winning big. I have also heard Phil Simms tell a similar story about Parcells and there was a constant theme of Parcells placing winning above all else and you create that environment by holding everyone accountable and placing no one player beyond that and never resting on accolades.
The New York Giants have placed Eli Manning above everyone else and he is treated differently and the Giants feel Eli is maybe owed something for winning the two Super Bowls.
A few examples stand out -
The Giants hired Ben McAdoo largely on “continuity” with the “quarterback” as said by John Mara at the opening press conference. The Giants at that point had 3 non-playoff years, had already suffered through the 2013 debacle that saw Mara call for an entire new offense and system and the promotion of a young OC with very limited success was all about Eli’s familiarity with the system and the progression of the offense numbers in the 2 years from bottoming out in 2013. Ignored was the fact that it was due to the arrival of Odell and that it never reached the heights of the Gilbride offense.
Despite the fact that the Giants were losing, the comfortableness of their 35 year old QB was what made the Head Coaching decision.
This was the time to overhaul the culture of a losing team that had grown comfortable. Instead the message was clear- Eli was above the rest of the Giants and not part of the losing.
Tom Coughlin final press conference kinda summed up this by attitude saying “Eli, it’s not you. it’s us”. This attitude has infected the organization and its fan base. Eli was absolved from any connection to the results of the team he leads
Contract wise the Giants continued to give Eli a free pass despite the losing and treat him as the one of the elite in the game. The Giants never even had a contentious negotiation with him as they gave a 4-year extension in the offseason of 2015 that made him the #3 paid in the NFL just behind Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson by under a million per season. As a bonus, the Giants gave Eli a “no trade” clause just to ensure his status.
The point of no return was reached when Eli was benched for Geno Smith. In the heat of the insulting benching for Geno Smith (and it was insulting and I’m not defending that decision) what was lost on everyone was how far the Giants had gone in putting Eli above the team and how far Eli had gone as well.
Looking at the situation objectively, right or wrong the Head Coach informed the Player of a new plan for his playing time. The Player rejected this plan and instead was benched by his Head Coach. The Player holds a media session answering all manners of questions about how things occurred and why
Removing the names from the situation allows us to see more clearly. Only once you assign pre-earned status to the situation does it become acceptable for the Player to even reject this plan because it is beneath him.
Then the Player issues a statement and holds a media session and answers media questions with uncharacteristic emotion and honesty about the details of its handling.
There are a lot of players names I can insert in those spots above that would have everyone screaming for their heads.
Then what occurs is the Head Coach and General Manager are fired one game after this decision and the Player is reinstated to his starting position.
What is the message to the team? Don’t mess with Eli Manning. He is above you. Even the the GM and the HC.
It strikes me that the only time I’ve ever seen Eli Manning get emotional after any of the multitudes of losing seasons or games is after his benching. I’ve never seen him express any but the most basic vague sense of frustration. Type in Google “Eli Manning emotional” and you will only get his benching.
It also strikes me that Eli gave details about his benching. How he was told, who told him, what he was told and even talked about the streak and the thinking behind the McAdoo plan. He gave His feelings and his thoughts as he cried in front of the media and his teammates in the locker room. This was the only time I can recall him doing this. This certainly wasn’t his response to support his teammates who might have done the similar. Then Eli would talk about the need to keep things “in-house” so they don’t cause “distractions”.
Why do we know more details about this decision than virtually any other Giants decision? Eli made it so and created a massive media controversy out of it. What Manning could have done was say nothing about any of that. He was benched. Accept that your head coach chose to bench you. Manning did not. He was saying he was accepting but his actions betrayed that. There’s a scenario that could have existed where all these details were never made public and all we ever knew that was McAdoo benched Eli for Geno and eventually Webb as they stated back then was the plan when the gIants were 2-7.
I would have to say in almost all situations from any other player, the above scenario would be viewed as unacceptable.
Lets be honest, Eli threw McAdoo under an uncessary bus. It was Eli he brought up the Streak and that he thought it was morally or ethically unacceptable to play football that way. That’s a judgement on your Head Coach, The reason Eli brought it up was to explain why he didn’t accept his benching,
We have our GM who cited one game from 2018 as evidence that Eli still has “it” and this year has cited only the second half of the season as evidence. Interesting, I wonder what the other players on the roster think of this evaluation and if they are held to the same lax standards and not all 16 games.
The cloud over this organization is Eli Manning. The rot is an underperforming and overpaid player who has consistently been treated above everyone else. He has been paid more than any player in NFL history and never had even an ounce of issues getting all of that money from ownership. He has barely missed a snap of playing time in his career (and I don’t mean that in an Iron Man positive streak way but in a how has he never been pulled from a game for poor play until this season) or had a viable backup drafted that could challenge him for reps and playing time. Both McAdoos hiring and firing as Head Coach were tied to his relationship to Eli.
Now we see Odell Beckham traded and as he is going out the door we are getting the leaks. The perception of Odell being traded is that he ran afoul of Eli by getting upset at his play and through to the Lil Wayne interview where his primary offense was that he didn’t support or defend Eli. It even seems a lot of people have accepted that others like Sterling Shepherd, who were “corrupted” by Odell will soon follow.
The cloud remains.
Do we really believe that the players don’t see the above. They don’t know we have an overpaid, underperforming player at the most important position? That he has no problem getting, that he has no challenges to his job or playing time? The GMs, HCs are fired and star players will get traded. That’s the cloud. That’s the rot. This is no longer a merit based team where every player is treated the same. Type in Eli Manning Frustrated into Google and you do not quotes from him being frustrated with losing but instead players being frustrated with his play.
And if you can’t see what is plainly obvious, then let’s look at big picture
Twitter › PaulHembo
Eli Manning since 2012
64 QB losses (most in NFL)
134 turnovers (most in NFL)
$131M cap hit (most in NFL)
Nice try with the misleading stats at the bottom. 1) What is more relevant is the last few years. 2) Why go back 9 years...how many QB's have started all games except one game in that time period you dumb f****
The timeframe for the stats are pretty clearly meant to be the time period since the last Super Bowl the Giants won. That seemed obvious, although apparently not to you. Maybe the OP isn't the dumb f***?
The more concrete the recommended actions the more obvious it is that there is high risk, no easy choices and it aint that simple being in charge of any complex organization with about 85 different coaching and playing ( plus practice squad) positions in a tightly balancd industry with an average length of service at 4 years.
Logically, there are about 60 personnel decisions per year.
Logically, there are 4 to 6 alternative people to fill each position.
The possibility of not making 10 "so far seems like" mistakes per year is zilch.
Debating other peoples mistakes is a way to pass time and avoid.
Its the leap to the operating assumption that is easy or obvious or malign/intent or ability that is strange to watch
But no team that is rebuilding or looking to replace veterans would sign him because he is 38 and the future is there. But if Brady decided to retire tomorrow.... I would wager that BB would have no problem hearing the availability of Eli.
Well what do you think the Redskins would have paid him vs. trading for Case Keenum, why not start there. That signing would have Redskins all over it.
Now I can do the hypothetical exercise of naming all the teams like the Redskins or Miami that could have easily signed him, or Jacksonville had he been available, but what's the point? He's not available, and he wasn't available. But there are teams out there where he is an upgrade.
The end.
The Giants are going to pay him $23 million dollars this year - so that is his worth - you are correct.
I guess it's not worth discussing how stupid it is to pay him that much money b/c I find it hard to believe that any team (even Washington) would be willing to do so.
You're only worth what people are willing to pay you - unless you play for the Giants - they are willing to pay way more than market value b/c 7 years ago he was good - and we should just deal with it...got it.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
I totally agree - you are right it's hard to compare since he is currently under contract.
My point is simply keeping Eli at the price they are keeping him at is a big part of the problem.
Not only do I believe that Eli is done - but paying him $23 million dollars (which is way above market value) is compounding the problem since it prohibits them from making other moves to improve the team around him in the rebuilding process.
So what you are saying is that a guy like Blake Bortles who got the AFc championship game and a division title in 2017 is better than Eli?
You want your opinion to go on record like that? At some point fans need to stop watching Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith and all these fucking shows on cable TV to learn the game. Its bad for your health.
Eli Manning is NOT the reason the team has stunk. He has been a contributor. Nothing more or nothing less. But with better personnel around him - he can still EASILy win in the NFL.
For christ sakes, Giants fans are the fucking worst.
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versus what the Giants agreed to pay him in the past. They are not operating under the same conditions. If they choose to keep him, and they do, then they are bound by the contract.
It would only be apples to apples if the Giants and everyone else competitively *and contemporaneously* bid and only the Giants offered to him that much money.
I totally agree - you are right it's hard to compare since he is currently under contract.
My point is simply keeping Eli at the price they are keeping him at is a big part of the problem.
Not only do I believe that Eli is done - but paying him $23 million dollars (which is way above market value) is compounding the problem since it prohibits them from making other moves to improve the team around him in the rebuilding process.
Name ONE move it prevented us from doing. Just one. And dont throw random names out there as if its a guarantee they would have been signed if we wanted them.
trading for Ogletree
Signing divs WR to a huge contract
Kareem Martin to a bad deal
Omameh to a terrible deal
Its didnt hamper us in 2016 when we spent out of our ass in getting defensive players.
Lets try and keep facts straight about the Giants. Throwing out lies just looks bad at this point.
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that grown men and woman (we'll I'm assuming their grown) have to a fading super-star that clearly can't win anymore in the NFL to be equally comical.
So what you are saying is that a guy like Blake Bortles who got the AFc championship game and a division title in 2017 is better than Eli?
You want your opinion to go on record like that? At some point fans need to stop watching Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith and all these fucking shows on cable TV to learn the game. Its bad for your health.
Eli Manning is NOT the reason the team has stunk. He has been a contributor. Nothing more or nothing less. But with better personnel around him - he can still EASILy win in the NFL.
For christ sakes, Giants fans are the fucking worst.
I love how you think that you can just say he can EASILY win game in the NFL and expect people to just buy that... Just b/c I'm not willing to just buy that bill of goods nor a bunch of other people doesn't make us the worst...I'm having a hard time following that line of thinking.
You are right - of course - I doubt it would net $17 million (is that right?)this year...maybe it would though - I am no cap expert.
It's also a little late to jump in that game - FA is essentially over for the top of the line guys.
Look at the title of this thread. Nothing more needs to be said.
A guy that has started every game (except one) for the Giants, though me being single at 24 and seeing him as a rookie in training camp, to being married, buying my first house, to having a puppy, my first child, my second child, buying my second house, losing an old dog that was a puppy when the guy was playing QB, to now that I'm a 43 year old man. Every Sunday, every fall, through all that I could put on my Eli jersey and root like hell for the Giants, make a Giants fan out of my wife and our two children. Pass down what was passed down to me as a kid in the 80's.
15 years is a looooong time. Yeah, I like the guy, I'm a fan. Tell me why that's bad again?
How old were you when Eli because QB?
I just want to pay someone less money to suck ass so I afford to pay for a nice young player that could help this team rebuild.
I have no clue who the Giants may or may not have been interested in had they had an extra $17 million to spend this offseason. The Giants were going to pay the man that money so they probably didn't even dip their toes in the high end OL, DL, DB market.
You're not all junior GM's, sportswriters, or analysts.
Again, our fan base is terrible.
I'm 40 - so I too went through almost every single life altering moment that you went through while rocking my #10 Eli jersey.
But it's not 2012 anymore - it's not even 2016. It's hard to explain to my 11 year old son why Eli just falls down when the DL from the Cowboys gets near him. Or why the Giants have not beaten the Eagles, in what feels like to him, his whole life. Or why I watch the games in November when as he says, "they don't matter anymore....again."
Maybe it makes me a cold-hearted SOB but I just want to win and Eli isn't going to just turn on his magic and be good again. I've fallen for the story line one to many times and I'm ready for change.
You're not all junior GM's, sportswriters, or analysts.
We're trying to understand why the front office does what it does. If you're going to just tell us about what a fan of Eli you are then you might as well add a 'Z' to your handle so it's easier to know you're someone whose posts aren't worth reading.
We're all fans of Eli's. If criticism of him bothers you then you're probably too sensitive.
Again, our fan base is terrible.
I love how my saying that he's terrible is bias - yet your saying that he can EASILY win games in the NFL is not.
So maybe I also have an understanding of what they are thinking.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
He has been the reason for their downfall the last two years. I mean its sad that people on this site have propped up guys like Blake Bortles, Macus Mariotta, Alex Smith, Mitch Trubisky, have made Goff an already HOF, Nick Foles, etcc.... as winners and Eli as a loser.
Just f'n weird.
So maybe I also have an understanding of what they are thinking.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
You've been pretty accurate in what they've been thinking, and what they've been thinking has usually led to more losing.
I can have an emotional fan attachment to a players, and still look at that player's status on the team realistically. Which I've clearly done.
The Giants can rebuild while trying to field a competitive roster.
The Giants can find a new QB while the current one is still playing.
I think the Giants are making QB decisions with a high degree of subjectivity and it's clouding their judgment.
Unless you think Jints Central is equivalent of emotional posters on a message board.
Dave Gettlemanz.
Well, I think jtgiants' recent post about being frustrated about the league/media/fanbase's perceptions of Eli indicates that yes, there is a contingent at Jints Central that emotional about him similar to posters here at BBI.
It wasn't "Eli can serve as the best option as he finishes his contract," it was "Eli is going to prove the haters wrong next year!" which sounds inspiring but also seems off for a professional team to operate.
He has been the reason for their downfall the last two years. I mean its sad that people on this site have propped up guys like Blake Bortles, Macus Mariotta, Alex Smith, Mitch Trubisky, have made Goff an already HOF, Nick Foles, etcc.... as winners and Eli as a loser.
Just f'n weird.
Eli didn't forget how to play QB.
Derek Jeter didn't forget how to play SS.
Messier didn't forget how to be a centerman.
Ewing didn't forget how to play C.
They lost to the undefeated Father Time - and there's no shame in that game.
It ain't personal.
I think the Giants are making QB decisions with a high degree of subjectivity and it's clouding their judgment.
I'll give Jints Central this...if they don't love a QB this year, no one will sell more tickets that's available than Eli Manning. And as much as I would like to believe that it's the FO's job to win games above all else...it's not. It's to sell tickets.
HAHAHAA - first time I every typed that, where did that phrase come from and who started it?
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If I came on here and never saw "Jints Central" again.
HAHAHAA - first time I every typed that, where did that phrase come from and who started it?
Our resident Redskins fan, bw in DC can't go a day on here without mentioning it at least once. It is used as as a slight when referring to the Giants brass.
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I’ve no issue with that. I had Stidham late in my mental mock.
And I’ve said here many times, that I would actually pick a QB in the mid to late rounds every single draft. Thats regardless of the age or tenure of my starter. That’s my lottery ticket and one day it would pay off. Nassib. Webb, Lauletta...I’m okay with them all. Just so long as you cut bait as soon as you know their ceiling.
Speaking my language now. I would draft a QB every year, too - somewhere. It's a very wise strategy because it will pay a dividend sooner or later. And you can never have enough quality at that position.
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and I'm starting to be annoyed with myself for getting roped into them time after time.
None of us can help it. I have talked myself into not posting about Eli numerous times. I read these threads like conversations with my childhood friends in a bar and then someone says something that hits a nerve and "They pull me back in" Is what it is Britt.
Pretty accurate description of how I feel about it, as well.
A guy that has started every game (except one) for the Giants, though me being single at 24 and seeing him as a rookie in training camp, to being married, buying my first house, to having a puppy, my first child, my second child, buying my second house, losing an old dog that was a puppy when the guy was playing QB, to now that I'm a 43 year old man. Every Sunday, every fall, through all that I could put on my Eli jersey and root like hell for the Giants, make a Giants fan out of my wife and our two children. Pass down what was passed down to me as a kid in the 80's.
15 years is a looooong time. Yeah, I like the guy, I'm a fan. Tell me why that's bad again?
How old were you when Eli because QB?
How the hell did you age 19 years over the course of Eli's 15 year career? Or do you age even faster than some fans think Eli does?
No, that’s John Clayton’s wife
Made my day in less than 15 words. Thanks.
There is no definitive answer to a lot this discussion - it's what makes it fun to debate.