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Upgrading top 4 needs via draft with high upside talent

Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 11:36 am
Based on the review of the current roster I would list Edge Rush,OT,CB and then WR (one to better compliment Tate) as the top 4 needs and if we want to Win now as DG and jtGiants has confirmed we would be well served to find potential instant starters at each of those positions. A tall task? Sure. But I think with some DG creativity it is doable. Here is one plan Ive laid out to grab guys all who have enough upside and refinement in their game to be productive as first year starters.

Reeses draft in 2007 helped propel us to a Super Bowl victory with our 1st round pick (Aaron Ross) or 2nd rd pick (Steve Smith), our 3rd (DT Jay Alford who flashed and had a big pressure of Brady in the Super Bowl), 5th round pick (Kevin Boss) and 7th round pick (Bradshaw) all playing key roles as rookies.

If we are able to pull off a similar strategy (not easy but there is some really deep talent this year) we could see a big improvement this year.


Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 11:37 am : link
#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.
I feel we need a NT and LB as well  
George from PA : 3/19/2019 11:42 am : link
I like Tomilson but he is not a NT in a 3-4.....and a LB that covers TE....with Witton and Ertz in division and side to side potential.....as 2 must, imo.

In addition to ER and RT.
I've seen a lot of mocks with Greedy dropping  
Bill L : 3/19/2019 11:43 am : link
I would bet that overall you'd do better by picking the best ER at #6 and picking Greedy at #17. If Greedy does get taken before that, then the next best CB is likely to be closer to Greedy than someone like Allen/Gary/Sweat (although I'm moving Sweat off or at least down because of his heart) is to Ferguson.
RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
MotownGIANTS : 3/19/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:
Quote:
#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.


Not bad but Beal is going to start opposite Janoris ... So we could do D front 7 twice. I am not opposed to it Since Jenkins is a cap casualty the yr after next however.
Ford is not lasting that long  
jeff57 : 3/19/2019 11:47 am : link
And Williams is not being drafted that high.
How can anyone  
madeinstars : 3/19/2019 11:47 am : link
make a top-something of needs on this team and not put QB at the top?
RE: How can anyone  
madeinstars : 3/19/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14347315 madeinstars said:
Quote:
make a top-something of needs on this team and not put QB at the top?


Never mind my dumb ass, didn't read the 'win now' thing. I still think we would need a better QB for that, but that's a more polarizing position on this board.
RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
M.S. : 3/19/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:
Quote:
#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.


Very interesting! Quick question: Do you worry about the competition that Jaylon Ferguson faced?
RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
allstarjim : 3/19/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:
Quote:
#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.


Ok I have several problems with your scenario. The first and foremost is that you are almost assuredly leaving a safer and higher-graded talent on the board at #6 overall. If you assume that Quinnen Williams, Bosa, and Josh Allen will go in the top 5, then you will have one of these players also available: Jonah Williams, Ed Oliver, Devin White, Rashan Gary. I'm listing four here because these guys are pretty close together and it depends on how you value them and their positions. To me, the best player of that group is Devin White. The Giants pick should be one of those players, though. And no, I do not consider Montez Sweat as in that tier, either.

The only guy that I would take over Devin White at #6 is Josh Allen if he were to somehow get to us.

So that's my criticism of your first pick.

As for your 2nd, Ferguson is too much of a stretch at #17 as well. I think Ferguson is going to go late first round, and again, I think there will be safer talent with as high or higher upside at #17. If he falls the guy I really want is Christian Wilkins. If he's not there, I think you have to consider Jeffery Simmons at #17, even with the ACL. He should be able to contribute this year, and his physical gifts are tremendous, he'd be in the conversation at #6 if he didn't have the injury or the flag on him.

And then you mentioned trading back into the first...but a 4th and a 6th isn't going to get that done. That's not enough compensation (there's a premium placed on trading back into the first round), and I don't think you trade up 5 spots for a RT, anyway. There's a decent enough chance Ford will be there at #37, and if he's not, there will be other good OL options instead.
RE: RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
SirYesSir : 3/19/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14347308 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:


Quote:



Not bad but Beal is going to start opposite Janoris ... So we could do D front 7 twice. I am not opposed to it Since Jenkins is a cap casualty the yr after next however.



Omg-nobody is ready to anoint Beal as a starter. It'd would be great if that develops, but the kid had issues and has barely made it through an nfl practice before hurting himself

RE: RE: RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
section125 : 3/19/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14347350 SirYesSir said:
Quote:
In comment 14347308 MotownGIANTS said:


Quote:


In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:


Quote:



Not bad but Beal is going to start opposite Janoris ... So we could do D front 7 twice. I am not opposed to it Since Jenkins is a cap casualty the yr after next however.




Omg-nobody is ready to anoint Beal as a starter. It'd would be great if that develops, but the kid had issues and has barely made it through an nfl practice before hurting himself


??? - he had a pre-existing shoulder problem and they knew it and probably why he went as a 3rd round pick.
Beal would be a upper echelon pick had he stayed in school(and not been injured). So what makes you think a draft pick this year would be better than a guy that spent the year studying tape at the pro-level?

As to the OP, NFW are the Giants taking a CB 1st round. DG has already said he needs to fix the line and fix the defense - specifically ER/OLB.
For me some combo of -  
gggggggmen : 3/19/2019 1:39 pm : link
For me some combo of -

@6 - Josh Allen / Quenien Williams / Devin White
@17 - Brian Burns / Montez Sweat / Andre Dilliard / Devin Bush
@37 - Jeffery Simmons / Greedy Williams / Cody Ford / Dalton Risner
Don't you know that Jenkins won't be on the roster on opening day.  
Reese's Pieces : 3/19/2019 1:46 pm : link
As the last of Reese's quality players, he must be purged like the others.

That is really bizarre how the Giants' rookie class of 2008, Ross, Steve Smith, Bossy, Alford and Bradshaw all contributed to the 2008-09 Super Bowl win and then, except for Bradshaw, they all disappeared off the face of the earth (or almost).

Alford sacks Brady on 2nd and ten with 25 seconds left.

Ross leading a tackle with separated shoulder, then running off in pain against Cowboys. ("He made the play, but then came sprinting off the field in pain.")

Smith two big catches in last minute of 1st half tying TD drive against Cowboys. The "forgotten" catch in the Super Bowl between Tyree and Burress.
Bossy big catches in both of those TD drives.

Corey Webster - another who had big playoffs

Steve Smith - another Giant who should have swallowed his pride and resigned with the Giants. No speed or height advantage.

Giants held Cowboys without touchdown in the 2nd half with Gibril Wilson and R.W. McQuarters in the backfield, joined by Pope.

Giants' offense went nowhere in 2nd half against Cowboys. R.W. McQuarters 35 yard punt return to Dallas 35 gave them one chance and they scored. Smith a key reception.

There difference with Romo and Manning.

Romo with superior players, supposedly, and Giants with bunch of practice squad players in backfield. No touchdown.
RE: I've seen a lot of mocks with Greedy dropping  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 3:43 pm : link
In comment 14347298 Bill L said:
Quote:
I would bet that overall you'd do better by picking the best ER at #6 and picking Greedy at #17. If Greedy does get taken before that, then the next best CB is likely to be closer to Greedy than someone like Allen/Gary/Sweat (although I'm moving Sweat off or at least down because of his heart) is to Ferguson.


I think Jaylon is latest going to go early 20s especially when listening to DaveTes podcast. He is one of those guys the media really hasnt caught up to but is well known by those that do this for a living.

I also think Greedy is being severely underrated. If no Sweat at 6 I think there is too much a drop off to take a Clelin Ferrel. Maybe a Burns but that high up Giants usually prefer a more rugged frame. Personally I would prefer a Greedy/Ferguson combo to Burns/Baker
RE: RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14347334 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:


Quote:


#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.



Very interesting! Quick question: Do you worry about the competition that Jaylon Ferguson faced?


In the smaller school guys you look for ridiculous production and you try to catch how quickly they explode on tape. Or you try to see how they perform vs higher levels of comp. I've seen enough explosion on tape (similar to when I saw Khalil Mack also from a smaller school)
RE: RE: RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14347350 SirYesSir said:
Quote:
In comment 14347308 MotownGIANTS said:


Quote:


In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:


Quote:



Not bad but Beal is going to start opposite Janoris ... So we could do D front 7 twice. I am not opposed to it Since Jenkins is a cap casualty the yr after next however.




Omg-nobody is ready to anoint Beal as a starter. It'd would be great if that develops, but the kid had issues and has barely made it through an nfl practice before hurting himself


To put all our eggs in the Beal basket would be playing with fire.

Not to say he won't eventually be good but 2nd CB is critical (as we saw up close and personal last year). I want an instant high level starter oppo JJ and Greedy is one of the few that could do it.
RE: RE: Here is an example draft that could achieve this  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 3:50 pm : link
In comment 14347343 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14347285 Pan-handler said:


Quote:


#6 Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed.



Ok I have several problems with your scenario. The first and foremost is that you are almost assuredly leaving a safer and higher-graded talent on the board at #6 overall. If you assume that Quinnen Williams, Bosa, and Josh Allen will go in the top 5, then you will have one of these players also available: Jonah Williams, Ed Oliver, Devin White, Rashan Gary. I'm listing four here because these guys are pretty close together and it depends on how you value them and their positions. To me, the best player of that group is Devin White. The Giants pick should be one of those players, though. And no, I do not consider Montez Sweat as in that tier, either.

The only guy that I would take over Devin White at #6 is Josh Allen if he were to somehow get to us.

So that's my criticism of your first pick.

As for your 2nd, Ferguson is too much of a stretch at #17 as well. I think Ferguson is going to go late first round, and again, I think there will be safer talent with as high or higher upside at #17. If he falls the guy I really want is Christian Wilkins. If he's not there, I think you have to consider Jeffery Simmons at #17, even with the ACL. He should be able to contribute this year, and his physical gifts are tremendous, he'd be in the conversation at #6 if he didn't have the injury or the flag on him.

And then you mentioned trading back into the first...but a 4th and a 6th isn't going to get that done. That's not enough compensation (there's a premium placed on trading back into the first round), and I don't think you trade up 5 spots for a RT, anyway. There's a decent enough chance Ford will be there at #37, and if he's not, there will be other good OL options instead.


Allstar we simply see the upsides of these players differently. TBH, Every guy I mentioned I think has a higher upside than the ones you like. There was a run on OL early in the 2nd last year. Ford could go quick.
RE: RE: How can anyone  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14347318 madeinstars said:
Quote:
In comment 14347315 madeinstars said:


Quote:


make a top-something of needs on this team and not put QB at the top?



Never mind my dumb ass, didn't read the 'win now' thing. I still think we would need a better QB for that, but that's a more polarizing position on this board.


Made you could be right but its hard to tell just how hard they are going to try in this draft when it sounds like they think its a weak class.
A CB at 6 isn’t happening  
WillVAB : 3/19/2019 7:10 pm : link
Nor should it. There’s too much talent available at the areas DG should be focusing on.
RE: A CB at 6 isn’t happening  
Pan-handler : 3/19/2019 9:38 pm : link
In comment 14348440 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Nor should it. There’s too much talent available at the areas DG should be focusing on.


There could be a solid run on top rush guys 2-5. Thats 4 rush guys in a row.

Giants may deem the top CB as better value over the 5th rush guy. And then go edge rush at 17.
Addended list  
Pan-handler : 3/21/2019 1:36 pm : link

#6 Haskins- Love is too evident after the pro-day and Giants don't really do smokescreen . As opposed to last year they've freely talked up QB. They may even trade up.

Back-up: Greedy Williams- I know this wont be a popular pick amongst BBI brethren but I see a rare potential shut down CB to pair with Janoris. He easily mirrors high caliber Receivers. Its impressive how he stays stuck to guys that are going be quality NFL wideouts. Erases them, Metcalf ,Ridley, etc. Bettchers D now greatly improved for ththe passing game with decent or better players at Safety and CB. Could easily go Sweat here if heart condition checks out.

#17- Jaylon Ferguson (or Greedy if he somehow drops) - Edge with more size than Burns at 6'5 260 and NCAA all time record for sacks. Giants have been quietly all over this guy for a while now. If Sweat at 6, Deandre Baker here another very good CB but not quite the cover shutdown potential that Greedy has.

#32- Cody Ford OT- Trade up with Pats for a 4th and 6th round pick. (Matches on value chart) monster tackle in the mold Gettleman likes , could lock down the RT position starting day 1. They've been sniffing around him the most. Those monster thighs and lower half combined with pretty good footwork have DG droooling.

#64- Hakeem Butler- Trade of Sterling Shepard to Patriots for their 2nd round pick. 6'6 228 and can juke smaller corners out of their pants with his route running. Ridiculous catch radius and consistently shows separation on tape from smaller CBs with his 4.48 speed. To be honest I dont know if he drops this far but here's to hoping.
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