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Top 6 players in this class?

allstarjim : 3/19/2019 1:40 pm
This is regardless of position.

Quinnen Williams: You might say Bosa, and that's fine, but Williams is so rare a player and provides the NFL en vogue interior pass rush, I have him as the #1 player in this draft.

Nick Bosa
Josh Allen
Devin White
Jonah Williams
Ed Oliver

These are my top six guys regardless of position. Here's the thing, you might have T.J. Hockenson or Josh Jacobs up there. Perhaps Rashan Gary or Montez Sweat. But this is probably going to be my top 6 players.

If 1 QB is taken in the top 5, and this board holds true, then I really wouldn't mind the Giants taking Jonah Williams, who can solidify the RT position and take over for Solder at LT in a year or two.

And truth be told, I really am not sold on the order of the last 3 players. But I do believe any of White, J. Williams, or Oliver at #6, any of those are justifiable, and all would be good picks.

I don't think any of the QBs are going to be as good at their position as these 6 are going to be at theirs, and so I hope at least one QB is taken in the top 5, and hopefully two, pushing a superb talent down to the Giants at #6.

A lot of people talking about trading up. There's only one guy I think is worth a trade up in this draft...and that's Quinnen Williams. Talk about a gold jacket guy. You want to make your defense better? Unblockable dude. But the best scenario is to let the talent come to you, because the talent is considerable.
other than the school he attended  
Pep22 : 3/19/2019 1:45 pm : link
I don't see what makes Jonah Williams better than Andre Dillard; to me the latter is a better athlete and has as least equal (advanced) technique
RE: other than the school he attended  
jeff57 : 3/19/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14347617 Pep22 said:
Quote:
I don't see what makes Jonah Williams better than Andre Dillard; to me the latter is a better athlete and has as least equal (advanced) technique


Dillard not a great run blocker.
Don't have a problem with that list  
jeff57 : 3/19/2019 1:48 pm : link
I'd drop J. Williams and include T.J. Hockenson.
Perhaps he's not, Pep  
allstarjim : 3/19/2019 1:53 pm : link
I just think Williams mirrors so well, has such good feet, and is an outstanding technician. He's just so much of a can't miss. His idol is Joe Thomas...that's a pretty good idol to try to emulate, right! He's also nasty in the run game, gets up to the 2nd level and looks to wipe out guys.

Nothing wrong with Andre Dillard, he's a fine OT prospect, definitely a starter right away.
RE: other than the school he attended  
Diver_Down : 3/19/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14347617 Pep22 said:
Quote:
I don't see what makes Jonah Williams better than Andre Dillard; to me the latter is a better athlete and has as least equal (advanced) technique


And I politely disagree. Dillard is a better athlete with a higher ceiling, but his floor is below Jonah. Jonah doesn't need a scholarship to get up to speed with the talent in the NFL. From day 1 in rookie mini-camp, he is teaching technique to Hal.

When it comes to Top 10 picks, many make the mistake of buying into the promise or a player's upside. But with the modern CBA not providing ample playing time and the need to be an immediate starter to take advantage of the rookie salary, a team can't afford to provide a year scholarship nurturing a player to reach their postential when they are a Top 10 pick. The 5th year option for Top 10 picks isn't really an option as it is equivalent to the Franchise Tag. A team needs the full 4 years of production before committing to a large extension. Outside of the Top 10, then the 5th year option becomes a legitimate option as it is calculated differently. So a team can gamble on upside/high ceiling while still not getting an immediate return of production the first year.
Jonah Williams is not in the top 6  
Jay on the Island : 3/19/2019 2:20 pm : link
Iíd replace him with Kyler Murray.
RE: other than the school he attended  
Tuckrule : 3/19/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14347617 Pep22 said:
Quote:
I don't see what makes Jonah Williams better than Andre Dillard; to me the latter is a better athlete and has as least equal (advanced) technique



If anyone watched the senior bowl. Sweat destroyed Dillard time and time again in the 1 on 1s. At times, Dillard didnít even get a hand on sweat. Iím not saying thatís the end all be all but it was a little concerning
Top 6 players in this class  
Amtoft : 3/19/2019 2:24 pm : link
Nick Bosa is #1. I just think he is amazing. I think he is slightly better as a 4-3 DE, but would still be amazing for us as an edge rusher
Quinnen Williams is #2. He is amazing an player, good guy, just a stud and would be a huge get for us. Probably the best fit for us in the draft if not for my next player.
Josh Allen is #3. The best fit for us in the draft. He is exactly the type of player we need and step in day one and be a stud.

There is a drop off after this. Not huge as this is a talented draft, but those 3 are just elite and sadly out of our reach without a trade.

The next group to me is Devin White, Greedy Williams, Ed Oliver, Jonah Williams, Montez Sweat, and Kyler Murray.

Since the top 3 will be gone and Murray is going #1 that leaves Devin White, Greedy Williams, Ed Oliver, Jonah Williams, and Montez Sweat for our pick. I just can't see them taking a CB this high or a LB like White or Jonah who is more of a LT or maybe OG than RT. So that leaves Ed Oliver and Montez Sweat. To me we need a rush edge rusher, but even more we need a 3-4 DE. Ed Oliver is a beast and would give us a very good front 3.



Jonah projects inside. Off the top of my head  
Tuckrule : 3/19/2019 2:26 pm : link
He isnít a top 6 player in the draft. Maybe top 15

Murray
Allen
Oliver
White
Bush
Haskins
Bosa
Gary
Wilkins
Taylor
Sweat
Ferrell

Then maybe Jonah, Ford or Dillard
Forgot Williams  
Tuckrule : 3/19/2019 2:26 pm : link
.
Good question  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2019 2:29 pm : link
I'd rank the top 3:

1. Williams (freak in every way, productive, probably only just scratching the surface)
2. Bosa (in part you're buying the 'Bosa' brand, but it worked with the Watt family)
3. Allen (the production in a top conference + solid combine stand apart)

The next 3 for me are more dependent on risk tolerance and perhaps slightly less positional value:

4. C. Wilkins ("high floor" & yet could be the next Fletcher Cox/Richard Seymour. Disruptive + productive against top comp).
5. D. White (every bit Roquan Smith, but more upside since he's only played LB for a few years and improved each year).
6. E. Oliver (athletically he's in the mold of the double digit sack interior lineman - which you can generally only count on 1 hand. Also seems to carry some risks with him though.)

Montez Sweat, Greedy Williams, Clelin Ferrell, and Brian Burns are all next up in the convo. I could see any of them being in play at 6 since they each have qualities/production at premium positions, I just like the others better because I think they are every down impact players against both run + pass from day 1.
and fyi - yes I view all the top non-qbs as defensive players  
Eric on Li : 3/19/2019 2:32 pm : link
bob mcginn's inital top 11 are all D other than Murray/Haskins. If I included QB's i'd probably rank Murray in the 2nd tier because I don't think he's a top tier QB. But even a 2nd tier QB prospect could trump everything else if he were a definitive fit for the team.
Let's be clear. The only reason Jonah projects inside  
Diver_Down : 3/19/2019 2:40 pm : link
is because his arm length is 1/8" shorter than the magical 34" cut-off that scouts assign. Nevermind that he has never played inside. While he isn't the ideal RT (his best position is LT), he would be a day 1 starter at RT for us (low bar to hurdle) but the goal should be to have the talent in the pipeline that supplants Nate off the roster.

While DG has made great strides in correcting the OL, we have Zeitler who is only under contract for 3 years. Hernandez has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal. Solder has 2 years remaining. Not even counting our center situation as it remains unsettled despite the vote of confidence for Halapio for this year.

We have $36M dedicated to OL, now. The first goal is to get younger and cheaper especially at LT. If Zeitler is still a stud in 3 years and Hernandez continues to improve, we might be looking to make our guard tandem the highest paid combined.
RE: Top 6 players in this class  
allstarjim : 3/19/2019 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14347730 Amtoft said:
Quote:
Nick Bosa is #1. I just think he is amazing. I think he is slightly better as a 4-3 DE, but would still be amazing for us as an edge rusher
Quinnen Williams is #2. He is amazing an player, good guy, just a stud and would be a huge get for us. Probably the best fit for us in the draft if not for my next player.
Josh Allen is #3. The best fit for us in the draft. He is exactly the type of player we need and step in day one and be a stud.

There is a drop off after this. Not huge as this is a talented draft, but those 3 are just elite and sadly out of our reach without a trade.

The next group to me is Devin White, Greedy Williams, Ed Oliver, Jonah Williams, Montez Sweat, and Kyler Murray.

Since the top 3 will be gone and Murray is going #1 that leaves Devin White, Greedy Williams, Ed Oliver, Jonah Williams, and Montez Sweat for our pick. I just can't see them taking a CB this high or a LB like White or Jonah who is more of a LT or maybe OG than RT. So that leaves Ed Oliver and Montez Sweat. To me we need a rush edge rusher, but even more we need a 3-4 DE. Ed Oliver is a beast and would give us a very good front 3.




I'd be happy with Oliver but I do think Sweat is not in this tier, and I'm not sure Greedy is, either.

I think people need to warm up to how good Jonah Williams is, and the fact that premium LTs routinely are taken in the top 10 picks.

The following are the tackles taken in the last 10 drafts all drafted inside the top 10 picks. And yes I'm including Scherff because he wasn't exclusively drafted to play OG, there was the thought he had versatility for OT.

McGlinchey #9 in 2018
Ronnie Stanley #6 in 2016
Jack Conklin #8 in 2016
Brandon Scherff #5 in 2015
Ereck Flowers #9 in 2015
Greg Robinson #2 in 2014
Jake Matthews #6 in 2014
Eric Fisher #1 in 2013
Luke Joeckel #2 in 2013
Lane Johnson #4 in 2013
Matt Kalil #4 in 2012
Tyron Smith #9 in 2011
Trent Williams #4 in 2010
Russell Okung #6 in 2010
Jason Smith #2 in 2009
Andre Smith #6 in 2009
Eugene Monroe #8 in 2009

That's 17 guys. Jonah Williams is a better OT prospect than many of those players. He is exceptionally well-coached, extremely sound, can play either OT spot, is a brilliant technician, and has nasty in him as well.

To me he has to be in the conversation at #6 even though I know the Giants would prefer to add to their defense.
Allstarjim's list  
mavric : 3/19/2019 2:43 pm : link
is identical to mine.

I don't think any of the QBs this year are top 10 material, let alone top 6.

I am hoping we snag Devin White who will be a perennial pro-bowler IMHO. And apart from Devin Bush falling to us at 17, there's precious little in terms of high ceiling linebackers after those two.

We will still be able to get a really good edge rusher at 17 or a top shelf OT or C, or hell, maybe Hockenson falls and get the best blocking TE to come out of college in the last couple of decades to solidify the OL further, and is also a tall, sure handed/good running TE.

I really hope we go with White at the 6 hole. It will be nice to finally have a scary LB corps
RE: Let's be clear. The only reason Jonah projects inside  
allstarjim : 3/19/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14347779 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
is because his arm length is 1/8" shorter than the magical 34" cut-off that scouts assign. Nevermind that he has never played inside. While he isn't the ideal RT (his best position is LT), he would be a day 1 starter at RT for us (low bar to hurdle) but the goal should be to have the talent in the pipeline that supplants Nate off the roster.

While DG has made great strides in correcting the OL, we have Zeitler who is only under contract for 3 years. Hernandez has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal. Solder has 2 years remaining. Not even counting our center situation as it remains unsettled despite the vote of confidence for Halapio for this year.

We have $36M dedicated to OL, now. The first goal is to get younger and cheaper especially at LT. If Zeitler is still a stud in 3 years and Hernandez continues to improve, we might be looking to make our guard tandem the highest paid combined.


^^ Yup. Jonah starts right away at RT and eventually supplants Solder at LT. Great post.
RE: RE: Let's be clear. The only reason Jonah projects inside  
Diver_Down : 3/19/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14347795 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14347779 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


is because his arm length is 1/8" shorter than the magical 34" cut-off that scouts assign. Nevermind that he has never played inside. While he isn't the ideal RT (his best position is LT), he would be a day 1 starter at RT for us (low bar to hurdle) but the goal should be to have the talent in the pipeline that supplants Nate off the roster.

While DG has made great strides in correcting the OL, we have Zeitler who is only under contract for 3 years. Hernandez has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal. Solder has 2 years remaining. Not even counting our center situation as it remains unsettled despite the vote of confidence for Halapio for this year.

We have $36M dedicated to OL, now. The first goal is to get younger and cheaper especially at LT. If Zeitler is still a stud in 3 years and Hernandez continues to improve, we might be looking to make our guard tandem the highest paid combined.



^^ Yup. Jonah starts right away at RT and eventually supplants Solder at LT. Great post.


And my comment re: Jonah teaching technique to an OL coach who has been in the business for decades might sound like hyperbole, but in Jonah's case, it is no exaggeration. His ceiling might not be as high as some of the others, but his floor begins where others hope to end their career.
I'd be shocked  
Giants_Rock : 3/19/2019 11:37 pm : link
If 2 QB's aren't selected before our pick.
Iíd be happier taking Jonah Williams at 6  
Jarvis : 3/20/2019 12:16 am : link
And getting Brian Burns at 17 (if he is there).

I think Burns is every bit as talented as Sweat. He is a true junior who was very productive. He moves much better in space than Sweat. He is lighter, but he compares favorably to where Allen was when he was a junior.

As mentioned above, Jonah Williams becomes an anchor on our line.
RE: Let's be clear. The only reason Jonah projects inside  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/20/2019 12:47 am : link
In comment 14347779 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
is because his arm length is 1/8" shorter than the magical 34" cut-off that scouts assign. Nevermind that he has never played inside. While he isn't the ideal RT (his best position is LT), he would be a day 1 starter at RT for us (low bar to hurdle) but the goal should be to have the talent in the pipeline that supplants Nate off the roster.

While DG has made great strides in correcting the OL, we have Zeitler who is only under contract for 3 years. Hernandez has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal. Solder has 2 years remaining. Not even counting our center situation as it remains unsettled despite the vote of confidence for Halapio for this year.

We have $36M dedicated to OL, now. The first goal is to get younger and cheaper especially at LT. If Zeitler is still a stud in 3 years and Hernandez continues to improve, we might be looking to make our guard tandem the highest paid combined.


The questions I have about Jonah Williams are "is he another over-rated 'Bama OL like Chance Warmack, DJ Fluker, Carpenter, etc? When's the last time a 'Bama OL taken in the first round lived up to his selection?

I ask this - I know it's stupid in a way - because it seem a lot of 'Bama players under-perform in the NFl, and I wonder if it doesn't relate to the very tight and strict structure than Saban runs down there, that can't be duplicated with pro athletes with union representation. They leave Bama, and they don't get better as professionals because the don't handle the looser NFL structure responsibly?

Having said that, J. Williams seems like a very, very self motivated dude, but is he batter than Dalton Risner or Cody Ford? By how much? I'm really being lazy this year to answer these questions myself by film study... Partly laziness, and partly because I;ve come to the point that I feel very, very few players jump off the screen (like a Saquon Barkley type) and for everyone else the question is "who wants it more?"

JPP had oodles of talent; he didn't quite want it enough. That's the question I want to know before drafting someone, and I can't get that from watching tape.
DD, allstarjim  
BlueLou'sBack : 3/20/2019 12:51 am : link
nice discussion about Jonah Williams. Well done.
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